S41.E07: There’s Gonna Be Blood

[blackwing]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Quote

"Danny basically reamed Jeff out. He was like, “This isn’t a twist. This is a lie! You told us that if we won the challenge, we would get immunity,” and there was a long conversation about it. "

How I wish they had the guts to show this on the air. I mean they did show us how disgruntled Danny was but not the part where he called out Jeff. They'd never do that. I predict we'll have several more bitter exit interviews before the season is over. 

I guess I don't understand Danny's level of disgruntlement.  If we are to believe Sydney, there was a "long conversation" about this where Jeff apologised to Danny and asked him what kinds of things they could do to improve for the next season.  Really?  Why would Jeff feel the need to apologise?

I understand the point of view that "we had immunity and you took it away" and that this is something that hasn't happened so it's not fair.  I would say nothing is "unfair" in Survivor.  Maybe in the early years, but after 40 seasons, I would think that contestants need to expect that there will be twists in the game.  The Idol Nullifier was introduced several seasons ago so there is some precedent for taking away immunity.

Also, if he is saying that the game should stick to what has been done in the past, there hasn't been a situation at the merge when half the people get immunity and the other half have to compete.  No doubt that if he had been on the other end of the hourglass that he would think it was completely fair. 

Maybe he should have sang to Jeffy and asked him to find a way, to take back those words that have hurt him, and he'd stay.  Why did you do the things you did, why did you say the things you said.  Pride's like a knife, it cuts deep inside.  Words are like weapons, they wound sometimes.

Honestly, this makes me think a lot less of Danny.  Danny was always my favourite from the start, but I am surprised that as a former professional athlete, that he doesn't have a better attitude about this.  Yes, he played within a structure where the rules were defined.  But I'm sure the rules are also open to interpretation.  Did he whine about every penalty call that went against his team?  Because like Erika's decision to take a knife and drive it deep into his heart, those are sometimes arbitrary decisions that also don't go his way.

I think maybe instead of complaining about it, Danny should just concentrate on playing the game as it is in the moment.  He should find a way to reach the stars.  And give them all to Jeffy.

Edited November 5, 2021 by blackwing

[Nashville]

On 11/4/2021 at 8:46 AM, peachmangosteen said:

I am obsessed with the Evvie/Xander/Tiffany trio and I would love to see them somehow make it to the end. They have a really hard battle though. Xander has now proven himself to be a huge threat, they obviously think Evvie is super smart, and those 3 just showed everyone they are thick as thieves. I don't see a way in which they aren't gone very quickly now. But I hope I'm wrong!

There’s an old phrase you don’t hear much anymore, but which I think applies in this situation: a reference to somebody being “so sharp they cut themself”.  

• Did the Xander/Evvie/Tiff trio execute their strategy masterfully?    Absolutely.
• Did their same masterful execution (and their moderately excessive celebration afterwards) paint a roughly Chrysler Building-sized target on all their backs?  No doubt about it; at this point the Xander/Evvie/Tiff trio stand out as this season’s most successfully coordinated alliance to date.

 

On 11/4/2021 at 11:29 AM, treeofdreams said:

I keep losing track of alliances.  Who was Sydney in an alliance with?

In truth that’s a very good question, the answer to which points out the specific reason for Syd’s departure: namely, Syd was simultaneously allied with (a) virtually everybody and (b) nobody.  

Syd was the victim of what, for lack of a better term, I’ll call the Survivor Success Penalty (SSP for short).  Between the three original teams, Team Blue has clearly been the most successful by far; winning virtually every challenge - and always winning at least some degree of Tribal immunity - to the point last night was the first time ANY of Blue had so much as lit their TC torches.  No doubt Blue has had the cushiest ride to Merge of any of the three teams.

There’s a trade off for that sort of success, though, and it showed up last night in spades.  Yes, the members of Team Blue had made their little alliances and plotted their little plots in case they ever did have to go to TC - but that’s where the SSP comes into play: none of Blue’s alliance relationships had ever been tested by the trial-by-fire experience of TC.  It’s easy to be in an alliance when everything is going your way, which is all Blue had known; if that same alliance falls apart the moment it encounters adversity or resistance, though, then it never really existed in the first place - little more than a lot of “yeah sure”s the speakers never intended to back up with action.  
At the first sign of opposition, Blue’s so-called “alliances” folded like wet toilet paper - and Syd got flushed in the process.

