S13.E03: Chapter Three: Once, Upon Time

[DanaK]

Quote

'Time is beginning to run wild.' On a planet that shouldn’t exist, in the aftermath of apocalypse, the Doctor, Dan, Yaz and Vinder face a battle to survive.

Premieres Sunday, November 14, 2021. Starts at 6:30pm on BBC1 in the UK and runs for 49 minutes; starts at 8pm ET on BBC America in the US and runs until 9:11pm ET, and also streams on AMC+

Written by Chris Chibnall

Directed by Azhur Saleem

Cast list: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0011nfd

 

Edited November 10, 2021 by DanaK

[Llywela]

So much for resolving the cliffhanger within 30 seconds! That was all properly intriguing. The weakest episode of the season so far, bit intriguing.

I don't like the Timeless Child storyline, and I especially don't like the way that storyline was unfolded last season. I don't like having the Doctor's backstory messed around with all over again, feel quite strongly that a pre-Hartnell incarnation should not be using the name 'Doctor', and have all kinds of other issues with it all. But I do like Jo Martin's Doctor, a lot. So I enjoyed seeing her again here, and getting a bit of her story filled in.

The timey-wimeyness of this episode made my head spin - especially the strand where Karvanista was working with the Martin!Doctor way back. When did all that happen (in the greater timeline of the universe, I mean, as opposed to the Doctor's personal timeline) for him to still be knocking around, rescuing people and being grumpy about it in the 'present'? Answers on a postcard, please.

I definitely like Vinder a lot more than I like Dan. Jacob Anderson is just a better actor than John Bishop. With Bishop, I am always aware of him acting, so to speak. Also, Vinder's story is a lot more interesting than Dan's (and Yaz's, for that matter). I've wanted a companion from some other time and/or planet ever since New Who was launched. Shame they've already parted company (although we already know he'll be back).

I had trouble figuring out the timeline of Vinder's story, mind. Bel is the complication, specifically her saying she is pregnant with his child. Because she doesn't look pregnant. Yet in his intro, Vinder seemed to have been at his outpost for a long time already. And Bel's journey seen here seemed like it should have taken a long time, also. I just feel like if they were together before all the events of Vinder's backstory and Bel's journey that we saw in this episode, and conceived a child at that time, Bel really should be bigger by now!

I loved that Vinder's immediate reaction to seeing inside the TARDIS was to recognise it as a TARDIS. That's a new one!

I really like Bel's little handheld pad thingy and would like one of my own, please.

I also feel like those guns Bel was using should be standard issue for anyone who has to fight Cybermen from now on, since a major feature of Cybermen stories is usually how impervious they are to gunfire and how difficult they are to destroy. Bel had no trouble gunning down a whole squadron of them here!

I would really like for Yaz to have more to do than feel aggrieved that the Doctor isn't explaining things to her. I mean, it's a valid complaint that is clearly leading somewhere, it just isn't much of a storyline for her to be going on with, doesn't give the actress much to get her teeth into.

Also, we all called it that Diane would be in Passenger. I didn't see anyone guessing the exact function of Passenger, but I did see lots of people figuring out that Diane would be in there.

Can't believe we're halfway through the season already.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Llywela

[HauntedBathroom]

That was 50 minutes of running on the spot, wasting everyone's time. I though Chibbs was supposed to have got better in the year he spent examining his navel fluff?

[Ceindreadh]

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

I had trouble figuring out the timeline of Vinder's story, mind. Bel is the complication, specifically her saying she is pregnant with his child. Because she doesn't look pregnant. Yet in his intro, Vinder seemed to have been at his outpost for a long time already. And Bel's journey seen here seemed like it should have taken a long time, also. I just feel like if they were together before all the events of Vinder's backstory and Bel's journey that we saw in this episode, and conceived a child at that time, Bel really should be bigger by now!

I loved that Vinder's immediate reaction to seeing inside the TARDIS was to recognise it as a TARDIS. That's a new one!

I really like Bel's little handheld pad thingy and would like one of my own, please.

 

 

We don't know how closely related to humans Vinder and Bel are. 

Maybe gestation takes a lot longer for them. 

