S01.E06: The Grand Victorian

[helenamonster]

Quote

Kevin celebrates with two birthday dinners as Allison scrambles; Patty and Tammy go on a date.

AMC+ airdate: 7/11/21

AMC cable airdate: 7/18/21

[Harvey]

Oh wow. That last scene where Allison finally took charge and yelled at the murderer guy was amazing. I never saw Annie Murphy act like that, since her roles up to now were cutesy characters, but she totally sold this vicious head bitch in charge vibe and I loved every second of it. Another great episode.

[Spartan Girl]

Oh stop playing the victim, Sam. You have free will and made a conscious choice to cheat on Jenn. Don’t whine about how you have more to lose than Allison.

Even when Kevin acts nice, he’s still an asshole. Who cares if the chair was a different color, it still works the same. He’d better enjoy it because it might be the last birthday present he’ll ever get.

[helenamonster]

Damn, Allison. I cringed each time she tried to confront Nick, knowing that pissing him off would only make things worse. But I think at the end he was convinced to do things her way. She's tired of not being in control, and for the most important decision of her life, she's gonna call the shots.

Not sure how professional it is for Tammy to be dating somebody she had previously questioned as part of an investigation, but I suppose pickings are slim in a small town, especially for a gay woman. I'm still unclear on exactly what Patty was feeling this episode, but maybe that was the point. Had she dated women before? If not, did she know she liked women? It definitely sheds a new light on her incompatibility with Kurt, though it's possible she's bi. Either way, it seems like she has some stuff to work through. I laughed out loud when she said the massage chair was "getting fresh."

Very bizarre to see Sam and Jenn in Kevin's world. Some great subtle acting from Annie Murphy when you could tell she was hoping Kevin would just choke and it would all be over. But Sam absolutely needs to cool his jets. Both of them are cheating on their spouses, neither of them has the moral high ground here. If he doesn't want to have an affair with Allison, he can simply say so. She's right, she hasn't forced him to do anything, and she definitely didn't force him to hire her. I guess he could fire her, but that's a lawsuit waiting to happen (not that I can see Allison pursuing that route, at least not until after Kevin's dead). He also seemed to imply that he and Allison not being together was her choice, but he was the one who was in a relationship way back when. Unless he was prepared to leave Jenn and that's when Allison met Kevin? There is a lot to fill in there.

But did he know she was married? I can't remember if they talked about it in a previous episode, and he seemed surprised when she said she was there for her husband's birthday. Again, whether or not she's married doesn't matter as far as his own moral culpability goes, but maybe that changed things for him. He felt better about sleeping with her when he didn't know he was stepping onto another man's turf, so to speak. An outdated mindset for sure, and not one he'd likely be proud of, but more people have this hangup than they'd like to admit.

Allison's plot was sort of sitcom-y itself, with more and more people showing up to complicate things. Of course, as usual, her stakes were much higher than Kevin's.

Also the presence of the retired athletes is definitely something I could see the "real" version of this sitcom doing, as that's probably the highest level of special guest star they'd be able to swing.

[chocolatine]

I was hoping that the reason Nick was at the restaurant was to poison Kevin and make it look like a heart attack from eating such a large and fatty meal. But of course the show won't kill off Kevin that quickly.

Sam is just getting less and less attractive each episode. And Jenn is a sneaky bitch. Last episode she made a dig about Allison's under-eye-bags, and this episode she threw shade at Allison dining alone.

5 hours ago, helenamonster said:

Not sure how professional it is for Tammy to be dating somebody she had previously questioned as part of an investigation, but I suppose pickings are slim in a small town, especially for a gay woman.

It was definitely unprofessional and unethical to lure Patty on a date under false pretenses. I don't care how slim the pickings are. If a male officer did that to a woman there would be no doubt about how wrong that is.

[helenamonster]

1 hour ago, chocolatine said:

It was definitely unprofessional and unethical to lure Patty on a date under false pretenses. I don't care how slim the pickings are. If a male officer did that to a woman there would be no doubt about how wrong that is.

