S01.E04: The Crossing

[tessaray]

Release Date: January 9, 2022

The group faces the harrowing task of crossing the river with their wagons and supplies; Thomas and Noemi grow closer.

[NeenerNeener]

I'm annoyed that they haven't dropped this episode yet. My Sunday morning ritual is blood pressure pill, turn on tv, watch 1883.

ETA at 3:25 pm: I've killed the time (most of the day, actually) watching Vigil on Peacock. Paramount+ still hasn't dropped episode 4 of 1883.

Edited January 2, 2022 by NeenerNeener

[joliefaire]

About 20 minutes ago, Lamonica Garrett posted that tonight will be just a behind-the-scenes clip and that episode 4 will air next Sunday.  Bummer.

 

 

[NeenerNeener]

I watched the behind-the-scenes thing this morning. Sheridan actually put the whole cast through cowboy boot camp and taught them to ride horses and drive wagons. According to the special the #1 cause of death on these wagon trains back in the 1880s was (literally) falling off the wagon and getting run over. 

[mojoween]

I want to go to cowboy camp.  And then I would steal one of those wagons because I’ve always wanted one.

Faith made me laugh.  “It’s fuckin’ awesome.  Can I say that?  I just did.”

I’m sad that I will never find any Easter eggs, but I am enjoying 1883 just the same.

[Haleth]

Oooh. I was frustrated that I haven’t been able to  find epi 4 on Paramount+ yet. Next Sunday. Ok. 

[NeenerNeener]

OK, so we finally got episode 4. I haven't paid that much attention to the pioneers so I don't know which ones made it and which ones didn't. I now see the logic in my friend Robin selling all her furniture right before she moves, though. She must have been a pioneer who had to leave it all on the riverbank in a previous life.

So, did the daughter lose her V card to the cowboy when Mom and Dad were across the river? I wonder if that's what it was supposed to mean when they let her sleep late.

[LadyIrony]

32 minutes ago, NeenerNeener said:

OK, so we finally got episode 4. I haven't paid that much attention to the pioneers so I don't know which ones made it and which ones didn't. I now see the logic in my friend Robin selling all her furniture right before she moves, though. She must have been a pioneer who had to leave it all on the riverbank in a previous life.

So, did the daughter lose her V card to the cowboy when Mom and Dad were across the river? I wonder if that's what it was supposed to mean when they let her sleep late.

I know the German immigrants are supposed to be naïve but surely not many of these pioneers came over with so much furniture? That would have cost so much to ship and the ships themselves weren't that big either. Factor in transporting it all across a country they nothing about. It just strikes me as really odd. 

I think if I were to uproot like that I would just sell it all rather than organize movers too. 

[wlk68]

In my head, I know that the journey was hard for the pioneers, Unbelievably so. We all know that. But I feel like this is the first time it's ever accurately been shown on television just how truly difficult (and dangerous) it was. My imagination didn't even come close, and they haven't even left Texas yet. 

Cutting the river crossing with Elsa's playing was well done. Loved Ennis' comment "Don't you know any happy ones?" :)  

Edited January 9, 2022 by wlk68

[joliefaire]

Illegal to swim?  Illegal to even be in a river?  Does anyone know if this was historically accurate, that these Germans (or Dutch, as I've seen them described) came from someplace where it was illegal to swim?  If so, if its accurate, what the hell kind of law was that, I mean, what for?  Anybody got the actual facts on that issue?

[LadyIrony]

53 minutes ago, joliefaire said:

Illegal to swim?  Illegal to even be in a river?  Does anyone know if this was historically accurate, that these Germans (or Dutch, as I've seen them described) came from someplace where it was illegal to swim?  If so, if its accurate, what the hell kind of law was that, I mean, what for?  Anybody got the actual facts on that issue?

I'm bored and curious so am willing to take some leaps here and happy to stand corrected if someone knows better. 

I found this https://www.emissourian.com/some-of-the-key-reasons-why-centuries-ago-germans-immigrated-to-america/article_6c3fe3e5-b338-5c22-bdb9-6a1ca257bae8.html 

Some reasons why the left Germany below, putting it Spoiler to reduce post size. With all of those restrictions not being able to swim starts looking plausible. 

Spoiler

 

1. The feudal system lasted well into the 19th century. In many cases citizens could not marry, travel, relocate or emigrate without permission of their prince and later civil authority.

2. In the early 1800s, in the poor areas of south and central Germany, restrictions were put on marriages in an attempt to limit growth because of overpopulation and an economic depression.

3. Struggle for power and influence between Prussia and Austria continued until 1871, with Prussia gaining more control of independent states. The result was an unstable political climate.

4. Permitted religions were determined by the ruling prince. These religious restrictions caused some to leave for religious convictions.

5. Ordinary citizens were burdened by a system of rules and law established by guilds, aristocracy, churches and government.

6. After the Napoleonic Wars ended in 1815, a flood of foreign imports penetrated the German market making it hard for the German industry to compete.

7. Ordinary citizens were unable to borrow money to buy land in Germany until after 1850.

8. Farms became so small that they were unable to sustain families.

9. The population had grown so large that it became dependent on the potato as a major food source. In 1840 a potato blight led to famine.

10. Industrialization wiped out home industries such as spinning, weaving, etc.

11. Young men were compelled to serve in the German army. Many emigrated illegally to escape this mandate.

12. High taxes to pay for governmental infrastructure and military expenditures.

13. By the 1840s societal classes became more prevalent. The middle class was committed to liberal principles, the working class to working/living reforms and the ruling/nobility class to maintaining the status quo.

