S07.E04: The Circumcision

[chitowngirl]

Nick has a chance to get out of jail, but Grace likes things the way they are. An old acquaintance helps Frankie with the money laundering.

[LuvMyShows]

It was nice to see the gang, even if it was only a teaser until 2022!  

[gesundheit]

23 hours ago, LuvMyShows said:

It was nice to see the gang, even if it was only a teaser until 2022!  

I didn't realize until that final moment that we have to wait till 2022! Harsh!

[Harvey]

I like that they made Allison less sickly. She is a good support for Bud.

[Good Queen Jane]

So how come Bud was never circumcised before, especially in light of all the Jewish holidays his family celebrated? And where is his baby?

[Megan]

On 8/16/2021 at 10:18 AM, Good Queen Jane said:

So how come Bud was never circumcised before, especially in light of all the Jewish holidays his family celebrated? And where is his baby?

How old was he when he was adopted? Maybe he was already past whenever the usual age is.

[iMonrey]

Quote

So how come Bud was never circumcised before, especially in light of all the Jewish holidays his family celebrated? 

Probably because his parents were just as keen to honor his African heritage as Sol's Jewish heritage. Which is why he's named Nwabudike. (I'm not clear on whether Frankie is Jewish or not.) Also, as pointed out above, we don't know how old he was when they adopted him.

[Bastet]

Grace being so utterly tickled by Nick being in jail was cracking me up, and, sure this house arrest thing when they just got rid of the ex-husbands could be funny, but this is yet another instance where Nick ignores what she wants.  He has his good moments, sometimes even a whole season of them, but he ultimately revers to who he was when we met him - someone who keeps coming around when she says to go away.

She told him she wants to live with Frankie, not him; this whole cohabitational marriage thing doesn't work for her and she was much happier when they were dating.  He agrees to compromise.  But then what does he do?  Negotiate himself house arrest at her house - and show up announcing it like it's great he'll be there 24/7.

But I'm still reasonably hopeful things are going to work out as they should in the end.  Part of me can't wait until next year, and the other is so bummed it's almost over.

[sistermagpie]

2 minutes ago, Bastet said:

She told him she wants to live with Frankie, not him; this whole cohabitational marriage thing doesn't work for her and she was much happier when they were dating.  He agrees to compromise.  But then what does he do?  Negotiate himself house arrest at her house - and show up announcing it like it's great he'll be there 24/7.

 

Yeah, that was so horrifying I had to comfort myself by thinking that surely in real life the wife and Frankie would have to agree to this?

[Roccos Brother]

Whoever came up with this adult circumcision storyline should be fired. It would have to be a life-or-death situation for me to voluntarily go through that as an adult, just due to the pain alone. Bud seems all too willing to chop off a hugely significant part of his genitalia that he's had (and I assume, enjoyed having) his entire life. Also, eczema isn't some viral infection, it's a lifelong auto-immune condition that typically flares up seasonally (I'm speaking from experience). Cutting off pieces of your body wouldn't make it go away. How did this ever get greenlit?

Otherwise, a pretty good season so far. But once again, the writing quality between the storylines for the children and the main cast is miles apart.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Roccos Brother

[iMonrey]

When did Robert and Sol move back into their own house? Did I miss something or did the show cut something?

[Roccos Brother]

21 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

When did Robert and Sol move back into their own house? Did I miss something or did the show cut something?

I think they ran from the beach house to avoid Grace's wrath after destroying her boat model by accident, which seems a bit contrived.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Roccos Brother

[Yeah No]

14 hours ago, Roccos Brother said:

I think they ran from the beach house to avoid Grace's wrath after destroying her boat model by accident, which seems a bit contrived.

Weirdly that was never followed up on either, like showing Grace's wrath upon finding out the boat was destroyed.  Unless I missed it, which I don't think I did.

[iMonrey]

I missed them destroying the boat!