You're right, and the more I think about it, the more I think the "date" was under false pretenses to get Patty to spill more info about the drug ring and/or confess. I think there was an attempt to get her drunk (Patty wanted to drink beer and Tammy ordered her a vodka soda, likely to get her drunker faster especially as she's not used to drinking liquor) and she still seemed in interrogation mode, not letting the thing with Allison showing up go. I waved it off as that just being her way, but something definitely stinks. Also weird that she invited her to what appeared to be a retirement party for another cop as a first date? I couldn't tell exactly what it was they were at but it was some kind of police event. Why not take her to dinner or a movie?

What's a shame is that for Patty, this was clearly a big step in her understanding of herself. She's been going through changes just as monumental as Allison's. She was so uncertain of her feelings that she didn't even tell Allison she was going on a date (even if she would have left out that it was with Tammy). I have a feeling this whole thing is gonna end with her being heartbroken and completely unsure of who she is. If Tammy is playing her, she's doing more damage than she realizes, I think.

[Spartan Girl]

9 hours ago, helenamonster said:

But did he know she was married? I can't remember if they talked about it in a previous episode, and he seemed surprised when she said she was there for her husband's birthday.

She mentioned Kevin in front of him when she freaked about quitting her job at the liquor store — she said she couldn’t rely on him for money. So yeah, he knew she was married, and more importantly, HE IS STILL MARRIED. He can STFU and take several seats, he has no moral high ground.

[arc]

How does an understaffed diner both make enough money to manage to pay Allison and yet have enough down time for two people to have a secret sex break? I know blackmail is illegal, but if I'm the overworked cook or dishwasher I'm definitely blackmailing Sam.

The contrivances pile up on the dramedy side this time. Nick works at the Grand Victorian? And Sam and Jenn decided to eat there the same night as Kevin's birthday dinner? AND it's the same hotel-restaurant-bar where Tammy and Patty are???????

I genuinely enjoyed Nick in sitcom land stabbing Kevin's steak. It's also really well done that the geography of the scene is consistent between the two worlds -- in the sitcom world Sam and Jenn are seated pretty much where it looked like from the dramedy side.

It looked like Tammy never even once considered Patty wasn't also at least a little into her.

I had wondered earlier why Nick was so low on the drug dealer chain that he needed his grandmother for the hookup. He might not have a whole lot of ambition if he's just doing the drug dealing on the side vs being a busboy.

[AllyB]

22 hours ago, helenamonster said:

Also weird that she invited her to what appeared to be a retirement party for another cop as a first date? I couldn't tell exactly what it was they were at but it was some kind of police event. Why not take her to dinner or a movie?

I know, at the end when Tammy was saying to her, 'I asked you out, It took you to this fun thing....' I was just thinking, in what world is someone else's work party a fun thing? Never mind as a first date. Tammy strikes me as weirdly possessive, the way she caught Patty and pulled up close to her when the other cops came to say hi, was disturbing.

[helenamonster]

19 hours ago, arc said:

I genuinely enjoyed Nick in sitcom land stabbing Kevin's steak. It's also really well done that the geography of the scene is consistent between the two worlds -- in the sitcom world Sam and Jenn are seated pretty much where it looked like from the dramedy side.

The transitions between the sitcom and drama worlds are a real triumph of set design, lighting, and costuming. To design the sets in a way that can accommodate the absence of a fourth wall we accept in multicam while also being able to adapt into a full room can't be easy. The two types are also lit completely differently, which must make picking out wardrobe and props/furniture difficult as there are certain things that would show up fine in the more muted, realistic style but totally clash under the sitcom style lights. Hopefully the Emmys recognize this in the technical categories next year.

[arc]

They didn’t just move in a fourth wall, they also moved out a wall (probably). The back wall of the restaurant in sitcom view is right where the single-cam camera was placed when the action moved over to Sam and Jenn’s table.

one other thing about the costuming is that for the more realistic single-cam side, Allison has some staple items like her two coats. Kevin’s clothes don’t repeat because he has an unlimited sitcom budget for clothing. And as you say, the costume choices for Allison were made to look believably sitcom-y in the sitcom lights (flat) and textured and telling the story of Allison (damaged and worn down) in the single cam lighting: https://www.salon.com/2021/07/04/kevin-can-f-himself-costuming-carol-cutshall/

[AllyB]

This episode has really left me wondering WTF Neil's deal is. His need for constant validation from Kevin was beyond next level in this episode. I really, really want to see him outside the sitcom setting. He's actually starting to disturb me more than Kevin.