14. Some communities, to try and get rid of the underprivileged, paid for their passage cost in exchange for the individual giving up all citizenship rights and promising not to return.

15. Gottfried Duden’s book on his life in Missouri.

16. Emigration societies started in Germany.

 

They would be German's but that ended up becoming corrupted to Dutch and notably Pennsylvania Dutch. Something I have heard before. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_Dutch

Also taking a leap and thinking these people are fleeing persecution due to their religion. Haven't been able to find anything on laws making it illegal to swim in Germany or Europe in general during that time. Not sure if the writers are just trying to explain why these people are so ill prepared for everything. I still think if you are going to sail across the world to start a new life than you would just embrace anything new you found and make the most of it?

But these German's do seem rather uptight which is why I believe they are fleeing due to their religion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptism

Edited January 9, 2022 by LadyIrony

[wlk68]

The pioneers appear to be a bit of mishmash. Not just German peasants but Romani (Gypsies) and the man who was told to leave his piano behind sounded like he was speaking Yiddish so maybe Jews as well? All people who were discriminated against.  

[ShortyMac]

The woman and man Elsa traded with said the pants were pantalone, is probably Italian. 
 

In hindsight, the Duttons crossing at night when the river was lower was smart. The true danger of getting everyone across the river was horrifying. Margaret having to strip off her heavier layers so she wouldn’t drown if she fell off her horse, her not being able to save a child/children from drowning. All the pioneers had was a rope to help, they couldn’t swim. Heartbreaking. 
 

You’re telling me that horses drug a heavy piano around for weeks? I don’t think that’s realistic. 
 

To be honest, I was kind of bored with Elsa this week. I do like the narration, though. 
 

Thomas is becoming one of my favorite characters. I enjoy the back and forth with Shea. 

[toodywoody]

I think I held my breath the whole time they were crossing with the wagon. 

This made me cry, and realize how unprepared they were. I knew it, but these people who thought they were seeking a better life. They lost so much to try to have that. The ones that made it and began a new life and new beginning, they paid a steep price. They truly were pioneers. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by toodywoody

[LadyIrony]

9 hours ago, ShortyMac said:

The woman and man Elsa traded with said the pants were pantalone, is probably Italian. 
 

In hindsight, the Duttons crossing at night when the river was lower was smart. The true danger of getting everyone across the river was horrifying. Margaret having to strip off her heavier layers so she wouldn’t drown if she fell off her horse, her not being able to save a child/children from drowning. All the pioneers had was a rope to help, they couldn’t swim. Heartbreaking. 
 

You’re telling me that horses drug a heavy piano around for weeks? I don’t think that’s realistic. 
 

To be honest, I was kind of bored with Elsa this week. I do like the narration, though. 
 

Thomas is becoming one of my favorite characters. I enjoy the back and forth with Shea. 

Yeah, regardless of what they are paying for this journey I doubt that anyone would have tried taking a piano or a lot of the other things. The last thing you would want is to be slowed down and made easier prey for Indians and bandits.

[Sunnykm]

I have read about pioneers bringing things like pianos and heavy furniture.  They really had no idea how hard the Oregon Trail would be and they worried they would have nothing if they didn't bring it.  

My family has a diary of a great-great grandmother who came to the west coast via OT.  It was hot and dusty--it is heartbreaking to read parts of it.

[North of Eden]

Sam Elliot continues to be the MVP. His character is absolutely riveting as in the scene where he orders the piano left behind.

On the other end of the spectrum my mind instantly begans to wander when the daufghter's "romance" is on the screen. Am just not feeling it. The pace is already slow enough but the romance brings everything to a stand still.

I don't know what the main character is like on YELLOW STONE but I'm starting to get the feeling the main one here really is something of a jerk.

He didn't even really try to stop his sister from killing herself and showed zero remorse over the loss of her and his neice. Then his own wife is clearly in emotional distress over not saving the drowning victem and he does nothing by way of comforting her. The daughter didn't either for that matter.

Not really understanding the tears when she was playing Moonlight Sonata.

It didn't seem like anyone needed to drown going over that river with a little more caution and vigalence.

Edited January 10, 2022 by North of Eden

[Sunnykm]

I felt like Elsa realized while playing Moonlight Sonata that it was probably the last time she would play a piano.  Who knows if there would be one available in Montana?  Also the realization that her life is profoundly changed with this move--she won't be a "lady" as she was raised and now a cowgirl/boy.  

It also reminded me of A Room with a View when the lead actress played piano she often was morose and spent when done.  

Ennis and his teeth!  Lol.  Some good orthodontia and whitener in Texas :-)

[RedDelicious]

On 1/9/2022 at 1:04 PM, LadyIrony said:

 

On 1/9/2022 at 1:04 PM, LadyIrony said:

7. Ordinary citizens were unable to borrow money to buy land in Germany until after 1850.

8. Farms became so small that they were unable to sustain families.

10. Industrialization wiped out home industries such as spinning, weaving, etc.

11. Young men were compelled to serve in the German army. Many emigrated illegally to escape this mandate.

15. Gottfried Duden’s book on his life in Missouri.

 

My grandparents and great-grandparents are what we called "real Germans" which was a family colloquialism for "born in Germany." I'll have to ask my mom some questions about these things to see if she can offer any insight. More on the list above in Small Talk!

Edited January 11, 2022 by RedDelicious

[sadie]

I’m loving this show! I wouldn’t have made it probably one night in those conditions, just shows how soft we’ve all become.

