S01.E06: So This Is Christmas?

[paigow]

5 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Plus Ronin wiped out Maya's dad and probably a lot of other Kingpin associates...

Because of Kingpin...

[Kel Varnsen]

13 minutes ago, paigow said:

Because of Kingpin...

Do you think he just stopped at the guys Fisk wanted dead?

[Fool to cry]

In the comics writer artist Frank Miller had the dilemma in reverse. He was wondering how could he take Kingpin, a character who was originally an over the top PG rated Spider-Man villain and bring him into his Daredevil comic which he had transformed into this dark, gritty film noir world full of damgerous killers. Fellow artist John Byrne suggested he do a series of panels where he starts out drawn like he was by John Romita Sr. in the 60s, he lights a cigarette and he's suddenly lit ominously half in shadows. Voila, he's now a Frank Miller character!

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by Fool to cry

[paigow]

50 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Do you think he just stopped at the guys Fisk wanted dead?

Dude cannot purge a bunch of minions and also complain about staffing issues...

Do you think Barton / Ronin was essentially working for Fisk? 

[Kel Varnsen]

32 minutes ago, paigow said:

Do you think Barton / Ronin was essentially working for Fisk? 

Probably not, but I can picture a scenario where Ronin is wiping out every bad guy in NYC and costing Fisk a bunch of money. So Fisk manages to convince him/manipulate him somehow into thinking that Maya senior is the top guy who needs to be taken out. Not sure why he wouldn't go after Fisk after that, maybe Clint doesn't learn he is actually the big boss until well after the fact. Either way he could have taken out a lot of Kingpin"s guys first.

 

[pancake bacon]

On 12/23/2021 at 11:45 PM, Eliza422 said:

5. Another side note, I wish there had been more Clint / Natasha through the movies. I know there were small hints, but if I only knew the movies I don't know that I would think they were such soulmates. Sure there were some hints, but she spent so much time with Cap in the movies I would think they would be the soulmate BFFs.

Hawkeye was a great reminder of the great acting Jeremy Renner is capable of, and how well he plays off with scene partners, especially with Scarlett Johansson. His acting (not romantic!) chemistry with Hailee Steinfeld speaks to both their chops and supportive nature as performers. So yes, I could've used more Clint and Natasha in the movies too. 

On 12/24/2021 at 5:50 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

I kept waiting for it, kinda fully expected it.

 

On 12/24/2021 at 7:41 AM, calliope1975 said:

I'll be a contrarian and say I think Yelena would really get into the musical. Souvenirs and all. And then she'd be humming it to herself as she stabbed someone later. 

It would've been perfect if it cut to Scott Lang was in the audience, really, really into it. Hey, I'm in the show! 

I'm putting on a flame-retardant armor, and actually state that I find Yelena/Florence Pugh just aight. She gets a lot of choice writing, so Florence Pugh has an easier road, though I grant that she's got performance skills to make those lines sing, but still… she's so set up. I mean, I like her, but I believe Clint and Kate's budding partnership the highlight of this show. Yes, it's my favorite Disney+ show. Well done, show runners! 

[dwmarch]

13 hours ago, pancake bacon said:

I'm putting on a flame-retardant armor, and actually state that I find Yelena/Florence Pugh just aight. She gets a lot of choice writing, so Florence Pugh has an easier road, though I grant that she's got performance skills to make those lines sing, but

I agree with you. Sometimes when Marvel tells me I must like this character it can have the opposite effect. And Disney/Marvel really should know better by now. I'm watching this alongside Mayor of Kingstown which has absolutely no likeable characters at all but despite that I find myself rooting for a few of them.

In the specific case of Yelena I think there's also some weird whiplash character-wise. She's this wisecracking funny badass but she's also in great pain over losing her sister - such great pain that she wants to murder the person she thinks is responsible. Now, I'm not saying there's any reason why she can't be both but I don't think they quite hit the right balance here.

[TV Diva Queen]

Can anyone supply a link of the closing credits.  My firestick/internet was HORRIBLE during the final episode and I didn't have the patience to wait for the credits (the episdoe took me 2 hours to watch because of poor wifi or something)  I googled it, and can't find the link, lots of people talking about it, but no link.  I'm sure someone will immediately and it and then I shall look the fool.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm assuming you mean the Full Rogers Musical post credit scene?