[sistermagpie]

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Weirdly that was never followed up on either, like showing Grace's wrath upon finding out the boat was destroyed.  Unless I missed it, which I don't think I did.

I think the idea was just supposed to be that the broken ship explained why they were back at their own house. That was the follow-up. We didn't see her discover it.

[possibilities]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I missed them destroying the boat!

They were trying to watch TV and the ship model was in the way. Sol decided to move it, tripped, fell, and the model got crushed. 

Do we know for sure whether his name is Sol, or is it Saul? I always assumed the latter. 

[Bastet]

21 minutes ago, possibilities said:

They were trying to watch TV and the ship model was in the way. Sol decided to move it, tripped, fell, and the model got crushed. 

It was actually Robert who wound up breaking it.  Sol set it on the coffee table, Robert said he was "all feet" and would wind up kicking it off, so Robert carried it off towards the dining room table and tripped.

22 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Do we know for sure whether his name is Sol, or is it Saul? I always assumed the latter. 

It's Sol.

[SoMuchTV]

24 minutes ago, possibilities said:

Do we know for sure whether his name is Sol, or is it Saul? I always assumed the latter. 

IMDB and the cc's have him as Sol.  Short for Solomon, I guess?

[AllyB]

On 8/18/2021 at 9:45 PM, Roccos Brother said:

Whoever came up with this adult circumcision storyline should be fired. It would have to be a life-or-death situation for me to voluntarily go through that as an adult, just due to the pain alone.

I do know more than a few men who had adult medical circumcision due to severe pain which can be caused by a number of condition, like severe balanoposthitis and paraphimosis. Usually in their adult teens/early 20s rather than at Bud's age but it is sometimes the lesser of two evils. In the past it was more normal for circumcision to be recommended very quickly/immediately with those conditions. Nowadays, there are numerous, topical and medication treatments with high success rates that are attempted first. But occasionally, medical circumcision is still needed. Eczema can cause balanoposthitis, so it's not a completely off the wall diagnosis. It's just that circumcision shouldn't be the immediate solution. Though I do have the impression that circumcision is the norm in the US? So maybe doctors are less likely to think of the foreskin as something that should be kept intact apart from as a last resort?

[Bastet]

23 minutes ago, AllyB said:

Though I do have the impression that circumcision is the norm in the US?

Very much, although the rate is declining.

I went looking for specific numbers, but they're hard to come by because circumcisions performed in hospitals are readily tracked, but not those performed elsewhere.  A Washington Post article six years ago cited the WHO, which estimated that the overall male circumcision rate in the U.S. is somewhere between 76 and 92 percent.

[MissLucas]

I guess the 'miracle' Nicks lawyer performed is somehow connected to Grace's age? She sure perked up when she heard that Grace is 82. I'm sure Grace will be thrilled when that comes to light. And of course that whole scenario is unrealistic. It's true that Nick wasn't really listening to what Grace wanted - but after the arraignment she wasn't exactly forthcoming with her wishes either. She seemed to go along with whatever he said whilst trying to manipulate the situation to her liking.

Bud's plot was so predictable, the moment he got into a fight with that lady I started to wonder when we would see her again. But I loved Coyote's plot - that was very sweet. I'm glad we got no Brianna this episode, she's become insufferable. And I wonder who robbed Sol and Robert. 

 

[Roccos Brother]

3 hours ago, AllyB said:

Though I do have the impression that circumcision is the norm in the US? So maybe doctors are less likely to think of the foreskin as something that should be kept intact apart from as a last resort?

