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Kromm

"Stan" culture

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8 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

The media and paparazzi do what they do because the fandoms basically demand it. They are just feeding the beast that is Fandom because Fandom is willing to throw their money at every scandalous, salacious and intrusive detail they can get on the people they supposedly adore and defend with almost religious zealously. 

It's just ultimately ironic to me that many of the same people saying "free Britney" now were probably the ones at least partially responsible for her situation in the first place. But that's not the weirdest part of the progression. It's that "leave Britney alone" portion shortly after her breakdown. When it was their own hunger for information on her that drove the tabloid obsession with her in the first place. 

And now, the "free Britney" stuff is again possibly repeating the pattern, in a new variation. Maybe not the relentless physical following of her (the Pandemic is interfering with that for everyone) but the fan obsession with what's going on with her, the sense of ownership over her fate, and a new layer of assumptions about what she does and doesn't need. 

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1 hour ago, Kromm said:

fan obsession with what's going on with her, the sense of ownership over her fate, and a new layer of assumptions about what she does and doesn't need. 

Yeah, I've suffered permanent damage to my eye sockets from the heavy eyerolling, caused by all the amateur lawyers and psychiatrists who clearly know what is best for Britney.

Edited by SuprSuprElevated
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12 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

The media and paparazzi do what they do because the fandoms basically demand it. They are just feeding the beast that is Fandom because Fandom is willing to throw their money at every scandalous, salacious and intrusive detail they can get on the people they supposedly adore and defend with almost religious zealously. 

It's always been this way only advances in technology make it easier and easier to destroy our idols, or destroy those who dare not worship our idols from the comfort of our own homes. 

As a society we've exchanged religious crusades for fandom crusades. 

Hence all the articles in the last day or two about Zac Efron maybe or maybe not having plastic surgery, and the excitement/disappointment/outrage of his fans/haters, as well as speculation, over whatever he may or may not have had done.

Putting people on a pedestal either with the intention of tearing them down or of forever propping them up is incredibly unhealthy, for those on the pedestal as well as for those who put them there. And the tabloid media, as well as even less scrupulous social media influencers and Youtubers, will make as much hay as they can over the whole thing.

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The stans I really loathe are the MCU Stucky stans, who proceeded to harass Emily VanCamp for having one stupid kiss scene with Chris Evans. And instead of telling these people to cool it and leave her alone, the filmmakers decided to take the easy way out and just write her out of the movies 

Spoiler

And then bring her back turn her character into a villain in TFATWS

Look, people can ship whoever they want but don’t go trolling the actors when your ship doesn’t become canon. And all that ended up for nothing since Stucky was never going to happen. Instead we got that controversial Endgame outcome that people are still arguing about to this very day. Thanks A LOT, stans!

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Instead we got that controversial Endgame outcome that people are still arguing about to this very day.

So that ending came about because the filmmakers listened to the Stans?

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30 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

The stans I really loathe are the MCU Stucky stans

Just this. Fans of characters or sports teams (and I am not a sports fan) will really sour me on a character (or team) that I would not have paid much attention to or marginally liked otherwise. Stucky fans did just that with Bucky Barnes.

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38 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

The stans I really loathe are the MCU Stucky stans, who proceeded to harass Emily VanCamp for having one stupid kiss scene with Chris Evans. And instead of telling these people to cool it and leave her alone, the filmmakers decided to take the easy way out and just write her out of the movies 

  Reveal spoiler

And then bring her back turn her character into a villain in TFATWS

Look, people can ship whoever they want but don’t go trolling the actors when your ship doesn’t become canon. And all that ended up for nothing since Stucky was never going to happen. Instead we got that controversial Endgame outcome that people are still arguing about to this very day. Thanks A LOT, stans!

 

4 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Just this. Fans of characters or sports teams (and I am not a sports fan) will really sour me on a character (or team) that I would not have paid much attention to or marginally liked otherwise. Stucky fans did just that with Bucky Barnes.

*sigh*  Have I mentioned how nice it is to be blissfully unaware of these things and only hear about them on occasion when I scroll by a headline or hear about it in passing? When my kids were teenagers, they weren't that bad (although, I expect that my son gets a little more invested that I'd like him to, but I haven't heard him say any too outrageous).

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3 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Just this. Fans of characters or sports teams (and I am not a sports fan) will really sour me on a character (or team) that I would not have paid much attention to or marginally liked otherwise. Stucky fans did just that with Bucky Barnes.