I found this link, it's in German and then repeats in English (starting at 4:37).

 

[Sandman]

On 12/22/2021 at 4:28 AM, vb68 said:

I liked watching Kate go down the side of the building. Where is your friendly neighborhood Spiderman when you could really use him?

I thought the web-like electrified net arrow across the store window to prevent Fisk's escape functioned as a nice allusion to Spidey's history with the Kingpin.

I was sure that the Rolex of Mystery was some pilfered Stark tech (as I suppose the show intended me to). But is Agent 19 synonymous with Mockingbird? Because Bobbi Morse exists in the MCU, no?

A thoroughly satisfying conclusion -- though I still don't trust skeezy McStabbington Jack. And I'm sure the Kingpin's not dead -- loved Kate's setting off ALL the Arrows Too Dangerous To Use. That was a great moment, as was the "Let's give 'em hell" fight scene.

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, Sandman said:

Because Bobbi Morse exists in the MCU, no?

That depends on whether or not Agents of Shield is canon, and that's a conversation with no definitive answer right now.  It's just like how it's not certain if Kingpin is the same guy as we saw in the Daredevil show - VDO made his acting choices as if he was, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is.  I mean, would the Daredevil version have ever worn such a ridiculous shirt?

[Sandman]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

That depends on whether or not Agents of Shield is canon, and that's a conversation with no definitive answer right now. 

Yeah, I've completely lost the thread on that one.

[Cranberry]

On 12/26/2021 at 12:39 PM, pancake bacon said:

I'm putting on a flame-retardant armor, and actually state that I find Yelena/Florence Pugh just aight. She gets a lot of choice writing, so Florence Pugh has an easier road

Funnily enough, all the stuff people like most about Yelena came from Florence Pugh, not from the writers. The outfits, the cutlery joke, the hot sauce, plus all of her most memorable lines from Black Widow (like the hysterectomy rant, which was initially a lazy "time of the month" joke, and the "poser" line)... I think Marvel struck gold with her. Without her input, it seems like the character would be truer to how a former brainwashed assassin would act, but much less fun.

[Cristofle]

On 12/23/2021 at 10:45 AM, Eliza422 said:

5. Another side note, I wish there had been more Clint / Natasha through the movies. I know there were small hints, but if I only knew the movies I don't know that I would think they were such soulmates. Sure there were some hints, but she spent so much time with Cap in the movies I would think they would be the soulmate BFFs.

I've always gotten the impression Joss Whedon chose to undermine their relationship mostly out of spite in Age of Ultron. And I don't think he ever intended Laura to be Mockingbird or any of kind of agent - he was obsessed with "It's the greatest twist of all time that Hawkeye is just a normal guy with a normal wife and kids". I appreciate that the show has tried to give the Clint/Nat relationship more importance and Laura more relevance, but it will always be disappointing that Clint/Nat wasn't done more justice when she was alive in the films. 

[Kel Varnsen]

20 hours ago, Sandman said:

was sure that the Rolex of Mystery was some pilfered Stark tech (as I suppose the show intended me to).

It still may be. I assume that a SHIELD retirement watch has some pretty cool features, especially for an agent who is part of a couple that was important enough to Fury that he set up their secret family safehouse.

17 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

would the Daredevil version have ever worn such a ridiculous shirt?

Maybe? I mean he is a legitimate businessman and I assumed he was just on his way to his company Christmas party when he had to make a detour to Rockefeller Center.

[TV Diva Queen]

@Morrigan2575 YES - this is exactly what I was looking for.  Thank you. 

I adore Broadway and I really want this made into a musical.  I want it to be real. [punches fist to sky...I can do this all day]

[Sandman]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

It still may be. I assume that a SHIELD retirement watch has some pretty cool features ...

I like this idea a lot. There could conceivably be more to Clint's line about "taking better care of your stuff" than I first imagined. And it's a good point about Clint and Laura being important enough to Fury to merit the safe house arrangement.

7 hours ago, Cristofle said:

I've always gotten the impression Joss Whedon chose to undermine their relationship mostly out of spite in Age of Ultron.

This never would have occurred to me, honestly. Out of spite for whom, exactly?