Faith Hill is really impressing me. I didn’t realize she could act. The daughter playing the piano intercut with the scenes of absolute tragedy was just gutting. I like these strong female characters and McGraw is really giving us insight into how the Duttons all just became a bunch of assholes in present day, it’s in their bloodline. 
 

Well done Taylor, I’m praying this doesn’t go downhill like Yellowstone has.

[Haleth]

I can’t imagine what possessed people - like a blacksmith or a musician- to want to travel thousands of miles to the unknown. Surely things weren’t that horrible in PA or TN or MO or wherever they came from?  Especially compared to Europe?  What was the promise of OR that made them leave?

Im really enjoying this show too. It has elements of Centennial and Lonesome Dove. 

Edited January 10, 2022 by Haleth

[The Pretender]

Another great episode, happy it's staying on a high note. I agree with above posters that the crossing of the river was a hard watch. I'm almost happy we haven't gotten to know the emigrants so much cause it would've been gutwrenching if a beloved character drowned (not to sound shallow but you know I hope!?). I agree Faith Hill did an awesome job this episode. Seeing her on the banks of the river with a scratched face was just super sad. 

I'm still in to Elsa/Ennis, they're cute together. And I like how she can show all sides of herself to him, & that he only played a jerk for a minute that morning after their first kiss. Also interested in seeing where this Thomas and Noemi fling will go. 

I must've missed when one of the germans said that they weren't allowed to learn how to swim. I'm a swede myself so I find that kind of hard to believe but I'm no truth-holder so who knows. Over here at least swiming was introduced in schools in the 1800 hundreds, women were held back in the beginning but were included in swimming lessons from the mid century. This of course means one had to attend school which wasn't always the case. Our naval force started pushing the importance of knowing how to swim already in the 1700 hundreds. Sweden is surrounded by more water than Germany I guess but I think the amount of lakes are about the same. 

As a swede I'm not foreign to seeing the trials of emigrants on the screen. There was a movie made back in 1971 (before I was born) called The Emigrants (that people still talk about) that they did a new adaption off just last year with Gustaf Skarsgård in the male lead role - The Emigrants (2021) 
The movie(s) are based on a book from 1949. They've also done a musical adaption of that book + the others in a series the author made, called Kristina from Duvemåla The musical - music by half the duo of ABBA Björn & Benny. 
Anyway the movie(s) & musical is about a family's poverty-driven migration from Sweden to America in the mid-19th century. It reminds me a bit of this show, biggest difference the swedes seemed to head towards Minnesota. Two of the songs from the musical are still on my playlist and I always get misty eyed when listening to them. My mom took me to see the musical when it came to Stockholm and it just blew me away, probably what started my love for musicals. 

[rhygirl720]

Sam Elliot is killing it in this role. I can't imagine another actor. He embodies the character seamlessly.

Dutton is an ass...but he is normally right.

I'm loving Faith hills here. She was a boss crossing that river, but still able to show empathy and softness.

Thomas for me is a revelation. I love his character. 

 

[tessaray]

Even a strong swimmer can drown in a river. Rivers are treacherous.

My families were poor farmers to blue collar working class. Until the schools introduced swimming as part of PhysEd after WWII, none of them could swim. 

[mythoughtis]

The Elsa character is the weak link here for me.  The narration. The romance.  The opening scenes of her just strolling in the meadow in her clean dress while everyone else is working their butts off in filthy clothing. Her mom crying at the end and she just rides past her.  Her dad just shrugging his shoulders about her and the cowboy and leaving her alone with him overnight.  Compare that to the Romany widow who would have starved except for Seay and Thomas 

[CountryGirl]

Possibly UO, but I like the Elsa character. She's transitioning to a young woman from a girl in the midst of all this. 

I don't know that she knew what to do with her normally composed mother breaking down. That's hard for any kid to see, yet alone know how to address. Especially back then.

I'm also not sure Margaret even wanted comforting just then. She was still trying to process what had happened.

As far as Elsa being left alone overnight with the cowboy. This was an age and setting where practicality trumped etiquette. They left a lot of that back in Tennessee and I think he reasoned that even if Elsa would try to take things further, the cowboy, knowing what his fate would be, would draw the line. 

[Crashcourse]

Elsa's narration voice makes me drowsy.  There's no spark in her.

[mojoween]

On 1/9/2022 at 2:12 PM, ShortyMac said:

You’re telling me that horses drug a heavy piano around for weeks? I don’t think that’s realistic. 

Also apparently a cast iron stove!

Taylor said in the BTS that he wanted to be as authentic as possible, so were there people in Fort Worth in 1883 who went walking around and suddenly stumbled on piles and piles of belongings?

Also I wonder how time period appropriate that piano was.  Looked old, anyways.

[blackwing]

I really enjoyed this episode.  One of my concerns about this series when we heard about it was the description that it would be the Duttons' journey from Texas to Montana.  I remarked that it sounded awfully bleak, like a Grapes of Wrath struggle.  We didn't really see that struggle until this episode.  Sure, there were hints of it here and there.  Are the people really just eating hardtack crackers for weeks?  Not knowing that they had to boil the water first.   The woman dying because she was taking a pee and getting bit in the ass by a rattlesnake.  But this episode really highlighted how tough things were.

We know the Duttons end up in Montana.  But the whole time, the wagon train is talking about Oregon.  I am curious as to how they eventually end up in Montana.  I am wondering if they will reach Montana by the end of this season.  Does anyone know how many episodes are in this season?  Would next season then focus on life in Montana?  I love seeing late 1800s western towns like in "Deadwood".  I hope they get to Oregon/Montana by the end of the season, it would be really anticlimactic if they did not.

