S07.E07: Growing Pains

[Trini]

When a mysterious ice powered enemy frames Frost for a brutal crime, she must find a way to clear her name. Meanwhile, Barry and Iris have a surprise houseguest, and Joe continues to deal with Kristen Kramer (guest star Carmen Moore).

Alexandra La Roche directed the episode written by Sam Chalsen & Jess Carson.

Original airdate 4/13/2021

[cambridgeguy]

The Speed Force thing just continues to be weird.  Iris was uncharacteristically slow to realize that maybe, just maybe, Barry wouldn't be OK with having the Speed Force (who isn't Nora, no matter what everyone seems to think) around all the time. 

Kudos to KF for being the only person to realize that you're still on the hook for your crimes even if you repent.  I'm sure they'll eventually give her a pardon (it worked for Oliver) but in the meantime we'll be subjected to some Arrowverse-style Law and Order shenanigans.

Speaking of Law and Order, what the hell was Joe talking about with the Kramer somehow doing things the wrong way?  She received an anonymous tip, used facial recognition software (ever try that on some Kryptonians?), and put together some pretty solid circumstantial evidence to haul Caitlin in for questioning.  It's not like they ambushed her as she was leaving her apartment.

 

 

[phoenics]

13 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

 

Speaking of Law and Order, what the hell was Joe talking about with the Kramer somehow doing things the wrong way?  She received an anonymous tip, used facial recognition software (ever try that on some Kryptonians?), and put together some pretty solid circumstantial evidence to haul Caitlin in for questioning.  It's not like they ambushed her as she was leaving her apartment.

 

 

It's not like they killed her in a random traffic stop or killed her during questioning.

This show using Joe to draw some kind of BLM parallel to KF's situation is GROSS AF.  Especially given KF actually conspired to kill his own daughter - and if it hadn't been for HR, her conspiracy with Savitar would have succeeded and Iris would be f'n DEAD.  Joe defending her like his life depended on it with no one ever holding KF responsible for the ish she's actually done just ... WTF.  And of course we have a black showrunner signing off on this BS.  I SAID when he was hired that I wasn't sure about him because you just never know and I was fully right.  GROSS GROSS GROSS and RACIST AF.

F this gross problematic show and the writing around KF/Caitlin.  F it so hard.

The CW deserves to get a deluge of angry letters about this episode.

Edited April 14, 2021 by phoenics

[tennisgurl]

Everyone talks about the stuff Frost got up to as a villain like they were just little mistakes that are easily forgivable. Like it’s something along the lines of “I used to shoplift socks” instead of “I once participated in a human trafficking ring.” 

[Lantern7]

Decent episode, especially given the OTP angsting over on Supergirl. Apparently, Central City isn't like GTA, where you can hurt people, then hide behind a dumpster for a spell until the heat dies down. Also, wacky antics with Barry increasingly annoyed at Nora . . . . only instead of a daughter from the future, it's the revived Speed Force taking the shape of his long-dead mother . . . and she/it is trying to be helpful to wacky sitcom degrees.

In retrospect, it was super easy to see that Mark was the only person that could have framed Frost. Also, the "My Two Caits" thing is getting old. Wouldn't there be concern that Caitlin would be affected by stuff that would happen to Frost? or should be just hand-wave that idea away?

[GHScorpiosRule]

Someone please remind me why I’m still watching this show?

The way everyone just fell over themselves and backwards, trying to justify KILLER Frost’s crimes was GROSS. If they wanted a character with her powers who was a good person, they should have made one up! This character is a fucking villain! I don’t read the comics so I don’t know if she’s “good” now, but every Justice League/Justice League Unlimited episode and Justice League animated movie, has portrayed her as the VILLAIN she is.

That said, what is she, 5? With her whining about having to lay low. And Cecile calling her “honey” was ridiculous.

I’m not on board with this New Speed Force now being a sentient being! WTF?! She’s not HUMAN! UGH.

[thuganomics85]

Is Chillblaine really a thing from the comics?  If so, I'm with Barry in that I'm so glad that Cisco wasn't around to hear that.  Hell, they probably did this when he was off screen simply to have an excuse for him not to be responsible for that name...