 

23 hours ago, tangentwoman said:

And [Liana] was so not cool when she asked Xander how he was going to use the idol (something like, "And you're not going to give it to Evvie directly?") that I thought maybe she was actually TRYING to be obvious about it, but maybe not? 

Frankly, I thought Liana’s information-digging was SO painfully obvious at this point that it HAD to be strategy - i.e., Liana trying to reverse-psych Xander into being so paranoid Liana was going to steal the item from him that he would give it to Evvie pre-TC, at which Liana could steal it from her.  And Liana probably thought her Grand Master Plan had worked - right up until Xander started digging into his shorts and came up with the parchment-wrapped packet, that is….

22 hours ago, Johann said:

When did Tiffany become likable?  I liked her this ep.

Tiff became (quasi-)likable when Production stopped showing her rolling her eyes at EVERY SINGLE STATEMENT made by EVERY OTHER PLAYER.

 

[Nashville]

On 11/4/2021 at 12:17 PM, laurakaye said:

At TC when Xander kept on telling Evvie that she was fine, and it was down to one vote and he suddenly said "sorry, Evvie," does anyone know whose vote that was?  Did he really think Evvie was going home?  He just seemed SO certain until right before that last vote.

Here’s what I think was behind Xander’s apology to Evvie:

1. Syd revealed she had played the SITD - vacating her vote in the process - and come up empty.
2. Based on this information Xander did some quick sums in his head, and came up with Syd being evicted over Evvie by a 2-vote margin - which is why Xander told Tiff not to play the idol.
3. Xander did not know about Deshawn’s extra vote, though - although to be fair Deshawn probably didn’t know about Deshawn’s extra vote until he stepped into the TC voting booth - which skewed the expected vote totals.
4. When Peachy got down to the “one vote left” point in the vote count with Evvie and Syd tied, Xander was surprised (by his figuring, Syd should have been leading Evvie in the vote tally be at least one vote), assumed he’d fucked up his math, and doomed Evvie in the process - hence his apology.
5. Deshawn’s one-vote skew wasn’t enough to sway the overall result, though; Syd was still sent down the Path of Shame - albeit by 1 vote rather than 2.

 

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

If we are to believe Sydney

IMHO there’s the first big problem right there.

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

there was a "long conversation" about this where Jeff apologised to Danny

Peachy.  
Apologizing.  

To anybody, about anything.  

Nope, not buying it - not unless the “apology” in question was more along the lines of, “Gee, Danny, I’m really sorry you feel that way about it….”, that is.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Nashville said:

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

If we are to believe Sydney

IMHO there’s the first big problem right there.

Quote

there was a "long conversation" about this where Jeff apologised to Danny

Peachy.  
Apologizing.  

To anybody, about anything.  

Nope, not buying it - not unless the “apology” in question was more along the lines of, “Gee, Danny, I’m really sorry you feel that way about it….”, that is.

There's a bit of the telephone game going on here, because, at least in the interview I saw, Sydney never says that Jeff apologized. Just said that he might be able to make it better and asked what he could change. Here's the extended quote from the TVLine interview quoted above, complete with some typical Sydney-fying to enrage her haters and amuse those who find her funny:

"TVLINE | Can you share something from that night that didn’t make the edit?
Danny basically reamed Jeff out. He was like, “This isn’t a twist. This is a lie! You told us that if we won the challenge, we would get immunity,” and there was a long conversation about it. Jeff’s like, “OK, well maybe I can make it better for future seasons. What can I change?” I’m thinking like, “Really, bro?” I don’t want a change to go benefit someone else that I don’t f–king know because I don’t have empathy for them. What the hell do I care? This is about the now, and it’s about me getting f–ked over. That twist was intended to get a threatening player out, and I said during my pre-game interviews, in order to win Survivor, you can’t be the best at anything. So looking back, I was f–ked from the beginning because I’m the best at everything."

