S03.E10: What Is Love?

[Door County Cherry]

Airs 10/15

Quote

As news permeates the community about a recent murder, Joe looks toward a future with Marienne—but hell hath no fury like Love scorned.

 

Edited October 15, 2021 by dubbel zout
added title and episode description

[eXiled]

"Oh, fuck. I'm gonna need more tarps."

Joe's internal dialogue after hearing Sherry shoot Cary.

I also noticed that the show must have heard my complaint from a few episodes ago. The bakery was packed this episode!

Re-watching this finale again because I wasn't sure how I felt about it the first time around. Personally, I kinda wanted You to become almost like American Horror Story -- sort of an anthology show, whose star and subject matter could change each year, though the underlying issue of creepy stalking would always remain. I wanted Love to either kill Joe and move on, or to take Henry and go on the run. She and Joe could have spent the next season running around the country playing Spy vs. Spy.

I knew that wouldn't happen, though. Producers rarely fuck with stuff that works. Also, Penn Badgley's fans would totally lose it all over the interwebs.

So Joe dosed himself with adrenaline. Okay. Fabulous that he was smart enough to do that. Also great that he lucked out with Cary's stash ...  just in time, huh? I mean, what would Joe have done if he didn't have any on hand? I get that he could have purchased some to defeat the aconite, but this coincidence bugged.

Also, upon re-watch, Joe's internal dialogue is all, "No no no. What the fuck am I gonna do now." I know. I know. Can't give too much away to the audience. But I wouldn't have minded hearing Joe think something along the lines of, "Thank goodness I always have a backup plan, otherwise, I'd be fucked..."

I loved Crazy Caged Couple and knew they would work things out despite their gunshot wounds. They are the same. They need each other. They make the other better. They want the same things. They're weird and fakey, but they work through their problems. They are forgiving and kind to each other, even after seeing the monster lurking inside the other. Wow. Not my style, but definitely healthier than a lot of relationships.

Letting someone bait you into doing something your antennae is saying is bad usually doesn't go well. Marienne should have said she had no self respect and walked away. I don't sleep on anyone -- not even smiling, petite women. True Crime binges have taught me that anyone can dish it! .

I'll admit that I liked Marienne better when she was just Joe's bitchy boss. Once she and Joe started their relationship, her personality was stripped down to Victim -- always in despair/danger/damage and I didn't really care about her anymore. I am, however, really happy that she and her kid got away from Love AND Joe's crazy ass. She's alive somewhere. Good for her.

What can I say about Love? I'll miss her. I grew to like her more than I like Joe. I like her sort of crazy much more, I guess, as she seems more impulsive and whimsical. Personally, I believed what she said to Joe at the end about them being perfect for each other. Yet she needed to die because Joe is far too damaged to ever see that. He'll always be on the hunt for new love. He's searching for something impossible, therefore, he'll never find it.

Matthew leaving Joe on the floor was fine. Yet I questioned him not calling the police. I don't really care that he left Joe to be tortured by Love. My issue was that he believed Love killed his wife. Wouldn't he want her to pay for that?

Joe leaving Henry with Dante was a stroke of genius. He knew Dante and his partner wanted to adopt. I'm surprised Dottie wasn't able to wrangle Forty Jr. away from them, however. Guess she isn't as powerful now that she's divorced? Or she became such a drunken shell she couldn't be trusted with her grandson.

Joe's got a little brother! Uh-oh.

The toes!

There's so much to digest. Done for now. Will definitely be back after more You STANS weigh in.

Edited October 16, 2021 by eXiled

[Spartan Girl]

Well, that ended exactly the way I thought it would.

I too wanted Love to kill Joe and run away. Maybe she was crazy, but in the end she was right about everything. The problem was the other women Joe was obsessed with, the problem was Joe. He never wanted a soulmate, he wants a fantasy. Love was a mirror to the real him, and he didn’t like that; for all his talk about wanting to be a better man, I don’t see him showing a lot of remorse for his past crimes, killing Beck and framing Dr. Nicky, among other things. Look how fast he was willing to kill Ryan in the name of his self-serving White Knight logic. He is in no position whatsoever to judge Love.

It’s a shame. That therapy scene in episode 2 could have been a real turning point, realizing that Love, unlike his other victims, saw the ugly parts of him and didn’t flinch.

At least Baby Henry is safe. For now. Even when Joe does the right thing, I still don’t trust him.

On 10/16/2021 at 6:16 AM, eXiled said:

I'll admit that I liked Marienne better when she was just Joe's bitchy boss. Once she and Joe started their relationship, her personality was stripped down to Victim -- always in despair/danger/damage and I didn't really care about her anymore. I am, however, really happy that she and her kid got away from Love AND Joe's crazy ass. She's alive somewhere. Good for her.

Again, for now. Joe is still fixated on her. She might be back next season though he’ll have to have one hell of a story ready about how and why he faked his death. And if it’s going to follow the books 

Spoiler

She’s doomed too

I really hope season 4 will be the last. I’m a little tired of watching Joe get away with everything. He’s long overdue for some comeuppance.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Ms Lark]

1 hour ago, eXiled said:

"Oh, fuck. I'm gonna need more tarps."

Line of the week!

43 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I’m a little tired of watching Joe get away with everything.

Especially since he never wears gloves or worries about DNA evidence! Drags bodies into the car in broad daylight. Huh?

Well, it was an interesting binge, but too many plot holes.

[Spartan Girl]

Another good point alive made: Joe made a big show about abetting Love’s murders, but was more than happy kill “for” Marianne (among others). Just more proof that Joe likes his conquests to be passive victims.

Joe’s mom sucks, turning Joe away for a new life with a new son.

