S07.E09: Timeless

[Trini]

After a devastating betrayal, Barry turns to Timeless Wells for help. Meanwhile, Iris leads Team Citizen down a dangerous road in search of answers, and Cisco confides his biggest fear to Kamilla.

Menhaj Huda directed the episode written by Kristen Kim & Joshua V. Gilbert.

Airdate: 5/11/2021

Edited May 12, 2021 by Trini

[cambridgeguy]

Looks like Cisco might be making a mid season exit.  They still haven't explained why he wants to head off - what exactly does he want to do but can't thanks to being stuck in Star Labs? 

I did get a chuckle when he and Kamilla were talking about the San Francisco exhibit and when he jogged into the meeting.  It sure would be handy to be able to teleport anywhere, wouldn't it?  Seems like only a fool would voluntarily give up that sort of ability.

[Lantern7]

Barry: "Nora" has to die.

Iris: Does she really?

Barry: I'm going back in time . . .

Iris: I think I hear the subplot calling me! (walks away)

Timeless Wells: I wish you all knew how to quit me. Seriously.

Cisco: Barry, doesn't altering time open up the possibility to creating another Flashpoint?

Barry: This time, it won't.

Cisco: I'm gonna go off and rethink my life choices. (walks away)

Chester: I think now's as good as time to say I'm not smart like you guys. All I do is spout technobabble, and you guys nod and run with it. It's like I'm in France and everyone loves when I say "omelette du formage" over and over.

Dion: (materializing) 'Sup, nerds?

Barry: (explains the plan)

Dion: That's a terrible plan. ZAWARDO! (freezes time)

Barry: I wouldn't be killing you. I'd be freeing you from the Still Force . . . which is a phrase we can all say without laughing.

Dion: Nope. ZAWARDO AGAIN! (walks away) "Zawardo"?!? I'm a jock, not a weeaboo! (vanishes)

(meanwhile, Iris is joined by Kamilla and . . . the other one . . . to find the Speed Force . . . an embodiment of energy that's already killed someone)

Psych: Remember me?

Iris: No.

Kamila: No.

Other Lady: In our defense, we've been dealing with a lot of crap in the past eight episodes.

Psych: FEEL YOUR FEARS! (to the camera) Honestly, we didn't coordinate this with Supergirl. Total coincedence.

Dream!Nora: You'll never be as good for Barry as I am! Or was!

Iris: Is there a bucket I can vomit in? I know he's not Oedipus, but that's an image I didn't need.

(meanwhile, in the past)

Barry: I'm doing it! I'm negating the forces! And it's affecting the present!

(two minutes later, in the present)

Barry: Yeah, so I didn't destroy the forces because they're kind of like my children. (looking lovingly at Iris) Our children.

Iris: And we magic-touched Alexa back to life!

Caitlin: So that's where I was this whole time! (to Joe) Where were you?

Joe: I got in midway through the episode to give one of my patented fatherly talks. I also brought up Wally, who's probably going to return right after Ralph does.

Cisco: So you're not hopeful?

Joe: I'm not setting up a room for him, no. Also, I really couldn't stand his zen stuff from last season.

Cisco/Kamilla: (at the same time) I wanna go to San Francisco with you!

Timeless Wells: (zips back to the year 2000)

Dion: Anger, anger, unfulfilled repressed anger . . .

"Nora": Hi!

Dion: I'm not scared of you!

"Nora": (eyeroll) Why do I always meet the dumb ones?

Edited May 12, 2021 by Lantern7

[thuganomics85]

So, Speed Force Nora's betrayal apparently shattered Barry's brain that badly that his grand plan was to.... go back in time and prevent the other force folks from ever being created.  Because screwing around with the timeline always works out on this show, right?  Flashpoint was just a mere kerfuffle, right?!  Really, you know your plan is a bad one when it has both Iris and Cisco looking at you like you've lost your damn mind.  Damnit, Barry!  

Of course, Barry's reasons for not going through with it seem just as silly though.  Thanks in part to a classic Joe pep talk, Barry (and Iris) now consider the other force creations to be kind of like their children?  I mean, I somehow kind of see the logic to it, but at the same time I find it hard to believe, if that makes any sense.  But they now want to try and help set them on the right path, which, good luck with that, guys!  At least two of them seem to be happy with their powers and screwing things up for everyone else.  And you just know Speed Force Nora ain't going to make it any easier.

Alexa being brought back might have been a little far-fetched, but I'll roll with it since I really do like the actress and I'm curious to see her as a likely ally going forward.

I wonder when we'll find out Psych's identity and if/when we'll get to see Ennis Esmer's face.