Obviously this is Sydney paraphrasing what happened and probably isn't exactly what Jeff said, but I just wanted to point out that she doesn't say he apologized. And I wanted to stoke the Sydney fire because I still think she's a hoot whose statements are being taken way too seriously, and I'm going to miss her. It's not that I particularly liked her as a person, but I need someone like her in a season like this when there are soooo many meaningful, inspirational (boring) speeches that make me zone out...and then Sydney pops up talking about how she's a self-obsessed mermaid, and I'm zeroed in again XD

Edited November 5, 2021 by tracyscott76
Added italics to make the quote clear

[woodscommaelle]

Sydney reminds me of the character Klare from Schitt’s Creek.

 

[peachmangosteen]

4 hours ago, survivinmt said:

Also, I get being upset about the Turn Back Time Twist, but its less random than drawing rocks - and that's how Danny got to be on the winning tribe in that challenge. That was complete luck of the draw that nearly ALL the athletes were on one team, and SURPRISE they won. He had an Immunity Challenge and time at camp to solidify his position. They have had twists like this all along. In China when golden boy and 2-idol James got put into the minority on a tribe.  If you like the random-ness that favors you, you kind of have to roll with the times it doesn't.

This. So much this.

I was already 100% over Danny, but hearing he whined to Dad (Jeff) about how unfair the twist is just made it really clear to me that he sucks lol. It's too bad, he's so hot.

[nlkm9]

On 11/4/2021 at 1:51 PM, seacliffsal said:

 

by the way, Sydneys "confessional" that her life was "a kaJillion times better " was the most ridiculous exit speech Ive ever seen

[LanceM]

7 hours ago, KeithJ said:

I'm not sure just how much of a law student she really is.  If you look at her Instagram page (fittingly enough her handle is @queensydney) , it seems all she does is travel.  Not sure how you can be both a law student and world traveler at the same time.  Both cost plenty of $$$ and time.

She actually has two instagram accounts. QueenSydney and PresidentSydney. She seems to post political stuff on that page because she plans to run for president in 2032.  lol.  I can't tell if she is serious or npot. As far as all her travelling goes. She is originally from Beverly Hills, CA and her father is a prominent lawyer. So I am guessing money isn't too much of an issue.

[Cheyanne11]

9 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Liana should have known that Xander was not holding his idol or advantage and simply not played her advantage. She knew that Xander knew about her advantage and how it worked. She knew that Xander told Danny that he thought Liana was going to be targeting someone with an idol with her advantage. Why Liana thought that Xander trusted her after that, I have no clue. She should have simply not played it.

She was desperate to look like the badass and impress her alliance (or just Shan) with how she took Xander down.  That's what made her failure all the more enjoyable.

[CountryGirl]

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

This. So much this.

I was already 100% over Danny, but hearing he whined to Dad (Jeff) about how unfair the twist is just made it really clear to me that he sucks lol. It's too bad, he's so hot.

I was over the whining before it started. 

Suck it up, buttercup!

[CraftyHazel]

Liana was feeling full of herself, and thinking about how amazing it was going to be to pull off this move on poor, dumb Xander.  There was no real need to get cute about stealing the immunity idol from him this week, when her group had massive numbers and could have just chosen another target.  No, she wanted to make a splash, and with Shan whispering in her ear on top of it all, she just couldn’t wait to show off.

Naseer and Shan both had immunity idols.  Everyone knows who has them.  Xander showed his (fake) idol to Liana.  Why didn’t she then ask to see Naseer’s or Shan’s to see if they matched?  I mean, if they all look different, at least then she knows that.  But if the other two look alike and Xander’s doesn’t match, it’s distinctly possible that it’s a fake.  Or just ask him to hold it up before she asks for it, and maybe Shan or Naseer might volunteer that it doesn’t look a thing like theirs.  Or maybe just realize that no matter how low her opinion of Xander may be, this is season 41 and he might be smart enough (especially after telling people that he knew she had that advantage) to not show off his actual immunity idol at TC.

Liana made that mistake because she got cute and cocky, and she deserves that smug smile being wiped from her face.  I enjoyed it immensely.

And I liked her until she and Shan latched onto each other.

[Nashville]

2 hours ago, Cheyanne11 said:

She was desperate to look like the badass and impress her alliance (or just Shan) with how she took Xander down.  That's what made her failure all the more enjoyable.

