Dopesick - General Discussion

[Meredith Quill]

This topic wasn’t started until four or five episodes had already aired, proceed at your own risk if you’re just starting the show.

[Door County Cherry]

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Dopesick is an American drama miniseries created by Danny Strong based on the non-fiction book Dopesick: Dealers, Doctors and the Drug Company that Addicted America by Beth Macy.

 

[sadie]

I am loving this show. It’s riveting. Hoping others are watching as I always love hearing what others have to say. Michael Keaton is hitting it out of the park, the journey from good guy hometown doctor to drug addict is just heartbreaking. Kaitlyn Dever again proves what a talented young actress she is. Really the whole cast is just amazing. I know it’s a loosely based true story but dang I can’t wait to see how it all ends. 

[Shannon L.]

I've watching the show, too, and had considered opening a thread on it.  I knew a little bit about the story, but not everything and find myself infuriated and appalled with every new episode.

I agree that Michael Keaton is doing a fantastic job.  The whole cast is, imo.  In last night's episode, even though I don't like how they treated their daughter when she came out, Mare Winningham and especially Ray McKinnon broke my heart when they were in the pawn shop thinking that the owner would simply hand back the items that Betsy stole.  I know it was naive, but I think they are naive about a lot of things.  Oh, and Will Poulter nailed his performance when he was talking to Fennix about selling the drugs.  I hope he's turns out to be the whistleblower that they can get in court.

I'm really impressed with the whole show so far.  

[HelloooKitty]

I’m also enjoying it. Keaton deserves an award for this for sure but all the acting is strong!

[MerBearStare]

14 hours ago, HelloooKitty said:

Keaton deserves an award for this for sure but all the acting is strong!

Kaitlyn Dever too!

This show is equal parts depressing and infuriating, but I'm enjoying it. But I really think they should have called this show, and the book, Sack(ler)s of Shit.

[Quilt Fairy]

53 minutes ago, MerBearStare said:

they should have called this show, and the book, Sack(ler)s of Shit.

Yeah, it's amazing to think that these worthless excuses for human beings are all - every one of them - multi-millionaires if not billionaires. 

I found a drug dealer using AA meetings to get clients reminiscent of Jesse in Breaking Bad, although perhaps Breaking Bad got that plotline from the Oxy situation. 

 

[Sweet-tea]

I just finished it. I thought it would wrap up by the last episode but we were kind of left hanging. Is there going to be a second season or is this it? We don’t usually see a season with just five episodes so I assumed it was one and done.

I really enjoyed seeing Michael Keaton and his performance was stellar. Watching him transition from a humble country doctor to an addict was heartbreaking. I wasn’t familiar with Kaitlyn Dever but gosh, she is so good in this show. I also thought Peter Saargard and John Hoogenakker were excellent as the federal agents. 

I didn’t realize that was Rosario Dawson playing Bridget until I looked up the cast. Wow. So many good performances in this show. 

Sam’s final line to Billy shocked me and broke my heart. 

[SoMuchTV]

Wait, what? Aren’t there something like three more episodes?

[HelloooKitty]

There are eight episodes total. Only 5 have aired to date. 

[Kerrey92]

This show is great but the dizzying movement from the 2000s to 1990s is confusing sometimes.  
 

When Michael Keaton asked him for the pills in rehab I was screaming at my TV.  
 

Sadly, the Sacklers get very little comeuppance.  Their net worth went from $13B to $10B after they paid their fines and a court decided they were immune from civil suits.  Ugh. John Oliver did a great and infuriating piece about how messed up it all is. 
 

I really hope the Harvard educated pharma rep keeps her comeuppance.  She’s terrible.  
 

New episodes are released on Wednesday’s.  

[Nialla]

19 minutes ago, Kerrey92 said:

This show is great but the dizzying movement from the 2000s to 1990s is confusing sometimes.  

That's been my only real complaint. I can see what the writer was aiming for, but it gets too confusing to keep track of multiple points in time from week to week. I think even if it was dropped all at once, it would still be confusing.

I do think a few well-placed flashbacks would be very effective, but the sliding timeline sometimes makes it difficult to understand what was happening concurrently.

[SoMuchTV]

1 hour ago, Kerrey92 said:

This show is great but the dizzying movement from the 2000s to 1990s is confusing sometimes.  

It took me at least three episodes to figure out that the spinning row of numbers started with the time of what we just saw, and ended at the time of what we're about to see.  At least I think that's what's happening.  I could still be confused.

[Sweet-tea]

15 hours ago, HelloooKitty said:

There are eight episodes total. Only 5 have aired to date. 

