The Human Beings Known as the Arnold-Klein Family

[Wellfleet]

The mystery of Zoey's last name was pretty easy to solve. In the episode Countdown to India, we see that Zoey's passport lists her last name as 'Klein'.

 

 

In the interest of further discussion, Jen's last name on Zoey's paperwork is Arnold. And Bill's middle name is Walter. And Jen's is Skyler...

 

just kidding...

 

FYI - this is Zoey's Indian passport. Her name MAY have been changed when her US adoption went through and she automatically received US citizenship. What would be conclusive to see is her US passport, which she should have received in New Delhi before they flew home to Houston. When individuals become US citizens, they are also given the opportunity for a legal name change [if they wish].

[Honey]

I'd like to know why it says William Walter Klein in the space for "Mother"  Lol

[gunderda]

I'd like to know why it says William Walter Klein in the space for "Mother"  Lol

 

If you look above Bill's (William) name it says "name of father" and then below it says "name of mother"  so the space where Bill's name is the correct spot for the Father's name.  

[wrestlesflamingos]

I think the passports from the home country will be an amazing gift for the kids to have. Its a real concrete connection to China and India with their names on it. (I do understand the passports were necessary for travel.)

[mojito]

If anyone is that interested, they might poke into Harris County records for more info.

[wrestlesflamingos]

It's ok to post links or snippets of cited information. I'd rather not have 'teasers' here, it leads to dirty searches and misinformation.

[wrestlesflamingos]

It's possible to therapeutically manage pain killers long term. It's risky but necessary for some people. As a physician, Jen would have access to other medications to chemically detox Bill should he need to ween off the drugs. I'm speculating but I'd bet that Bill has enough experience with surgery and recovery to be quite knowledgeable about medications and how they affect him.  I'd imagine he's been able to try quit a few therapies and figure out what works, if anything.

 

My thought is that Bill has been able to live a full life with obstacles and I hope he'll continue to make good decisions. If he does make a poor choice, I'd hope Jen would be there for him and to help him through it.

[Absolom]

Not everyone who takes narcotic pain killers gets addicted to them.  Most people probably do, but not all.  That makes me uncomfortable automatically assuming what Bill's future holds.  

Edited January 14, 2015 by Absolom

[walnutqueen]

He is for sure addicted.  Addiction to opiates can happen in a week, month, or a little longer and he has probably been taking them for 2 years. Post surgery he would have to continue.  He will have to rehab in some fashion to wean himself off.  Or he might have to take them if the pain isn't completely gone from the fusion.  

 If he is taking opiates then and now, he should of never been drinking.   Driving is a scary thought too and he does drive.

 

I disagree.  I was on all kinds of pain medication for 6 years, culminating in pretty heavy doses of Vicodin and Oxycontin.  I worked every day, drove, never got high or hooked and stopped one day without any withdrawal (quit the job that exacerbated the pain, in case you're wondering why).  And I have what might be considered an "addictive personality", but pain pills were just for pain, never for fun.  I decided to live with bearable pain and not do anything physical because I didn't want to chance severe liver damage.

 

Everyone is different, and with proper management, many people function quite well without the horror of addiction and rehab.  I think Bill has had a lifetime of surgery and pain management experience, and is quite capable of managing this surgery and pain as well.  I'm sure his physicians are, like most others, extremely sensitive to these issues and monitoring the situation carefully.

[ZoloftBlob]

I agree. I have a close family member who has had spinal surgery and pain management is something that her doctor takes very seriously. People who are in pain aren't taking the drugs for pleasure, they're taking them so they can live functional lives. The vast majority of people who need drugs to manage pain want the smallest dose that allows them to function without being impaired

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I guess Bill might be switching doctors from Oz to Drew! 

Edited January 14, 2015 by Foghorn Leghorn

[ZoloftBlob]

I didn't even think of him driving. Is that safe with the kids in the car?

 

As safe as anyone else taking medication while driving a car. Technically if you take a dose of cold medicine, you're really not supposed to operate heavy equipment.

[mojito]

 

It's ok to post links or snippets of cited information. I'd rather not have 'teasers' here, it leads to dirty searches and misinformation.

Wasn't meant as a teaser. I just thought rather than more wild-ass speculation, anyone who cared could check public legal records.