[lavenderblue]

On 7/11/2021 at 4:48 PM, chocolatine said:

Sam is just getting less and less attractive each episode. And Jenn is a sneaky bitch. Last episode she made a dig about Allison's under-eye-bags, and this episode she threw shade at Allison dining alone.

Also, that "Addison" line just to dig in how she's too insignificant to get her name right. Sam and Allison suck for cheating, but Jenn also kind of just sucks in her own right so any sympathy I have is purely abstract ethics.

I thought it was an interesting little move that they coded Jenn as an enemy character in the sitcom realm with her New York sports fandoms. 

[Quilt Fairy]

On 7/12/2021 at 11:38 PM, arc said:

They didn’t just move in a fourth wall, they also moved out a wall (probably). The back wall of the restaurant in sitcom view is right where the single-cam camera was placed when the action moved over to Sam and Jenn’s table.

one other thing about the costuming is that for the more realistic single-cam side, Allison has some staple items like her two coats. Kevin’s clothes don’t repeat because he has an unlimited sitcom budget for clothing. And as you say, the costume choices for Allison were made to look believably sitcom-y in the sitcom lights (flat) and textured and telling the story of Allison (damaged and worn down) in the single cam lighting: https://www.salon.com/2021/07/04/kevin-can-f-himself-costuming-carol-cutshall/

Really good article.  One line that stood out:

Quote

Almost nothing in the world of "Kevin Can F**k Himself" is accidental. Cutshall told Salon that each episode is brimming with Easter eggs for audiences....

 

[qtpye]

On 7/14/2021 at 5:30 AM, AllyB said:

This episode has really left me wondering WTF Neil's deal is. His need for constant validation from Kevin was beyond next level in this episode. I really, really want to see him outside the sitcom setting. He's actually starting to disturb me more than Kevin.

 

On 7/13/2021 at 12:38 AM, arc said:

They didn’t just move in a fourth wall, they also moved out a wall (probably). The back wall of the restaurant in sitcom view is right where the single-cam camera was placed when the action moved over to Sam and Jenn’s table.

one other thing about the costuming is that for the more realistic single-cam side, Allison has some staple items like her two coats. Kevin’s clothes don’t repeat because he has an unlimited sitcom budget for clothing. And as you say, the costume choices for Allison were made to look believably sitcom-y in the sitcom lights (flat) and textured and telling the story of Allison (damaged and worn down) in the single cam lighting: https://www.salon.com/2021/07/04/kevin-can-f-himself-costuming-carol-cutshall/

That article was truly fascinating and you can see the thought and effort being put into this show I particularly liked this:

Quote

 

If you look even more closely at Allison, Cutshall says, you can see all the reminders of how traditional sitcoms cater to the male gaze through her fitted and feminine clothing, as well as the deep sexism and total control in her marriage to Kevin.

"We see constantly how she's the only one under financial restriction, and also, that she was the only one under a physical restriction," she said. "In contrast, Kevin's basically dressed the way any toddler would dress, in big t-shirts and shorts you can pull up and pull down, no buttons, no collar. She has a lot of restrictions of what she can and can't do."

 

 

On 7/11/2021 at 9:39 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Oh stop playing the victim, Sam. You have free will and made a conscious choice to cheat on Jenn. Don’t whine about how you have more to lose than Allison.

Even when Kevin acts nice, he’s still an asshole. Who cares if the chair was a different color, it still works the same. He’d better enjoy it because it might be the last birthday present he’ll ever get.

 

On 7/11/2021 at 9:39 PM, Spartan Girl said:

She mentioned Kevin in front of him when she freaked about quitting her job at the liquor store — she said she couldn’t rely on him for money. So yeah, he knew she was married, and more importantly, HE IS STILL MARRIED. He can STFU and take several seats, he has no moral high ground.