It was tough seeing the people dying in the water.  There was a rope for them to hang on to, but I guess the current dislodged some of them.  I'm wondering why they couldn't put a little bit more slack in the rope and teach the Germans how to wrap the rope around their wrist (like Short Round telling Willie Scott what to do on that rope bridge in the final Mola Ram confrontation) and then get themselves across that way.

On 1/9/2022 at 7:38 AM, NeenerNeener said:

OK, so we finally got episode 4. I haven't paid that much attention to the pioneers so I don't know which ones made it and which ones didn't. I now see the logic in my friend Robin selling all her furniture right before she moves, though. She must have been a pioneer who had to leave it all on the riverbank in a previous life.

So, did the daughter lose her V card to the cowboy when Mom and Dad were across the river? I wonder if that's what it was supposed to mean when they let her sleep late.

I too am having a hard time distinguishing the pioneers.  I think the ones we have met with any kind of impressionable length are German leader, the Gypsy widow, Italian guy and his pantalone-making wife.  What happened to the German guy that robbed the widow?  Shea destroyed his wagon and said he would kill him if he didn't leave.  But I think he didn't leave?  The couple that was in their tent saying they would start making their family that night, was that German leader and his wife?

Someone in previous threads said the cowboy looks like Owen Wilson.  I don't think he looks like Owen Wilson at all, apart from the straggly blond hair.  Owen Wilson has pinched squinty eyes and a nose that looks like it was broken multiple times.  This guy has big eyes.  I'd say he looks more like a Poor Man's Matt Barr... particularly Matt Barr as Johnsie Hatfield in "Hatfields and McCoys".

I don't think Cowboy would have slept with Elsa... I think in these times, they both would have known that it wasn't something that would have been done, particularly after Dad warned him about it.

On 1/10/2022 at 11:58 AM, North of Eden said:

Sam Elliot continues to be the MVP. His character is absolutely riveting as in the scene where he orders the piano left behind.

On the other end of the spectrum my mind instantly begans to wander when the daufghter's "romance" is on the screen. Am just not feeling it. The pace is already slow enough but the romance brings everything to a stand still.

I don't know what the main character is like on YELLOW STONE but I'm starting to get the feeling the main one here really is something of a jerk.

He didn't even really try to stop his sister from killing herself and showed zero remorse over the loss of her and his neice. Then his own wife is clearly in emotional distress over not saving the drowning victem and he does nothing by way of comforting her. The daughter didn't either for that matter.

Not really understanding the tears when she was playing Moonlight Sonata.

It didn't seem like anyone needed to drown going over that river with a little more caution and vigalence.

On 1/10/2022 at 12:04 PM, Sunnykm said:

I felt like Elsa realized while playing Moonlight Sonata that it was probably the last time she would play a piano.  Who knows if there would be one available in Montana?  Also the realization that her life is profoundly changed with this move--she won't be a "lady" as she was raised and now a cowgirl/boy.  

I think Dutton is a tough character but I don't think he's a jerk.  I think, as he said, his #1 goal is to keep his family alive.  He doesn't care much about anything else beyond that.  I do feel like he could have cared more about his sister, but I think that was just how times were.  In an era where many children didn't survive early childhood, people were callously killed in gunfights, disease claimed many... I think death was readily apparent part of life, and perhaps people just accepted it. 

His sister had given up on life, especially after she got her only surviving child killed.  She brought that death on upon herself.  Which was particularly appalling after we learned that six other children of hers had died.  Plus her husband.  I would have thought she would have appreciated life and her only surviving child more.  But she was as nasty as ever.  After she picked a fight with that bandit and directly brought about the gunfight that killed her daughter, she was done.  Maybe she came to the realisation that the death was her fault, maybe not.  But she didn't want to live anymore.  If she had made that determination, I am not sure what else James could have done.  He thinks in terms of practicalities... and she was an extra mouth to feed while contributing nothing to his family or the legacy of his family.

I think Sam Elliott's Shea is the true hard-nosed jerk of this series.  He too has had a tough lot in life, his entire family died of smallpox.  He is clearly a tough man who wants things done his way.  I understand why he didn't want the German thief who robbed the widow around with his crew, so he destroyed the wagon.  But why was he so tough on the piano player?  My interpretation was that he kicked the guy out of the group.  He said that the guy had two choices: 1) go back to Fort Worth or 2) he would kill him on the spot.  Why can't the guy continue with them without the piano?  He clearly left the piano.

I agree that the pioneers had to get rid of all of that furniture and heavy objects in order to cross the river.  But he didn't have to be such an ass about it.  It's their life... if they wanted to risk their wagon in the river and lost everything in the river, let them.  We saw a shot of at least one wagon stuck in the river and left there.  It didn't seem to endanger any of the others.

I agree with the interpretation that Elsa was crying over her lost life in Tennessee.  Everything had changed, as she keeps saying in her narrations.  She left civilization behind for the unknown frontier.  She put pants on.  She has seen death.