[HouseofBeck]

How could Yaz have looked away from the Angel without it coming closer? Thing looked like it hadn’t moved when Yaz looked away as the Doctor disappeared. If it wasn’t truly there, then all the cautions were less meaningful.

 

[DanaK]

Well that was trippy and I know I didn't understand everything, but I really enjoyed it, especially seeing Jo Martin again and getting some of the Doctor's backstory, along with getting to see some Daleks in a cameo, some Angels hanging about and Cybermen in a fight. Bel and Vinder's story tied together and we got his backstory and it was emotional. Plus, that was one heck of a cliffhanger ending with the Angels. Given the comments from the director and producers about the episode in Doctor Who Magazine, I was expecting a twisty, confusing story, so I managed to weather it fairly well with some patience. But questions were raised that weren't answered immediately, including that woman near the end; hopefully we'll get some answers by the end

My AMC+ stream seemed to have trouble with the video being blurred or pixilated throughout; anyone else get that? I rewatched about the last 20 minutes on BBC America and the video seemed fine

 

[ElleryAnne]

47 minutes ago, HouseofBeck said:

How could Yaz have looked away from the Angel without it coming closer? Thing looked like it hadn’t moved when Yaz looked away as the Doctor disappeared. If it wasn’t truly there, then all the cautions were less meaningful.

 

Yes, that bugged me, too.  If nothing else, they could have edited that part better.  

 

I want more of Vinder.  He had the most interesting timeline thread, and Jacob Anderson is really good in the role.  It was a bit jarring to me how quickly the Doctor was all, "'kay, bye now" to him when they dropped him off on his destroyed planet.  At least she did give him a way to reach her again, but still.  

I suspected early on that Bel was pregnant because of the monitoring, but it didn't realize she'd turn out to be Vinder's wife/girlfriend.  

I think my expectations for this episode were higher than they should have been, because of some things I'd read about how well it would take things to a cohesive wrap-up.  I mean, it did pull some things into a wrap-up, but it wasn't an extraordinary bit of storytelling or anything.  Still, I liked the episode overall, even if it was uneven.  

[John Potts]

If The Flux is a traditional "Old Who" Serial, then this reminded me of a classic middle "run around" episode where the Doctor and/or his Companions run around multiple corridors (or in fact, multiple copies of the same corridor!) that existed mainly to fill out an episode while achieving little. Now, TBF, we did get some developments - we get to see it was the Doctor (I guess we are now going to have to call Jo Martin's Doctor "Zero" now she's appeared more than once, though there are multiple Regenerations before that) who trapped Swarm and co in the first place and I did like the fact that (apparently) it was Swarm's plan for the Doctor to restore the Guardians(?) on Atropos - I do like a villain that is actually clever, it makes their defeat more satisfying.

I thought Swarm was played by the same actor playing Vinder's boss (The Grand Serpent), but not according to IMDB (Swarm is played by Sam Spruell while the Grand Serpent is Craig Parkinson), so that probably blows my theory of them turning out to be the same person (in a suitably Timey-Wimey way). I'm also wondering if the Weeping Angel is going to turn out to help the Doctor defeat Swarm & co - shared cultural heritage and all that. But my last speculation was completely wrong, so maybe not.

[DanaK]

Overnight ratings: 3.76 million, down from 3.96 million from last week, and 4th most watched program of the night

[sugarbaker design]

5 hours ago, DanaK said:

Overnight ratings: 3.76 million, down from 3.96 million from last week, and 4th most watched program of the night

Is  that good or bad?

[cardigirl]

This episode wasn't as edge-of-my-seat good as the first two, but I still enjoyed it. Who knows (ha!) if the timey-wimey stuff will make sense by the arc end. It still was interesting to see Jo Martin again. 

I'm desperately afraid for Vinder's chances of surviving the arc, now that his "family" has shown up. Rarely does everyone get to live in Doctor Who. And I like Vinder.  And I like his baby momma.  

I like Dan, but he didn't have a lot to do this episode, so hopefully he'll be more fully fleshed out in the next 3. 

Also, is Time fixed now?  I'll have to watch the episode again. 