Oh gosh! Thanks for telling me. Only five showed in my Hulu queue so I thought that was it. Now it makes sense that it didn't end correctly.

 

Quote

That's been my only real complaint. I can see what the writer was aiming for, but it gets too confusing to keep track of multiple points in time from week to week.

I agree. I was getting confused how it constantly jumps back and forth. 

The brunette female pharma rep is reprehensible.  

Just saw this story. Wow. They're going after the marketing company too. I'm not sure what this is saying. Is it that Purdue paid a $10 billion settlement or they're worth $10 billion (as stated upthread). 

https://www.theepochtimes.com/publicis-loses-bid-to-escape-massachusetts-opioid-marketing-lawsuit_4077275.html

Edited October 31, 2021 by Sweet-tea

[wendyg]

Kaitlyn Dever is one of my favorite young actresses; she was wonderful in JUSTIFIED.

[Quilt Fairy]

5 hours ago, wendyg said:

Kaitlyn Dever is one of my favorite young actresses; she was wonderful in JUSTIFIED.

She was also wonderful in Unbelievable. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I’m enjoying this series, if you can call it that.  Hard to watch such pain and destruction.  It makes sense that the drug turns the person into someone else.  During the 1990’s I knew someone who was addicted to Oxycodone.  I always wondered if that did the same thing to people.  Imo, it messed up this person and I stopped all contact with them, as did others.

I thought when you pawned jewelry, you got a ticket and could return within so many days and retrieve the item for a set fee, plus service fee and interest. After so many days, it reverts to the shop’s inventory.  Oh well….

It was naive for the family to leave valuables around drug addict. The intervener person should have warned them.

I couldn’t watch the botched surgery scene. I could see it coming and turned away.  
 

What is driving the head Sackler guy?  He’s not trying to ease pain. He wants to make money, but it seems to be more than that.  Is he the mad professor?  Was this a quest for power?  It seems as if they are portraying him as a rather one dimensional character.  Is he really like that?  
 

If anyone is interested, the series Goliath also addresses the oxy issue with a lawsuit against the manufacturer in a more fictional story.  I just finished it and it was pretty good.  Billy Bob Thornton stars in that series. There were a lot stars in the final season of this show, including Bruce Dern, William Hurt, J. K. Simmons, so you can see it’s pretty impressive. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by SunnyBeBe

[Quilt Fairy]

7 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

What is driving the head Sackler guy?  He’s not trying to ease pain. He wants to make money, but it seems to be more than that.  Is he the mad professor?  Was this a quest for power?  It seems as if they are portraying him as a rather one dimensional character.  Is he really like that?  

I have the same problem.  In a show that makes a serious effort to give you a layered picture of even the lesser characters like Bets' parents and the Purdue sales rep, Richard Sackler comes off as nothing more than a puzzle with implied but ultimately unknown motivations.  I'd hate to think the whole Oxy crisis was only a "my dick is bigger than yours" move by a guy with daddy issues. 

When I was in rehab after knee surgery, I was given Oxy briefly in place of Norco (which is high strength Vicodin).  Almost immediately I started having hallucinations which scared the shit out of me and I told the doctor I wanted to go back on Norco, which I had been on for years without that kind of problem.  

[SunnyBeBe]

I really hope they do develop the head Sackler character a little more.  Perhaps, they don’t know how to approach it.  
 

I’m curious about the drug addiction portrayal.  The person that I knew was addicted to pain pills and alcohol, but they didn’t act like anyone I’ve seen on the show.  They had their issues, but not like what the movie portrays, though I don’t doubt the authenticity.  
 

I have been prescribed pain pills on several occasions in my life and my pain just laughed at the pain pills.  It’s as if they don’t affect me.  It’s odd.  I would take them, according to the directions, but it was like taking a Tylenol.  They were strong doses too, like hydrocodone or oxycodone.  I usually gave up on them helping.  It’s scary, because what would I do if I had a very serious injury?  I’m trying to figure out how those pills would remotely make me feel good…..I can’t. I got more of a buzz off a Dr. Pepper.  Guess, I have an odd metabolism.  

Edited November 2, 2021 by SunnyBeBe

[Ohiopirate02]

11 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I have the same problem.  In a show that makes a serious effort to give you a layered picture of even the lesser characters like Bets' parents and the Purdue sales rep, Richard Sackler comes off as nothing more than a puzzle with implied but ultimately unknown motivations.  I'd hate to think the whole Oxy crisis was only a "my dick is bigger than yours" move by a guy with daddy issues. 