Absolutely. “Stans” canonize the objects of their stanning and attack every perceived slight. So while I might like Actor X just fine, I also want to say things like “that dress makes Actor X looks like she tried to break up a fight between a paper shredder and a paint mixer” without being attacked by stans who tell me the dress was made from locally sourced hemp and the shredding effect is a symbol of Actor X’s commitment to ending world hunger, and that I have promoted world hunger by disliking Actor X’s dress.

End result is that I begin tp loathe Actor X for what really isn’t that actor’s fault. Failing to acknowledge the failings and missteps of a celebrity really seems to be key to differentiate between stanning and fanning. 

The minute people feel the need to defend every action that the celebrity has ever taken and see every non-complimentary or neutral statement about the celebrity as a reason to attack, that person has crossed from fanning to stanning. 

Edited by BlackberryJam · Reason: Typo
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4 hours ago, Enigma X said:

Fans of characters or sports teams (and I am not a sports fan) will really sour me on a character (or team) that I would not have paid much attention to or marginally liked otherwise.

Oh, yes.  I am a sports fan, and there are indeed teams I would otherwise be neutral on but instead root against because of how annoyed I am by their obnoxious vocal fan base.

Edited by Bastet
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5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

The stans I really loathe are the MCU Stucky stans, who proceeded to harass Emily VanCamp for having one stupid kiss scene with Chris Evans.

The worst part of this sort of thing, and it happens, sadly, in a lot of Shippy Standoms, is that I seriously doubt that kiss was put in at EVC's insistance, I doubt she told the writers that they needed to abandon the stucky ship (which I seriously doubt would ever have happened regardless if they put Cap in any other relationship) in favor of (is there a name for Cap and Sharon?). it is in no way whatsoever the actors fault if their character is shipped with another character (except perhaps in some very rare occasions where a lead actor has a huge amount of pull). 

While I 'hate' EVC for having a job where part of her work responsibilities include kissing Chris Evans (that would qualify as my dream job so I'm just jealous), I don't for a second think she, the actress, had any pull in keeping Stucky for happening. 

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3 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

The worst part of this sort of thing, and it happens, sadly, in a lot of Shippy Standoms, is that I seriously doubt that kiss was put in at EVC's insistance, I doubt she told the writers that they needed to abandon the stucky ship (which I seriously doubt would ever have happened regardless if they put Cap in any other relationship) in favor of (is there a name for Cap and Sharon?). it is in no way whatsoever the actors fault if their character is shipped with another character (except perhaps in some very rare occasions where a lead actor has a huge amount of pull). 

While I 'hate' EVC for having a job where part of her work responsibilities include kissing Chris Evans (that would qualify as my dream job so I'm just jealous), I don't for a second think she, the actress, had any pull in keeping Stucky for happening. 

Hell, I doubt that anyone at Disney really gave a second thought to stucky 'shippers when they wrote that kiss. They'd planned it from the outset of The Winter Soldier, because Sharon is Steve's most significant comic book love interest and they wanted to bring her in to the MCU to fill that role too.

To the writers and producers at Marvel and Disney, Steve is straight and Bucky is straight - they've both shown significant interest in women and none in men. That's the way both characters have been written and squinting for subtext doesn't change the intentions of the filmmakers, so it really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone when the straight, strapping hero of the action movie kisses the pretty lady. We've got a hundred years of Hollywood moviemaking history to tell us that's going to happen.

Stans for what is essentially an alternate, non-canon version of something are perhaps another step in the evolution, and it's not just stucky. Anyone familiar with the professional wrestler Jon Moxley might have heard about the crazy people on tumblr who concocted the fiction that the woman he's now married to had completely fabricated the lie that they were in a relationship, and was actually a psychopath who was sleeping with loads of wrestlers at the WWE. These were real people, not movie or TV characters, yet his supposed fans would completely deny reality to fuel their own fantasies.

But I guess if the last few years have taught us anything, it's that reality doesn't have to be reality to everyone.

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I really don’t see shipping as one of the bigger stan problems. I say this as a devoted Jaime and Brienne shipper who despised the toxicity of Jaime and Cersei. The show’s ending was a giant dump on every GoTfandom, but I don’t believe that the writers investigated the fandoms and thought, “hey, let’s dump on them.” I certainly don’t buy into the narrative, and it is out there, that Nikolaj Coster Waldau had pissed off the writers and therefore they screwed over his character. 

I just don’t think writers care as much about ships, shipping, fanfiction, etc, as fans do.  And for them it’s a business. They are writing what they think will sell, earn awards, surprise everyone, create water cooler moments, etc. They aren’t revenge writing against fans, actors or characters.