At least Michelle Harrison is having fun being more antagonistic this time.

They didn't wait very long to find some way to bring Harrison back for a moment.  And his attire was so casual that I wonder if that was even a costume or if Tom Cavanagh just showed up in that and only agreed to do his scenes if he didn't have to change.  He probably has the clout to pull it off at this point.

Looks like they're already prepping Cisco's exit. 

[Bulldog]

I often wonder if the citizens of Central City question why lightning bolts so often shoot out the top of Star Labs into the sky, 

[Trini]

This was better than I thought it was going to be, but I had low expectations. I think Forces arc is shaping up to be better than the last few season villains. It hasn't really been a clear cut 'one bad guy versus the Team' situation; and it's a nice change of pace. One downside is that it's looking like everyone will be talking down the villains/antagonists this season. Disappointing; especially when other shows are doing stunts. All of the Forces seem pretty unreasonable, though.

I do have to note that with everything with Barry & Iris 'birthing' the Forces, the show has moved from sci-fi to straight up MAGIC. (But let's be real, it's been like that since Day 1.) LOL - Wallace is giving us WestAllen as parents, but in the worst way possible! In any case, by the time they do have their actual children, they should be prepared for anything.

When Barry & Iris brought Alexa back to life (!!!), I wish they had actually touched hands -- come on; I know there's sanitizer on set.

There are still so many questions - (I have a feeling we won't get many answers...) Did the Speed Force ever really get attacked? Is a human form the only way it can interact with the other forces? How and why did these forces manifest? And why these people chosen as conduits?

Still hate them treating SF Nora as a person - it's not. I'm with Barry on this.

This is one time I wish the show wasn't specific; they said essentially all of Season 7 so far has happened in less than three weeks ("17 days ago"). I think at least a small time jump is needed to distance this arc form the Mirror arc.

Convenient Deus ex Machina Wells is convenient. But at least he wasn't a caricature with a stupid accent, so thankful for that.

Kamilla leaving with Cisco is disappointing but expected. I hope they let him build Ramon Industries at least, since he can't be Vibe. Gonna miss him. 😢

Nice to see Team Citizen working together; even though Allegra didn't do anything. I don't necessarily want a Kamilla replacement, but I would like them to show that Iris has other employees, etc., and that her company is growing.

So both Barry and Iris' fears involved family and children is some way. They better have a scene with them discussing that, show!

Do we think Deon saves himself next week, or does he get saved by Team Flash?

Edited May 12, 2021 by Trini
grammar

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

Nice to see Team Citizen working together; even though Allegra didn't do anything. I don't necessarily want a Kamilla replacement, but I would like them to show that Iris has other employees, etc., and that her company is growing.

The Citizen is basically a weekly blog now, isn't it?  Can't really keep up with all of the breaking news if you drag your entire staff on the hunt for the entity that is definitely not your mother in law, no matter how much you seem to think otherwise.  Iris needs to track down Cat Grant and get some advice on how to grow a paper because keeping your staff at two (with one of those about to split) doesn't seem like a good plan.

[ottoDbusdriver]

How are 'the Forces' not the same basic plot as the Bus-metas ? 

And could they please stop calling the SpeedForce 'Nora' -- it's not Nora.

ETA: So .... many .... pep talks.

Plus, why isn't Deon more freaked out that he has traveled into the future ?

How many times has Cisco left Star Labs by now ?  The writers needs to come up with a better excuse, because this happens way too often.

Edited May 12, 2021 by ottoDbusdriver

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

Still hate them treating SF Nora as a person - it's not. I'm with Barry on this.

Add me to this list. Hate hate hate hate it. And that Iris walked away from Barry because he disagreed with her? Fine, go and do your own thing, then. I also HATE that they've given the Speed Force Nora's face. With the others, they're just, well, forces, that take over a human body as its host.

So this is how Cisco will be leaving.

Eric Wallace SUCKS.

[Lady Calypso]

Ok, so add me as another who HATES that they're acting like the Speedforce is actually Nora. This has gotten me very irritated with Iris, who is acting super dumb just to have conflict with Barry. I wholeheartedly disagree with Iris' argument about wanting to try to save Nora. I am not on Iris' side in this entire arc. Barry telling Iris that Nora isn't a person was right on the money. This whole episode was irritating for several reasons, mostly because the arguments presented were very weak. And I'm really not fond of Barry/Iris treating the Forces like their children. My god, except for Nora, these Forces are in real life human beings. They weren't just created by magic, they were put into people. 