I'm still wondering about that opening scene in the premiere.  How does she survive?  Who was the woman who was scalped?  Does this scene actually even happen, or is it just a dream/metaphor?  I am assuming she survives because the narration seems to be done after the fact, like she is an old woman narrating her life story and recounting the events of this journey to her grandchildren.  Yet we don't see her in the scenes that were aired this season on "Yellowstone", where James is seen with John and a yet-to-be borne younger brother.  Hopefully she survives and is an adult living on her own.  I could easily see her marrying the Matt Barr cowboy (he kind of has a Kayce look with the straggly hair) and raising children of her own.  Maybe Season 5 of Yellowstone proper can introduce Dutton cousins who are the descendants of Elsa.  John is presumably the grandfather of Kevin Costner's John.  So Elsa's grandchildren would be John's second cousins, and their children would be third cousins with John's children.  I think.

 

[mythoughtis]

The piano player was given three choices.  One was to take   wagon and leave, one was to die, and one was to leave the piano and stay.  Since the piano was left, he must have stayed. 
The wagon in the river was retrieved at the end. It was a problem during the crossing as it made everyone else go around it. Something that Shea warned people about at the beginning.

None of the Yellowstone Duttons have  ever mentioned extended family.  John in particular railed about the fact that Tate wouldn’t have  any cousins to help him with the ranch.  So where are John’s cousins to help HIM with the ranch?  

[blackwing]

38 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

The piano player was given three choices.  One was to take   wagon and leave, one was to die, and one was to leave the piano and stay.  Since the piano was left, he must have stayed. 
The wagon in the river was retrieved at the end. It was a problem during the crossing as it made everyone else go around it. Something that Shea warned people about at the beginning.

None of the Yellowstone Duttons have  ever mentioned extended family.  John in particular railed about the fact that Tate wouldn’t have  any cousins to help him with the ranch.  So where are John’s cousins to help HIM with the ranch?  

Ah thanks for the clarification.  So he presumably stayed with them.

I understand that it was tough for the Germans to leave their stuff behind.  But since hardly any of them spoke English, I presume they had left Germany not too long ago.  When they left Germany I would presume they started over in Texas with nothing (unless somehow they had all of their furniture and stuff shipped over).  Somewhere along the line they must have acquired all their stuff like a stove and a piano and beds and dressers and chairs.  They can probably start over again in Oregon.  I would think the piano player especially could get a job in a saloon easily.

I agree that none of the modern Duttons have ever mentioned other family.  Presumably, this will have to be a retcon of sorts.  I can easily see a photo of James Dutton and his family appearing on the wall of John Dutton's study in Season 5.  I can easily see cousins popping up.  Whether they are other children of John the First, or whether they are descendants of Elsa or Spencer.  "How come you never talked about your grandfather, Dad?  What was he like?  Do we have any other relatives?"  "Well, it's a long story, there was a falling out between Grandpa and his brother and his cousins.  Growing up, I just didn't see a lot of other Duttons.  They all moved away and we didn't keep in contact with them."

I guess it could work if Costner John is an only child.  Some cousins decide to move back to town and try and get control of the ranch from John.  Maybe he eventually decides to ally with them against Silver Hair.

I think "1883" opens up a world of storylines for "Yellowstone" proper.

[LadyIrony]

On 1/12/2022 at 6:34 AM, mythoughtis said:

The Elsa character is the weak link here for me.  The narration. The romance.  The opening scenes of her just strolling in the meadow in her clean dress while everyone else is working their butts off in filthy clothing. Her mom crying at the end and she just rides past her.  Her dad just shrugging his shoulders about her and the cowboy and leaving her alone with him overnight.  Compare that to the Romany widow who would have starved except for Seay and Thomas 

I also don't get Dutton pulling the Immigrant out of the water while his wife wasn't far off struggling with the other woman. Then no one at all comes to console her afterwards. I find it hard to believe that people who know each other would be that cold. I get the coldness towards others but not their own family. 

Elsa is a weird character. More of a modern woman than an 1880's one. I have always felt like she is an addition to appease the usual suspects rather than something more authentic. 

I am glad Dutton already has a couple of kids as I don't think he will be getting anymore from her! 

6 hours ago, blackwing said:

I think Sam Elliott's Shea is the true hard-nosed jerk of this series.  He too has had a tough lot in life, his entire family died of smallpox.  He is clearly a tough man who wants things done his way.  I understand why he didn't want the German thief who robbed the widow around with his crew, so he destroyed the wagon.  But why was he so tough on the piano player?  My interpretation was that he kicked the guy out of the group.  He said that the guy had two choices: 1) go back to Fort Worth or 2) he would kill him on the spot.  Why can't the guy continue with them without the piano?  He clearly left the piano.

I agree that the pioneers had to get rid of all of that furniture and heavy objects in order to cross the river.  But he didn't have to be such an ass about it.  It's their life... if they wanted to risk their wagon in the river and lost everything in the river, let them.  We saw a shot of at least one wagon stuck in the river and left there.  It didn't seem to endanger any of the others.

I think he is in the unenviable position of having to play group Sherriff. The Immigrants are ill equipped in every way for the trip and they refused to listen back in the town. They were told to get rid of their furniture and anything unnecessary. They have a different idea of what unnecessary is and I still wonder how they paid to bring all that stuff over from Europe or how they bought it in the USA. Although their stuff looked very European to me, especially the piano. 

It just contradicts the idea of them being poor people escaping oppression. It is their life but it is also Shea's life and he probably doesn't want to see them drown or see the wagons get bogged down in the river as he would be the one they blame for it. 

[blackwing]

23 minutes ago, LadyIrony said:

I also don't get Dutton pulling the Immigrant out of the water while his wife wasn't far off struggling with the other woman. Then no one at all comes to console her afterwards. I find it hard to believe that people who know each other would be that cold. I get the coldness towards others but not their own family. 