And please help me out here.  There are only 3 more episodes with Jodie as the Doctor, plus 2 (3) specials?  Does that mean that Dan is only a sort of companion for this season? 

It's going by too quickly!  🐱‍🐉

Edited November 15, 2021 by cardigirl

[DanaK]

39 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

This episode wasn't as edge-of-my-seat good as the first two, but I still enjoyed it. Who knows (ha!) if the timey-wimey stuff will make sense by the arc end. It still was interesting to see Jo Martin again. 

I'm desperately afraid for Vinder's chances of surviving the arc, now that his "family" has shown up. Rarely does everyone get to live in Doctor Who. And I like Vinder.  And I like his baby momma.  

I like Dan, but he didn't have a lot to do this episode, so hopefully he'll be more fully fleshed out in the next 3. 

Also, is Time fixed now?  I'll have to watch the episode again. 

And please help me out here.  There are only 3 more episodes with Jodie as the Doctor, plus 2 (3) specials?  Does that mean that Dan is only a sort of companion for this season? 

It's going by too quickly!  🐱‍🐉

3 more episodes of Series 13: Flux left (yes, too quickly), then 3 specials next year.

I think Time is sort of fixed, but a bit corrupted as Swarm said. I had trouble understanding that part

I fully expect Vinder to be 6 feet under by the time this is done. Or alternatively, he could be reunited with Bel at the end. Thaddea Graham certainly made her mark this week

 

55 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

Is  that good or bad?

Good, as the drop was about 5% from last week and it's a good rank. I was fearful a bunch of viewers would flee after the first half's confusing nature. But hopefully they stayed to enjoy RuthDoc, the Angels, the Daleks cameo, the Cybermen, and the rest. Maybe those will entice more people to tune in for the 7-day and 28-day numbers

Edited November 15, 2021 by DanaK

[Maren]

I have to rewatch this because I didn't have captions yet and it was hard for me to understand them all. Shows SERIOUSLY need to stop playing music and special effects so dang loud they drown out voices!!

This is the first Chibnall story I'm actually enjoying. I'm kind of surprised LOL.

I still am not fond of Jodie's portrayal but she's not as bad for me as previously in this season. It definitely helps not seeing her run around, calling her companions "fam."

Ruth has still just got such a presence on screen, even for such a little bit of time!! I was so glad to see Jo back!!

Guys!! I never even thought of Vinder dying!! Noooo!! :-( I want him and her (I didn't catch her name, no captions!) to be reuinited!! I loved her. Just acting by herself and again, she had charisma and spark and made me root for her! (Was the actress in the Irregulars?)

And the ANGELS!!

I am really hoping rewatching with CC helps me understand the story a little better tho. The Time stuff was a bit confusing.

[cardigirl]

31 minutes ago, Maren said:

I have to rewatch this because I didn't have captions yet and it was hard for me to understand them all. Shows SERIOUSLY need to stop playing music and special effects so dang loud they drown out voices!!

This is the first Chibnall story I'm actually enjoying. I'm kind of surprised LOL.

I still am not fond of Jodie's portrayal but she's not as bad for me as previously in this season. It definitely helps not seeing her run around, calling her companions "fam."

Ruth has still just got such a presence on screen, even for such a little bit of time!! I was so glad to see Jo back!!

Guys!! I never even thought of Vinder dying!! Noooo!! :-( I want him and her (I didn't catch her name, no captions!) to be reuinited!! I loved her. Just acting by herself and again, she had charisma and spark and made me root for her! (Was the actress in the Irregulars?)

And the ANGELS!!

I am really hoping rewatching with CC helps me understand the story a little better tho. The Time stuff was a bit confusing.

The character's name is Bel, and thank you for making me go look her up.  She was great, considering she was all alone (except for the baby monitor) and didn't really have anyone to act with.   Also, thanks for reminding me where I knew her from. She was in the Irregulars! 

[Eulipian 5k]

The madcap way so many stories ran together and that everything means "run for your life!", really gives an inkling of what a "pudding brain" must feel like trying to keep up with the Doctor. It's like being on those off screen adventures we sometimes see them emerging from at the beginning of episodes. They go straight from the off screen into the adventure we're watching.