It seems I have a lot fewer problems with Age of Ultron than a lot of viewers do.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Sandman

[SnarkShark]

On 12/26/2021 at 11:50 PM, dwmarch said:

I agree with you. Sometimes when Marvel tells me I must like this character it can have the opposite effect. And Disney/Marvel really should know better by now. I'm watching this alongside Mayor of Kingstown which has absolutely no likeable characters at all but despite that I find myself rooting for a few of them.

In the specific case of Yelena I think there's also some weird whiplash character-wise. She's this wisecracking funny badass but she's also in great pain over losing her sister - such great pain that she wants to murder the person she thinks is responsible. Now, I'm not saying there's any reason why she can't be both but I don't think they quite hit the right balance here.

I believe they did, but this kind of thing is obviously subjective.

And the aspect of Yelena that you "couldn't help but like her" somehow feels like an insert after they saw how people responded to her in Black Widow.  It doesn't feel like some planned character note, because how do you plan that? They exploited it when they saw how she came off to fans.  They then wrote the character as even more broadly comedic here, and sure enough aside from her tearful final conversation with Clint at the very end, the thing people responded most to was the two scenes with Yelena simultaneously charming and scaring the hell out of Kate.  The fact that she does both at once is proof the balance works.

On 12/27/2021 at 4:59 PM, cambridgeguy said:

That depends on whether or not Agents of Shield is canon, and that's a conversation with no definitive answer right now.  It's just like how it's not certain if Kingpin is the same guy as we saw in the Daredevil show - VDO made his acting choices as if he was, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is.  I mean, would the Daredevil version have ever worn such a ridiculous shirt?

I'm pretty sure since last week they've confirmed he and a certain other character are the same as their previous incarnation. 

The shirt is direct from a specific comics appearance, so that trumps any assumptions.  

They ARE choosing to portray him slightly differently than the Netflix version (his increased resistance to damage, his slightly shabbier office, his employment of some fairly incompetent goons) but thats akin to how Kingpin in Spider-Man and Kingpin in Daredevil comics, or in different authored runs of even the same title, are allowed to be a little different than each other, but are still assumed to be in the same continuity.  Its just a comics thing that non-comics people need to come to understand.  The big things need to be consistent, but the shading is allowed to differ a bit.

[Cristofle]

6 hours ago, Sandman said:

This never would have occurred to me, honestly. Out of spite for whom, exactly?

Fans. Joss has a long history of getting irritated with fans for reacting...to what he writes, lol. He infamously loves to say "He gives fans what they need, not what they want." He was vocally annoyed that people would react any way to Clint and Nat but think they were platonic buddies (despite the, you know, 50 year history of them often being more in the comics) and in interviews about Ultron, he kind of mocked fans anticipating them being upset, saying they should appreciate this amazing twist. 

I go up and down on Ultron. I didn't totally hate it, but I do have issues with a lot of it. Still, one of my least favorite parts is how he wrote Clint and Nat and how he created Laura to simply be a prop, and I'm really glad this show worked to undo some of that. I feel like these writers did actually care about Clint and his relationships. Don't get me started on how he got shoved into Civil War, lol. He's not even a comic fave of mine, I was more watching for Kate, but I hate to see these characters get undermined.

6 hours ago, SnarkShark said:

They ARE choosing to portray him slightly differently than the Netflix version (his increased resistance to damage, his slightly shabbier office, his employment of some fairly incompetent goons) but thats akin to how Kingpin in Spider-Man and Kingpin in Daredevil comics, or in different authored runs of even the same title, are allowed to be a little different than each other, but are still assumed to be in the same continuity.  Its just a comics thing that non-comics people need to come to understand. 

Great point. Daredevil gets DARK, both show and comics. Kingpin predated his appearance into Daredevil - he was originally introduced in Spider-Man - but they deliberately made him darker when he shifted to be a big nemesis there. It would make sense he would be portrayed in a less gritty, perhaps a little more OTT way for Hawkeye, which at least this show is lighter and more humorous on the whole. 

[formerlyfreedom]

Just a reminder, if you want to debate the movies that predate the show, please take that discussion to The Marvel Universe: Before The Show. Thank you!

[pancake bacon]

On 12/28/2021 at 6:33 PM, Cranberry said:

Funnily enough, all the stuff people like most about Yelena came from Florence Pugh, not from the writers.

That's a credit to Florence, for sure. She's still just aight for me, and I'm just not in the she's-the-most-amazing-thing-ever! camp. (I know, I know… I am alone on this island.)