[joanne3482]

I'm allergic to narcotic pain medication. I took non-narcotic pain medication for several years for a herniated disk in my back (poor college kid, no money for surgery or fancy other therapies).  Not all pain medication has to be narcotic based. Narcotic pain medications may be more effective and more often prescribed, I don't know, but they are not the only pain medication option available.  

[Cherrio]

It's possible to therapeutically manage pain killers long term. It's risky but necessary for some people. As a physician, Jen would have access to other medications to chemically detox Bill should he need to ween off the drugs. I'm speculating but I'd bet that Bill has enough experience with surgery and recovery to be quite knowledgeable about medications and how they affect him.  I'd imagine he's been able to try quit a few therapies and figure out what works, if anything.

 

My thought is that Bill has been able to live a full life with obstacles and I hope he'll continue to make good decisions. If he does make a poor choice, I'd hope Jen would be their for him and to help him through it.

I agree with your post.   Especially with the numerous surgeries all of his life.  Opiates are easier to withdraw from when as you said, people want a full healthy life, rather than someone who is looking for mental relief, which Bill is not. That is, unless Jen is going overboard with the hand sanitizer, just kiddin.

      But I have to disagree with another post where they stated they just stopped (my words) with little problem.  Sure, it can happen that way, but on the other hand the number one drug problem in the United States is not illegal drugs, its prescription drugs.   Then when opiates become too expensive or hard to come by, the user will turn to heroin.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Cherrio

[LegalParrot81]

 

He is for sure addicted.

I'm sorry, but making a blanket statement that someone is addicted based on a few hours of television and absolutely no knowledge of his complete medical history, including medication history is very bothersome to me.   

Edited January 14, 2015 by LegalParrot81

[walnutqueen]

I agree with your post.   Especially with the numerous surgeries all of his life.  Opiates are easier to withdraw from when as you said, people want a full healthy life, rather than someone who is looking for mental relief, which Bill is not. That is, unless Jen is going overboard with the hand sanitizer, just kiddin.

      But I have to disagree with another post where they stated they just stopped (my words) with little problem.  Sure, it can happen that way, but on the other hand the number one drug problem in the United States is not illegal drugs, its prescription drugs.   Then when opiates become too expensive or hard to come by, the user will turn to heroin.

 

I was speaking of my own experience.  My meds were totally free and I quit "cold turkey" one day with NO problems and zero reliance on any other form of pain relief, save for icing, TENSing and total rest.  I fully recognize I am in the minority with very high level of opiate tolerance, but was making the point that chronic pain patients are getting a bad rap as liars and drug addicts.  One never seems to hear about the many people on successful opiate pain management regimes.  Also, the other side of the prescription drug problem is caused by drug addicts who can't afford or acquire their street drugs, and seek prescription drugs instead, by whatever means possible. 

 

On the other hand, these f'ing cigs will be the death of me!   :-D

[Absolom]

It's completely possible for some people to stop narcotic pain pills with zero withdrawal symptoms.  I, too, have done it multiple times.  When the pain stops, I stop the pills and there are zero side effects.  It's the same to me as if I'd been taking aspirin.  I also get no effects from the pills except pain relief and possibly mild nausea.  May Bill be fortunate also.

 

I've realized that I don't care which last name they picked for Zoey.  Whichever one it is, she'll have a family to identify with and it will be normal for her and the way her family does things.  My daughters have all done something different with their married names so perhaps I see it as one size does not fit all not even those brought up in the same household.  

[JennyMominFL]

My husband was on methadone for pain management for years until he got a Neurostimulator implant. He was never "High" If he had been than his dosage was wrong.  The doctor called him dependent not addicted. He physically needed the meds or he would get sick but there was no mental addiction. It took a full year to wean him off of Methadone. Bill could be on pain maintenance and not be drowsy or high.. Your body adjusts after a while. If you had a root canal and got vicodin, you probably shouldn't drive. If you have been on pain meds for a while you are likely fine. People drive every day on opioid maintenence. 

Edited January 15, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[Honey]

If you look above Bill's (William) name it says "name of father" and then below it says "name of mother"  so the space where Bill's name is the correct spot for the Father's name.  

Oh okay.  I didn't se that.  I saw name of mother and name of spouse.

[Honey]

Not everyone who takes narcotic pain killers gets addicted to them.  Most people probably do, but not all.  That makes me uncomfortable automatically assuming what Bill's future holds.  