Maybe the series finale will have Joe track his mom down and get revenge on her and his half brother. That could be a good way to go out.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[scowl]

I mostly liked this because they really added a lot of interesting conflict and relationships, and I feel like I have a better understand of Joe's insane motivations and his fragile ego. Best of all, almost none of it reminded me of Dexter.

On the other hand the plot depended on a lot of stupid mistakes like screaming about murder when guests were in the house and a few annoyingly smart moves like Joe taking adrenaline antidote tablets at the one time he thought they were going to save his life. I don't watch much television so maybe this is typical of shows these days? It seemed like the plot could only go so far unless another person got murdered so it was a little predictable during the last three episodes.

[DB in CMH]

I enjoyed this way more than season 2 - better characters, more interesting locale, less exposition about Joe's childhood (which seemed to drag on and on in season 2). I liked the two psychopaths trying to outsmart each other. But I agree - lots of plot holes and people generally doing dumb things. 

It's not Shakespeare though, so I put it on and play Candy Crush for a few hours. There are worse ways to spend 10 hours.

Edited October 17, 2021 by DB in CMH

[Persnickety1]

I really enjoyed this season as much as the previous two.  

I'm almost embarrassed to admit I started to actually like Sherry and Carey when they were locked in the cage together.  Ironic how being trapped together (and shooting each other) brought them closer together.  I was glad when they found the key.

And next season set in Paris as Joe tries to track down Marianne?

Oh yeah, count me in!

Thanks, Netflix, for letting us know season 4 is on its way 🥂

Edited October 17, 2021 by Persnickety1

[dubbel zout]

On 10/16/2021 at 7:11 AM, Spartan Girl said:

I really hope season 4 will be the last. I’m a little tired of watching Joe get away with everything. He’s long overdue for some comeuppance.

Same. As enjoyable as the show is in its sick, twisted way, it's time for Joe to get caught.

3 hours ago, Persnickety1 said:

I'm almost embarrassed to admit I started to actually like Sherry and Carey when they were locked in the cage together.  Ironic how being trapped together (and shooting each other) brought them closer together.  I was glad when they found the key.

Those crazy kids are as bonkers in their own way as Love and Joe, but I'm glad they got away, too. And of course they figured out a way to monetize what happened. Sherry is not stupid.

I love that Matthew just left Joe there on the floor. Hee. Good for Matthew.

Where did Joe get the money to go to Paris? We never saw his go bag with cash and new IDs, heh.

 

[gesundheit]

On 10/16/2021 at 7:59 AM, Ms Lark said:

Especially since he never wears gloves or worries about DNA evidence! Drags bodies into the car in broad daylight. Huh?

Well, it was an interesting binge, but too many plot holes.

I have to say I loved this season most of all the seasons (there was something great about the first since I watched it weekly on Lifetime, truly having the gradual realization over the weeks that it wasn't what it seemed, so always something magical there, but I was pretty much salivating about moving from episode to episode in this new season). But yeah, with so much made of all the cameras in town, odd that Joe could just drag bodies all over the place, including dropping one off at the hospital, and nobody would be the wiser. And Matthew and Theo had no further questions after everything??

I also don't understand why he dropped the kid off with Dante before spending hours executing his plan. Seems like Dante might've called the authorities when the kid turned up on his doorstep?

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Where did Joe get the money to go to Paris? We never saw his go bag with cash and new IDs, heh.

That too! 

Also many questions about how his adrenaline kicked in right after Marienne left but before Love tried to off him. Hmm.

Kind of chilling how well-versed he is that he could turn Love into a sort of suburban feminist hero like that, but of course that's precisely the ammunition he's so facile with when manipulating his You avatars.

Anyway, despite my questions about plot conveniences/contrivances in the finale, it was a delight. I'm mad he got away with everything again, but delighted for a new season. (Although I hope it doesn't stay in Paris for the season. There's a certain authenticity of place that the show has always had that I would miss. I guess if he's really after Marienne he'd realize that's the last place she'd be.)

 

And finally: Sherry and Cary, my new favorite duo!

Edited October 17, 2021 by gesundheit

[peachmangosteen]

On 10/16/2021 at 7:11 AM, Spartan Girl said:

I really hope season 4 will be the last. I’m a little tired of watching Joe get away with everything. He’s long overdue for some comeuppance.

This. I was really hoping Love would kill Joe and next season she would basically be the new Joe. I'm just SO over him. I too hope next season is the last and Joe ends up in prison for life.

Matthew was so pointless but I enjoy watching Scott Speedman so I'm not complaining. I wasn't sure how we were supposed to see him though, especially since he said to his lawyer that 'Joe seems OK' after he saw Joe punch a wall by Love's head.

I didn't like Theo at all at first but by the end I was SO glad he survived. He was a cutie. It did crack me up though that the actor is actually older than the Love actress in real life.

I still liked season 2 best. I just liked Delilah, Forty, Ellie, and Candace more than I've liked any of the other side characters. ETA: I loved Peach in s1 and I liked some of the side characters this season but the ones from s2 were just overall stronger for me.

[Spartan Girl]

We have to give Love credit: warning Marianne about Joe and telling her that he killed Ryan was the kindest thing anyone’s done for Joe’s victims. And unlike Candice, she didn’t need much evidence. Marianne admitted that her gut instinct told her there was something off about him. That and the fact that he was dumb enough to open up about how he killed his dad to protect his mom…and then there was the fact that Natalie lived next door to him and then disappeared. Once Love filled her in, she was able to put two and two together.

So I really hope if Joe tracks her down, she doesn’t buy whatever bullshit he tries to pull on her.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[scowl]

17 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

Also many questions about how his adrenaline kicked in right after Marienne left but before Love tried to off him. Hmm.