A little mental lesson from my high school chess days:

Question: What do you call the style of strategy which, to succeed, requires your opponent to make the moves you want/need them to?

Answer: A wish.

Translation: Any strategy which requires your adversary’s cooperation to succeed is no strategy at all.

[gesundheit]

Whatever happened to flushing out idols? I feel like it's been a while since that was common practice and now it's mostly, "Oh, so-and-so's got an idol so they're not an option to vote out." Feels like a lot of folks have made it to the end or almost-the-end just because everyone knew they had an idol from early on so their name was just never written down.

I guess because you have to have a big enough alliance to do that while splitting the vote? Or maybe because there are so many competing advantages? 

I don't mind the game twists all that much, but I loathe the regrouping at TC. They shouldn't be allowed to do all the whispering and re-strategizing. Surprises at TC should be a bigger deal than surprises they learn earlier in the day and after which they can come up with a new plan. It should be higher stakes.

Edited November 6, 2021 by gesundheit

[SVNBob]

11 hours ago, Nashville said:

Syd was the victim of what, for lack of a better term, I’ll call the Survivor Success Penalty (SSP for short).  Between the three original teams, Team Blue has clearly been the most successful by far; winning virtually every challenge - and always winning at least some degree of Tribal immunity - to the point last night was the first time ANY of Blue had so much as lit their TC torches.  No doubt Blue has had the cushiest ride to Merge of any of the three teams.

There’s a trade off for that sort of success, though, and it showed up last night in spades.  Yes, the members of Team Blue had made their little alliances and plotted their little plots in case they ever did have to go to TC - but that’s where the SSP comes into play: none of Blue’s alliance relationships had ever been tested by the trial-by-fire experience of TC.  It’s easy to be in an alliance when everything is going your way, which is all Blue had known; if that same alliance falls apart the moment it encounters adversity or resistance, though, then it never really existed in the first place - little more than a lot of “yeah sure”s the speakers never intended to back up with action.  
At the first sign of opposition, Blue’s so-called “alliances” folded like wet toilet paper - and Syd got flushed in the process.

While this is true in general, there's a couple other extenuating factors in play in this particular case.

#1) The core of the Blue alliances is the Danny/Deshawn pair, and the plans are based on their biases.

Pre-merge, they were concerned about the streak of men getting booted (4 of the first 5).  That's why they wrangled in Naseer and tried to throw challenges to boot Erika.  They may have allied with Syd for the first couple Blue boots, but Syd would have been the 3rd over Naseer, even without his idol.

Post-merge, they allied with Shan and Liana in the AAAlliance.  Combine both factors, and that cuts Syd, a white woman, out of their core plans.  She's was relegated to the same status as Heather of "extra number we're dragging along until we have to cut her".

#2) The limited selection of possible targets at this TC.  Over half the group had immunity, even without idols.  I'm sure that they would have preferred a different target, like Erika still, or maybe Tiffany, but there were only 5 possible targets; Danny, Deshawn, Evvie, Naseer, and Syd.  Given their predominant "male-centric" mindset, that cut Danny and Deshawn's possibilities to 2: Evvie and Syd.  With Xander openly declaring protection on Evvie, and the failure of Liana's advantage to nullify that, there was "only" one option left.

[BK1978]

22 hours ago, gesundheit said:

Whatever happened to flushing out idols? I feel like it's been a while since that was common practice and now it's mostly, "Oh, so-and-so's got an idol so they're not an option to vote out." Feels like a lot of folks have made it to the end or almost-the-end just because everyone knew they had an idol from early on so their name was just never written down.

 

A little off topic but, they still do that on Australian Survivor.  There was this guy named Simon who was, I hate this term but for lack of a better term I shall use it, the "Alpha male" of his tribe.  He was great in challenges and decent at the strategic part of the game as well.  Anyway, at the very least he found two Idols (I am not sure why I think it was three, but my memory is not that great so I know at the very least it was two) and he told his two most trusted allies that he had the idols.  His allies then promptly voted him out with his Idols. 

Circling back to what you said above, when I was watching the episode where Simon got voted out I remember thinking, "Hmm they don't really do that much on American Survivor anymore."