You're right.

I took Vicodin for a year for back problems.  It never gave me a high feeling.  All it did was take away my pain.  I had no problem stopping when the time came.  My doctor told me to use my own judgment about driving.  It was definitely safer for me to take my pill and drive pain free, than to drive wracked with pain.

Edited January 14, 2015 by Honey

[Honey]

It's completely possible for some people to stop narcotic pain pills with zero withdrawal symptoms.  I, too, have done it multiple times.  When the pain stops, I stop the pills and there are zero side effects.  It's the same to me as if I'd been taking aspirin.  I also get no effects from the pills except pain relief and possibly mild nausea.  May Bill be fortunate also.

 

I've realized that I don't care which last name they picked for Zoey.  Whichever one it is, she'll have a family to identify with and it will be normal for her and the way her family does things.  My daughters have all done something different with their married names so perhaps I see it as one size does not fit all not even those brought up in the same household.  

That is exactly how I feel about it.  It doesn't say anything about who loves who more.  It's just the way they have chosen to do it and I don't think the kids will even think twice about it.  If they did however, get to an older age and they wanted the same name, I have no doubt that Jen and Bill would make whatever change the kids wanted.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I think that, in and of itself, Zoey's last name doesn't matter. However, if her name is indeed Arnold, it's just another indication that Zoey is with Jen and Will is with Bill. When you add this to the choice of Godparents and the fact that we rarely see Bill do anything with Zoey, or Jen do anything with Will, in my opinion, in totality, all of these things show a divide in the family. A divide that I personally, don't think is good for the children.

 

I agree mostly because the children are adopted and there is a greater need to build unity and it starts with their names and new identities.  

Edited January 14, 2015 by Foghorn Leghorn

[CousinAmy]

I think that, in and of itself, Zoey's last name doesn't matter. However, if her name is indeed Arnold, it's just another indication that Zoey is with Jen and Will is with Bill. When you add this to the choice of Godparents and the fact that we rarely see Bill do anything with Zoey, or Jen do anything with Will, in my opinion, in totality, all of these things show a divide in the family. A divide that I personally, don't think is good for the children.

This has been thoroughly debunked. It's not an indication of anything, except that someone on the Internet was trolling. 

[mojito]

 

I'm sorry, but making a blanket statement that someone is addicted based on a few hours of television and absolutely no knowledge of his complete medical history, including medication history is very bothersome to me.

It's worrisome to me. Based on minimal information of the Kleins, some people can make judgments on Jen's love for her son, her blind ambition, and Bill's addiction to drugs. They'll even perpetuate rumors. Scary. I can only hope that Will and Zoey and most of our children will be raised to require more information before making judgments on other people.

[ZoloftBlob]

Well, he was on Oz talking about his pain medication, but as near as I can tell, he didn't specifically mention what he was taking. There are some pain meds out there that aren't opiates, so no one specifically knows what Bill may be taking but he did discuss using pain medication.

 

There's also no indication he was drinking while using opiate based medication. There's also no indication that he was driving while high on any sort of pain meds, narcotics or not - as several people have now said, there are legitmate reasons for people to use pain medication and doctors do carefully monitor people in chronic pain to make sure their med levels are appropriate. Many people drive while using pain medications, including narcotics. As I said, its as dangerous as anyone driving on cold meds - the warning labels tell you not to but its not expressly against the law.

[wrestlesflamingos]

This thread is for general chatting about the show. Some speculation is fine.  Imaging things or making accusations without a reasonable basis is not ok. Personal attacks are not ok. I deeply dislike reminding adults to use manners and deleting posts. This is fair warning that the forum will be locked if the tone doesn't change. No more personal attacks and wild speculation. Thank you.

Edited January 15, 2015 by wrestlesflamingos
typos

[Trixie Belden]

Getting back to Bill and his professional life, I know he has the pet store but I thought he mentioned still having at least a financial interest, if not full partnership, in some businesses back up north.  It seems like it was the episode where he went camping with his friend, his friend being someone he's still in business with.  I'm not going to go searching legal records or anything, but it seems very plausible to me that even if he's not in the pet store full time, he's working on other interests while he's at home.

[ZoloftBlob]

Oh I think Bill has interests in other businesses the same way Matt Roloff does...