 

It wasn't.  I worked as a pharmacy technician from 1999-2012.  The Sacklers are the perfect scapegoat for the Opioid Crisis, but others are also culpable.  There were a lot of factors that lead to the explosion of opioid prescriptions starting around 2002.  I remember seeing drugs that were only ever prescribed in a hospital setting or for end-stage cancer patients being written en masse by pain management doctors.   And this happened across multiple states.  Drug reps from one or two manufacturers do not have that much power.  But, it's easier to blame them and say they duped hundreds if not thousands of doctors into thinking somehow Oxycontin was not addicting.  

[ShelleySue]

I was in a car accident in the early 90’s and hurt my back and neck. My GP gave me oxy. I took one and was completely out of it. I called the office and said I wanted something that allowed me to function. The doctor told me I couldn’t function when I was in pain and I should continue taking the pills while my body healed. I said I was afraid of becoming addicted (I had the same fear and refused opioids for migraines years earlier) and the response was that there was no chance with this med. I didn’t care because I didn’t like the cloudy feeling. I flushed the rest of the pills and went to a chiropractor. I feel like I escaped addiction twice in my life — both times by ignoring doctors who told me that there was no reason to be in pain.

I am worried about Bets because of what Michael Keaton said during his testimony in the first episode.

I wish I had made notes of the timeline so I could keep better track. My other little quibble is the fake bald hair of the Sackler brother. I find it distracting when he’s in a scene. 

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It wasn't.  I worked as a pharmacy technician from 1999-2012.  The Sacklers are the perfect scapegoat for the Opioid Crisis, but others are also culpable.  There were a lot of factors that lead to the explosion of opioid prescriptions starting around 2002.  I remember seeing drugs that were only ever prescribed in a hospital setting or for end-stage cancer patients being written en masse by pain management doctors.   And this happened across multiple states.  Drug reps from one or two manufacturers do not have that much power.  But, it's easier to blame them and say they duped hundreds if not thousands of doctors into thinking somehow Oxycontin was not addicting.  

It’s amazing that extensive studies were not done before the drug got approved. Any idea why that happened? I worked for some doctors in 1995-1996, and the drug reps were always around trying to get access to them. I had a ton of Vicodin branded swag, from watches to cup holders to pens.

4 hours ago, ShelleySue said:

I was in a car accident in the early 90’s and hurt my back and neck. My GP gave me oxy. I took one and was completely out of it. I called the office and said I wanted something that allowed me to function. The doctor told me I couldn’t function when I was in pain and I should continue taking the pills while my body healed. I said I was afraid of becoming addicted (I had the same fear and refused opioids for migraines years earlier) and the response was that there was no chance with this med. I didn’t care because I didn’t like the cloudy feeling. I flushed the rest of the pills and went to a chiropractor. I feel like I escaped addiction twice in my life — both times by ignoring doctors who told me that there was no reason to be in pain.

I am worried about Bets because of what Michael Keaton said during his testimony in the first episode.

I wish I had made notes of the timeline so I could keep better track. My other little quibble is the fake bald hair of the Sackler brother. I find it distracting when he’s in a scene. 

And Oxy really doesn’t even work for migraines. My dad took it for years for major back pain and from time to time I’d take one to try and get rid of headaches that lasted multiple days. It didn’t work. 

[Ohiopirate02]

12 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

It’s amazing that extensive studies were not done before the drug got approved. Any idea why that happened? I worked for some doctors in 1995-1996, and the drug reps were always around trying to get access to them. I had a ton of Vicodin branded swag, from watches to cup holders to pens. 

Honestly, studies were not done on the addictive nature of Oxycontin because no one on any level wanted to know the results or have them available for further research.  Also, the behaviors of addicts were not studied.  It never ceases to amaze me how addicts figure things out and disseminate that information.  I don't know if anyone has really studied how addicts in Ohio found out where in Florida they could go, which doctors to make appointments with and what was needed in order to secure prescriptions for massive amounts of opioids.  

There's also the way that the medical establishment failed to instruct doctors on addiction.  We all know someone or know of someone who had an accident and became addicted.  Why, because orthopedic surgeons dispensed opioids like candy while the patient was under their care but then cut their addicted patients off with no recourse.  It sounds so simple, doctors should talk to their patients about the addictive nature of their pain meds and how to wean themselves off of them, but it did not happen.  Also, the rise in pain prescriptions correlates to the rise in more corporate medical practices where patient satisfaction was paramount.  Far easier to write prescriptions for pain meds than to get too many dissatisfied customers.  Then the big pharmacy chains encouraged their pharmacists to stock massive amounts of opioids because those patients paid in cash.  (Those patients paid in cash because they were selling their meds to their local drug dealer.  I remember the breakdown for the original recipe Oxycontin--$1 per milligram, so one 80mg tablet was worth $80 on the street.  Organized crime got involved at least in Cleveland.)  