Edited November 7, 2021 by BK1978

[Guest]

On 11/6/2021 at 1:48 AM, gesundheit said:

Whatever happened to flushing out idols? I feel like it's been a while since that was common practice and now it's mostly, "Oh, so-and-so's got an idol so they're not an option to vote out." Feels like a lot of folks have made it to the end or almost-the-end just because everyone knew they had an idol from early on so their name was just never written down.

I guess because you have to have a big enough alliance to do that while splitting the vote? Or maybe because there are so many competing advantages? 

Isn't this what the Shan/Deshawn alliance was trying to do? Flush out Xander/Yellow's idol by splitting the votes between Evvie and Sydney?

[sharkerbaby]

No, they were hedging their bets.  They were making sure they were the ones who directed the boot, if not their 1st choice person, and "just in case" the idol was played, at least their 2nd choice would go out.  If they were flushing out the idol they would have made it known they were voting Evie so that the idol would have been played, thus "flushing" it.  The boot would have been the same but they also would have gotten the idol out of Xander's hands.

Edited November 7, 2021 by sharkerbaby

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, sharkerbaby said:

No, they were hedging their bets.  They were making sure they were the ones who directed the boot, if not their 1st choice person, and "just in case" the idol was played, at least their 2nd choice would go out.  If they were flushing out the idol they would have made it known they were voting Evie so that the idol would have been played, thus "flushing" it.  The boot would have been the same but they also would have gotten the idol out of Xander's hands.

Seems like a fine line to me, but I'm not going to debate it.

[ProfCrash]

 

 

5 hours ago, sharkerbaby said:

No, they were hedging their bets.  They were making sure they were the ones who directed the boot, if not their 1st choice person, and "just in case" the idol was played, at least their 2nd choice would go out.  If they were flushing out the idol they would have made it known they were voting Evie so that the idol would have been played, thus "flushing" it.  The boot would have been the same but they also would have gotten the idol out of Xander's hands.

They wanted to make sure that it wasn’t DeShawn going home. So they needed enough votes to potentially vote out Evvie but also protect DeShawn. If they put all the votes on Evvie and the idol is played then Evvie/Xander/Tiffany get to choose who to vote out. 

They wanted to flush the idol but needed the votes to protect DeShawn. 

Xander’s choice to not use the idol was ballsy and not one that they were expecting.

And DeShawn didn’t tell them he had an extra vote. I don’t know if he forgot about it because he hadn’t been to tribal to get it or if he was hiding it. Had DeShawn told them he had an extra vote and was using it n Evvie, then Syd might not have used the shot in the dark and Evvie would have gone home. 

[AncientNewbie]

I'm somehow both "too many advantages" and "that was fun" having finally caught up on the episode. 

[blackwing]

16 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

 

 

They wanted to make sure that it wasn’t DeShawn going home. So they needed enough votes to potentially vote out Evvie but also protect DeShawn. If they put all the votes on Evvie and the idol is played then Evvie/Xander/Tiffany get to choose who to vote out. 

They wanted to flush the idol but needed the votes to protect DeShawn. 

Xander’s choice to not use the idol was ballsy and not one that they were expecting.

And DeShawn didn’t tell them he had an extra vote. I don’t know if he forgot about it because he hadn’t been to tribal to get it or if he was hiding it. Had DeShawn told them he had an extra vote and was using it n Evvie, then Syd might not have used the shot in the dark and Evvie would have gone home. 

I agree, I think what Blue did last round was the definition of flushing out the idol.  They pretty much announced that Evvie was going home, inviting Xander to use his idol.  They wanted him to think he needed to play the idol thinking that Evvie was in danger.  Thus, flushing out the idol.  They expected him to play it, which is why they split their vote to ensure that one of their own (Deshawn) would not go home.  Then Lianna was supposed to swoop in with her "I'm a badass power player" move and take his idol.  The only difference here is that Xander didn't have it, and in fact it did not get played at all.  

I think this coming week will be interesting because surely Blue is still going to target Xander, Tiffany and Evvie.  Only one of them can win immunity, and they have only one idol.  Two of them will be at risk.  So I think it will be another round of idol flushing.  And guessing as to who the votes will go on.

The three of them truly need to try and get Erika and Heather onto their side.  Otherwise I don't see how they can keep on surviving.