 

In other words, I suspect most of his current business work is managing the tv related stuff.

[CousinAmy]

Oh I think Bill has interests in other businesses the same way Matt Roloff does...

 

In other words, I suspect most of his current business work is managing the tv related stuff.

I think that's a good idea. The show and its offshoots, the speaking engagements and such, are a great way to maximize income, especially if they are bringing in more money than the pet store.

[Lillybee]

What I see when I watch this show is two physically challenged people try to do their best for tow physically challenged children and showing us their struggles. Go Jen and Bill, I think that the both of you are doing a great job.

[EtheltoTillie]

All that talk about names got me thinking. Klein means little in German. So they are really the Little couple.

[KateUK]

I'm not sure what season I am watching here in the UK, the episode I've just watched featured Jens first Mothers Day, Bill being a stay at home dad, they are looking for a nanny and their daughter isn't with them yet, guess I am a long way behind?

 

I think Bill and Jen are great, love Bills humour and Jen seems such a lovely person.

 

I do feel sorry for Jen though, Bill seems to have a very laid back natural rapport with Will to which Will responds  very well, plus of course Bill...at the moment....is with him all day, I just feel that Jen seems a bit 'out of things', Will doesn't respond to her as well as he does Bill.

 

I hope this does get better for her, she loves Will so much.

[KateUK]

Well have finally finished reading all of this thread and it would seem that my concerns of Jen and Will not bonding too well was justified.

 

Also on the last show I viewed they had gone out for a walk and Will 'took off' running and Jen couldn't keep up with him, now obviously there was a film crew there so the child was safe but it did make me question how because of Jens stature could she really look after him on her own, maybe she doesn't.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Well have finally finished reading all of this thread and it would seem that my concerns of Jen and Will not bonding too well was justified.

 

Also on the last show I viewed they had gone out for a walk and Will 'took off' running and Jen couldn't keep up with him, now obviously there was a film crew there so the child was safe but it did make me question how because of Jens stature could she really look after him on her own, maybe she doesn't.

 

I guess that was the day Will and Jen went for a walk and Will decided he would go after the cars, ran then he sat down refusing to move and kept trying to head that way.  Jen had no control, he was too heavy to lift and too stubborn to listen.  You can see passersby watching but she didn't ask for help then miraculously she ends up back with Bill and her parents?  They never showed us how they got Will back there without a big person picking him up and simply saying NO means NO Will!  We are not shown or told how they do the daily tasks when the kids physically can't be controlled by them or defy them.  The education aspect of the show died and was replaced by another "e" word.....entertainment.  

 

They have Kate (nanny)  Mon-Fri daytime and she appears to travel on their many trips along with Judy and Dave.  I suspect someone lives in the garage apartment and does the evening activities of bathing as the sink Will used to bathe in would likely be too small now.  I don't recall seeing a bath tub when they designed the house but there could be one but Bill and Jen are still too small to handle Will there and if Will doesn't cooperate then watch out.  We have seen Judy take Zoey and say I'll bath her like she is saving Jen some work.  

[Lillybee]

When Bill was recovering from his surgery, he did say something about no longer being able to bathe the kids; so I guess that he was in charge of bathtime.

[ZoloftBlob]

I have to be honest - they have a nanny, nannies bathe children. They're open about having a nanny, and they don't do a lot of the "children bathing" stuff on the show anyway (I suspect they learned that lesson from the Gosselins) but is it really a mystery needing to be solved that the *nanny* they openly acknowledge hiring does child related chores?

 

I mean, what is the nanny for? The entire point of the job is to care for children.

[Wellfleet]

All that talk about names got me thinking. Klein means little in German. So they are really the Little couple.

 

Interesting. History says we got our last names from what our families looked like or did for a living in the past. For example, the "Taylors" of the world had ancestors who once did tailoring, the "Coopers" made barrels, the "Millers" ground flour, the "Bakers" baked etc etc. Makes me wonder if there could have been another little person in the Klein family history.

[Wellfleet]

I'm not sure what season I am watching here in the UK, the episode I've just watched featured Jens first Mothers Day, Bill being a stay at home dad, they are looking for a nanny and their daughter isn't with them yet, guess I am a long way behind?

 

I think Bill and Jen are great, love Bills humour and Jen seems such a lovely person.