Not surprised that they were doing everything they could to make Kramer come off like an unreasonable hardass for only having Killer Frost on her mind, but I continue to think that she's really not wrong for wanting KF to be punished for her crimes.  My eyes almost rolled out of my head when someone said "But she doesn't do that anymore!" about Frost, because if that was the case, then why doesn't every criminal just go "My bad, won't happen again!" because apparently that's enough for Team Flash and the police department.  I get the idea of redemption and not letting your past crime/mistakes define you for the rest of your life, but the only way to really start on that is to actually own up to it and be willing to suffer the consequences.  Which, to her credit, apparently Killer Frost is willing to do now, which is nice, but I won't be surprised if the show finds some way to have her get off easy.

Not surprised that Barry wasn't comfortable with having Speed Force Nora tagging along all the time.  It's still kind of weird that everyone else is acting so chill about it, because the Speed Force in human form would be weird enough, but it taking the form of Barry's dead mother would really do a number.  And yet everyone; even Iris; don't seem to realize why that would throw Barry off until now.

After enjoying his story last week, Chester was back to annoying me again.  It's so weird: on the surface level, his style of humor, references, and one-liners are similar to Cisco's, but I just can't enjoy them like I do with the latter's.  Brandon McKnight isn't the problem; I think he's doing well with the material he's got; but there is just something off with the writing here that I can't quite pin down.

I totally can't wait to see the next episode and how badly they handle all of the courtroom stuff.  Will it top Lex's ridiculous trial this year on Supergirl?  If anyone can do it, it would be The Flash!

[Maverick]

 Letting people off the hook because they later "do good" is hardly anything new for the Arrowverse.   Harry Wells, Oliver Queen, Sara Lance and Mick Rory are all murderers.  Black Siren and Leonard Snart were criminals.   Roy Harper committed murder and had it covered up.  Supergirl may be the only show without someone of questionable background being allowed to go free and/or be part of the team.  

[BeautifulFlower]

28 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

 

Not surprised that Barry wasn't comfortable with having Speed Force Nora tagging along all the time.  It's still kind of weird that everyone else is acting so chill about it, because the Speed Force in human form would be weird enough, but it taking the form of Barry's dead mother would really do a number.  And yet everyone; even Iris; don't seem to realize why that would throw Barry off until now.

 

I think maybe because the Speedforce appearing as Nora isn't new to Barry. Has he shown having a problem with it in the past? If not, I can see why the others think he would be fine with it. If Barry was uncomfortable, he would've told Iris especially this. 

 

9 minutes ago, Maverick said:

 Letting people off the hook because they later "do good" is hardly anything new for the Arrowverse.   Harry Wells, Oliver Queen, Sara Lance and Mick Rory are all murderers.  Black Siren and Leonard Snart were criminals.   Roy Harper committed murder and had it covered up.  Supergirl may be the only show without someone of questionable background being allowed to go free and/or be part of the team.  

Batwoman treats Alice like a criminal, so you can add that.

 

45 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Someone please remind me why I’m still watching this show?

The way everyone just fell over themselves and backwards, trying to justify KILLER Frost’s crimes was GROSS. If they wanted a character with her powers who was a good person, they should have made one up! This character is a fucking villain! I don’t read the comics so I don’t know if she’s “good” now, but every Justice League/Justice League Unlimited episode and Justice League animated movie, has portrayed her as the VILLAIN she is.

That said, what is she, 5? With her whining about having to lay low. And Cecile calling her “honey” was ridiculous.

I’m not on board with this New Speed Force now being a sentient being! WTF?! She’s not HUMAN! UGH.

Agreed.

[Trini]

So I can see why they didn't really promote this episode; the entire Frost plot was CRINGE. For MANY reasons. Like, I don't even want to go into it or think about it more.

I will say I was kind of interested in how they were going to introduce Chillblaine, and I might have even been down for an enemies-but-lovers thing with him and Frost; but Panabaker really showed that she only has chemistry with Carlos and Robbie Amell. Oh well.