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Honestly, studies were not done on the addictive nature of Oxycontin because no one on any level wanted to know the results or have them available for further research.  Also, the behaviors of addicts were not studied.  It never ceases to amaze me how addicts figure things out and disseminate that information.  I don't know if anyone has really studied how addicts in Ohio found out where in Florida they could go, which doctors to make appointments with and what was needed in order to secure prescriptions for massive amounts of opioids.  

There's also the way that the medical establishment failed to instruct doctors on addiction.  We all know someone or know of someone who had an accident and became addicted.  Why, because orthopedic surgeons dispensed opioids like candy while the patient was under their care but then cut their addicted patients off with no recourse.  It sounds so simple, doctors should talk to their patients about the addictive nature of their pain meds and how to wean themselves off of them, but it did not happen.  Also, the rise in pain prescriptions correlates to the rise in more corporate medical practices where patient satisfaction was paramount.  Far easier to write prescriptions for pain meds than to get too many dissatisfied customers.  Then the big pharmacy chains encouraged their pharmacists to stock massive amounts of opioids because those patients paid in cash.  (Those patients paid in cash because they were selling their meds to their local drug dealer.  I remember the breakdown for the original recipe Oxycontin--$1 per milligram, so one 80mg tablet was worth $80 on the street.  Organized crime got involved at least in Cleveland.)  

Incredible that not only were they able to get away with not having done extensive research on the drug, but that they even got a special label approved stating it was non addictive! 

I worked for a health insurance company and was responsible for giving insurance approval for mental health care , including detox and drug treatment programs. When patients would call and tell me how many pain killers (or other drugs) they had been taking and for how long, I always asked them who prescribed the drugs and whether they had gotten help from those providers in getting off them. The answers were almost always “no” and that really bothered me.

Edited November 2, 2021 by Cinnabon

[ShelleySue]

19 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

And Oxy really doesn’t even work for migraines. My dad took it for years for major back pain and from time to time I’d take one to try and get rid of headaches that lasted multiple days. It didn’t work. 

It wasn't oxy for migraines.  I was prescribed Fiorinal with codeine, Fioricet with codeine, and Tylenol #3 (at various times, not all together).  I was told to take them as soon as I got an aura. I was petrified of becoming addicted, plus I was aware of rebound headaches.  So I only ever took Tylenol #3 (which has Codeine but isn't as "fuzzy as the other two) after a headache started if it was really bad. 

18 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

I worked for a health insurance company and was responsible for giving insurance approval for mental health care , including detox and drug treatment programs. When patients would call and tell me how many pain killers (or other drugs) they had been taking and for how long, I always asked them who prescribed the drugs and whether they had gotten help from those providers in getting off them. The answers were almost always “no” and that really bothered me.

Have you watched The Crime of the Century? I think you'd be very interested in the second part which has to do with the lengths drug companies. especially Insys, went to dupe the insurance companies.  It was shocking.

[SlovakPrincess]

I'm only two episodes in, but certain things are distracting me from an otherwise compelling series:  I'm not sure the jumping around in time is working for me.  The constant depressing blue filter on everything is also annoying me.  Also?  Too many damn scenes of people talking while chewing food  -- sorry, this is just a huge pet peeve of mine in movies/TV.  

Also, I hate the cartoonishly awful drug saleslady.  Seriously, why is this over the top character necessary??  Wanting a piano to fall on her is really distracting me from the serious messages of the series.  

And I really hope they flesh out the Peter Saarsgard and Rosario Dawson characters beyond Law & Order-type dialogue -- so far the only characters who get a distinct personality are the Michael Keaton and Kaitlyn Devers characters ... and poor Randy, who apparently is secretly dying??

It sounds like I'm just complaining, but it is interesting and I'm learning a lot!

Edited November 3, 2021 by SlovakPrincess

[Mr. R0b0t]

On 10/31/2021 at 1:52 PM, wendyg said:

Kaitlyn Dever is one of my favorite young actresses; she was wonderful in JUSTIFIED.

Fair warning if you do watch Unbelievable, which she is outstanding in...it's not really light-hearted material much like this show.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Mr. R0b0t

[Mr. R0b0t]

I think it's hard to humanize the Sacklers because they barely qualify as human.  As for individual Sacklers, these aren't the kind of people that have huge social circles so getting a good idea of their personalities in 3D must be difficult.  I highly recommend the John Oliver breakdowns of this topic:

 

[Nialla]

On 11/1/2021 at 2:09 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

What is driving the head Sackler guy?  He’s not trying to ease pain. He wants to make money, but it seems to be more than that.  Is he the mad professor?  Was this a quest for power?  It seems as if they are portraying him as a rather one dimensional character.  Is he really like that?