My big issue, or maybe just what I see as the main issue, in stanning is the stanning of real live people. BeyHives and Cumberbitches and Whedonites and SussexSquads and Swifties and KatesRangers and JLovers. These people act like they have personal relationships with and understanding of the objects of their stanning. So when someone comments negatively on Beyoncé or whomever, they dogpile. I have seem some seriously crazy stuff on those tags about rallying the troops to take down someone who insulted their faves. 

The Benedict Cumberbatch internet hole is particularly terrifying. The CumberSkeptics who think his wife is a scheming prostitute who faked a pregnancy to force him into marriage. Terrifying. 

It’s this idea that fans have a special relationship that frightens me about stanning. Shipping. *shrug* That’s generally fine.*

*Exceptions to the rule of fineness, the Outlander fans who insisted that the two stars were dating (SamCait) and that complete nutter (dubemoir) who insists that Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir (figure skating dance pair) were a couple who had to hide the birth of their children to appease the Canadian figure skating association. 

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51 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

The Benedict Cumberbatch internet hole is particularly terrifying. The CumberSkeptics who think his wife is a scheming prostitute who faked a pregnancy to force him into marriage. Terrifying

WTF???? Seriously?!?

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Do these people seriously not have anything better to do with their time? I love me some BennyBatch but I have no clue how many children he has, nor would I ever doubt that he and his wife had them together because...why would I? What is the point? 

As to Blue Ivy and all the other pregnancies these internet morons are trying to prove were faked, what's the point? Does it make them feel important to "crack" the case? Does it make them feel validated if they can take down a celeb? I just don't get what they get out of trying to destroy a new parents joy by trying to make other people think the pregnancy was in some way dishonest. 

I really don't care if every single celeb birth was faked in some way. It won't affect my life if Colin Hanks wasn't carried in Rita Wilson's tummy. he's still her kid. Or if Apple (does she go by Paltrow, or the husbands name) was created in a lab. She's still Gwenyth and that guys kid. (you can see I am very well versed in celeb babies. lol) I do hope, for Suri's sake, that somehow, some way Tom Cruise isn't really her father, but that's my Tom Cruise/Scientology hate showing through. 

Point is, it's none of our damned business if anyone pretends to be pregnant but uses a surrogate instead, or if a woman's baby is really her husbands, or if they are all really alien children implanted in famous woman as some sort of first wave of alien invasion. Okay, that last one would actually be a world concern since it meant aliens not only exist but have found us and are somehow not so utterly turned off by our horrible behaviour that they want to colonize our planet. I may have just gone off on a tangent, and yet, it's still more sensible than what I read in that article. YIKES

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7 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Do these people seriously not have anything better to do with their time?

Just responding to this part. Stanning for some is like being watching baseball for others. I know people who (used to) attend 60+ baseball games per year, watch the away games on TV, study the stats and run a fantasy baseball league. And my thoughts were, “Don’t you have anything better to do with your time?” But the reality is that baseball is a hobby some people really enjoy.

Stanning is a hobby like gardening, book clubs, and stamp collecting. I might think it’s a ridiculous hobby, but people think posting on Internet forums discussing TV is a ridiculous hobby and wonder where I get the time. Do I have better things to do? Sure...there are kitchen cabinets to reorganize and laundry to fold. But I enjoy this instead. 

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Stans for what is essentially an alternate, non-canon version of something are perhaps another step in the evolution, and it's not just stucky.

The real life Hoyay! shipping sometimes freaks me out more than the ones for fictional characters. People will squint from every direction trying to prove to everyone that these 2 same sex people are really in a relationship. One of my favorite examples was in a Youtube video a few years ago where the person posting the video insisted that Diana Agron and Lea Michele were secretly a couple. Their proof? In a video of them hanging out backstage while filming the show, one of them asked the other if she wanted a salad with her lunch. And the poster was not joking, they were serious.

Look I'm gay, and it's nice to see more celebrities coming out of the closet and being more confident and secure with who they are. But stanning a real life gay couple that doesn't exist is just beyond delusional.

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Do these people seriously not have anything better to do with their time?

This article isn't about stanning, but it is kind of adjacent to the topic (The internet has turned us all into amateur detectives), and one part does seem to show how a stan would be thinking about how their favorite celebrities would act:

Quote

"They’ve broken up. I know they’ve broken up because I haven’t seen him on her Instagram Stories for weeks now, and she normally doesn’t go two days without zooming in on his moustache or snapping him with his hashtag pint. OK, there are still photos of him on her main feed – granted, sure, that could mean they’re still together. But there, look, see: she’s just posted her dinner. Steak tacos. He’s a vegetarian, remember? She never ate meat when she was with him."

 

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9 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

As to Blue Ivy and all the other pregnancies these internet morons are trying to prove were faked, what's the point?