I still like the suggestion someone made about Frost working for ARGUS in a Suicide Squad -type situation to 'work off' her crimes -- but this isn't an ARGUS or Suicide Squad show, so I can't wait to see how the show wimps out on her punishment when the show comes back in May.

I guess I should appreciate the show attempting to hold Frost accountable, but it's years too late for me. Also they almost ruined "Hot in Herre", so no kudos, Wallace.

What is with them making Allegra sidekick to ... literally anyone else who actually has a story? I thought this character was promising when she was first introduced, but they basically use her as plot spackle. And I know why they are rotating the cast, but it really should have been Cisco instead of Allegra in this Frost plot.

LOL! Even the Speed Force cooks better than Iris! I did like getting some WestAllen loft scenes again, but too bad those were the only scenes with Iris.

It is weird that the Speed force is like a person now. Barry's right to feel uncomfortable, with it looking like his dead mom. But I can see why Iris might want to treat it like a person since she never got to have a relationship with Barry's mother. However, I don't think they should be calling it 'Nora' - it's NOT Nora.

I do like that Michelle Harrison and Grant get to play a different relationship. I like lightning effects for when SF Nora flashes in and out.

I actually thought the 'real' Season 7 was starting off pretty well, but then a Frost-centric episode stalls the progess -- as per usual.

[Starry]

7 hours ago, phoenics said:

It's not like they killed her in a random traffic stop or killed her during questioning.

This show using Joe to draw some kind of BLM parallel to KF's situation is GROSS AF.  Especially given KF actually conspired to kill his own daughter - and if it hadn't been for HR, her conspiracy with Savitar would have succeeded and Iris would be f'n DEAD.  Joe defending her like his life depended on it with no one ever holding KF responsible for the ish she's actually done just ... WTF.  And of course we have a black showrunner signing off on this BS.  I SAID when he was hired that I wasn't sure about him because you just never know and I was fully right.  GROSS GROSS GROSS and RACIST AF.

F this gross problematic show and the writing around KF/Caitlin.  F it so hard.

The CW deserves to get a deluge of angry letters about this episode.

I want to blame Crisis changing some things but this might be good old racist writing and white female privilege.

Isn't one of the goals of the BLM movement to expose how rotten the criminal justice system is? If they wanted to draw some kind of parallel they should have held CCPD and their captain accountable for protecting criminals. I don't care how good Frost is now. She never paid for what she did in the past. Her getting arrested is not equivalent to real life police officers shooting unarmed black people and carrying out executions.

[cambridgeguy]

6 hours ago, Maverick said:

Letting people off the hook because they later "do good" is hardly anything new for the Arrowverse.   Harry Wells, Oliver Queen, Sara Lance and Mick Rory are all murderers.  Black Siren and Leonard Snart were criminals.   Roy Harper committed murder and had it covered up.  Supergirl may be the only show without someone of questionable background being allowed to go free and/or be part of the team.  

Absolutely - both in-universe and out, if people like you then no biggie, it's all forgiven because you're a hero now.  You don't even have to be a Superman-type paragon of goodness either, you can be the Mick Rory/Snart type.  Who can stay mad at such delightful snarkers?  Even assassins like Nyssa are cool!

It even applies to other things.  Barry creating Flashpoint to save his mom - you selfish dick, we hate you.  Sara repeatedly trying to murder Damian Darhk, timeline damage be damned?  Eh, it's all good.

But ultimately I think this episode proved KF is actually kind of dumb.  Think you're the object of a witch hunt?  Maybe tracking down the lead investigator and threatening/attacking her isn't helping your cause.  Your twin is incarcerated?  Yeah, busting them out won't help matters.

Edited April 14, 2021 by cambridgeguy

[Starry]

6 hours ago, Maverick said:

 Letting people off the hook because they later "do good" is hardly anything new for the Arrowverse.   Harry Wells, Oliver Queen, Sara Lance and Mick Rory are all murderers.  Black Siren and Leonard Snart were criminals.   Roy Harper committed murder and had it covered up.  Supergirl may be the only show without someone of questionable background being allowed to go free and/or be part of the team.  