It's been heavily implied that he's trying to outdo what his deceased uncle did for the company with another drug. Valium, IIRC. So one step away from Daddy Issues.

Once the millions start rolling in, the money itself could be considered an addiction in some ways. It doesn't matter how much they have, they're always looking for their next fix.

On 11/2/2021 at 2:41 PM, Cinnabon said:

And Oxy really doesn’t even work for migraines. My dad took it for years for major back pain and from time to time I’d take one to try and get rid of headaches that lasted multiple days. It didn’t work. 

Opioids generally don't help with migraines at all, unless there's some other underlying issue that is helped by opioids. I've had it explained to me by neurologists that different types of pain are like locks, and different types of pain relievers are like keys. They have to match to work.

I've had chronic migraines for 20+ years, plus other nerve-oriented pain, and I now have a high pain tolerance after decades of tuning out day-to-day pain. I have had opioids prescribed for other medical issues that it should have worked for, but did not. Vicodin is like a breath mint that might make me sleepy at best. Apparently chronic pain can rewire your brain so much that you can end up with high pain tolerance with a side order of high tolerance to the drugs that would help with any spikes of pain.

I hope they're going to touch more on the tolerance issue with the doctor. He seems to be cluing in that oxy addicts can't get off it easily, if at all. They hit rock bottom, and keep on digging, over and over and over. Their brains have rewired themselves to need higher and higher doses of oxy until it finally kills them, and in many cases, they didn't need it in the first place. Marketing had convinced doctors it was a miracle drug.

While it's clear that the "not addictive" part was a lie, just how addictive was it? It seems like addiction isn't the true killer, as it was stated in the most recent episode that the majority of deaths were people taking it as prescribed. I hope that gets more details.

[SunnyBeBe]

The lead character addict….is her name Betts?  Anyway, I expect her to die, because she really seems to have no idea how to stay clean.  Does she not realize that continuing to go to old places where she took the drug or associate with drug dealers, she’ll not make it.  Just destined to overdose.  

Can someone tell me why with that character seems to constantly be in withdrawal? She seems clean and healthy and time has passed and then she’s sweating and having chills under a blanket. I don’t understand that.  
 

That chart looked obviously off imo.  I don’t think it would take a professional to see how the graph was manipulated.  
 

I wonder if no one in the Sackler family became addicted to OxyContin.  They sure were against the so called abusers.  

[bilgistic]

6 hours ago, Nialla said:

Opioids generally don't help with migraines at all, unless there's some other underlying issue that is helped by opioids. I've had it explained to me by neurologists that different types of pain are like locks, and different types of pain relievers are like keys. They have to match to work.

I've had chronic migraines for 20+ years, plus other nerve-oriented pain, and I now have a high pain tolerance after decades of tuning out day-to-day pain. I have had opioids prescribed for other medical issues that it should have worked for, but did not. Vicodin is like a breath mint that might make me sleepy at best. Apparently chronic pain can rewire your brain so much that you can end up with high pain tolerance with a side order of high tolerance to the drugs that would help with any spikes of pain.

...

While it's clear that the "not addictive" part was a lie, just how addictive was it? It seems like addiction isn't the true killer, as it was stated in the most recent episode that the majority of deaths were people taking it as prescribed. I hope that gets more details.

The first two paragraphs I quoted here are so helpful to me, so thank you. I also deal with chronic headaches/migraines and have as a result built up such a high pain tolerance that my migraines hardly respond to triptans and not at all to OTC painkillers. I finally, finally go to a new neurologist next week. It's been about five years since I've been, due to finances.

In January 2020, I was in a fairly bad car wreck that I "walked away from", but was left with pretty severe internal bruising and strains from the impact. It took literally months to heal. The first few weeks were horrible. I couldn't work. I couldn't lift anything. I could barely put on my clothes, it hurt so much to move. The doctor wouldn't give me but about four or five days' worth of hydrocodone and muscle relaxers and told me to take ibuprofen after that. I was in severe pain, and even the hydrocodone only dulled it. He only represcribed one time because he said he would "get in trouble". I told him I understood it, but I was in real, agonizing pain.

As I kept hearing the "less than 1% get addicted to OxyContin" "statistic", I wanted to know the truth. What I found is the following, but it includes all opiods, not just oxycodone (OxyContin).