[Jobiska]

On 11/5/2021 at 1:55 PM, survivinmt said:

Also, I get being upset about the Turn Back Time Twist, but its less random than drawing rocks - and that's how Danny got to be on the winning tribe in that challenge. That was complete luck of the draw that nearly ALL the athletes were on one team, and SURPRISE they won. He had an Immunity Challenge and time at camp to solidify his position. They have had twists like this all along. In China when golden boy and 2-idol James got put into the minority on a tribe.  If you like the random-ness that favors you, you kind of have to roll with the times it doesn't.

Exactly this.  Picking and choosing about what "that isn't fair!" to be mad about is not a good look.  And not just that the athletes were on that team, but almost everyone on that team had been eating, and nobody on the other team had!  And then they got a feast before the TimeSmash!  (Now did the SmasherSide get a feast too, or just immunity and not having to show us their grubby feet?)  

ETA:  that was a weird exchange while Naseer was still seeming to chat with the non-blue group at Tribal, and asked who the vote was for, and Sydney said "Deshawn, duh" and Naseer repeated "duh" dutifully.  Or at least that's how I connected the subtitles to the scene.  I could be wrong.

I did love Xander's delivery when he said "but you can have this fake one!"  And in the brief glimpse we saw of the real one, I think, when they flashed back to the three making their plan, it looked enough like the fake one that in a brief glance at tribal, even the other idol holders would be fooled.  

Edited November 9, 2021 by Jobiska

[Fretful]

On 11/8/2021 at 6:19 AM, blackwing said:

I agree, I think what Blue did last round was the definition of flushing out the idol.  They pretty much announced that Evvie was going home, inviting Xander to use his idol.  They wanted him to think he needed to play the idol thinking that Evvie was in danger.  Thus, flushing out the idol. 

The three of them truly need to try and get Erika and Heather onto their side.  Otherwise I don't see how they can keep on surviving.

I don't think we can really call this "flushing the idol" because it wasn't played and Xander still has it.  At best, it was an unsuccessful attempt to flush the idol. Unfortunately for them, they didn't get rid of the idol or their intended target.  They did protect DeShawn, however, which may prove more important in the long run.

Ericka and Heather are cannon fodder at this point, but you're right, they do need allies.  Too bad Liana shot herself in the foot, otherwise they could bring her back in.  I would grab Ricard and Naseer and vote Shan out.

 

[mythoughtis]

On 11/4/2021 at 9:43 AM, blackwing said:

Strategizing should happen before tribal.  If he truly wants "unexpected" and "shocking", nothing would be more chaotic than people who realise their plan is falling apart, but unable to communicate with each other, and thus, if they hadn't come up with alternatives before, too bad.  Vote with your gut.  I would make a new rule.  If you get up from your stool, you lose your vote.  And put the stools far enough apart that they can't lean over and whisper directly into someone's ear.

Yes!  The fun of someone upsetting the apple cart at tribal was seeing what people did when they had to make a last minute choice without knowing what the group think was 

[PurpleTentacle]

On 11/4/2021 at 3:51 AM, iMonrey said:

Sure, it was fun to see Xander ruin Liana's plan. I guess he's not as dumb as he looks. Or maybe Liana isn't as smart as she thinks she is.  But using fake idols has been a thing for awhile now. That's not new. What's new is that there are four or five players with multiple advantages and/or idols, and half the players had immunity and there were only a limited number of people who were even eligible to vote out and everyone has a chance at a Hail Mary pass in the voting booth. The whole game is set up to screw everyone over. I get how that's fun for the audience and makes everything far less predictable but it strikes me as an impossible game to play. I don't blame DeShawn one bit for being pissed off about Erika's twist. It's like, why even bother? You work hard to win a challenge and the stupid producers just pull the rug right out from under you, because surprise! More fun for us and the audience! Scramble, little hamsters, scramble and cross your fingers because everything is just a crapshoot now!

Also it's only short term fun for the audiance. All this stuff gets old fast and then just becomes annoying. The strategic game is still the core of what makes survivor interesting and when you destroy that, there is just no show left.

So I hope all this bullshit i short lived, but I'm affraid the producers will run it into the ground.