[MissLucas]

Well that was a confusing but enjoyable ride (not helped by the fact that I skipped the last couple of seasons and only know about the timeless child by reading reviews).

Was hooked from the moment I saw Bel because I remembered the actress, took me a while but she was the lead character in The Irregulars. Thaddea Graham is very good at playing fierce characters with a warm and vulnerable side (but even she could not save that show). I did not figure out that Bel was looking for Vinder but that twist made me very happy. Totally invested in these two now. Vinder's backstory was also great and I liked that he immediately knew he was looking inside a Tardis - for once no 'bigger on the inside' discussion.

Space and time are at war with each other? That's certainly an interesting concept. I wonder who Barbary Flynn's character was supposed to be. And an Angel piloting the Tardis? That should be interesting!

[gail56]

Doctor Ruth!!! Give me more Doctor Ruth!! She is the only thing about the Timeless child nonsense that I like.  I did like this episode. It was fun but could have used more Doctor Ruth. Can you tell I love Doctor Ruth? 😉

[angora]

20 hours ago, Maren said:

Guys!! I never even thought of Vinder dying!! Noooo!! :-( I want him and her (I didn't catch her name, no captions!) to be reuinited!! I loved her. Just acting by herself and again, she had charisma and spark and made me root for her! (Was the actress in the Irregulars?)

Very true, and interestingly, I had the same reaction to Vinder in episode 1. Just him in that outpost all on his own, recording his logs and talking to the computer, his personality still came through and I was invested in his story. Really hoping these two find each other! Vinder's backstory in this episode was great (and yes, delightful that he knew what a TARDIS was - and wanted to pilot it!), and Bel's confrontation with that Cyberman was awesome.

That said, I do feel like I've learned more about Vinder in three episodes than I've learned about Yaz in more than two seasons, and that's an issue. The Doctor and Vinder's timestream storylines here were just that, storylines, albeit with added time-trippiness. But Yaz and Dan's were like 90% trippiness, 10% nuts-and-bolts plot bits (the Angels for Yaz to lead into next week's episode, Dan's scenes with Di to remind us that she needs rescuing,) without revealing much of anything about the characters themselves. The actors playing Thirteen's companions have all been perfectly capable, but throughout, the writing has given them little to hold onto. For an episode like this, I would've liked to see everyone get meaningful content in their timestream stuff.

I'm a little wary of Swarm/Azure and the whole "dark secret at the heart of Time" thing, or whatever ominous warnings they have going on. It feels a bit repetitive of last season, with the destruction of Gallifrey and the Master's hinting about the Timeless Child. Even if it's about a different subject, I'm not super interested in deep dark secrets that place the Doctor smack in the middle of the Biggest Deal to Ever Deal.

Finally, I refuse to call the blue glowy things particles of time force, because when I saw them/the way they moved earlier in the episode, I mentally called them time starlings, and I'm too attached to that name to give it up for something boring like particles.

 

[Eulipian 5k]

Last episode we visited Crimea

This week we get the back story of Vinder, who was some kind of military officer who was told, by the Grand Serpent, to turn off the recording of diplomatic conversation in which the Serpent proposed illegal actions, (murders). The officer filed a whistleblower complaint and was subsequently punished. (Without violating the policy of identifying political figures), Given what was happening IRL when this episode was being written, I think the Chibs was sneaking in some contempurary political commentary!  Will the Who ultras go ape?

 

[Eulipian 5k]

On 11/14/2021 at 2:52 PM, Llywela said:

And Bel's journey seen here seemed like it should have taken a long time, also. I just feel like if they were together before all the events of Vinder's backstory and Bel's journey that we saw in this episode, and conceived a child at that time, Bel really should be bigger by now!

Didn't we see a (beloved) Series 11 episode where a male gave birth? Maybe Bel's gestation cycle isn't 9 months, on their planet?

This series is rich with BBC merchandise; we got Bel's Tamagotchi baby monitor, and a new "Angels have the TARDIS" t-shirts on order!