 

I do feel sorry for Jen though, Bill seems to have a very laid back natural rapport with Will to which Will responds  very well, plus of course Bill...at the moment....is with him all day, I just feel that Jen seems a bit 'out of things', Will doesn't respond to her as well as he does Bill.

 

I hope this does get better for her, she loves Will so much.

 

Not to mention that Bill is very lax with Will in the discipline department. That could also be coloring Will's preference for Baba, since Jen at least TRIES to be firm with him on occasions. It may be going on off-camera, but so far we have seen absolutely no indication of Bill firmly-disciplining Will. The closest he came was taking away his Easter egg coloring wand for a few moments, but he did end up giving it back to him shortly afterward. I think overall Bill is a terrific individual, very funny, very accomplished and articulate, very well-adjusted etc.  But he does have an Achilles heel. At this point Bill seems to be unwilling to be anything but Daddy & Best Buddy to both kids. And unfortunately, a good father needs to do many things - from time to time - that will make his kids - temporarily - unhappy with him. Because those things are necessary in the child's best interest and for his future happiness. 

[KateUK]

I have been cutting Bill a little slack so far regarding his parenting, being behind you guys with viewing at the moment I can understand they wanted Will to feel 'at home' and settled, and they are new parents after all.

 

But I remember watching them put Will to bed, think it was his first night home with them, they were fussing around, Jen was all 'it's ok buddy' and Bill was all 'oh look at this, look at that', Will was tired and obviously needed to sleep and I thought 'ok guys, enough now', just let him settle, no need for both of you in his room you are stimulating him too much he needs to be calmed down not hyped up.

 

Just watched the new car episode, makes me laugh how those huge vehicles are called mini vans over there! 

 

Anyway was all to do with Jen taking the kids out on her own, like there is anyway that she could manage to do that really, whizzo lift or seats coming out of the car, it really isn't going to happen is it.

 

I think Bill and Jen will be good parents, but certainly in Jens case, because of her size she can't be that much of a hands on mum I wouldn't have thought.

[mbutterfly]

I have to be honest - they have a nanny, nannies bathe children. They're open about having a nanny, and they don't do a lot of the "children bathing" stuff on the show anyway (I suspect they learned that lesson from the Gosselins) but is it really a mystery needing to be solved that the *nanny* they openly acknowledge hiring does child related chores?

 

I mean, what is the nanny for? The entire point of the job is to care for children.

That's my take as well. They have sufficient money to hire a nanny. The nanny does what nannies typically do. They must be fine with just one nanny plus the Arnolds. This is a story about people who have this life style which -- given their size -- seems ideal. Will is getting to an age where he shouldn't need to have someone bathe him, just some assistance and to be nearby for safety sake. He's at the age when all 8 of my grandchildren loved to play in the bathtub. 

[Fostersmom]

 

I don't recall seeing a bath tub when they designed the house but there could be one but Bill and Jen are still too small to handle Will there and if Will doesn't cooperate then watch out.  We have seen Judy take Zoey and say I'll bath her like she is saving Jen some work.

 

Well, I highly doubt Jen and Bill bathe in the sink, so I'm going to safely say there is a bathtub somewhere in the house. Probably multiple tubs. I could see there being a nice walk in shower in the master bath, but probably not in every bathroom. 

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Well, I highly doubt Jen and Bill bathe in the sink, so I'm going to safely say there is a bathtub somewhere in the house. Probably multiple tubs. I could see there being a nice walk in shower in the master bath, but probably not in every bathroom. 

 

 Their own bathroom was shown during the building of their house and was custom to their size as well of course.  I recall a bench, low shower head and maybe steps into a shallow tub, not sure.  Will understands playing in the bubbles but after wearing pullups all day and cleaning off his private parts properly...NO!

 

Kate isn't there in the evenings to bathe the kids so it must be Judy especially when Bill is unable to lift even Zoey now.     

Edited January 21, 2015 by Foghorn Leghorn

[wrestlesflamingos]

The cribs are likely modified to allow Jen or Bill to remove the children without lifting them out. It's probably a hinged door on the front that opens like a barn door. If Will is already in a regular bed, fire safety gets even easier.

[ZoloftBlob]

I would think that someone is close by at night in case of an emergency. If there was a fire, God forbid, they would need help to get everyone out of the house quickly.