Barry going back in time to destroy the Forces wasn't even technically wrong. If he could do it without messing up the timeline, then good on him! It would have spared the human lives who got taken over by the Forces in the first place. However, my only thing is that I could not see a path where Barry WOULDN'T change the timeline. Because, hi, it's been 17 days of them trying to fight the Forces. Abra died because Fuerza. I guess the idea was that the Forces would just disappear or whatever in the present day but...still, dunno how that would have truly worked. Not that it mattered, because Barry decided to change his mind at the last minute.

I mean, I was all for them saving Alexa, but it was just so...weird how they brought her back, literally, through Barry and Iris just holding their hands over her foot and believing...I guess. This season has been very cheesy and I'm not so sure I like it. I know this show has been based off of pep talks and hope and optimism and whatever else, but this season has been very pushy in terms of the POWER OF LOVE theme. 

On the bright side, Timeless Wells was fun. Probably the best Wells for me since season 2 Harry. He wasn't over the top with his humour, but he also wasn't just downright depressing. He was in the middle, which was a solid balance.

Evil Nora is...something, I guess. I still stand by the fact that she's not a full blown villain, now that she's dressing in black and has the Hand Shake of Death! 

Cisco and Kamilla are leaving Central City! I guess this is his true exit! Ok, then! I still don't buy Cisco/Kamilla as a couple, but I guess that doesn't matter now.

[Trini]

I will say I like that Michelle Harrison is getting to play an antagonistic role.

4 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Plus, why isn't Deon more freaked out that he has traveled into the future ?
 

He seems to be sticking with his high school look (since he's got time powers and all), but I'm pretty sure Deon is from the present.

Quote

How many times has Cisco left Star Labs by now ?  The writers needs to come up with a better excuse, because this happens way too often.

I don't think Cisco has ever really left STAR Labs? (Which is a problem, IMO.) He's has taken trips and missed episodes, if that's what you mean. By now he should have had some side thing going on; they did develop his character with his powers and Vibe, then they took that away from him. (Not to mention, also Cynthia.) It's just a shame they regressed his character and now he's leaving.

[jmonique]

I'm only about 20 minutes into last night's episode, but no wonder

Spoiler

Cavanaugh and Carlos are leaving.

When did the acting get so bad? Dion nearly left teeth marks in the set.

[tennisgurl]

Exploring the different forces is a decently interesting idea, but I found this episode to be really frustrating. Mainly because of the way everyone is treating the forces like they're just normal people like the villains they normally fight and not angry cosmic forces wrecking havoc upon the populace, with way more hand wringing then actual planning, and everyone except for Barry insisting that the Speed Force is Nora when she so obviously isn't. She looks like Nora, but Nora Allen is long dead, this is the Speed Force, an primal force that does not think in the way that a person thinks and should not be treated the way that Nora would be treated. This whole "the forces are your children" thing just seems stupid, especially when the forces, except for Alexa, are actively hurting people of their own free will, and their only plan now seems to be giving them lots of sappy pep talks and hoping they stop before the civilian body count gets too high. So they cant kill them because its bad, they cant just lock them up in jail because they're too powerful, so what do they do? I know that this show loves to redeem its villains with pep talks, but come on at least Team Flash usually try to have a Plan B if that doesn't work. And, again, those were with actual people, and not angry forces of the cosmos. Joe, this is a little bit different then Wally, just a normal kid, being a rebellious teenager going through some stuff, these are extremely dangerous entities that refuse to be reasoned with and have already terrorized cities for kicks and locked a town in a time loop because they're host peaked in high school, that's a lot more serious than Wally's teen angst. The human parts of them seem to be totally cool with having these forces inside of them and have already rejected a few speeches, so its hard not to see destroying them before they can land in people as a solid idea. 

I am so sick of characters giving these stupid sanctimonious speeches about how destroying these clear and present threats to the safety of others is just so bad and evil, but they refuse to give any other options as to how to stop them from killing. "There has to be another way!" "Alright then, what other ideas have you got?" "...Another Way!" Barry going back to change time might be playing with fire considering his history with Flashpoint, but it sounds like he figured out how do it without messing with the timeline too much, and at least its an idea. Its a real plan, and it might not be great but he's the only person bringing any actual plans to the table beyond making the forces good by throwing some Care Bear vibes at them, which they already tried and it didn't work. In fact, by doing that, he would be saving the people who got the forces in them before any of this could even happen, its not like these people were created by Barry and Iris, the forces inside of them are, before that they were just random people. Even if time travel isn't a perfect idea, its hard not to see Barry as the only person actually trying to do anything to protect people while all anyone else can offer are guilt trips and platitudes. Don't judge your children by what they are now? Cant we judge them for the reign of terror just a little bit? Deon just proclaimed himself a God and Psyche was just cackling evilly about how much his human and force selves love having this power to terrorize people, that's really something that I feel comfortable judging. And I hate being on the other side of Iris, but she is just being ridiculous insisting on acting like Nora is Barry's mom and that these forces are so in need of saving and undoing them is evil, I am totally with Barry on that one. In fact, even with the time travel idea Barry was the only person making any sense this week, sadly. Are the forces even fully sentient? How much is them and how much are the people they are inside of? 