[ElleryAnne]

1 hour ago, angora said:

Finally, I refuse to call the blue glowy things particles of time force, because when I saw them/the way they moved earlier in the episode, I mentally called them time starlings, and I'm too attached to that name to give it up for something boring like particles.

Time starlings is much better.  I'm totally using that.

[JustHereForFood]

I really enjoyed the jumps that Doctor and companions did after going into the time storm, from what initially looked like a mission in the future but turned out to be a mission from Doctor's past incarnation, to all the different bits from the others' lives that they kept jumping to and from. And since it was a bit confusing, I didn't mind Doctor explaining what she was doing in that time storm when talking to the Mori.

I would welcome more of stuff like this in DW in general, since we rarely explore what it means to be a Time Lord/Lady besides travelling in a timemachine that everyone could theoretically pilot. In the very first episode, 9th Doctor had that great speech about how he could feel the universe moving through time, but we rarely explore stuff like that.

Good job on using regular actors for several parts this episode. I guess it was probably because of the budget or covid.

On 11/14/2021 at 8:52 PM, Llywela said:

I had trouble figuring out the timeline of Vinder's story, mind. Bel is the complication, specifically her saying she is pregnant with his child. Because she doesn't look pregnant. Yet in his intro, Vinder seemed to have been at his outpost for a long time already. And Bel's journey seen here seemed like it should have taken a long time, also. I just feel like if they were together before all the events of Vinder's backstory and Bel's journey that we saw in this episode, and conceived a child at that time, Bel really should be bigger by now!

I though the same and it got me thinking about that thing that I kept calling a tamagochi. That was supposed to be her talking to her child/fetus, right? Assuming that it is not just some application where she keeps a journal for it, maybe that fetus is somehow stored in that? Or somewhere else and she is really communicating with it, not just metaphorically? She did say unborn child, but maybe it is in some sort of incubator somewhere, frozen in time? She did some unnecessary stunts in the episode that she could probably avoid if she was physically pregnant.

On 11/15/2021 at 2:52 AM, HouseofBeck said:

How could Yaz have looked away from the Angel without it coming closer? Thing looked like it hadn’t moved when Yaz looked away as the Doctor disappeared. If it wasn’t truly there, then all the cautions were less meaningful.

The angels tend to move at different speed each episode they appear in, I think. Wasn't it mentioned in the first 11th Doctor episode they appeared in that they cannot really sense whether you are looking at them or not and are sort of guessing? And since they can't look at each other and constantly cover their eyes when others are nearby, it might be harder for them to move quickly if there is more of them at the same place and they have to guess when you are not looking.

[benteen]

Also not a fan of The Timeless Child storyline and missing Doctor,'s but like Jo Martin's Doctor a lot.  Jodie was given good material too and this was a fun story.  Enjoy seeing all various alien races here.

[Affogato]

On 11/14/2021 at 2:52 PM, Llywela said:

I had trouble figuring out the timeline of Vinder's story, mind. Bel is the complication, specifically her saying she is pregnant with his child. Because she doesn't look pregnant. Yet in his intro, Vinder seemed to have been at his outpost for a long time already. And Bel's journey seen here seemed like it should have taken a long time, also. I just feel like if they were together before all the events of Vinder's backstory and Bel's journey that we saw in this episode, and conceived a child at that time, Bel really should be bigger by now!

 

I'm guessing there is some kind of time thing going on that we aren't aware of yet.

[Bruinsfan]

I thought it was interesting that the Doctor was much more short and authoritarian with Yaz than we've seen her previously. Felt like a bit of Twelve bleeding through (or was it Zero?), and I like little throwaway bits that link the current version to previous Doctors.

[tennisgurl]

This was probably the weakest of the season so far but I still thought it was a fun ride. I am still not sure what is going on but it does seem to be leading somewhere so I am alright with being confused as long as we get a good payoff. I wonder if the Weeping Angels are somehow connected with these time people, and that's why they keep showing up? Have we ever really gotten a backstory on them? The only downside is that this seems like its connected with the Timeless Child story which I really do not like, I am always wary of big retcons that change fundamental things about the Doctor, I have kind of hoped that it would be ignored like when the Doctor said that he was part human in the TV movie. But I guess if they really want to go there they have to really go there, and it at least means we get to see more of Jo Martin's Doctor, who is awesome. 