So he wasn't faking it the whole time? I didn't care for this final twist.

[gesundheit]

3 minutes ago, scowl said:

So he wasn't faking it the whole time? I didn't care for this final twist.

If he was faking it I don't think he would've been in such a panic about both Matthew and Marienne, right? His inner monologue was freaking out about how it was going to end this way and trying to will Juliette into looking at him, etc. I think we're meant to take the inner monologue at face value.

[scowl]

48 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

If he was faking it I don't think he would've been in such a panic about both Matthew and Marienne, right? His inner monologue was freaking out about how it was going to end this way and trying to will Juliette into looking at him, etc. I think we're meant to take the inner monologue at face value.

Oh, that's right. He was hoping her daughter would see him paralyzed. So the "antidote" suddenly kicking in after a long time is even harder for me to swallow. I wish they could have come up with something better.

[Door County Cherry]

I finished this yesterday but haven't had a chance to get to writing about the whole thing until today.  

I thought there was too much "flashbacks to Joe as a child."  It irks me that this show is taking this approach that a woman is to blame for creating this misogynist serial killer.  Oh how unique and clever.  

Except not.  It's such a Hollywood cliche at this point.  

And I guess we're going to probably see Joe's brother in a future season.  

46 minutes ago, scowl said:

So he wasn't faking it the whole time? I didn't care for this final twist.

No.  I guess the antidote didn't kick in completely right away or only diminished some of the effects of Love's poison.  I don't think he'd fake while Marianne was there.  I do think he'd fake it while Matthew is there since he was a witness to Joe being tied up and it'd help support Joe's macabre "ending."

1 hour ago, gesundheit said:

And finally: Sherry and Cary, my new favorite duo!

I know.  Sherry especially.  I thought she was insufferable in the beginning but she rocked at the end. I especially love that it wasn't Cary tinkering around for a weak spot that got them out; although he might have found Joe's hidden key if he had.  Rather, it was Sherry realizing Love and Joe's dynamic was one of distrust and there'd be a key in there.  

If there is a Emily In Paris/You crossover, can it please end with Joe killing Emily?  

I'm trying to think about how this will end satisfactorily.  Joe getting caught?  Probably.  But I need to care about the person who catches him.  Will it be Sherry?  Will it be Dr. Fox who he framed?  

 

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, gesundheit said:

And Matthew and Theo had no further questions after everything??

I feel like they figured out what happened and that was enough, and they didn't want to spend another minute with Joe and/or Love.

23 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

It irks me that this show is taking this approach that a woman is to blame for creating this misogynist serial killer. 

Yes, that's extremely disappointing. Mommy is the root of all evil. Ugh.

26 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

Rather, it was Sherry realizing Love and Joe's dynamic was one of distrust and there'd be a key in there.  

That and the lock on the inside. That was the biggest clue there was likely a key in the cage.

27 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

If there is a Emily In Paris/You crossover, can it please end with Joe killing Emily?  

LOL. I wonder what the over/under is for that?

[gesundheit]

1 hour ago, Door County Cherry said:

I thought there was too much "flashbacks to Joe as a child." 

I agree. I absolutely do not care about his childhood. We see his pathology in living color in every moment of the show, we don't need more filling in from backstory. That was the part of the season I could've done without entirely. I doubt most of those other boys from the group home grew up to be serial killers. He's the bully now, so cry me a river.

I admit I had a tendency to get distracted and not focus too closely on those scenes. The buck has to stop somewhere in generational trauma, so are we going to get backstories of how horribly Joe's mother was treated to make her that way, how Dottie was abused to make her such a bad mother? Because they might've been crappy parents, but again, probably not serial killers. Sorry to be low-compassion on this, I guess, but gosh golly, I just have to keep drawing the line at "serial killers!"

[Chaos Theory]

Sherry and Cary really do love each other.   This is real love warts and all.  “Those freaky bitches don’t trust each other.”  Chekhov’s key.   

I am glad Love didn’t kill Marienne.  Marienne talking to Love about toxic men while Joe layed their up  was really well done.  

 

Kinda pissed that Love died.   

 

My big problem is that a single Joe again heads back to the boring boy stalks girl trope.   I really enjoyed the toxic relationship between Joe and Love and how neither of them trusted each other and both continually got caught up in their own bad habits.  THAT I found interesting.   I am not sure another new location is enough to sustain another season without a substantial change and just making Joe single again is not  a substantial change.  

Edited October 18, 2021 by Chaos Theory

[Lady Calypso]

Well, this ending was completely predictable. To be honest, it was predictable well before this season was even filmed. Because of the show's premise, it was predictable the moment Love was introduced, that she would not survive very long. She was only spared last season because she was pregnant. I knew she wouldn't be so lucky this season and knew her ending was her demise. Which is a shame, because they really could have twisted things up and had Joe and Love in a Mr. and Mrs. Smith situation, trying to kill each other at every turn but other forces getting in the way (mostly Henry). Or, better, have the twist be that Joe is the one who gets offed by Love, and Love becomes the new narrator. Victoria Pedretti is such an excellent and underrated actress. I hope to see her in way more projects down the line, because she is super talented. Love was the real star of the season for me. 

I found myself enjoying this season more than last in terms of plot (the pacing, the locale, and themes of this season interested me way more), but I think I liked last season's batch of characters more than this season (I really liked Forty, Candace, Ellie, and Delilah). I think Sherry's enjoyment grew in the latter half, more than the first half. And most of the other characters didn't make much of an impression, though I did enjoy Theo and Matthew, for the most part, and Marienne. So the characters this season weren't BAD; I just think most were enjoyable and fleshed out in season 2, and this season only had some fleshed out and others kind of pushed to the side at times.