Quote

Between 8 and 12 percent of people using an opioid for chronic pain develop an opioid use disorder.

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by bilgistic

[Sweet-tea]

On 11/2/2021 at 9:44 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

It wasn't.  I worked as a pharmacy technician from 1999-2012.  The Sacklers are the perfect scapegoat for the Opioid Crisis, but others are also culpable.  There were a lot of factors that lead to the explosion of opioid prescriptions starting around 2002.  I remember seeing drugs that were only ever prescribed in a hospital setting or for end-stage cancer patients being written en masse by pain management doctors.   And this happened across multiple states.  Drug reps from one or two manufacturers do not have that much power.  But, it's easier to blame them and say they duped hundreds if not thousands of doctors into thinking somehow Oxycontin was not addicting.  

I appreciate your perspective on this. My mother and sister were both hooked on hydrocodone, which I guess is another opiod but not as strong as Oxy? When my sister passed away she had been on Suboxone for over three years. She started with Methadone and at some point the clinic switched her to Suboxone. I’m not sure what the difference is but it did seem like they just substituted this drug for the hydrocodone. She was still dependent on a strong drug and had to line up once a day at the clinic, just like they showed in the series. 

My mother was prescribed Lortab and Percocet by her regular doctor for at least 15 years. She didn’t even have a real diagnosis and had a history of addiction to various substances (alcohol, cigarettes, benzos). She also was mentally ill and would fake illnesses to get attention from people. Over the years she said she had breast cancer, a brain tumor, Alzheimer’s, and lupus. Those are just the ones I remember. 

Due to her personality disorder and alcohol issues, she already had problematic, often abusive behavior going all the way back to my childhood. But after she’d been on Percocet a few years, her behavior got much worse. She began to isolate and not eat. She was increasingly abusive to my father. She also began getting additional prescriptions and at least once tried to order drugs from a family member through the mail. 

I called her doctor and asked him to please stop prescribing her the drugs. He would not talk to me, so I spoke to his nurse. I told her my mother was an addict in serious decline. It was very frustrating as she wouldn’t listen to me and just spouted HIPAA. I understand the confidentiality issue but I wasn’t asking any questions. I was warning them about my mother’s addiction. 

My sister’s story is even worse, but I will save you all the long story as I already probably went on too long about my mother. 

One thing I’m not clear on from watching this special is the distinction they’re making between hydrocodone and oxy. Didn’t the opiod crisis include a lot of people hooked like my mother and sister who were addicted to Vicodin, Lortab, Percocet, etc. too? Is this show focusing on oxy because it was marketed as not being addictive? If that is the case, it still seems like they’re leaving off a big portion by not including other opiods. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Sweet-tea

[Cinnabon]

5 hours ago, Sweet-tea said:

I appreciate your perspective on this. My mother and sister were both hooked on hydrocodone, which I guess is another opiod but not as strong as Oxy? When my sister passed away she had been on Suboxone for over three years. She started with Methadone and at some pint the clinic switched her to Suboxone. I’m not sure what the difference is but it did seem like they just substituted this drug for the hydrocodone. She was still dependent on a strong drug and had to line up once a day at the clinic, just like they showed in the series. 

My mother was prescribed Lortab and Percocet by her regular doctor for at least 15 years. She didn’t even have a real diagnosis and had a history of addiction to various substances (alcohol, cigarettes, benzos). She also was mentally ill and would fake illnesses to get attention from people. Over the years she said she had breast cancer, a brain tumor, Alzheimer’s, and lupus. Those are just the ones I remember. 

Due to her personality disorder and alcohol issues, she already had problematic, often abusive behavior going all the way back to my childhood. But after she’d been on Percocet a few years, her behavior got much worse. She began to isolate and not eat. She was increasingly abusive to my father. She also began getting additional prescriptions and at least once tried to order drugs from a family member through the mail. 

I called her doctor and asked him to please stop prescribing her the drugs. He would not talk to me, so I spoke to his nurse. I told her my mother was an addict in serious decline. It was very frustrating as she wouldn’t listen to me and just spouted HIPAA. I understand the confidentiality issue but I wasn’t asking any questions. I was warning them about my mother’s addiction. 

My sister’s story is even worse, but I will save you all the long story as I already probably went on too long about my mother. 

One thing I’m not clear on from watching this special is the distinction they’re making between hydrocodone and oxy. Didn’t the opiod crisis include a lot of people hooked like my mother and sister who were addicted to Vicodin, Lortab, Percocet, etc. too? Is this show focusing on oxy because it was marketed as not being addictive? If that is the case, it still seems like they’re leaving off a big portion by not including other opiods. 