Did Cisco seriously just say that Deon just "wants to be who he is"? Because being who Deon is is apparently an angry God, but we're cool with that? Then you get scenes where Psych is cackling evilly while trapping Allegra, Iris, and Kamilla in nightmares, then when he stops and starting screaming in pain, Iris is all "I didn't get through to him" and its all sad? Like, oh no, he wont be able to trap people in a fate worst then death, the horror! Truly Barry has crossed a line! You cant tell us one thing and expect to feel a certain kind of way while showing us something that seems like the opposite of what its telling us. 

I cant blame

Spoiler

Carlos for leaving considering this is the material he gets.

Its sucks because I have always loved Cisco, but ever since he decided to give up his powers for no reason they have had no idea what to do with him. Even now, his exit from the show is just wandering off with his boring girlfriend and his boring relationship, the same reason he gave up his powers and also half his personality, a relationship that takes place mostly offscreen. I feel bad because I like the actress, but Kamilla has never been an interesting character and her relationship with Cisco has always felt more like it existed to motivate him to do stuff then a relationship the show was interested in.

Spoiler

So now he leaves because he's bored of Star Labs and wants to go be in his boring relationship elsewhere, talk about going out with a whimper. I am glad they aren't killing him off or anything (I don't think) but I wish they had written him off with a better reason than "Kamilla has a photo gallery and I'm bored with being here, bye!". 

Despite my complaints, there were things I liked in this episode. I rolled my eyes at yet another Wells performance, but Timeless Wells was pretty good here. I thought the effects all looked really good, especially when Barry saw the forces created. I am glad that Alexa is alive again, even if the circumstances were pretty ridiculous. If Chester is going to be the new Cisco, they are toning him down a lot which is appreciated, even if he was part of the stupid "don't kill the terrifying cosmic babies! Its wrong for some reason!" chorus. 

I find it really funny that after all the drama last week no one even mentioned Frost. Out of sight out of mind. 

[dmeets]

So Barry and Iris consider the forces their "children." Sure why not, since they're used to interacting with their adult children. As long as they don't consider the speed force their child. "She's my mother and my daughter" would be too much.

Weird how each force exists so differently. Speed Force didn't possess anyone and conjured up the form of Nora; Deon is apparently fully integrated with his force; Psych seems to be 100% force and 0% human at this point; and Alexa basically has a split personality that she's unaware of.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, dmeets said:

So Barry and Iris consider the forces their "children." Sure why not, since they're used to interacting with their adult children. As long as they don't consider the speed force their child. "She's my mother and my daughter" would be too much.

Weird how each force exists so differently. Speed Force didn't possess anyone and conjured up the form of Nora; Deon is apparently fully integrated with his force; Psych seems to be 100% force and 0% human at this point; and Alexa basically has a split personality that she's unaware of.

Only because that's what Joe told him these other forces were.

And no, other than the speed force that looks like Nora, the other forces are using other humans as hosts for their power/entity.

It's all so galactically STOOPID.

[shantown]

7 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

This season has been very cheesy and I'm not so sure I like it. I know this show has been based off of pep talks and hope and optimism and whatever else, but this season has been very pushy in terms of the POWER OF LOVE theme. 

And if they're not even going to use the Huey Lewis song, what's the point?!
 

4 hours ago, dmeets said:

Weird how each force exists so differently. Speed Force didn't possess anyone and conjured up the form of Nora; Deon is apparently fully integrated with his force; Psych seems to be 100% force and 0% human at this point; and Alexa basically has a split personality that she's unaware of.

I wonder if that will come into play at all or if it's just inconsistent writing (basically, what did the plot need any of them to do at the time versus what made "sense" scientifically)

I do like this idea of the different forces but they don't really make sense... like both the speed force and the Deon force can control time? Psych can't control minds, just fears? Alexa is strong, but she doesn't really control anything? It's all very confusing.

[appositival]

8 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Evil Nora is...something, I guess. I still stand by the fact that she's not a full blown villain, now that she's dressing in black and has the Hand Shake of Death! 