What I am excited about is Hailee Steinfeld. She brought the charm, the emotion and the kick-ass moves that was required for the role of Kate Bishop. This show would not work if Hailee did not land every beat, and I'm so thrilled that the future of the MCU has her in it, shining bright.

And I've said before that I'm so dismayed that Clint/Jeremy Renner gets called out as the least-worthy Avenger. But when he is given the space and time to flesh out his role, it's clear to me that he's one of the dramatic greats working today. The phone call to Nate, the "shot I didn't take" storytelling and the "Kate, you're my partner" hit me right in the bullseye… of my heart. (Ha ha, corny as heck!) 

[blackwing]

Hawkeye is my favourite comics character ever.  I love his brashness, his humour, his competitive little brother relationship with Cap.  So I absolutely hated the MCU version - somber and serious family man.  He did have some quips in the movies occasionally, but they were always said in a deadpan style... not at all the Hawkeye of the comics.

I'm so happy that this series on The Plus has really redeemed Hawkeye in my eyes.  The Hawkeye in this TV show has more of the personality of the Hawkeye from the comics.  It is by far my favourite of the MCU shows on The Plus.  1) Hawkeye, 2) The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, 3) WandaVision (love Wanda, don't get the hype about Agatha), and a distant 100) Loki.

This series was fantastic.  I had been prepared for it to be Clint Barton's swan song, but the ending opens up the possibility that he will return in the future.

On 12/22/2021 at 3:56 AM, swanpride said:

As Agents of Shield fan: She was "a" Agent of Shield and happened to have the same code as Mockingbird. But she is not Bobby Morse. Because there is already a perfect Bobby Morse. 

 

On 12/22/2021 at 9:39 AM, Morrigan2575 said:

ETA: just saw the picture of the watch posted above, so it did show 19. I'll go with Laura Barton being the original MCU Mockingbird and Bobbie from AoS being the 2nd. Only because i believe AoS is part of MCU canon...well hell, now Netflix shows are too 😁

 

On 12/22/2021 at 12:02 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

When Clint was on the phone with Laura in the last episode, he seemed worried that the discovery of the watch meant it could be used to track them down. He knew that Maya had already done some checking on his family, and he tells his wife that it wouldn't be long before Fisk was involved. "The kids and I are so far away." "Not far enough. Never far enough."

I thought there was also a line from Laura that "we were so careful" and she was alarmed that people discovered her and their residence.  It seems clear to me that Laura is Agent 19, later known as Mockingbird.  It's been ages since I've seen "Agents of SHIELD", but I don't think Adrienne Palicki's Bobbi Morse was ever called "Mockingbird", was she?  I kept waiting for her to call herself that but I don't think she did?  Unless I missed it or don't remember.

My take on this is that Laura is intended to be Mockingbird.  It could be that her real name is Barbara Morse Barton and she just adopted the name Laura as an alias.  Or it could be that in the MCU, Hawkeye is married to Laura, who was formerly a SHIELD agent number 19.  She doesn't even have to necessarily have used the name Mockingbird.

Bobbi Morse in the MCU (if AoS is canon) could be another person entirely, who never met Clint Barton.  Interestingly, I recall that one of the Mockingbird comic book series did in fact introduce Lance Hunter, and Clint was in the same book, so at least in the comics, she is/was with both of them.

On 12/22/2021 at 1:42 PM, Ottis said:

I will say I have no interest in Maya or her story

On 12/23/2021 at 9:45 AM, Eliza422 said:

4. If Maya is supposed to be a character with her own show, I can't imagine that I would watch it. I totally don't like mob stories, regular criminal stories - I have no idea what a show with her would be like. As she was portrayed in this show, blech, no thanks.

Same.  Absolutely zero interest in Maya.  I know they introduce her here to set up her "Echo" show, but I found this character thoroughly boring and uninteresting.  If Clint and Kate are in her show, I'll probably watch.  If it's just Matt Murdock and Kingpin, I might not. I was never a fan of Kingpin on "Daredevil" and I find him very one note and not that interesting.

On 12/23/2021 at 6:38 AM, swanpride said:

Well, for starters, Carol knows Monica, and Monica and Yelena have a lot in common regarding the snap. Carol can provide Yelena the perspective of someone who "let someone down". 

Plus, we need more members for the Sex and the City fantasy....