The difference between them is that oxycodone is created as a time release capsule instead of immediate release like hydrocodone (Vicodin). They claimed that because it was created to be time released that it didn’t cause addiction like the immediate release medications. Obviously that was wrong. There was a time in the late 90s, early 2000s that you could even easily buy Vicodin online without a prescription. 

[Sweet-tea]

13 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

The difference between them is that oxycodone is created as a time release capsule instead of immediate release like hydrocodone (Vicodin). They claimed that because it was created to be time released that it didn’t cause addiction like the immediate release medications. Obviously that was wrong. There was a time in the late 90s, early 2000s that you could even easily buy Vicodin online without a prescription. 

Thanks! I’m going to look up the book. I expect it will have a lot more detailed information. 

I didn’t realize you could once get Vicodin without a prescription. Wow. That is surprising. 

According to the information here, the two drugs are about the same. Hydrocodone also comes in a time-release tablet. I wonder if that was a market response to oxy.  

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/oxycodone-vs-hydrocodone#effectiveness

Edited November 7, 2021 by Sweet-tea

[Cinnabon]

30 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

Thanks! I’m going to look up the book. I expect it will have a lot more detailed information. 

I didn’t realize you could once get Vicodin without a prescription. Wow. That is surprising. 

According to the information here, the two drugs are about the same. Hydrocodone also comes in a time-release tablet. I wonder if that was a market response to oxy.  

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/oxycodone-vs-hydrocodone#effectiveness

You couldn’t get hydrocodone without a prescription- but it was easy to order from overseas sites. It took the US government several years to start clamping down on these overseas shipments.

[Nialla]

On 11/6/2021 at 5:38 PM, bilgistic said:

The first two paragraphs I quoted here are so helpful to me, so thank you. I also deal with chronic headaches/migraines and have as a result built up such a high pain tolerance that my migraines hardly respond to triptans and not at all to OTC painkillers. I finally, finally go to a new neurologist next week. It's been about five years since I've been, due to finances.

I hope you can find some relief. I've been getting Botox treatment for nearly a decade, and that's helped tremendously, but as with everything, it doesn't work for everyone. There's also a lot of new migraine-specific meds to try, but don't give up if one doesn't work for you. I went through multiple ones in the same family of drugs before hitting one that helped a bit. Triptans are now the emergency backup, and I don't think I've had one in about two years or so.

Watching this show has made me questions some of what I "know" about my own pain and treatment for it. How much of what I've been told over the years was based in false advertising to doctors?

[bilgistic]

I was able to have Botox treatment about five years ago and it worked well, but my insurance back then when I worked for a global commercial real estate firm paid for maybe only three rounds because of course it did. (Insurance: "This treatment worked for you? Well, we won't pay for it anymore then!") I'm work on a contractor basis for a small investment firm now and have insurance through the marketplace, so here's hoping I can get the shots again.

[Roxie]

Disappointed that this topic isn’t divided into episodes, since I encountered a spoiler in the first post.  Guess I won’t be back until I’m finished with all the episodes. ☹️

[Cinnabon]

38 minutes ago, Roxie said:

Disappointed that this topic isn’t divided into episodes, since I encountered a spoiler in the first post.  Guess I won’t be back until I’m finished with all the episodes. ☹️

I feel you, it’s frustrating!

[SunnyBeBe]

Isn’t there one episode released each week? 

[Cinnabon]

2 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Isn’t there one episode released each week? 

Yes.

[Quilt Fairy]

6 hours ago, Roxie said:

Disappointed that this topic isn’t divided into episodes, since I encountered a spoiler in the first post.  Guess I won’t be back until I’m finished with all the episodes. ☹️

 

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Isn’t there one episode released each week? 

The reason the early posts in the thread contain "spoilers" is that the thread was not created until about 3 episodes into the series.  If you've gotten this far, there won't be any more spoilers, it will be ep by ep each week, although I don't think there are more than 1 or 2 episodes left. 

[SunnyBeBe]

I’ve read there are 8 episodes total.  

[HelloooKitty]

Ooof. It’s not like I didn’t see it coming, but episode 7 was a gut punch. 
the Sacklers are truly evil. 

[Joan van Snark]

I have enjoyed the show, but I guess it is sort of necessary in a dramatized, few hours long series, that they greatly exaggerate how fast people can become addicted.  It rarely happens after taking the pills for a couple of weeks.  Usually it takes several months of continuous use to become desperately addicted like some of the people portrayed on the show.  And not every user gets to the point where they steal from their parents, prostitutes, breaks into pharmacies, etc.  When they run out they just get sick and deal with it.