Did she look a bit haggard there at the end? I'm wondering if she will prune-up like Emperor Palpatine. If she becomes ugly I'm sure Team Flash will have no problem 'killing' her.

I didn't see a shot of her when the other forces were getting unforced. With this show, I have to wonder if that is deliberate or just sloppy.

[catrice2]

I can't even sit through a whole show anymore...not even for Jesse...

[phoenics]

I enjoyed this episode more than the last two - but even I feel the Barry+Iris birthed the Forces thing a bit overwrought.  Love Iris as lightning rod - but this kinda pushed a bit too far, imo, though connecting their connection to the Forces was interesting.  I feel like there is a better way to tell this story but whatever.

I loved the Deion actor chewing up the scenery - that was just good old fashioned villainy and he's pretty compelling.  Nice shout out to DMX at the end too.  RIP.

I am intrigued by this forces storyline but the show's storytelling is just so simplistic and childish that it's killing what should be a GREAT storyline.

I gotta admit - I'm gonna be sad to see Cisco and Wells go.

[Starry]

17 hours ago, phoenics said:

I am intrigued by this forces storyline but the show's storytelling is just so simplistic and childish that it's killing what should be a GREAT storyline.

I think this is why I am not connecting with this season. That and the covid restrictions.

[Quark]

Barry and Iris sure ended up having a lot of kids. Blimey!

[Daltrey]

On 5/11/2021 at 6:37 PM, cambridgeguy said:

They still haven't explained why he wants to head off - what exactly does he want to do but can't thanks to being stuck in Star Labs? 

Not be on the show anymore because it sucks so much now - he's very meta in his reasoning.😁

[adora721]

On 5/11/2021 at 6:37 PM, cambridgeguy said:

Looks like Cisco might be making a mid season exit.  They still haven't explained why he wants to head off - what exactly does he want to do but can't thanks to being stuck in Star Labs? 

I thought Cisco was supposed to tell Kamilla what his greatest fear was in the Psych vision. Was that not for this episode?

On 5/11/2021 at 8:06 PM, Lantern7 said:

Cisco/Kamilla: (at the same time) I wanna go to San Francisco with you!

That's the thing though, Cisco didn't say  "I want to go to San Francisco with you." He said, "I have to leave Central City."  When Cisco first learns about San Francisco, he's happy for Kamilla, but I didn't get the sense that it was a permanent move she was asking him for, or, if it was, I didn't get the sense that Cisco was interested.

It's only later after the Deon incident in Star Labs that Cisco said he has to leave Central City. That makes me think that him leaving is about trying to prevent his greatest fear from coming true. I think Kamilla's opportunity in San Fran is just Cisco's excuse to leave; it's not really about Kamilla. 

[bettername2come]

I really like the work Michelle Harrison is doing here (took me 7 years, but I've finally learned her name). It's the most range she's ever needed to show and she works so well with Grant, but the storyline is pretty meh. I do not want Cisco to leave. I want him to have a decent storyline and powers and stick around. And they've done so many leaving or fake leaving stories with Joe, Cisco, Caitlin and more Wellses than I can remember that I'm not giving him potentially leaving the attention it deserves. 

[Starry]

On a rewatch, I still think it's cringe and dumb to treat the Forces like they are Barry and Iris' children but I get why they don't want to erase them from existence. In the previous episode they tried to use Frost to hammer home the point that the powers are a fundamental part of what a meta is and it's unethical to force the cure on metas, even on those who used their special abilities to commit crimes and harm people. So why should it be any different with the Forces? Didn't they save Frost with the power of love too? They made a cure because Caitlin wanted Frost gone but never forced it on her. And aside from Alexa, Psych and Deon actually consider the Forces a part of them.

Now I understand that the Forces are supposed to be more dangerous and threatening than regular metas but it doesn't really come across in the narrative. Fuerza, Psych and Deon all had their special episode and then disappeared until this one. I get why Barry decided to go back in time and prevent their birth after the Speed Force went rogue and killed Alexa but the show is used to this kind of dilemmas and it wouldn't be the first time the Speed Force (or some meta they know) did something bad. I just wish they had found a better way to tell this story. I get where they were coming from but the writing is really simplistic and it would have been better if Barry and Iris had just felt responsible for the Forces without being made to think of them as their actual children.

I also don't understand why people say that the characters keep treating the Speed Force like she's Barry's mother. They treat it like she's a person who has a special bond with Barry but not like she's his actual mother. Iris suspected that "Nora" was in Barry's childhood home because that's where she went when she was about to die. It had nothing to do with Iris and the team thinking that the Speed Force is the real Nora Allen.