What exactly do Monica and Yelena have in common... apart from coming back from the Blip and realising they lost a close family member?  Monica is a black woman from New Orleans (at least in the comics) who is in law enforcement / government agency.  Yelena is a Russian assassin.  They come from polar opposite backgrounds.

I wouldn't mind having more Yelena, but I don't necessarily need Carol Danvers shoehorned into everything.  Carol barely even knew Natasha.  I'm sure Laura knows more about Natasha than Carol ever did.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 12/28/2021 at 5:33 AM, Cranberry said:

Without her input, it seems like the character would be truer to how a former brainwashed assassin would act, but much less fun.

Sebastian Stan has just entered the chat.

[anna0852]

53 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Carol barely even knew Natasha.  I'm sure Laura knows more about Natasha than Carol ever did.

Endgame showed that Carol and Natasha were working together during the 5 years of the Blip. Carol might not know Nat as well as Laura or Clint (or Steve or Bruce for that matter) but they did know each other. I'd imagine Yelena would like to learn as much as she can about her sister. I'd say the same about Yelena talking to Okoye or Rhoady.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, blackwing said:

What exactly do Monica and Yelena have in common... apart from coming back from the Blip and realising they lost a close family member?  Monica is a black woman from New Orleans (at least in the comics) who is in law enforcement / government agency.  Yelena is a Russian assassin.  They come from polar opposite backgrounds.

Do characters need to have something in common to interact with each other? Carol is someone who knew Nat during the snap and I imagine Yelena would like to interact with everyone who was friends with her sister. 

10 hours ago, blackwing said:

I wouldn't mind having more Yelena, but I don't necessarily need Carol Danvers shoehorned into everything.  Carol barely even knew Natasha.  I'm sure Laura knows more about Natasha than Carol ever did.

People want to see characters they like interact. I don’t think the wish was any deeper than that. Many of us do like Carol and don’t think including her is shoehorning her in. 

It’s not about who knew someone better.  It’s not like Yelena can only interact with x number of people who knew Nat. Carol’s relationship with Nat would be different than Laura’s or Clint’s or Bruce’s. 

Edited December 31, 2021 by Guest

[greekmom]

I have to say that to date, I really enjoyed this series over Wandavision (except for the 'It was Agatha all along' song), Loki and Falcon & Winter Solider.

The storyline was tight. It flowed very well from episode to episode while the other ones they took 2 steps forward and 1 step back.

I did enjoy the Kate/Clint relationship and the  closure of Yelena's blood thirst of Clint.  I wish at the end, Clint would have invited Aunt Yelena and Kate to Christmas dinner. 

I was worried at the beginning that Clint and Laura were separated but thank goodness they are still going strong.

I still am hoping that Lilia or Cooper takes up the Hawkeye mantel since Clint is getting old.

Wonder if Maya will become an anti hero.

[Captain Carrot]

I have to say that I really enjoyed Hawkeye, and think it's the best of the Disney Plus Marvel shows. (Personally, I think Wandavision and Loki had higher highs, but they weren't as consistently good).

Here's hoping that they have the new Hawkeye and Black Widow star in a team up movie and/or show.

[Raja]

On 12/24/2021 at 8:30 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

Probably not, but I can picture a scenario where Ronin is wiping out every bad guy in NYC and costing Fisk a bunch of money. So Fisk manages to convince him/manipulate him somehow into thinking that Maya senior is the top guy who needs to be taken out. Not sure why he wouldn't go after Fisk after that, maybe Clint doesn't learn he is actually the big boss until well after the fact. Either way he could have taken out a lot of Kingpin"s guys first.

 

The problem that I have with the theory is that when Clint was talking about being late for Christmas because of the Big guy was now in the mix made it seem as if Kingpin was Agent 19's target at some point. That of course would make Fisk a variant of the one that no official knew about in Daredevil before he revealed himself.

But variant works because as a very public ex con he might be nearly as infamous as an Avenger is famous. But then Kazi needing to go out reluctantly fighting Maya does call back to the first goon of a then secret Fisk that Daredevil encountered needing to go all the way rather than face the wraith of Fisk.

[Scarlett45]

I enjoyed this series- I am super behind on all my MCU and am using the holiday weekend to catch up. 
 

This wasn’t my favorite but it was the most light hearted and fun. I loved the Christmas backdrop and the Rodger’s musical!

Lucky (aka Pizza Dog) was too cute.