[SoWindsor]

Damn, I saw it coming but didn’t make it any easier. It’s equally depressing and infuriating especially because it doesn’t seem like the Sacklers have paid for what they’ve done. 
 

Was Betsy always in withdrawal? I thought once she got clean that would go away. Does it really rewire your brain so you’re always in withdrawal?

I was prescribed a few OxyContin in 2011 when I had severe migraines. It helped but thankfully I was able to just stop taking them and started on nortriptyline for migraine prevention. That has worked for me.

[monakane]

On 11/7/2021 at 7:00 AM, Sweet-tea said:

One thing I’m not clear on from watching this special is the distinction they’re making between hydrocodone and oxy. Didn’t the opiod crisis include a lot of people hooked like my mother and sister who were addicted to Vicodin, Lortab, Percocet, etc. too? Is this show focusing on oxy because it was marketed as not being addictive? If that is the case, it still seems like they’re leaving off a big portion by not including other opiods

My mother became addicted to Percocet back in the 1980s.  She didn't even know she was addicted.  She had several prescriptions going at various pharmacy.  Her doctors gave her prescriptions like it was nothing.  In addition to Percocet, she was given Xanax and Halcyon by them.  I know alot of doctors were duped by Purdue, but in my experience, over prescribing was an issue before Oxy.

[LegalParrot81]

Michael Keaton as usual is hitting it out of the park.

After watching Kaitlyn Dever practically grow up on Last Man Standing, I was a little curious to see how she'd transition to heavy drama.  Well, that girl has some mad skills.  Not everyone can do both genres well, she can.

 

[SunnyBeBe]

20 hours ago, SoWindsor said:

Damn, I saw it coming but didn’t make it any easier. It’s equally depressing and infuriating especially because it doesn’t seem like the Sacklers have paid for what they’ve done. 
 

Was Betsy always in withdrawal? I thought once she got clean that would go away. Does it really rewire your brain so you’re always in withdrawal?

I was prescribed a few OxyContin in 2011 when I had severe migraines. It helped but thankfully I was able to just stop taking them and started on nortriptyline for migraine prevention. That has worked for me.

I had the same question.  Betts seemed clean, doing well, off meds and then suddenly, she’s sweating, scratching and hanging out in drug houses.  I would think you would get some reduction of withdrawal symptoms after abstaining for a few weeks.  
 

I also thought it was odd that the rehab facility didn’t have any aftercare plan for the doctor.  So, they just let him stand there in the parking lot with no plan for who’s picking him up?  Odd.  
 

I admit that I’m unsure how I feel about the doctor regaining his license if he’s still taking a narcotic…..anyone know the law on it?  I guess that’s a spoiler.  I wonder if this doctor will be restored.  He seems very shaky in his recovery.  

[Nialla]

4 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I had the same question.  Betts seemed clean, doing well, off meds and then suddenly, she’s sweating, scratching and hanging out in drug houses.  I would think you would get some reduction of withdrawal symptoms after abstaining for a few weeks.  
 

I also thought it was odd that the rehab facility didn’t have any aftercare plan for the doctor.  So, they just let him stand there in the parking lot with no plan for who’s picking him up?  Odd.  
 

I admit that I’m unsure how I feel about the doctor regaining his license if he’s still taking a narcotic…..anyone know the law on it?  I guess that’s a spoiler.  I wonder if this doctor will be restored.  He seems very shaky in his recovery.  

I don't think it's withdrawal, it's the craving for the next hit, then when she gives in and gets one, it starts the cycle all over again.

I do like the parallel between the doctor and his patient in regards to treatment. He's not rich, but he's well off enough to get into a nice rehab (which didn't really have handle on Oxy treatment) , go to therapy, and try multiple types of alternative meds to stay off Oxy.

Meanwhile, her family doesn't appear to have much, and I doubt they have health insurance. So she gets a half-assed rehab, no therapy, and is told by her preacher/guy in charge of her NA group (?) not to try drugs that could end her addiction.

I personally don't agree with the idea that staying on one of the treatments would automatically be bad because it's a narcotic. A lesser addiction, for lack of a better term, seems a better alternative to chasing highs and ending up dead

As far as a doctor on narcotics getting his license back, as long as he's being treated he'll also be monitored for signs of abuse. Maybe continued monitoring would be part of the deal.

We do know he eventually testifies, so that alone may be a huge part of his healing. Maybe he could use his medical knowledge to help people in a different way.

I'm still not liking the timeline stuff. Seriously wondering if someone could edit it chronologically and it hold up plot wise.