Or even acknowledging they're real and talking so much about the resulting children is already weird. 

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5 hours ago, Hiyo said:

The real life Hoyay! shipping sometimes freaks me out more than the ones for fictional characters. People will squint from every direction trying to prove to everyone that these 2 same sex people are really in a relationship. 

Exhibit A here being Jensen Ackles and Jared Padalecki from Supernatural. Both have been married with kids for years, and still 'J2' shippers insist the wives and children are mere beards for their 'true' relationship. 🙄

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IIRC, in 2019, some other attendee leaned over to the area where Beyonce Knowles was sitting at a basketball game which got the latter to give this person an annoyed look. One would think ' the end' but it wasn't. 

 Members of the 'Bey-Hive' went on the warpath via Twitter,etc. towards this other attendee for having somehow dissed and thrown shade on their idol's space for having dared to lean over to the point of making serious threats to this other person. I couldn't help but think that they were behaving like they were part of The Brood (a monster movie in which a very disturbed woman via a preposterous plot bears these gnome-like creatures that literally solely exist to attack and destroy anyone who has ever upset this individual).

That was quite chilling and one can't help but wonder why anyone would volunteer to become that way towards others- especially total strangers who'd done nothing  to them personally. 

Edited by Blergh
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This is from memory so some details may be fuzzy but I believe that was at a Warriors game.  Beyonce and Jay-Z were sitting with the owner (?) and his wife.  Mrs. Warriors apparently leaned over to ask Jay-Z what he wanted to drink which led to the whole thing.

 

Didn't Rachel Ray also get heat on Twitter because her name is similar to whomever the inspiration for Becky with the good hair is and people got confused?

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2 minutes ago, kiddo82 said:

This is from memory so some details may be fuzzy but I believe that was at a Warriors game.  Beyonce and Jay-Z were sitting with the owner (?) and his wife.  Mrs. Warriors apparently leaned over to ask Jay-Z what he wanted to drink which led to the whole thing.

 

Didn't Rachel Ray also get heat on Twitter because her name is similar to whomever the inspiration for Becky with the good hair is and people got confused?

Rachel Roy? 

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3 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

Rachel Roy? 

 

Found a link

I remember my mom telling me about the lemonade recipe which I always thought was a very clever way to address the situation.

Edited by kiddo82
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Good God but Beyhivers are the worst.

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2 hours ago, Hiyo said:

Good God but Beyhivers are the worst.

They are part of the reason I can't stand Beyonce. While I know a celeb isn't 100% responsible for what their fandom does, I also think a toxic fandom reflects quite badly on the celeb. 

Has there been a toxic fandom where the celeb has called them out on their behaviour? I wonder if that would make them quit their harrassing ways or just make them turn on their idol and start harrassing him/her.

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On 4/23/2021 at 1:22 AM, Kromm said:
On 4/22/2021 at 4:35 PM, biakbiak said:

 

If you think about it, it makes sense. 

I'm going to be very delicate here, because of board rules, and not be specific, but I think we're all aware that modern politics is largely based on a "team" mentality. You might also refer to it as Tribalism. 

It’s actually not even close unless you decided to yourself break it down that way! 

As for Stan culture I will always be TEAM SMIDGE ALWAYS AND FOREVER!! As in Sarah Michelle Gellar’s entire career from Swan’s Crossing to AMC to Buffy and beyond!

Edited by biakbiak
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On 4/27/2021 at 8:41 PM, Mabinogia said:

Has there been a toxic fandom where the celeb has called them out on their behaviour? I wonder if that would make them quit their harrassing ways or just make them turn on their idol and start harrassing him/her.

I had some vague memory that somewhere in the Trio of Lady Gaga, Taylor Swift and Katy Perry, who all had Stan groups that viscously verbally attacked the other celebrities, and the opposing fans, that one of them, I don't recall which, maybe tried to do something at one point.  I'm leaning more towards either Swift or Perry, mostly because I think Perry eventually appearing in a Swift video in a hamburger suit might have been what was done when asking the Stans to ease up didn't work. 

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35 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

People see what they want and hear what they want, sometimes. It was pretty obvious that a man who grew up in the 1930s and 40s would be shocked by a lot of 21st century dating stuff, particularly online.

They won't be happy until Bucky randomly declares he's gay... and then they still won't be happy because they'll want a retroactive demonstration that Steve was also gay despite him no longer being a part of the MCU. I find it easier to ignore this stuff now than try to point out that it doesn't really make sense.