Elsa is a weird character. More of a modern woman than an 1880's one. I have always felt like she is an addition to appease the usual suspects rather than something more authentic. 

I am glad Dutton already has a couple of kids as I don't think he will be getting anymore from her! 

I agree... I found it very odd that neither James nor Elsa said anything to Margaret at all.  I honestly had a hard time trying to figure out what was going on during that river scene.  It was just a chaotic mess of bodies flying this way and that.  At one point I thought that Margaret actually was drowning.  Then I realised she was trying to save the pigtails woman, and then maybe pigtails was panicking and dragging her under too, so she backed away from her.  Margaret had fresh scratches and blood on her face, so Pigtails must have clawed her?

Not sure why James couldn't have at least hugged her or acknowledged her.  Not sure why Elsa trotted up on the horse, looked at her mom, and then just kept going.  So strange.

I agree that Elsa has that modern independent woman with a taste for adventure... not so sure if an actual 18 year old woman on the frontier in 1883 would have actually acted the way she is acting.  I would have thought that she would foremost be a daughter of the family.  She would do everything her parents say.  Her dad did tell her to help with the cattle rustling, so she did.  But I certainly don't think she would be off gallivanting with Poor Man's Matt Barr.  She'd be in the tent, helping to take care of her brother, while her mom does the cooking and washing.

Re James and Margaret's relationship, per the "1883" scene we saw in this season of "Yellowstone",

Spoiler

James and Margaret will have at least one more kid.  There is another son named Spencer in that scene, he looked like he was about 8 years old.  So presumably we will find out she is pregnant perhaps in this season of "1883".

 

[LadyIrony]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

I agree... I found it very odd that neither James nor Elsa said anything to Margaret at all.  I honestly had a hard time trying to figure out what was going on during that river scene.  It was just a chaotic mess of bodies flying this way and that.  At one point I thought that Margaret actually was drowning.  Then I realised she was trying to save the pigtails woman, and then maybe pigtails was panicking and dragging her under too, so she backed away from her.  Margaret had fresh scratches and blood on her face, so Pigtails must have clawed her?

Not sure why James couldn't have at least hugged her or acknowledged her.  Not sure why Elsa trotted up on the horse, looked at her mom, and then just kept going.  So strange.

I agree that Elsa has that modern independent woman with a taste for adventure... not so sure if an actual 18 year old woman on the frontier in 1883 would have actually acted the way she is acting.  I would have thought that she would foremost be a daughter of the family.  She would do everything her parents say.  Her dad did tell her to help with the cattle rustling, so she did.  But I certainly don't think she would be off gallivanting with Poor Man's Matt Barr.  She'd be in the tent, helping to take care of her brother, while her mom does the cooking and washing.

Re James and Margaret's relationship, per the "1883" scene we saw in this season of "Yellowstone",

  Reveal spoiler

James and Margaret will have at least one more kid.  There is another son named Spencer in that scene, he looked like he was about 8 years old.  So presumably we will find out she is pregnant perhaps in this season of "1883".

 

I had trouble understand it too. I thought they were fighting at first then I thought she was trying to save her but the other woman was trying to drag her down in an attempt to save herself. In the end I think Mrs Dutton had to break off her attempt to get away. Yeah I think Pigtails was so desperate she panicked and prevented her own rescue. 

It was very cold that the rest of the family didn't even ask. I am putting it down to lazy writing or they want to present the image of a "keep going at all costs/only the strong survive" philosophy. Which is a contradiction as the Immigrants aren't particularly strong at all. 

Elsa is definitely there to ticks some boxes. They want her to be the proper lady one moment (playing piano, wistfully dreaming in the fields) then rough and tough the next. I doubt that someone like Dutton would want a drifter type anywhere near his daughter. Nor do I think he would be allowing her to be treated like an adult in all respects. If she gets pregnant by this cowboy it will be on Dutton to feed and support it while cowboy runs off to the next job. 

Elsa seems educated and sophisticated. Except for Bad Boy novelty I don't see what she sees in cowboy. And even as a bad boy he isn't much to be impressed about. 

Ok your spoiler makes sense too. 

 

[LadyIrony]

Found some links on what Pioneers may have taken with them and they were all told to travel light. 

https://historycollection.com/10-eye-opening-details-about-life-on-the-oregon-trail/7/

https://oregontrailcenter.org/supplies

 

 

 

[LuvizBlind]

On 1/9/2022 at 12:17 PM, joliefaire said:

Illegal to swim?  Illegal to even be in a river?  Does anyone know if this was historically accurate, that these Germans (or Dutch, as I've seen them described) came from someplace where it was illegal to swim?  If so, if its accurate, what the hell kind of law was that, I mean, what for?  Anybody got the actual facts on that issue?

https://www.looper.com/729657/the-1883-season-1-episode-4-scene-that-left-fans-scratching-their-heads/

From the article:

"While some users left comments similarly wondering whether or not such a thing could have ever been true, user OhSassafrass shared in a reply that Germany did indeed once ban swimming in response to widespread death by drowning. That said, as user Shawmattack01 shared in a later comment, this was the case at one point in Germany but was no longer law during the period of time in which "1883" takes place.

So, while the statute Josef references is historically accurate, the fact that Josef claims such a thing to still be true seems to remain a point of contention for viewers with knowledge of German history, compounding the overall confusion over this scene."