I really like Vinder and Bell and I am really disappointed that Vinder was already dropped off, although it does seem like they will pop up again. I have been hoping for a companion who is from the future or past or another planet or anyone who isn't a modern day person from the UK for ages, I think he could have been an interesting addition to the team. Him traveling around looking for Bell while having adventures would be good subplot. He has certainly made more of impression in this arc then Dan or Yaz so far, who are perfectly fine but haven't gotten to do very much. 

The timey-wimey was very strong in this episode, time really did seem like it was being turned into a balloon animal as the Doctor and company were all floating around in the time stream, plus finding out that a bunch of stuff happened or did not happen in different times that no one can remember. 

I hope that, like with the Sontarans last week, that this could make the Weeping Angels scary again. Granted, they're always creepy as fuck, but they got overused to the point where they were more ridiculous then scary, especially when they became the Statue of Liberty (seriously, why) so hopefully we can get them back to the threats they used to be. 

Edited November 17, 2021 by tennisgurl

[DoctorAtomic]

I speculated before that the Angels aren't necessarily the 'bad guys' in this story, and I'm still on board. This one popped up and started driving the TARDIS. It could have easily gotten to the three of them. Also, I have to question the Doctor in getting them all together. I think you'd want to surround the Angel someone is always staring at it. That way if someone blinks and they move to them, the others can hold it in place and that person can move. I'm guessing the Angel is taking them to the tunnels in the 1820s. We've seen the old guy a few times now, and it seems like we're due for him to be involved. 

I was spoiled about the Proto/Zero Doctor, or however we're naming her, because of course there's no courtesy anymore and she popped up all over social media the second the credits rolled, and I can't watch until now. I wasn't spoiled on how she was in the episode though, and I liked how it was worked in. And how they revealed our favorite canine friend was part of the team. 

Given how long ago that was, and I assume that's the same Lupari, did he have another human back then? And they're just reassigned when the human dies? 

I did kind of like Thirteen being all snippy at the end too. She just got a wallop of an information dump, and I'm sure she needed a couple of minutes to process. 

I'm wondering if the old lady is a future Doctor too. 

It was a good discussion about how the Cybermen, Sontorans, and Daleks are just going on with doing their thing until the universe ends. 

[Affogato]

23 hours ago, Affogato said:

I'm guessing there is some kind of time thing going on that we aren't aware of yet.

Also the answer may be that the monitor is a connection to the baby because the baby is not physically with her. 

[Lantern7]

Got around to rewatching this episode. Once again, I’m thinking “Flux” probably makes more sense if taken in one shot. I am a little proud to notice that “Dan” was holding (quick Google) Karvanista’s crossbow/gun weapon.

Weeping Angels coming out of a video game . . . wouldn’t have been surprised if Yaz soiled herself.

The old lady in the end is/was the Doctor, right? I’m waiting on the BBCA broad at, but it seems obvious.

Edited November 22, 2021 by Lantern7

[DanaK]

7-day UK ratings: 4.671 million viewers, rank 20th for the week

[DanaK]

Just to update, the AI was 75

Also, for those interested, the viewership on BBC America in the US at 8pm was 337,000 viewers

 

[DanaK]

On 11/22/2021 at 11:20 AM, DanaK said:

7-day UK ratings: 4.671 million viewers, rank 20th for the week

BARB made a slight update to the 7-day figures, upping them to 4.696 million viewers

[DanaK]

On 11/29/2021 at 12:33 PM, DanaK said:

BARB made a slight update to the 7-day figures, upping them to 4.696 million viewers

BARB made another update, revising down to 4.595766 million viewers, rank revised upwards from 20th to 17th for the week

[DanaK]

28-day figures from BARB: 5.230337 million viewers; rank 15th for the week)

Edited December 13, 2021 by DanaK
updated figures and rank

[DanaK]

Ratings updates
7-day: 4.695995 million viewers, rank 20th for the week