Speaking of poor Marienne, she's not out of Joe's grasp for long and what's worse is that I don't know if she fully bought what Love told her, or if she'll go back to Joe when he finds her. I'm hoping it's the latter, but at the same time, I know her death is upon us at some point. No woman has seemed to be able to escape Joe alive, so I definitely worry about when it'll happen for her. 

I was underwhelmed by Matthew and Theo's ending. Matthew was a good guy; maybe not a good dad, but I appreciate that, besides the spying, he really had the best of intentions. Theo was creepy and pushy, BUT he was also taken advantage of by Love, who is older than him by quite a few years so I did feel bad for the kid since Love never fully shut him down. She half shut him down but then kept reeling him back in. So for Theo to be almost killed by Love? Brutal. We didn't really get anything after that, besides Matthew/Theo seemingly repairing their relationship.

I do think there were various continuity/plot issues overall, such as all the cameras in town and not a single one caught any of Joe and Love's crimes (besides that ONE angle that Theo caught near the end)...and especially Matthew conveniently taking a break from spying on the Quinn-Goldberg house when Joe and Love were knocking out Cary and Sherry...and then cleaning up their crime afterward...and apparently the cameras didn't capture any angle of their car....oh, and how convenient that Love's work basement was essentially soundproof with those big steel doors.

There was a lot to handwave, for sure, but I still enjoyed much of what they told this season. But, unlike last season's big twist with Love, there was no twist this season. 

I did feel for Love at points. I think she did do a lot of bad stuff, but her destiny was written in stone the moment she entered Joe's life. Unfortunately, that's what happens when the show is about Joe, not Love, and they weren't willing for a bait-and-switch. And I did like how Marienne and Love bonded a bit in their final scene. Marienne taking Love's side was actually really well done. Despite Marienne spending way more time with Joe and knowing him better, even with her hearing his stories and everything, she still believed Love. I think that has to do with Joe's murder confession, but it was still nice that she listened to Love and promptly took off. So I hope, when Joe finds her, she won't forget what Love warned her about. I have to imagine she would have heard about Joe/Love's deaths and seeing Joe in the flesh would make her run for the hills once more.

 Overall, it was a solid season. I don't know if season 4 will be interesting enough. Watching Joe parade around Paris to find Marienne? I can't see that being a whole season arc and I also can't see Marienne surviving much longer after Joe finds her, because she's not just going to accept Joe's faked death. And seeing Joe find ANOTHER woman to obsess with? Unless it's his mother and it's his final showdown with her and his brother, then I'm not quite sure how interesting it'll be. But we'll see.

[Door County Cherry]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

Matthew conveniently taking a break from spying on the Quinn-Goldberg house when Joe and Love were knocking out Cary and Sherry...and then cleaning up their crime afterward...and apparently the cameras didn't capture any angle of their car....oh, and how convenient that Love's work basement was essentially soundproof with those big steel doors.

Cary and Sherry hosted the foursome.  I don't think Matthew was spying on their house. 

[DoubleUTeeEff]

This season was much improved over season 2. Season 2 was basically a retread of season 1 so I'm glad they found a way to keep things fresh in season 3. Everything moved along at a nice clip, too. Natalie was surprisingly disposed of quickly and we didn't have to spend too much time with Gil in the cage, although the way he died of suicide was sad. The change of scene from NYC to the suburbs was good too so that makes me hopeful for season 4.

Joe's tiny speck of self-awareness into his "mommy issues" didn't even dent him. He continues to stalk Marienne AND he abandoned his son! He did have the good sense to pick a good set of parents for Henry, though. Henry will be much better off with them. I feel sorry for him for when Joe shows up in his life again. I really hope Marienne escaped Joe for good. She's been through enough with her ex. I'd be surprised if she did go to Paris since she had told Joe about it.

I loved Sherry like everyone else. The character had the capacity to really be annoying so major kudos to Shalita Grant for making her fun instead of just a pain. It really shows you what a good actor can do with a part. (She also played the defense attorney in season 3 of Search Party and did a fantastic job. She was just so funny. I giggle just thinking about her courtroom scenes.) "Don't get hysterical! I'm just going to graze you!" before shooting her husband in the leg was hilarious.

I didn't like Love as much as everyone else though. She's basically a female Joe but not quite as funny. I don't buy any of her justifications. I don't buy Joe's either to be fair, but I really don't think she she's any better just because she's impulsive. Her kills are just as self-serving as Joe's are.  I actually liked Beck much better. I know everyone thought she was basic but at least she liked to read and she had a normal reaction to Joe: disgust and revulsion.

I'm glad Sherry and Carey made it out of the cage and that Theo survived. I think it actually makes sense that once Matthew found out that Theo was in the hospital, he left to go find him instead of trying to get revenge on Love. He learned his lesson with Natalie that becoming consumed with revenge is detrimental and with Theo he still had a chance at a relationship so he chose to concentrate on that. Plus, he was vindicated since his suspicions about the whole ordeal turned out to be correct. Plus later, Love turned up dead anyway.

I did enjoy Joe's "suicide note" that he penned for Love. It was reminiscent of Beck's novel. He likes to give his women a nice conclusion, I guess as a book lover himself.

 

[RealReality]

Binge watched this season because I'm too much of a baby for squid game and really, REALLT enjoyed it.  

There are some moments of disbelief but I thought the entire season of the desperate life of rich suburbanites was really interesting. 

I looved the nod to desperate housewives with Marcia cross as a guest star.  

I enjoyed the new characters and situations and I liked that everything was kinda neatly wrapped up so thar season 3 was a standalone. 

Tony Bennet left his heart in San Francisco and Joe goldberg left his toes in Madera Linda.  

1 hour ago, Door County Cherry said:

Cary and Sherry hosted the foursome.  I don't think Matthew was spying on their house. 