I am realizing that Sam is the opposite of Kevin but not in a good way. Where Kevin is ridiculously controlling Sam is incredibly passive. In his mind Allison "started this" and it's all on her, which is ridiculous.  I imagine that Jen makes all the major decisions in their marriage and he resents her for it but never says anything.

On 7/14/2021 at 5:30 AM, AllyB said:

This episode has really left me wondering WTF Neil's deal is. His need for constant validation from Kevin was beyond next level in this episode. I really, really want to see him outside the sitcom setting. He's actually starting to disturb me more than Kevin.

In these types of sitcoms, the husband always has male friends that he spends more time with and cares about much more than he does his wife. It was funny that Allison realizes she is not the most important person in Kevin's life but Neil can still be fooled, even though that is just written off as him being stupid.

It is obvious that Kevin is the most important person in Kevin's life. The men on these sitcoms are usually horrible people so it also hints at how these horrible guys always seem to have a ton of friends or friend who seem to live or die for them.

The wife is just written off as an attractive woman who is a wet blanket and kills all the fun. The main guy is given credit for attracting and having sexual relations with the usually much better-looking wife but otherwise, he barely tolerates her unless she is doing something for him.

[seacliffsal]

I found it interesting that we did not see the photo of Kevin that Allison showed the killer (former Penguin from Gotham) which made me wonder if he looks different in the real world from his sitcom self.  I also find that I am not liking Allison as much as in the earlier episodes so I wonder if she is slowly revealing who she might really be.  Is there some truth in Sam's statement that she is always the one in control?  I do know real life people who manipulate (or at least try to manipulate) others through their 'pitiful me' stories and crises so I could see Allison slowly demonstrating this side of her more and more (if it's indeed a part of her).

In terms of Jenn calling Allison "Addison" I think it could also be due to the fact that Jenn realizes is was always Allison and not herself that Sam wanted, so she is trying to assert herself above Allison.

I find it fascinating that this show could go in so many different directions.

[theredhead77]

1 hour ago, seacliffsal said:

I also find that I am not liking Allison as much as in the earlier episodes so I wonder if she is slowly revealing who she might really be.

Same. I think my predisposition to love Annie Murphy based on prior work clouded my view of Allison. Allison is revealing herself to be someone who isn't easily likeable. 

I'm not an east coast sports fan but I am a hockey fan and I hate Sean Avery SO!MUCH!. I was seriously annoyed with the show for making me want to root for him to beat Kevin at the steak eating contest.

[Ms Lark]

2 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

I found it interesting that we did not see the photo of Kevin that Allison showed the killer (former Penguin from Gotham) which made me wonder if he looks different in the real world from his sitcom self.

I've been wondering this myself. That scene sort of cinched it. We only have 2 more episodes to go, so I'm hoping we get the answer to that. It will be interesting to see how they wrap this up, hopefully not on a cliffhanger. I'm not sure it could really run for a second season. What? Allison and Patty continue to try and kill off Kevin for another 8 episodes?

[PrincessPurrsALot]

I tend to take Sam's assessments of Alison with a grain of salt.  They are both cheating on their spouses.  He was cheating on his then girlfriend back in the day too.  He has the ability to say no to any advances.  Instead he offered Alison a job at the cafe.  Earlier he stated that she cut people out of her life.  From what we've seen, much of that happened due to Kevin slowly wearing her down, making her the un-fun one that people dislike, which takes a major toll on trying to maintain and grow relationships.  Sam is painting himself the victim of the evil, manipulative seductress without owning his role in the affair. 

I am not giving Alison a pass on cheating on her husband.  She is both pursuing the relationship and making it easy to continue based on choosing to work with Sam. I am just not willing to give Sam's voice more power than hers in assessing anything to do with her. 

One of the other TV tropes is men who barely know a woman, whether that is based on just meeting them or, in this case, knowing them a long time ago and now being back in their life, somehow having better insight into the woman than she herself does.  We don't typically see that between men.  This gives more power to the voice and opinions of men over women.