 

[LadyIrony]

1 hour ago, LuvizBlind said:

https://www.looper.com/729657/the-1883-season-1-episode-4-scene-that-left-fans-scratching-their-heads/

From the article:

"While some users left comments similarly wondering whether or not such a thing could have ever been true, user OhSassafrass shared in a reply that Germany did indeed once ban swimming in response to widespread death by drowning. That said, as user Shawmattack01 shared in a later comment, this was the case at one point in Germany but was no longer law during the period of time in which "1883" takes place.

So, while the statute Josef references is historically accurate, the fact that Josef claims such a thing to still be true seems to remain a point of contention for viewers with knowledge of German history, compounding the overall confusion over this scene."

 

https://www.historytoday.com/miscellanies/how-europe-learnt-swim

Found the above link Germany banned swimming in the 1530's as many people had forgotten how to do it and drownings were common. Some other European countries did the same. Apparently Germany lifted the ban in 1882 and swimming was legal again. So it is plausible the immigrants were never able to legally learn how to swim. 

That said unless every field and river was patrolled by some sort of Police force, I don't know how that could really be enforced.

[lucindabelle]

I call BS on the piano - I play piano and it’s not like a guitar or fiddle, you KNOW you’ll play a different one than you learned on during a concert. Pianists don’t drag their Steinways around. It would have made more sense if it was a heavy accordion or something except accordions aren’t too heavy. Just saying his grief and even his intention are ridiculous. Also we all know every western saloon has a piano. :)

 

I actually feel sorrier for the carpenter or blacksmith since it can take years for tools to feel right to the band. (Again: NO pianist expects this. Ever.)

I loved the grumpy Italian woman. 
 

the narration reminds me of the western girls narration in west world and I could live without it. 

[LadyIrony]

15 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

I call BS on the piano - I play piano and it’s not like a guitar or fiddle, you KNOW you’ll play a different one than you learned on during a concert. Pianists don’t drag their Steinways around. It would have made more sense if it was a heavy accordion or something except accordions aren’t too heavy. Just saying his grief and even his intention are ridiculous. Also we all know every western saloon has a piano. :)

 

I actually feel sorrier for the carpenter or blacksmith since it can take years for tools to feel right to the band. (Again: NO pianist expects this. Ever.)

I loved the grumpy Italian woman. 
 

the narration reminds me of the western girls narration in west world and I could live without it. 

The blacksmiths tools would also be useful on the trail as horses might need re shoeing. Asides from an anvil I wouldn’t think his tools would weigh that much.

Trying to haul a piano is too much I agree.

[KAOS Agent]

On 1/16/2022 at 6:32 PM, LadyIrony said:

The blacksmiths tools would also be useful on the trail as horses might need re shoeing. Asides from an anvil I wouldn’t think his tools would weigh that much.

Trying to haul a piano is too much I agree.

They wouldn't have dumped the blacksmith's tools. They would have needed them. The anvil would be very heavy, but that could be mitigated by putting some other lighter goods in that wagon and there's no way they would have dumped it at that point. Maybe later if things got really dire. Most trains had a blacksmith with them to fix the wheels, axels, etc. They'd have do the work if they could rent a smithy at various forts/trading posts along the trail.

But as for the piano, you'd be surprised what people tried to haul across the country. The wife of the sutler at Fort Bridger refused to move out there unless her husband brought their piano along. Fort Laramie was known as a massive dumping ground as people realized that they couldn't continue hauling stuff across the country. All kinds of stuff ended up there. They didn't just dump furniture, they dumped thousands of pounds of food as well. I once had some people who stopped by the fort where I work and they told me a story about how their great, great whatever made a very elaborate and heavy coffin for their mother because they didn't expect her to survive the trip. They refused to bury her in a shallow grave covered by rocks. They ended up dragging the damn thing all the way to Oregon because the mother made it and lived another two years beyond that.

As someone whose job is teaching people about the Oregon Trail (and California & Mormon Trails), I'm happy to see that people are learning what it all involved to set across on a wagon train. But I also kind of want to cry at the disbelief about the mostly accurate portrayal thus far. 

[LadyIrony]

On 1/22/2022 at 4:22 PM, KAOS Agent said:

They wouldn't have dumped the blacksmith's tools. They would have needed them. The anvil would be very heavy, but that could be mitigated by putting some other lighter goods in that wagon and there's no way they would have dumped it at that point. Maybe later if things got really dire. Most trains had a blacksmith with them to fix the wheels, axels, etc. They'd have do the work if they could rent a smithy at various forts/trading posts along the trail.

But as for the piano, you'd be surprised what people tried to haul across the country. The wife of the sutler at Fort Bridger refused to move out there unless her husband brought their piano along. Fort Laramie was known as a massive dumping ground as people realized that they couldn't continue hauling stuff across the country. All kinds of stuff ended up there. They didn't just dump furniture, they dumped thousands of pounds of food as well. I once had some people who stopped by the fort where I work and they told me a story about how their great, great whatever made a very elaborate and heavy coffin for their mother because they didn't expect her to survive the trip. They refused to bury her in a shallow grave covered by rocks. They ended up dragging the damn thing all the way to Oregon because the mother made it and lived another two years beyond that.

As someone whose job is teaching people about the Oregon Trail (and California & Mormon Trails), I'm happy to see that people are learning what it all involved to set across on a wagon train. But I also kind of want to cry at the disbelief about the mostly accurate portrayal thus far. 

I'm not American so watching this isn't like someone who was taught about it at school etc would be watching it. I do think that is the problem though when you mix some fantasy with historical accuracy. It makes you question things. I don't buy Elsa as a cowgirl.

As you mention they wouldn't have dumped the Blacksmith items as I previously mentioned they wouldn't have done.