No. Their house was being redecorated by "elon musks" decorator so Joe and love hosted the threesome. 

The name dropping was so casual. 

Edited October 18, 2021 by RealReality

[scowl]

40 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I loved Sherry like everyone else.

One thing they did well (as in previous seasons) was drop Joe into a bunch of people that made him easily feel superior. Many times he seemed like the only adult among teenagers and that made his aloof attitude really entertaining. If he didn't have people to hate I think his psyche would crumble.

[dubbel zout]

10 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Despite Marienne spending way more time with Joe and knowing him better, even with her hearing his stories and everything, she still believed Love. I think that has to do with Joe's murder confession, but it was still nice that she listened to Love and promptly took off.

I think Love talking about self-worth, something Marienne clearly had struggled with for a long time, that's what sealed it. She saw Love had some of the same issues, and tying them to Joe made them that much realer to Marienne.

Love was definitely the more dangerous killer, as she did it out of emotion. She was a loose cannon—her screaming about killing Natalie is what sunk her and Joe. She didn't have much impulse control, whereas Joe planned things meticulously. Things didn't always go according to that plan, but he'd thought things through enough to adjust.

[Spartan Girl]

8 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I did enjoy Joe's "suicide note" that he penned for Love. It was reminiscent of Beck's novel. He likes to give his women a nice conclusion, I guess as a book lover himself.

It’s actually chilling how Joe uses that to have power over his victims even in death. He gets to control the narrative right to the end: the fake Facebook travel posts with Candice, Peach’s “suicide” note, using Beck’s manuscript to frame Dr. Nicky, and now penning Love’s suicide note to make sure everyone knows she’s the only villain and he’s the victim. And as of now, nobody seems to question it (and survive). They all just accept it and move on with their lives. It just really hits home how disposable all the dead girls are once they don’t live to his ideals.

Whether it not you preferred Love to Joe, it’s another disappointing example of how psychotic/stalker female characters get called out and punished for their behavior more than male stalkers do. Love dies and Joe escapes. Again.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Spartan Girl

[Chaos Theory]

What I actually did like about this season is the alternate trajectories the show takes with the characters.  Joe (and to an extent Love) become less complicated as each episode goes along.  They are simply killers who will always fall back into old habits because they are incapable of real growth.     While all the side characters (most notably Sherry, Cary, Theo, and Matthew) all start out as cardboard tropes but by the finale almost look like characters that could front their own series.     It’s the irony that Joe can’t exist in the suburbs because he isn’t a real person while I hated Sherry during the pilot but I was glad she survived warts and all at the end.

Edited October 18, 2021 by Chaos Theory

[peachmangosteen]

12 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Matthew was a good guy; maybe not a good dad, but I appreciate that, besides the spying, he really had the best of intentions.

I don't think he was that great of a guy tbh after he said he thought Joe was OK but Love was a problem even after he saw Joe punch a wall by Love's face. But then he went off on Joe at the end, which made no sense to me. Matthew was just a really pointless and badly written character. They're lucky they got Scott Speedman for the part or Matthew would have been a complete failure.

11 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

Cary and Sherry hosted the foursome.  I don't think Matthew was spying on their house. 

The foursome was at Joe and Love's house. But also, I think Matthew had access to like every camera in Madre Linda, didn't he? He could have spied on Cary and Sherry if he wanted to but he didn't suspect them.

[RealReality]

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

It’s actually chilling how Joe uses that to have power over his victims even in death. He gets to control the narrative right to the end: the fake Facebook travel posts with Candice, Peach’s “suicide” note, using Beck’s manuscript to frame Dr. Nicky, and now penning Love’s suicide note to make sure everyone knows she’s the only villain and he’s the victim. And as of now, nobody seems to question it (and survive). They all just accept it and move on with their lives. It just really hits home how disposable all the dead girls are once they don’t live to his ideals.

Whether it not you preferred Love to Joe, it’s another disappointing example of how psychotic/stalker female characters get called out and punished for their behavior more than male stalkers do. Love dies and Joe escapes. Again.

I think this is an interesting point.  I hadn't thought about it from a sexism perspective, but I remember seeing that Penn Badgley was a producer and wondered if he had any say in the script or the storyline.  

Because he was presented in a far more sympathetic light than Love, IMO.  And mostly because nearly every death or "bad act" could be tied to her impulsivity.or "craziness."  Joe had held back with Natalie and was trying to do the right thing, but Love went crazy and then they had a body on their hands....her fault.  

Love got mad at Gill and hit him in the head with a rolling pin.  Now they have a body on their hands because Love is impulsive and crazy (and I enjoy how using her name in this context is a statement above love itself).  

Love decided to impulsively and stupidly talk about how Joe forced her to kill Natalie in the middle of some swing session with their neighbors.  That's Loves fault.  

Love decided to hit some poor, dumb kid who was in Love with her and kill him.  Another body on their hands that is Love's fault.  

Joe is presented, even on the show as having flawed, but noble kills.  Ryan pretty much, right?  There was not a single redeemable thing about that character until the very end.  

I hadn't considered sexism (though, "impulsive woman" is familiar) but more than Badgley may have had some role in helping to shape the narrative.    

7 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

What I actually did like about this season is the alternate trajectories the show takes with the characters.  Joe (and to an extent Love) become less complicated as each episode goes along.  They are simply killers who will always fall back into old habits because they are incapable of real growth.     While all the side characters (most notably Sherry, Cary, Theo, and Matthew) all start out as cardboard tropes but by the finale almost look like characters that could front their own series.     It’s the irony that Joe can’t exist in the suburbs because he isn’t a real person while I hated Sherry during the pilot but I was glad she survived warts and all at the end.