[thuganomics85]

Special guest stars; especially sport ones; is definitely a popular thing in sitcoms, so it was fun seeing this show's spin on it, even if I'm admittedly not too familiar with Sean Avery and hockey in general.  The whole steak eating contest; along with Kevin going back and forth between his dinner with Allison and game time with Neil and Pete; was another thing that really felt like it was lifted straight from a sitcom, so even arguments can be made for not being real funny, they certainly are staying true to form here, I think.

Even if Sam had a point in there somewhere that Allison has more control than she thinks, he pretty much lost me with his blame game and trying to dump everything on her.  He is a willing participate in this affair and is more than capable of ending things if he wanted to.  If anything, he is the one who made things even more icky because he took it from a "simple" affair to even hiring her and basically making her his subordinate at work, which opens a whole other can of worms.  He's basically the opposite of Kevin, but somehow just as bad in his own way.  I do suspect some of it is going to end up being thanks in part to his marriage with Jenn, who I do think is showing more and more signs that she really isn't a nice person either.

So, Tammy/the cop actually wanted to take Patty on a date instead of more questioning.  Or supposedly, since it wouldn't surprise me if maybe she is still suspicious and trying to find another way to get to her.  Either way, I don't see this ending well for Patty, which is sad since she seems to be barely hanging in there.

Allison finally "taking charge" with Nick was great and brilliantly acted by Annie Murphy.

Only two episodes left, so I imagine some major shit will be going down soon!

[qtpye]

5 hours ago, Ms Lark said:

I've been wondering this myself. That scene sort of cinched it. We only have 2 more episodes to go, so I'm hoping we get the answer to that. It will be interesting to see how they wrap this up, hopefully not on a cliffhanger. I'm not sure it could really run for a second season. What? Allison and Patty continue to try and kill off Kevin for another 8 episodes?

I was with you at first. I love the show but thought of this as a 1 season concept. However, I think this could go 2 seasons if the writing is tight and they handle it correctly.

However, we can not have more than 2 seasons of Kevin not dying. It will start to get repetitive and stupid.

6 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

Same. I think my predisposition to love Annie Murphy based on prior work clouded my view of Allison. Allison is revealing herself to be someone who isn't easily likeable. 

I'm not an east coast sports fan but I am a hockey fan and I hate Sean Avery SO!MUCH!. I was seriously annoyed with the show for making me want to root for him to beat Kevin at the steak eating contest.

I too love the actress. However, they have made brilliant compelling shows around horrible men like Tony Soprano and Walter White.

I realized that I do not have to like Allison in order to enjoy this show. She is a woman who is very flawed but I am still interested in her story.

[theredhead77]

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

I too love the actress. However, they have made brilliant compelling shows around horrible men like Tony Soprano and Walter White.

I realized that I do not have to like Allison in order to enjoy this show. She is a woman who is very flawed but I am still interested in her story.

I didn't mean to imply I wasn't enjoying the show. I think my initial view of Allison was clouded by my love for the actress.

 

3 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Special guest stars; especially sport ones; is definitely a popular thing in sitcoms, so it was fun seeing this show's spin on it, even if I'm admittedly not too familiar with Sean Avery and hockey in general.

He's a trash human on and off the ice. The more I think about it the more I'm annoyed with the show for giving him a platform. There are more divisive, less garbage, athletes they could have cast in this role.

2 hours ago, qtpye said:

I love the show but thought of this as a 1 season concept. However, I think this could go 2 seasons if the writing is tight and they handle it correctly.

However, we can not have more than 2 seasons of Kevin not dying. It will start to get repetitive and stupid.

This show is awesome and I hope it moves on to a season 2. Maybe Kevin doesn't die. Maybe she gets her shit together and leaves him, instead.

[Quilt Fairy]

I realize this season has an overall story arc of Allison wanting to kill Kevin, but is that necessary if there are future seasons?  I find the back and forth of in-front to behind-the-curtain fascinating even if there isn't an ultimate goal of Kevin dying. 

[qtpye]

46 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

I didn't mean to imply I wasn't enjoying the show. I think my initial view of Allison was clouded by my love for the actress.