From that article, about Sam and Bucky:

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“It’s really love, right?” she said. “They love each other — at the end. They don’t love each other at the beginning, but they come to a friendship place where they love each other. So I’m not really sensitive to masculinity as any kind of barrier between that love, or how it should manifest. I’m completely fluid when it comes to any of that. So there’s no defined sexuality to any of it. So it’s, really, I think, just affection.”

This is where I think slash shippers often seem to lose their way. They don't see affectionate and loving interactions between men as proof of platonic love, but as proof of sexual attraction. It really hamstrings the notion that people can be important to one another without it being about sex. Steve and Bucky couldn't be close friends who grew up together, that wasn't a worthy relationship. Just like those Bruce/Dick shippers don't feel the fact that Bruce Wayne took in, raised and eventually adopted Dick Grayson in what has been a loving father/son relationship, really matters. No. They want it to be about this father and son actually being gay for each other.

Devin Grayson wrote a story where Dick hooked up with Huntress, and Barbara Gordon chastised him for it, saying something like "I know she reminds you of..." before cutting off awkwardly. It was clear that she meant, "I know she reminds you of me when I was Batgirl and I was full of life and not bitter because I was paralysed by the Joker in a misogynistic, nasty little story written by Alan Moore," but a certain section of fans went gaga, believing she meant "I know she reminds you of Batman." So weird.

Meanwhile, you'll often find some of the same people complaining about men and women not being allowed to just be friends on TV and in movies, and it always having to come down to sexual attraction.

Edited by Danny Franks
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13 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

This is where I think slash shippers often seem to lose their way. They don't see affectionate and loving interactions between men as proof of platonic love, but as proof of sexual attraction. It really hamstrings the notion that people can be important to one another without it being about sex. Steve and Bucky couldn't be close friends who grew up together, that wasn't a worthy relationship.

There is definitely a piece in there where men expressing their emotions towards each other in a positive way "must" mean they're in passionate love, and while I guess it's also present with pairings like Jane Rizzoli and Maura Isles, I don't think those shippers are quite as insistent on it. Like it or not, not all of that stuff about men being stoic and close-mouthed has faded from the public perception of guys just yet, so fictional men being open about their affection for another man just gives the stans more fodder to work with. Not matter how brotherly the relationship is, and sometimes even when it is brotherly, like the Winchester boys.

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55 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

This is where I think slash shippers often seem to lose their way. They don't see affectionate and loving interactions between men as proof of platonic love, but as proof of sexual attraction.

It's all part of our "macho" geared society. "Real Men" don't show feelings of love. If they love someone it's because they want to bang them. Heaven forbid two men hug!!?!?!?! Clearly that means they have hot, undeniable passion for one another. 

It is like that for any two characters, be they male/male, male/female, female/female, human/robot, etc there is something about filming something with a camera that makes everyone watching expect people to hook up. And you best run for cover if they don't hook up because the rabid fans will attack. And there are some seriously rabid fan bases out there. 

The sad thing is, some people put more effort into defending a fictional couple than they are in trying to get equal rights for all, end the Covid pandemic, or just generally make the world a better place. Maybe it's just because it's easier to invest in something that isn't real as there are no real consequences.

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While I personally don't ship Bucky with Steve or Sam (or anyone for that matter), I have to defend their shippers here a little. Considering the fact that in 20 movies within MCU we have had zero LGBT+ characters (not that we have had any in any other major franchise), combined with the fact that there are very few female characters, it is not really that hard to see where the fans are coming from. That being said, some shippers definitely cross the line in their behaviour when they contact actors for example. But just like with all toxic fandoms, the loudest members are a small minority and unfortunately are making a bad name for the whole fandom - the prime example being Star Wars in recent years.

In case anyone is interested in a more grounded take on why some of same sex shippers, many of whom are LGBT+ themselves, are exhausted at this point, my favorite youtuber has made a video about this very topic:

 

Please note that I mean no offense to anyone in this thread, I agree with you that many shippers are behaving embarassingly, I just wanted to point out that they don't represent all of us.

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Considering the fact that in 20 movies within MCU we have had zero LGBT+ characters (not that we have had any in any other major franchise), combined with the fact that there are very few female characters, it is not really that hard to see where the fans are coming from.

They would probably be like that anyway even if there were more LGBT+ characters.

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3 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

Please note that I mean no offense to anyone in this thread, I agree with you that many shippers are behaving embarassingly, I just wanted to point out that they don't represent all of us.

Having watched the video, I appreciate Rowan's in depth take on the subject. I'm not familiar with her as a Youtube personality, but she's much more knowledgeable about the comics than I am, so it was informative either way.

However.