What an interesting point.  Love, at the end, became real one dimensional ("we can make it a murder/suicide" "here is a gun, one of you is getting out").  

But I agree, in the first few episodes, I wondered when Sherry and Cary were going to die and was hoping for something particularly gruesome.  But I really liked them both by the end.  

[gesundheit]

24 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Joe is presented, even on the show as having flawed, but noble kills.  Ryan pretty much, right?  There was not a single redeemable thing about that character until the very end.  

It's more, I think, that Joe is presented as having kills he can convince himself are noble. That's why he's more dangerous and calculating, because of what he can convince himself (and likely others) of, and why he's more likely to get away with it.

[dubbel zout]

48 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I think Matthew had access to like every camera in Madre Linda, didn't he? He could have spied on Cary and Sherry if he wanted to but he didn't suspect them.

That's why he asked his employee for her facial-recognition algorithm: So he could start ruling people out and concentrate on the ones who had seen/been with Natalie the day of her disappearance.

43 minutes ago, RealReality said:

There was not a single redeemable thing about [Ryan] until the very end.  

What was redeemable about Ryan? He was still doing drugs, he was in cahoots with the judge, he got full custody of his daughter by lying, and he was taking her across he country away from her mother. I'm not saying he deserved to die, but he wasn't a good person.

45 minutes ago, RealReality said:

I hadn't considered sexism (though, "impulsive woman" is familiar) but more than Badgley may have had some role in helping to shape the narrative.    

Joe gets the focus because it's his show. I don't mean than in a flip way, but of course he'll get the plot loopholes, especially when there's another season on the way.

I think Badgley tries to make sure Joe doesn't get romanticized.

[Door County Cherry]

2 hours ago, RealReality said:

I hadn't considered sexism (though, "impulsive woman" is familiar) but more than Badgley may have had some role in helping to shape the narrative.    

I think Penn's EP designation is more vanity than creative. (And I don't use vanity in a bad way.  It's a way to give actors a larger stake in the show but it doesn't mean they have much creative control. )

Penn is very vocal about how he doesn't want you to cheer for Joe or romanticize him. I think it makes him uncomfortable when people do.

I can't say much more without talking a bit about the books.   I'll put a briefish vaguely book thought behind spoilers.

Spoiler

I think the show adds backstory to add content.

I also think that Joe narrates the book and everything that happens in the book.  If we hate a character it's because Joe hates the character.  Actions and words are literally filtered through Joe's mind before we receive them.

With the show, they're not.  The show has more of an 'objective observer' quality to it.

 

[Lady Calypso]

54 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

Penn is very vocal about how he doesn't want you to cheer for Joe or romanticize him. I think it makes him uncomfortable when people do.

I appreciate that about Penn, that he's so open about his interpretation of his own character, especially since he would know him best as he has to get into that mindset for months on end, and he's using his platform as an actor, and as the person portraying this character, that they shouldn't be rooting for Joe. And I think that also shapes how he portrays Joe onscreen, as well. He makes sure he toes the line between Joe's persona vs who he really is. 

3 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I don't think he was that great of a guy tbh after he said he thought Joe was OK but Love was a problem even after he saw Joe punch a wall by Love's face. But then he went off on Joe at the end, which made no sense to me. Matthew was just a really pointless and badly written character. They're lucky they got Scott Speedman for the part or Matthew would have been a complete failure.

I think he's a good guy in terms of the show. None of the characters on this show have been objectively good people. They've all done some pretty terrible things. So my measure for Matthew's morality is in terms of the show. He definitely wasn't without his flaws (spying on people, reading the situation with Joe and Love wrong, treating his son the way he did) but I do think Scott Speedman's performance helped a lot, and I do think that Matthew still TRIED to do good. 

2 hours ago, RealReality said:

Joe is presented, even on the show as having flawed, but noble kills.  Ryan pretty much, right?  There was not a single redeemable thing about that character until the very end.  

I mean, noble in terms of how he twists certain actions to excuse his kills. But he isn't killing these people because they're bad; he's killing them because they're in his way, or he thinks he's doing the right thing. He killed Ryan so he could be with Marienne. He killed Jasper in season 2 because he was extorting Joe. 

Sure, some of his kills were "noble", I guess. But most of his kills only present as noble, but he's not doing them out of nobility; he's killing people because he enjoys it. You can twist anything to make it seem like a person is deserving of death. Take Beck, for example. Yes, she wasn't necessarily a good person but she died because she didn't return Joe's love. She died because she had the audacity to say no and was going to turn him in. Her death wasn't noble in the slightest. 

[RealReality]

3 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

 

I mean, noble in terms of how he twists certain actions to excuse his kills. But he isn't killing these people because they're bad; he's killing them because they're in his way, or he thinks he's doing the right thing. He killed Ryan so he could be with Marienne. He killed Jasper in season 2 because he was extorting Joe. 

Sure, some of his kills were "noble", I guess. But most of his kills only present as noble, but he's not doing them out of nobility; he's killing people because he enjoys it. You can twist anything to make it seem like a person is deserving of death. Take Beck, for example. Yes, she wasn't necessarily a good person but she died because she didn't return Joe's love. She died because she had the audacity to say no and was going to turn him in. Her death wasn't noble in the slightest. 

But to me, the point is better made if he didn't tell kinda objectively shitty people.  

When Love killed Natalie, it was because she got her in her, and yes when Joe killed Ryan, it was because he got in his way.  

Natalie was "kinda flawed" by Ryan was just an awful guy.  

4 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I think Penn's EP designation is more vanity than creative. (And I don't use vanity in a bad way.  It's a way to give actors a larger stake in the show but it doesn't mean they have much creative control. )

Penn is very vocal about how he doesn't want you to cheer for Joe or romanticize him. I think it makes him uncomfortable when people do.