 

He's a trash human on and off the ice. The more I think about it the more I'm annoyed with the show for giving him a platform. There are more divisive, less garbage, athletes they could have cast in this role.

This show is awesome and I hope it moves on to a season 2. Maybe Kevin doesn't die. Maybe she gets her shit together and leaves him, instead.

I didn't mean to imply that is what you were saying.

I watch a show called Good Girls and the writing became trash once they lost the "good moms down on their luck angle". I feel like men can be bad but women, to some degree, have to remain "sympathetic" or writers do not know what to do with them...so I am a little sensitive about female-centric shows.

This is why a lot of female characters become "Molly Sues" because the writers keep telling us that they are awesome instead of showing us.

Also in keeping with the theme of this show...Don Draper, Tony Soprano, and Walter White are terrible people but the audience always seemed to hate their wives more than the guys.

 

[Spartan Girl]

5 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Even if Sam had a point in there somewhere that Allison has more control than she thinks, he pretty much lost me with his blame game and trying to dump everything on her.  He is a willing participate in this affair and is more than capable of ending things if he wanted to.  If anything, he is the one who made things even more icky because he took it from a "simple" affair to even hiring her and basically making her his subordinate at work, which opens a whole other can of worms.  He's basically the opposite of Kevin, but somehow just as bad in his own way.  I do suspect some of it is going to end up being thanks in part to his marriage with Jenn, who I do think is showing more and more signs that she really isn't a nice person either.

I’ve noticed that Sam and Allison tend to play the victims rather than own up to making bad choices. We’ve seen how Allison goes for the easy way out of things because she doesn’t like things to get messy—which Party rightfully called her on. Sam is doing the same thing, blaming Allison on “seducing” him rather than admit he’s not as good a person as he wants to be.

[qtpye]

15 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

I’ve noticed that Sam and Allison tend to play the victims rather than own up to making bad choices. We’ve seen how Allison goes for the easy way out of things because she doesn’t like things to get messy—which Party rightfully called her on. Sam is doing the same thing, blaming Allison on “seducing” him rather than admit he’s not as good a person as he wants to be.

Yes, it makes you wonder if Jen is the classy lady version of Kevin.

Even if she is that bad...Sam and Allison are still responsible for their own choices.

Like really Allison...Kevin drains your savings account and you can not say no to an expensive massaging chair for his birthday? How about no birthday gifts for anybody until the account is rebuilt (though I doubt the rubber band ball he gave her for her birthday cost anything).

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by qtpye

[Chyromaniac]

I got the impression that Allison was, ultimately, buying the massage chair for herself.  That’s why she got the “wrong” upholstery- it’s the style she wanted, and she expected to be able to keep it after he’s gone.

Somehow this felt like a bit of a letdown after the last few episodes.  I think I get what they were going for- the sitcom cliche of Kevin trying to juggle both birthdays was reflected in Allison and Patty also dealing with multiple, conflicting relationships. But for me it just got to be too much- the drama part felt more madcap than the sitcom.  I also don’t know what to think about Patty and Tammy- she just feels so detached outside of the sitcom that it’s hard to read whether there’s any actual attraction there, or if she’s just going along with it like she was with Mr. TV Tray.

As for the sports guys, I also would have preferred a different rival here- like, I even think the sitcom would find it funnier to have him get bent out of shape over a guy with an inoffensive reputation, rather than a hockey goon.  I absolutely could see Kev having an irrational hatred for, say, Eli Manning.  Otherwise, getting Scalabrine as his spirit animal was inspired.  There’s no doubt that this guy’s favorite basketball player would be a retired ginger benchwarmer.

[arc]

5 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

This show is awesome and I hope it moves on to a season 2. Maybe Kevin doesn't die. Maybe she gets her shit together and leaves him, instead.

I hope to see more, but whether Kevin lives or dies, I doubt the show goes on without maintaining some kind of sitcom/multicam element… and I think that part relies on having Kevin around.

[seacliffsal]

I think Sam's statement about Allison being in control was reflected by the fact that after hiring Nick to kill Kevin she kept trying to take the control of how/when to do it rather than just let him take care of it.  It could be that because she is unable to control Kevin she hates him and sees him in the sitcom perspective.  