It's just as fair to focus on the embarrassing shippers as it is on the fanboys who wildly over-react at female leads (*waves at Brie Larson*). 'That's not all of us' goes for the normal fans on both sides of the fence, they've just chosen different things to be annoying about. In some ways, and I don't mean anyone here, because as far as I can tell we're  the normal ones, stans use what may or may not be a genuine desire for equality to cover for their nuttiness, because the stans who have chosen the Stucky hill to die on are only separate from the Reylo crowd in that Kylo Ren was a true creep in every sense of the word and Steve and Bucky aren't. I would argue a tiny bit that some of Steve's fans see him in ways that are a little rose-colored glasses, which has nothing to do with Barnes, but that's not really stanning. I guess.

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I truly don’t know if stans of certain ships are really that insistent that it’s real. I see a lot of essays (meta) being thrown about regarding the validity of ships and ending with something like, “I’ll die on this hill.” 

To me that just means, “I’m emotionally invested in what this ship means to me.” That’s not a bad thing, especially when people are looking for representation in their entertainment media, or even just “someone who feels like I feel.” It’s a damn fucking shame that so many people have to argue for that representation instead of there just being actual media for them to consume.

On the other hand, I don’t give a flying fuck about any Marvel universe character and I’d me just fine if it all went Chuck Tingle with them all banging each other. So if someone wants to argue that two of the characters are gay, and they are willing to die that hill, I may say I disagree, but I’m not willing to take it farther.

Sometimes I feel like those who write and posts screeds against the shipper slash fanfic and the like are the ones so entrenched in their own stan culture that they don’t even see it. 

Maybe it’s me, but I’m not nearly as embarrassed about shippers writing slash fic and essays and making shippy videos as I am about the “purists” shouting them down. 

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4 hours ago, BlackberryJam said:

I truly don’t know if stans of certain ships are really that insistent that it’s real. I see a lot of essays (meta) being thrown about regarding the validity of ships and ending with something like, “I’ll die on this hill.” 

To me that just means, “I’m emotionally invested in what this ship means to me.” That’s not a bad thing, especially when people are looking for representation in their entertainment media, or even just “someone who feels like I feel.” It’s a damn fucking shame that so many people have to argue for that representation instead of there just being actual media for them to consume.

On the other hand, I don’t give a flying fuck about any Marvel universe character and I’d me just fine if it all went Chuck Tingle with them all banging each other. So if someone wants to argue that two of the characters are gay, and they are willing to die that hill, I may say I disagree, but I’m not willing to take it farther.

Sometimes I feel like those who write and posts screeds against the shipper slash fanfic and the like are the ones so entrenched in their own stan culture that they don’t even see it. 

Maybe it’s me, but I’m not nearly as embarrassed about shippers writing slash fic and essays and making shippy videos as I am about the “purists” shouting them down. 

Thank you. This is basically how I feel as well. Writing fanfics for the characters, essays, etc. should be okay. Bothering actors on socal media is not, after all they usually don't have much of a say about the content anyway. But I'm not sure how often that happens. Bothering the creators is sort of a grey area for me, sometimes I think it is legitimate, but only if it is done in a civil manner. I mean, that should apply for all communication, but sometimes on social media people tend to forget that it seems.

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I will never forget the story of fans who gave explicit slash fic of Fred and George from Harry Potter to the twins that played them in the movie!! I mean how can someone be so fucking delusional to think that was in anyway appropriate!!

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5 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

It's just as fair to focus on the embarrassing shippers as it is on the fanboys who wildly over-react at female leads (*waves at Brie Larson*). 'That's not all of us' goes for the normal fans on both sides of the fence, they've just chosen different things to be annoying about. In some ways, and I don't mean anyone here, because as far as I can tell we're  the normal ones, stans use what may or may not be a genuine desire for equality to cover for their nuttiness, because the stans who have chosen the Stucky hill to die on are only separate from the Reylo crowd in that Kylo Ren was a true creep in every sense of the word and Steve and Bucky aren't. I would argue a tiny bit that some of Steve's fans see him in ways that are a little rose-colored glasses, which has nothing to do with Barnes, but that's not really stanning. I guess.

The Reylo stans were definitely worse, because they were determinedly romanticising abuse and ended up being able to force Disney into changing course on the trilogy, which ended up being disappointing because the character journeys mostly didn't make sense.

Ren spends the first movie agonising over whether he's truly evil enough to carry Vader's legacy, then he cements his choice by killing his father. In the second movie he gaslights and manipulates Rey with lies and starts to believe this connection he has to her is "special" but in the end he takes the opportunity to depose his master and seize control of the New Order.

Then in the third movie... 'I changed my mind. I'm a goodie now!'