I can't say much more without talking a bit about the books.   I'll put a briefish vaguely book thought behind spoilers.

  Hide contents

I think the show adds backstory to add content.

I also think that Joe narrates the book and everything that happens in the book.  If we hate a character it's because Joe hates the character.  Actions and words are literally filtered through Joe's mind before we receive them.

With the show, they're not.  The show has more of an 'objective observer' quality to it.

 

Thank you for the spoiler, that actually makes sense.  

5 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

That's why he asked his employee for her facial-recognition algorithm: So he could start ruling people out and concentrate on the ones who had seen/been with Natalie the day of her disappearance.

What was redeemable about Ryan? He was still doing drugs, he was in cahoots with the judge, he got full custody of his daughter by lying, and he was taking her across he country away from her mother. I'm not saying he deserved to die, but he wasn't a good person.

Joe gets the focus because it's his show. I don't mean than in a flip way, but of course he'll get the plot loopholes, especially when there's another season on the way.

I think Badgley tries to make sure Joe doesn't get romanticized.

I don't know why I made that comment?  I agree with you Ryan sucked from start to finish.  Maybe I was tired.  

Edited October 18, 2021 by RealReality

[Chaos Theory]

Joe has always been looking for that perfect ideal woman and he shows his love in the old fashioned “romantic” gestures of love.    So his usual target is abusive men because he thinks it’s his job to protect these poor innocent women from men who just don’t understand them like he does.   The problem is that if these very same women don’t appreciate him for his gestures of love Joe is just as capable of being the very same abusive man he is protecting his latest “You” from.  

[DB in CMH]

Joe is clearly crazy too, but he just convinces himself that he's not. That's what I enjoyed about the Joe/Love juxtaposition - they are clearly mirrors of each other, yet Joe is so unselfaware that he's like "WTF is her problem?" Were this real life and not a show based on Joe, either one of them could have ended up dead at the end of the season and it would have made complete sense.

[DrSpaceman73]

I found this season just too far fetched to take seriously.  By the end I just found it comical more than dramatic or tense. 

Theo is just a douche who is headed for no good, wouldnt have been sad if he died.  Such arrogant little manipulative s***

Did not recognize Mackenzie Aston at all.  

And seriously really the can bitch about the suburbs and married life with a kid but let's not forget. :

They live in a very nice house in probably one of the richest counties in the country, neither has a serious job and they have all the money they could desire. Yes she has her bakery doubtful they were living off that money though. Oh, my life is so awful, with no financial worries, a job I love that isn't really needed and a hot young wife/ husband! Wait I have to take care of my own kid on top of 'all' that......sometimes???  The horror!!! 

But my original point, the dark comedy part of this was that they were running around killing people without the other one knowing. 

But seriously, it wasn't the killing part that bothered either one of them.  It was the lying about it.  That is what ruined them. Ok the killings we can get by that.  Just dont lie to me!

[Glade]

I preferred season 2.  I'm so glad Theo survived, he's a good kid and can grow a lot with love and support.  I guess there's no chance Love actually survived and escaped?  She did terrible things, including domestic violence to her first husband (someone who survived cancer and realized he wanted to change his life), but was really chilling seeing her die, in a place so distant from where the character was for most of S2. 

Joe should really be changing his appearance - hair color and cut at least, when he escapes and takes on a new identity.   I'm glad we finally got the answer to where Joe's mother is, but damn she is quite a scumbag.  Joe's younger brother is bound to show up.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Glade

[DiabLOL]

It annoyed me how security cameras were supposedly “everywhere” except when it was inconvenient for some other plot points. I couldn’t even believe the librarian didn’t have both an outside and inside camera given all that was going in in her life, or frankly “just because”. 

Who carved the chicken? Wasn’t the wolfsbane salve all over the carving knife? 

About the wolfsbane salve. First of all I found it ridiculous that Joe photographed everything in her garden in order to look up. I know they’re supposed to be all suspicious of each other but I found that to be too much? Also, pretty sure to make a jar of potent salve that size it would take a shit ton of the starring raw ingredient, not the small amount she was growing.  Then you’d have to wait until it’s ready to harvest and then you have to use distillery methods with appropriate equipment or make a tincture which would take months. So how the hell did she make a big potent jar so inconspicuously and quickly?! I know she can presumably whip up two dozen amazing thematically correct cupcakes in five minutes but come on! There were so many instances where it reminded me of Wile E. Coyote conveniently acquring some ACME product.

[peachmangosteen]

6 hours ago, DiabLOL said:

Who carved the chicken? Wasn’t the wolfsbane salve all over the carving knife? 

Love carved it with an oven mitt on. Which I noted was very odd but I didn't think she had laced the knife with poison lol.

[DearEvette]

Wait... so Joe makes his own pie crust from scratch?  Huh.

Anyway, Hells yeah!  Sherry and Carey Forever!! The lived and triumphed. And I loved them talking about how much they loved each other -- he loved her big glasses.  And he made himself a better person for her.  Awww.  And yeah Sherry is smart. 

I love that Matthew left Joe to die.  LOL  But it is interesting that he always suspected Love from the beginning and not Joe.

I think one of my biggest issues with Love is the same issue I have with people that ave all their vitriol for the other person their spouse is cheating with but give their spouse a pass.  The other woman/man isn't the one betraying you.  And Love has no issue with straight out murking the other person while Joe is right there.  He is the problem, not these other women.  And here she is finally on the point killing Joe (Yay, her!) but she still would have killed Marienne if Juliette hadn't come in at that point.   So I don't root for her at all.  I knew either she or Joe would not make it out alive at the end of this season and I was reasonably sure it would not be Joe, since this is still his POV show.