I also still can't work out if the brought their furniture from Europe or bought it in the U.S. I think it would have been rather expensive to ship all of that stuff. Likewise to buy it once State side. Not to mention what do they think is going to be in Oregon? Ready made houses to move into? I guess it's possible.

I can see how they are trying to make it somewhat accurate, as silly as it is but women with hairy arm pits lends to that in terms of detail. But they also make allowances for modern day beliefs and politics which can let it down at times.

[lucindabelle]

I guess I should clarify - it’s not so much that I don’t believe anyone wojld transport a piano as that I don’t believe a PROFESSIONAL MUSICIAN would. Someone for whom a piano was furniture, sentimental value, symbolic, yes. But the whole “how will I make a living” for a pianist? Just no. I mean even Mozart did not drag his own piano around. 
 

i guess I would have been more moved had it been a hope chest, a coffin, hell a samovar.

[LadyIrony]

13 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

I guess I should clarify - it’s not so much that I don’t believe anyone wojld transport a piano as that I don’t believe a PROFESSIONAL MUSICIAN would. Someone for whom a piano was furniture, sentimental value, symbolic, yes. But the whole “how will I make a living” for a pianist? Just no. I mean even Mozart did not drag his own piano around. 
 

i guess I would have been more moved had it been a hope chest, a coffin, hell a samovar.

They were also warned by experienced frontiers men to not bring too much stuff. I'm surprised they didn't go through their wagons before leaving town. Instead of all those people walking they could fit in the wagons!

And did the piano player believe he would just be able to roll his piano into a saloon and start playing? 

A seminar would have been useful too.

[Affogato]

On 1/12/2022 at 8:02 PM, LadyIrony said:

I had trouble understand it too. I thought they were fighting at first then I thought she was trying to save her but the other woman was trying to drag her down in an attempt to save herself. In the end I think Mrs Dutton had to break off her attempt to get away. Yeah I think Pigtails was so desperate she panicked and prevented her own rescue. 

It was very cold that the rest of the family didn't even ask. I am putting it down to lazy writing or they want to present the image of a "keep going at all costs/only the strong survive" philosophy. Which is a contradiction as the Immigrants aren't particularly strong at all. 

Elsa is definitely there to ticks some boxes. They want her to be the proper lady one moment (playing piano, wistfully dreaming in the fields) then rough and tough the next. I doubt that someone like Dutton would want a drifter type anywhere near his daughter. Nor do I think he would be allowing her to be treated like an adult in all respects. If she gets pregnant by this cowboy it will be on Dutton to feed and support it while cowboy runs off to the next job. 

Elsa seems educated and sophisticated. Except for Bad Boy novelty I don't see what she sees in cowboy. And even as a bad boy he isn't much to be impressed about. 

Ok your spoiler makes sense too. 

 

There are a lot of hints that Faith Hill’s character is not a parlor room lady. There maybe some history there we don’t know. 

[millennium]

On 1/9/2022 at 1:29 PM, wlk68 said:

The pioneers appear to be a bit of mishmash. Not just German peasants but Romani (Gypsies) and the man who was told to leave his piano behind sounded like he was speaking Yiddish so maybe Jews as well? All people who were discriminated against.  

Kinda like ... I don't know ... a melting pot?  😛

[millennium]

On 1/12/2022 at 11:16 AM, blackwing said:

I think Sam Elliott's Shea is the true hard-nosed jerk of this series.
 

On 1/10/2022 at 12:58 PM, North of Eden said:

I don't know what the main character is like on YELLOW STONE but I'm starting to get the feeling the main one here really is something of a jerk.

I don't think I would pass judgment on anybody who saw battle in the Civil War.   Even today war changes people.  But then? 

[UnikornRainbowz]

This show just punches you in the gut and never stops!! This is the best new show I have watched since I watched The Wire and SOA. OMG!!

These people were all in shock, that is why they were so cold. They literally could not do anything else. 

[LadyIrony]

On 2/5/2022 at 11:12 PM, Affogato said:

There are a lot of hints that Faith Hill’s character is not a parlor room lady. There maybe some history there we don’t know. 

True she does act and look quite rough. 

On 2/8/2022 at 2:57 PM, millennium said:

I don't think I would pass judgment on anybody who saw battle in the Civil War.   Even today war changes people.  But then? 

I think back then it would have been worse. They may have had some experience with violence against Indians and Bandits but there was a lot of new technology in the Civil War. I recall watching the Ken Burns doco The Civil War and was surprised to see how articulate the soldiers were in their letters home. They seemed far more sensitive than we probably give them credit for. 

[millennium]

6 minutes ago, LadyIrony said:

I recall watching the Ken Burns doco The Civil War and was surprised to see how articulate the soldiers were in their letters home. They seemed far more sensitive than we probably give them credit for. 

Anyone with a grade school education back then was more articulate than the average American adult today.   Children of 12 were more articulate than today's adults.   Education, especially reading, writing and an understanding and appreciation of history, were highly esteemed in the 19th century.

I don't know where things went wrong.

[LadyIrony]

16 minutes ago, millennium said:

Anyone with a grade school education back then was more articulate than the average American adult today.   Children of 12 were more articulate than today's adults.   Education, especially reading, writing and an understanding and appreciation of history, were highly esteemed in the 19th century.

I don't know where things went wrong.

They put a lot of shit on people from the past and education but they learned college level math and other subjects before the age of 12 most of the time! I know in Australia there is more focus on teaching Political Agenda's then actually educating.