Yes, but there's a huge difference between circumcision at birth (decided by your parents) versus circumcision in your thirties. The idea that an adult man would be so willing to give  up a part of his genitalia that he's had his entire life is totally unrealistic, and is especially out of character for someone as neurotic as Bud. And any doctor who recommends surgery as the first option is a VERY VERY bad doctor to say the least. And to do so based on a photograph, without even a consultation or some examination is completely unethical. I hate that this show is treating such a serious (and in many ways, controversial) procedure like it's the equivalent of removing a wisdom tooth.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Roccos Brother

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, Roccos Brother said:

Yes, but there's a huge difference between circumcision at birth (decided by your parents) versus circumcision in your thirties. The idea that an adult man would be so willing to give  up a part of his genitalia that he's had his entire life is totally unrealistic, and is especially out of character for someone as neurotic as Bud. And any doctor who recommends surgery as the first option is a VERY VERY bad doctor to say the least. And to do so based on a photograph, without even a consultation or some examination is completely unethical. I hate that this show is treating such a serious (and in many ways, controversial) procedure like it's the equivalent of removing a wisdom tooth.

I wouldn't make those assumptions about Bud, nor judge his desire to get circumcised.  If he's in that much pain and medical science says that's the best way or only way to make it stop, I can see him deciding to do it.  And many men do make that decision so it isn't what I would call unrealistic to show that.  There are several painful medical conditions that make getting circumcised the best option according to several well respected medical sites, so I won't judge any doctor as "bad" for recommending one under those circumstances.  Nor would I judge anyone for making what is essentially a personal decision, any more than I would judge anyone for engaging in earlobe stretching or plastic surgery or any other form of body alteration.  It's their body.  I do agree that a doctor making a medical recommendation based purely on a photograph isn't right, though.

[possibilities]

Fwiw, they did say he'd have to come into the office to confirm the diagnosis.

[Roccos Brother]

12 hours ago, Yeah No said:

I wouldn't make those assumptions about Bud, nor judge his desire to get circumcised.  If he's in that much pain and medical science says that's the best way or only way to make it stop, I can see him deciding to do it.  And many men do make that decision so it isn't what I would call unrealistic to show that.  There are several painful medical conditions that make getting circumcised the best option according to several well respected medical sites, so I won't judge any doctor as "bad" for recommending one under those circumstances.  Nor would I judge anyone for making what is essentially a personal decision, any more than I would judge anyone for engaging in earlobe stretching or plastic surgery or any other form of body alteration.  It's their body.  I do agree that a doctor making a medical recommendation based purely on a photograph isn't right, though.

Maybe I'm misreading, but the tone in your reply comes off defensive, which I don't understand. The only thing being "judged" here is the writing, these are merely observations about a work of fiction and characters that aren't real people, and therefor rules of practicality, logic, and consistency does not have to apply to them. And yes, you can rationalize anything if you apply general hypotheticals, but none of those apply to what is being portrayed on screen. Again, I repeat, eczema is an auto-immune TEMPORARY, but reoccurring lifelong condition. You treat it with topical ointments, antihistamines, etc. The root cause is your own immune system, not something that is external. Furthermore, surgery ALWAYS carries risks and should never be the first step, if there are other options available. Point blank.

Edited August 20, 2021 by Roccos Brother

[twoods]

I’ve had plenty of teenage guys or men in their early 20’s opt for a circumcision because of pain or recurrent infections- this is one of the reasons a urologist will do a circumcision in that age group and an indication for referral, so the storyline seemed realistic to me.

Why only four episodes? I want more!

Edited August 20, 2021 by twoods

[iMonrey]

Quote

Why only four episodes? I want more!

I'm assuming these are the episodes they shot before the pandemic shut them down. According to what I read production did not resume until a couple months ago. 

[Jordan Baker]

I wonder whether the song "All of Me" was used (in part, anyway) as a tribute to the Lily Tomlin movie of the same name.

[binky101]

Watching this ep now, and all I can think is, awww, Ed Asner. He did so much great acting.

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, binky101 said:

Watching this ep now, and all I can think is, awww, Ed Asner. He did so much great acting.

And great activism.

It somehow did not dawn on me in his first episode, but did in this one, that his appearance on the show constituted a reunion - he and Lily Tomlin played a couple in the great "The Ghosts Who Stole Christmas" episode of The X-Files.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Frankie was wearing shoes around her neck. Why?