 

Amy Roloff managed without someone at night. She had twins and a quite handicapped husband and managed to bathe them without assistance, and that family didn't have money for a nanny until long after the boys theoretically knew how to wash themselves. Millions of people with handicaps are allowed to live alone, or with their children and no nannies without special fire guards and helpers for every emergency. I mean really, deaf people can't hear the fire alarm so they also need special employed night guards because god forbid the house is on fire and they don't hear the alarm?

 

What do you think people who aren't on reality shows who do have handicaps and children do? Aside from give up their kids to CPS because they can't provide safe homes?

[gunderda]

As someone already stated up above - in the episode after Bill had surgery they stated that because of his surgery he could no longer do bath time with the kids. I can't remember who they said was doing it while he was out of commission.  I would imagine at that point maybe they would bring in Kate or Jen's mom/dad.  And when kids are that young they maybe have a bath what, every few days?  Although with Jen being a little OCD I wouldn't put it past her to want them to have a bathe every night.

 

And it wouldn't surprise me if they figured out a setup to where the kids could get into the tub themselves.  

 

When kids have parents with limitations the kids learn and adjust.  I grew up with a kid whose mom was in a terrible car accident and ever since he was really really young his mom was not able to hold or carry him. Of course they had their dad, but he always said that as a young child he was very aware of his mom's condition. 

[gunderda]

Amy Roloff managed without someone at night. She had twins and a quite handicapped husband and managed to bathe them without assistance, and that family didn't have money for a nanny until long after the boys theoretically knew how to wash themselves. Millions of people with handicaps are allowed to live alone, or with their children and no nannies without special fire guards and helpers for every emergency. I mean really, deaf people can't hear the fire alarm so they also need special employed night guards because god forbid the house is on fire and they don't hear the alarm?

 

What do you think people who aren't on reality shows who do have handicaps and children do? Aside from give up their kids to CPS because they can't provide safe homes?

It kinda cracks me up that people think Bill and Jen MUST have help - how else could they survive?? When there are a lot of little people families in this world and I'm sure they survive just fine.  Especially since Bill and Jen have a house catering to their height whereas most people in their situation likely can't afford that luxury or don't want to do it (ie, "7 little Johnstons).  These people were able to raise kids somehow!

I am not an expert on this issue, but I believe that if people need help, and it's a safety issue, the government will provide assistance. If people can't afford the services that they need to keep themselves and their children safe, doesn't the state pay? I believe that PA paid for Kate Gosselin to have a nanny because of safety concerns for the sextuplets.

I don't know either - but if that's correct it's likely something that you have to request and I doubt Bill and Jen would ever think about asking for government assistance. 

[joanne3482]

Amy Roloff managed without someone at night. She had twins and a quite handicapped husband and managed to bathe them without assistance, and that family didn't have money for a nanny until long after the boys theoretically knew how to wash themselves.

 

Plus one of Amy's twins was not a little person. So at somewhere around 7 or 8 (using average height charts) Jeremy was taller than Amy. At age 4, Will's age, he was just 4 inches shorter than she is. 

 

And it wouldn't surprise me if they figured out a setup to where the kids could get into the tub themselves.

 

 

 

This is about the age where they are able to start doing stuff on their own like get in and out of the tub. Heck, they might just shower with their parents. My bestie and her husband did with their kids when they were about Zoey's age. 

[Absolom]

I am not an expert on this issue, but I believe that if people need help, and it's a safety issue, the government will provide assistance. If people can't afford the services that they need to keep themselves and their children safe, doesn't the state pay? I believe that PA paid for Kate Gosselin to have a nanny because of safety concerns for the sextuplets.

 

The only programs I'm aware of are for the immediate care of extremely disabled people who are on SSI (what used to be welfare).  There are no programs that I've heard of for well to do people to care for their children. 

 

Kate Gosselin had a night nurse from the state for the first year because the infants were medically fragile and qualified medically. 

[Honey]

Plus one of Amy's twins was not a little person. So at somewhere around 7 or 8 (using average height charts) Jeremy was taller than Amy. At age 4, Will's age, he was just 4 inches shorter than she is. 

 

 

 

This is about the age where they are able to start doing stuff on their own like get in and out of the tub. Heck, they might just shower with their parents. My bestie and her husband did with their kids when they were about Zoey's age. 

Parents showing with kids of the opposite sex, just seems odd to me.