I think that if they ever let us see Kevin outside of the sitcom world we'll get a lot of insight about Allison.

[cardigirl]

I enjoyed this episode. The juxtaposition between all of the elements of the show in the two places, and the cast coming together in the restaurants was well done.  

Allison bugs me though. She didn't like being told to shut up by Nick, or by Patti, because Kevin runs roughshod over her and never listens, but in Nick's case, he's taking on a huge risk, so he feels like he has the right to override her, and in Patti's case, she has (maybe) a bit more experience with bad guys like Nick, so she's giving fair warning to Allison to watch out. But Allison gets frustrated, angry, because she thinks they are taking her power away from her, when really she's just not being smart about things. 

I get that this show is supposed to be about how we've been conditioned over the years to think about women as less than funny, and should only be seen as hot, but not financially viable.  But Kevin isn't being shown as captain of industry either. Sure, he has hare-brained ideas for making money, and whatever he thinks he wants, he gets, but his dreams seems small. I don't think the show is really showing us that he deserves to die. Be divorced maybe, but killed?  Nah. 

I agree with Sam, Allison has more control than she realizes, but telling Nick they're going to do it her way didn't seem like the right thing to me. We'll see how that plays out. I'm pretty sure Allison is heading for a disaster of some kind. 

[DanaK]

I guess I hadn't been paying much attention to Tammy the detective because I totally missed she was into Patty and had asked her out, though I finally realized what was going on in their last scene just before Patty kissed her. I did think it was weird that Tammy kept coming back to question her and had taken her to some police function. I too think she's trying to catch Patty with her questions

Kevin going back and forth between his two birthday dinners was wild. The guest athletes was definitely something sitcoms do. Even if I still think this show is weird and I'm still not sure how I feel about it, I'm impressed with the set design and thoughtfulness that went into it

[qtpye]

4 hours ago, cardigirl said:

I enjoyed this episode. The juxtaposition between all of the elements of the show in the two places, and the cast coming together in the restaurants was well done.  

Allison bugs me though. She didn't like being told to shut up by Nick, or by Patti, because Kevin runs roughshod over her and never listens, but in Nick's case, he's taking on a huge risk, so he feels like he has the right to override her, and in Patti's case, she has (maybe) a bit more experience with bad guys like Nick, so she's giving fair warning to Allison to watch out. But Allison gets frustrated, angry, because she thinks they are taking her power away from her, when really she's just not being smart about things. 

I get that this show is supposed to be about how we've been conditioned over the years to think about women as less than funny, and should only be seen as hot, but not financially viable.  But Kevin isn't being shown as captain of industry either. Sure, he has hare-brained ideas for making money, and whatever he thinks he wants, he gets, but his dreams seems small. I don't think the show is really showing us that he deserves to die. Be divorced maybe, but killed?  Nah. 

I agree with Sam, Allison has more control than she realizes, but telling Nick they're going to do it her way didn't seem like the right thing to me. We'll see how that plays out. I'm pretty sure Allison is heading for a disaster of some kind. 

Allison is far from a criminal mastermind. She might be smart when compared to Kevin but she definitely makes stupid decisions. For instance, when she called the cops on the bonehead mechanic, she shut down the supply chain of Oxy for the whole town.

She also had no clue about the opioid crisis that is ravishing towns like hers and she let her idiot husband (who she well knows is an idiot) manage their savings account. 

[Whimsy]

On 7/11/2021 at 12:22 PM, helenamonster said:

Not sure how professional it is for Tammy to be dating somebody she had previously questioned as part of an investigation, but I suppose pickings are slim in a small town, especially for a gay woman. I'm still unclear on exactly what Patty was feeling this episode, but maybe that was the point. Had she dated women before? If not, did she know she liked women? It definitely sheds a new light on her incompatibility with Kurt, though it's possible she's bi. Either way, it seems like she has some stuff to work through. I laughed out loud when she said the massage chair was "getting fresh."

Worcester is far from small with over 185,000 people. 