Parallel to that, Finn ends up being an afterthought and Poe not even that, because Kylo Ren usurped their roles as Rey's primary ally.

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3 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

The Reylo stans were definitely worse, because they were determinedly romanticising abuse

It surprises me less than I wish it did. I'm old, which means I survived the shipping wars of BTVS twenty years ago when a very popular secondary character got paired up with the lead, and it dragged the entire show into Undead Harlequin Theater territory. The fandom is nowhere near as active as it was back then, but it's active enough that the debate rages on about why Buffy and Angel were just immature puppy love, but Buffy and Spike was an adult relationship. It's legit shocking that a good third of the blame falls on her for how things turned out, even in our allegedly more evolved modern mindset.

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13 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

I will never forget the story of fans who gave explicit slash fic of Fred and George from Harry Potter to the twins that played them in the movie!! I mean how can someone be so fucking delusional to think that was in anyway appropriate!!

I have never understood people doing things like that. I love fanfic. I read it, I write it, I'm all for others having their fun with it, too. It's a very fun hobby :). 

But yeah, not once have I ever, ever thought, "Hey, you know who should read this? The actors/musicians/creators!" Even worse, some send that stuff to the celebrities' spouses. It's like some people have no concept of boundaries whatsoever. Hell, there's celebrities that are comparatively cool with, or at the very least, are aware of and accept that stuff exists, and it's still not good idea to send them any of it. 

And then of course there's the legal risks, if someone doesn't like how they're being portrayed or some creator getting in a battle with a fan over who came up with an idea or other stuff like that. It's just not worth the mess. To say nothing of the presumption that one's stories are apparently so great that the person/character they're writing about would be interested in reading them. Yeah, no.

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John Oliver has a great bit about fanfic, and specifically fanfic involving himself.

I’m just fine with fanfic, understanding plenty of people have no interest reading it. That’s how some writers hone their skills. I mean...Hamilton is Real Person fanfic. Let’s not get judgy about fanfic creators. Yes, some have so much ego they think the actors or original writers want to read their work, but there are always going to be people who take it too far.

My issues with stan culture are more annoyance at people who turn every single discussion about their particular favorites, think that everyone is interested in their favorites and think their favorites do no wrong. But those people are more tiresome than crazy.

But twitter? Wow, Twitter standom can go nuts.

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I love that clip. "'When do I get to have a go?!' Wait, what?" XD. 

I know Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert used to give their own little nods and shout outs to the fandom with their interactions sometimes too. And Stephen's talked about fanfic in a general context before as well :p. 

2 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

My issues with stan culture are more annoyance at people who turn every single discussion about their particular favorites, think that everyone is interested in their favorites and think their favorites do no wrong. But those people are more tiresome than crazy.

But twitter? Wow, Twitter standom can go nuts.

Times like this I'm glad I don't have an account on social media. I've read stuff shared from Twitter and other social media outlets before, but that's about it. I think even under the best of circumstances, places like Twitter, or social media outlets in general, aren't really fandom-friendly areas. And I don't mean "friendly" in terms of people being nice, I mean in terms of being an easy place for fandoms to congregate. I think the way they're set up just makes it harder to have proper conversations and other things of that sort. I much prefer message boards like this, or what LiveJournal and that used to be back in the day, or things of that sort. For me, it's a lot easier to participate in fandom in those kinds of settings. 

Agreed on the whole "turning every discussion into a topic about their favorites" thing, too. I mean, I get obsessive about stuff, and those in my circle can definitely tell when I've become a fan of something or someone :p. But yes, there is a time and place for that kind of stuff. Even if people are interested in the things you like, sometimes all the hype and constant going on about whatever you're a fan of can be just as much of a turnoff. 

And sure, it's great to find other fans or to get people into the things you like,, but yeah, if someone isn't a fan of the things I'm into...okay. That's fine. I get why some of the stuff I like wouldn't appeal to others. And if/when I ever am recommending things to someone, I try and keep that in mind, too. 

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27 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

John Oliver has a great bit about fanfic, and specifically fanfic involving himself.

 

zip, thud.  

Big Brother Lol GIF by MOODMAN

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On the subject of John Oliver, don't forget that the character Chiijohn basically IS a fetish/furry version of John himself (even if John won't admit it). 

A concept which OVERALL definitely confuses John... 

I'm sure there's been Chiijohn fanfic, even before John and his team basically wrote some (albeit a clean version) for that segment above. 