All Nick needed to do was plead guilty and pay the fine, then throw a lot of cash at a presidential candidate. If his guy gets elected then he can request a pardon. Might help if he knows where some of the guy's bodies are buried.

How much could a Sacagawea coin be worth? Surely not $30k. Something about that doesn't make sense.

This must've been one of Ed Asner's last roles. I didn't realize how relatively frail he'd gotten.

[AuntieMame]

I agree that Grace is being squirrelly with Nick and that Nick is pushy. But if she didn’t want to live with him she shouldn’t have married him. But it really is difficult to identify much less communicate your genuine desires in very close emotional relationships. 
 

On 8/18/2021 at 2:45 PM, Roccos Brother said:

Whoever came up with this adult circumcision storyline should be fired. It would have to be a life-or-death situation for me to voluntarily go through that as an adult, just due to the pain alone. Bud seems all too willing to chop off a hugely significant part of his genitalia that he's had (and I assume, enjoyed having) his entire life. Also, eczema isn't some viral infection, it's a lifelong auto-immune condition that typically flares up seasonally (I'm speaking from experience). Cutting off pieces of your body wouldn't make it go away. How did this ever get greenlit?

Otherwise, a pretty good season so far. But once again, the writing quality between the storylines for the children and the main cast is miles apart.

Circumcision is traditionally performed at eight days of age in the Jewish tradition. However, one of the requirements for male converts to Judaism is circumcision. So I don’t see any reason why a bris couldn’t have been performed at whatever Bud’s age was when he was adopted. I completely agree that except for stark medical necessity that most men wouldn’t have done this. Not to get controversial but men do lose a lot with this procedure. 
Which brings me to the whole way both Bud and Coyotes adoption stories have been handled. First, they haven’t made a lick of sense (is Bud really African from Africa? Because there wasn’t a lot of adoption out of Africa at the time they were born. And why saddle him with that name if he isn’t?) 

Your point is well taken @Roccos Brother. I think the writers take their assumptions and prejudices and things they thought they learned watching Lifetime movies and consider it research. Especially when it comes to Bud and Coyotes storylines. Getting circed to cure eczema makes just as much (non)sense as anything else they’ve written for the guys. 
Oh, it’s nice to see Grace and Frankie but I felt cheated by the short season, even while feeling that it’s time to bring the story to a close. Somehow these four episodes didn’t work for me. The characters felt like caricatures and the storylines felt shopworn. 

[Bastet]

6 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

But if she didn’t want to live with him she shouldn’t have married him.

She didn't know she didn't want to live with him until she lived with him.

She married him as a reaction, which was a really bad idea, and without having seen if they could live together, which was also unwise, but I like that she wants to find a way that works rather than jumping to divorce. 

Between Grace and Nick being married but not cohabitating and Brianna and Barry being permanently engaged, I like that this series shows the traditional way isn't good for some people - especially some women - and there's no lack of commitment in wanting to do it differently. 

[AuntieMame]

Those are really good points @Bastet. I rushed to judgment a little. Yeah, marrying in crisis is a horror show and the regrets always seem to come at leisure but you’re right that attempting to find a way for things to work is admirable. Especially if we really want marriage to look functionally different. 

[FierceCritter]

On 9/19/2021 at 9:13 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Frankie was wearing shoes around her neck. Why?

How much could a Sacagawea coin be worth? Surely not $30k. Something about that doesn't make sense.

The shoes bugged me too. I decided it was just a quirky fashion choice.

I had to google the Sacagawea coin thing. The entire episode it bugged me (lotsa bugs this episode) why a coin would be in a cereal box.
https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/cheerios-dollar-profile-768545

[Desperado]

Late to the new episodes. My favourite scenes are always the friendship interactions between Frankie and Grace. I found myself skipping many more scenes than in other seasons. I hope the break allowed for a tightening up of the content.

It was also quite sad to see Ed Asner so fragile. I know actors want to act until the end, but in this case, it took me completely away from the scene. RIP.