On 7/11/2021 at 7:04 PM, helenamonster said:

You're right, and the more I think about it, the more I think the "date" was under false pretenses to get Patty to spill more info about the drug ring and/or confess. I think there was an attempt to get her drunk (Patty wanted to drink beer and Tammy ordered her a vodka soda, likely to get her drunker faster especially as she's not used to drinking liquor) and she still seemed in interrogation mode, not letting the thing with Allison showing up go. I waved it off as that just being her way, but something definitely stinks. Also weird that she invited her to what appeared to be a retirement party for another cop as a first date? I couldn't tell exactly what it was they were at but it was some kind of police event. Why not take her to dinner or a movie?

What's a shame is that for Patty, this was clearly a big step in her understanding of herself. She's been going through changes just as monumental as Allison's. She was so uncertain of her feelings that she didn't even tell Allison she was going on a date (even if she would have left out that it was with Tammy). I have a feeling this whole thing is gonna end with her being heartbroken and completely unsure of who she is. If Tammy is playing her, she's doing more damage than she realizes, I think.

I actually thought the detective just has a monotone speaking style and a serious composure and she is genuinely interested in Patti. 

[txhorns79]

On 7/19/2021 at 6:47 PM, theredhead77 said:

He's a trash human on and off the ice. The more I think about it the more I'm annoyed with the show for giving him a platform. There are more divisive, less garbage, athletes they could have cast in this role.

Did he vanish when Kevin would leave the restaurant?  I didn't see him in the shots when it was just Allison by herself.  

I feel like the cop is playing Patty, but I also think there would be real problems with the cop trying to use anything Patty said on their dates against her in an actual courtroom.  I mean, I know cops are allowed to deceive suspects, but I do think there are limits on how far they can go.   

[possibilities]

I thought it was strange that Jenn wasn't at Sam's chip meeting earlier in the season, and that he was surprised to see her ("What are you doing here?") when she showed up when it was over, and it does seem more and more that she's at minimum a passive aggressive person and not very supportive. But, again, it's the kind of thing where you try to overlook it. If you saw this IRL, you'd think she's a little bitchy, kind of a snob, and maybe you'd think she was just rude because it's a personal vendetta against Allison. 

But because of the way this show is constructed, you are also very aware that nothing is an accident, and the possible parallel to how Patti didn't take seriously how bad Kevin was, and just kind of laughed it off... I give her less of an excuse because she knew he was draining their savings and she observed the relationship up close for 10 years... but I do think the show has the potential to be setting up the awareness that when we think something is a little thing, we don't know... it might be the tip of an iceberg. We're supposed to be uncertain what we're seeing.

I didn't get it at all that Tammy was inviting Patty to a fun thing and just trying to get her drunk for fun. Patty wanted a beer and Tammy insisted she drink vodka. She pressured Patty to go to the event. I honestly thought Patty was signing on to be an informant or something like that, and was being introduced to the department.

And before that, I thought Patty was being brought in for questioning. Patty thought that, too, and why would she not? I'm a lesbian and I usually see any hint of flirtation or attraction that we're meant to see, and nothing about Tammy's behavior coded as any kind of attraction to my eye. I don't think the show is incapable of direction, and just happened to fail in this instance. If they did, well... that's pretty bad. It's not hard to show that kind of thing, and shows do it all the time. 

So I don't really get it. Tammy might actually like Patty, and Patty might actually like Tammy, but I don't think the show actually showed that in any way I can see. I thought the way they played it, they were both trying to manipulate the other for the purposes of the investigation. But maybe I'm wrong and it's just bad acting. It would be the first time for this show, which in general is extremely well-crafted. I guess I'll know soon enough, as I'm burning through these episodes at a rapid clip.

I definitely thought Allison bought the expensive massage chair because she wants to look like she loves Kevin, and also because she liked the chair for herself. She can't admit she knows he used up their savings, so she can't call for a pause on gifts. I just don't know where that $7,000 they promised the hit man is coming from... unless it's the cash Patty has from her drug dealing days? Or are they planning to stiff him for the cash and get him arrested for the murder? I don't really understand their plan exactly. 

Neil is making me sad. He's awful but he's so far pretty much 100% pathetic.