Edited by Kromm
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22 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Times like this I'm glad I don't have an account on social media. I've read stuff shared from Twitter and other social media outlets before, but that's about it. I think even under the best of circumstances, places like Twitter, or social media outlets in general, aren't really fandom-friendly areas. And I don't mean "friendly" in terms of people being nice, I mean in terms of being an easy place for fandoms to congregate. I think the way they're set up just makes it harder to have proper conversations and other things of that sort. I much prefer message boards like this, or what LiveJournal and that used to be back in the day, or things of that sort. For me, it's a lot easier to participate in fandom in those kinds of settings.

Responsible moderators help, people to step in if things are getting too heated to remind everyone to take a breath. Facebook groups have folks who run things and keep it pretty civil, but places like Twitter and such really don't.

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Reading all these thoughts and observations around 'stan culture' and 'shipper culture' reminds me of someone I used to chat to online back when the BBC show Merlin was on air. Just as a reminder, in Merlin we were introduced to the character Morgana as the ward of King Uther, daughter of his dead best friend, who he had raised as his surrogate daughter after she was orphaned; then it was later revealed that Uther had in fact slept with his friend's wife and was Morgana's real father all along. Now, this acquaintance of mine seemed perfectly sensible and rational about most things, but watching S1 of Merlin she saw the affectionate parent-child bond between Uther and Morgana, somehow decided that such a close relationship obviously meant they would end up sleeping together, and then spent the next five years spitting nails at the show for not telling a story about incest between a father and daughter. 🤨 

It was so weird. I've been in fandom for more than 20 years and I've never seen blinkers like it - like, even Supernatural's hardcore Wincest shippers, which was a big thing at the time, even they didn't expect to see their ship made canon the way this woman did. She honestly, sincerely believed that this father and daughter should develop a sexual relationship and bashed the show constantly, for years, for not going there. She seemed completely incapable of comprehending that obviously a family entertainment show aimed at a young audience wasn't going to tell a story about parent-child incest! And her absolute focus on this one relationship rendered her incapable of appreciating any of the actual storylines of the show. The only thing that mattered to her was that her belief in the supposedly inevitable outcome of this one relationship should be vindicated - which of course, it never was.

Shippers and stans, man. Such a warped way of experiencing media!

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26 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Now, this acquaintance of mine seemed perfectly sensible and rational about most things, but watching S1 of Merlin she saw the affectionate parent-child bond between Uther and Morgana, somehow decided that such a close relationship obviously meant they would end up sleeping together, and then spent the next five years spitting nails at the show for not telling a story about incest between a father and daughter. 🤨 

 

Well, incest is a big part of the King Arthur story. Morgana slept with her half-brother Arthur to produce Mordred. So I can see why your friend might think they'd go there. No excuse for getting carried away about it, though.

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33 minutes ago, Anduin said:

Well, incest is a big part of the King Arthur story. Morgana slept with her half-brother Arthur to produce Mordred. So I can see why your friend might think they'd go there. No excuse for getting carried away about it, though.

Not in the version made by the BBC to air at teatime for kids, she didn't! This particular show never pretended or claimed to be anything more than a highly sanitised version of the legend aimed at a young audience, sitting in roughly the same timeslot as Doctor Who.

And the problem wasn't that she considered it a possible outcome - we all like to speculate about possible outcomes of the shows we watch, that's part of the fun. Most of us retain a sense of perspective, understanding that the writers have a story to tell, and can't follow all the possible directions in which they could take that story, so might not always make the choices we'd have preferred, but that's okay, that's valid. The problem was that her relentless focus on this singular outcome, on which she had set her heart, poisoned her entire viewing experience - and that of everyone around her, because it became impossible to discuss any aspect of the show without her going off on one about it. And it's that utter loss of any kind of perspective that I'm talking about here, the way it warps and distorts the viewing experience.

Edited by Llywela
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2 hours ago, Llywela said:

Not in the version made by the BBC to air at teatime for kids, she didn't! This particular show never pretended or claimed to be anything more than a highly sanitised version of the legend aimed at a young audience, sitting in roughly the same timeslot as Doctor Who.

And the problem wasn't that she considered it a possible outcome - we all like to speculate about possible outcomes of the shows we watch, that's part of the fun. Most of us retain a sense of perspective, understanding that the writers have a story to tell, and can't follow all the possible directions in which they could take that story, so might not always make the choices we'd have preferred, but that's okay, that's valid. The problem was that her relentless focus on this singular outcome, on which she had set her heart, poisoned her entire viewing experience - and that of everyone around her, because it became impossible to discuss any aspect of the show without her going off on one about it. And it's that utter loss of any kind of perspective that I'm talking about here, the way it warps and distorts the viewing experience.

Be thankful that you didn't have to have ANY dealings with this rather. .. unconventional individual offline. HOPING for incest in any capacity (including fictional)  is just nasty! 

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