Glad Theo made it out alive but wished we saw a little more of the aftermath with him and Matthew than the little bit we got.

Great season.  I fear that Marienne is still on Joe's radar.  And he'll find her.

And yeah as much as this show has been good tv, it has a limited shelf life.  Joe needs to get his comeuppance really badly.  I just hope it is at the hands of one of his obsessions.

 

[Spartan Girl]

9 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I think one of my biggest issues with Love is the same issue I have with people that ave all their vitriol for the other person their spouse is cheating with but give their spouse a pass.  The other woman/man isn't the one betraying you.  And Love has no issue with straight out murking the other person while Joe is right there.  He is the problem, not these other women.  And here she is finally on the point killing Joe (Yay, her!) but she still would have killed Marienne if Juliette hadn't come in at that point. 

Well, to be fair, that was the moment that finally woke her up, made her see that Joe was the actual problem and not the women. A shame her moment of clarity didn’t come before she killed Natalie.

[Samsnee]

I enjoyed this season more than S2. Forty was too annoying for me and it felt too much like S1 until the final twist. 
 

While I did enjoy it his season over all it was definitely uneven. I enjoyed it when Joe and Love somehow worked together as a functional dysfunctional couple. There was a lot of dark humor there. But the Marianne storyline dragged and felt too reminiscent of S1 and S2. 
 

Next season should be the last season. It’s getting ridiculously unbelievable he hasn’t gotten caught yet. 

[DearEvette]

On 10/17/2021 at 11:11 PM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I loved Sherry like everyone else. The character had the capacity to really be annoying so major kudos to Shalita Grant for making her fun instead of just a pain. It really shows you what a good actor can do with a part. (She also played the defense attorney in season 3 of Search Party and did a fantastic job. She was just so funny. I giggle just thinking about her courtroom scenes.) "Don't get hysterical! I'm just going to graze you!" before shooting her husband in the leg was hilarious.

Now that I've finished I went and looked up cast interviews etc.  There are a whole series of them, featuring Penn, Victoria, Shalita and Travis.  There was one point where she says 'Cassidy (her character from Search Party) walked so that Sherry could run."  I thought that was perfect because i could see where she took pieces of Cassidy and put them into Sherry, but Sherry is definitely amore refined and had a lot more bite (and Cassidy had more vocal fry).

[Whimsy]

On 10/18/2021 at 10:02 AM, peachmangosteen said:

I don't think he was that great of a guy tbh after he said he thought Joe was OK but Love was a problem even after he saw Joe punch a wall by Love's face. But then he went off on Joe at the end, which made no sense to me. Matthew was just a really pointless and badly written character. They're lucky they got Scott Speedman for the part or Matthew would have been a complete failure.

The foursome was at Joe and Love's house. But also, I think Matthew had access to like every camera in Madre Linda, didn't he? He could have spied on Cary and Sherry if he wanted to but he didn't suspect them.

Yeah, I agree with this.  Also, I didn't understand his vitriol against Joe when he found him tied up.  Wouldn't that have maybe made him think that Joe was a victim and had no idea what Love had done until then?  I would've thought he would have saved Joe.  I thought that, when I saw Scott Speedman in the role, he would be a bigger part of the season.  I was a little disappointed at how little he was featured. 

On 10/19/2021 at 12:20 AM, DrSpaceman73 said:

Did not recognize Mackenzie Aston at all.  

I recognized him immediately.  I even went to IMDB to verify it was him, but oddly he isn't listed.  I also didn't see him listed in the opening credits.  

[peachmangosteen]

5 hours ago, Whimsy said:

I recognized him immediately.  I even went to IMDB to verify it was him, but oddly he isn't listed.  I also didn't see him listed in the opening credits.  

He's in the opening credits. I saw his name and kept looking for him and I was like where the fuck is he and then it dawned on me he was Gil.

[Ms Blue Jay]

It's so funny how so many people watch this show and hate Joe, which is what the entire show is all about.

Personally, this season was a huge improvement over the last season, but I didn't love this last episode.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 10/17/2021 at 11:11 PM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I didn't like Love as much as everyone else though. She's basically a female Joe but not quite as funny. I don't buy any of her justifications. I don't buy Joe's either to be fair, but I really don't think she she's any better just because she's impulsive. Her kills are just as self-serving as Joe's are.  I actually liked Beck much better. I know everyone thought she was basic but at least she liked to read and she had a normal reaction to Joe: disgust and revulsion.

I don't like her, nor the actor, and I didn't like Beck, nor the actor, though I get the appeal of Beck much easier than I do Love.

I did like Marianne though, and I loved Natalie.  Sad she didn't last long.  Sherry ended up being awesome.

[Ms Blue Jay]

22 hours ago, Samsnee said:

I enjoyed this season more than S2. Forty was too annoying for me and it felt too much like S1 until the final twist.

I hated almost every side character in S2, but I did enjoy Forty.

[Ms Blue Jay]

On 10/18/2021 at 10:09 AM, RealReality said:

Because he was presented in a far more sympathetic light than Love, IMO.  And mostly because nearly every death or "bad act" could be tied to her impulsivity.or "craziness."  Joe had held back with Natalie and was trying to do the right thing, but Love went crazy and then they had a body on their hands....her fault.  

For this season, I totally, totally, totally agree with you.  Love was killing or attempting to kill people left and right.  What did Joe do this season?  He killed Ryan for his own "noble" reasons.  All the rest of the shit was Love's impulsive bullshit.  Though, Joe did finally go after Love in the end, obviously.

Sherry and her husband trapped in the basement of the bakery, right?  Not Joe and Love's house?

Edited October 20, 2021 by Ms Blue Jay