 

5 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Absolutely - both in-universe and out, if people like you then no biggie, it's all forgiven because you're a hero now.  You don't even have to be a Superman-type paragon of goodness either, you can be the Mick Rory/Snart type.  Who can stay mad at such delightful snarkers?  Even assassins like Nyssa are cool!

 

Okay but then don't do a BLM parallel. You can't have it both ways.

Also, Frost was the accomplice in the murder of a team member. She shouldn't be on the team just for that.

At least Ralph was kicked off the force for planting evidence.

[cdnalor]

The only plausible way I see Killer Frost redeeming herself is by sending her on a few Suicide Squad missions.  Survive that and you've earned your pardon.

And "ice healing"?  Is that a thing?

I agree with others that humanising the Speed Force, or any force of nature, just seems silly.  It feels like just an excuse to use the Nora character to give Barry another excuse to mope around.

 

[tennisgurl]

So, I've been trying to figure out why exactly this episode (and Frost in general) rubs me the wrong way. Its not like the Arrowverse isn't absolutely filled to the brim with reformed bad guys who never face any legal consequences for their crimes and are welcomed by the good guys with open arms, and I have been just fine with a lot of those redemption stories and came to really like a lot of those characters, so why is this episode and Frost so annoying to me? I think last night, about halfway through the episode, I figured it out...

I cannot stand all of these "you such a good person now!" speeches and the amount of time everyone spends coddling Frost and acting like her bullshit just never mattered. Not just that she is a better person now, but that all of that stuff was just retroactively not that big of a deal because everyone loves her now. The amount of hand holding she gets is ridiculous, every time she is even remotely inconvenienced or sad its all hands on deck, everyone has to drop everything to help her and hug her and give her more pepe talks, things that no one else really gets. Hardly anyone checked in on Iris while he husband was days from death, but Frost is upset about meeting her/Caitlyn's mom? Everyone get to her apartment stat, bring the ice cream and the tissues! As is how everyone is bending over backwards to act like because she isn't doing crimes lately, that means she retroactively is totally cool. "She doesn't do that anymore!" Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean she didn't do that before! She did a lot of really messed up stuff, including helping to cause the death of a teammate, for the pettiest of reasons, but now not only is that all forgiven, we have to sit through speech after speech about what an awesome person Frost is and how heroic and wonderful and I know this show loves its pep talks, but we have had whole ass subplots dedicated to everyone going on and on about Frost and how great she is. Frost has been a good guy for awhile now, but its like the writers want us to be totally sure that she's the good guy now by reminding us over and over, while Frost herself is still kind of an ass who doesn't really do much for other people outside of fighting with them (which she rather sucks at anyway) and sulking about not being a real girl or doing dumb stuff like running off to find out who is framing her when there is a massive manhunt for her. This whole episode was just everyone wringing their hands about how Frost is so great and so innocent of everything, to the point that even Frost, to her credit, had to point out the very obvious, that she really is guilty of the crimes they are trying to arrest her for, even if she has since reformed, so its hard to act like she is some innocent wrongly accused by the uncaring legal system. I had guessed that they maybe had Frost and Catelyn split so that Frost can turn herself in or can do her own thing for awhile to work off her crimes, and I would be alright with that. Basically having superpowered work release is a pretty good idea for reformed bad guys who do more good to society out fighting evil to sitting in jail, like a less sketchy Suicide Squad.  

Of course, some of that might be because its hard for me to really get into her redemption because her existence as a character is so inconsistent. For a long time she wasn't even really a character, she was just Caitlyn with powers taking a walk on the dark side, it wasn't until later, when the writers didn't want her to get blamed for any of her bad life choices, that they made Killer Frost its own split personality who was just evil and chaotic for shits and giggles until she and Caitlyn started blending a bit (I think? Its been awhile since I saw that part of the show) and she eventually became a good guy when they seemed like more fun. Her motivations have never been all that consistent, so its hard to see a consistent change in her priorities that we can root for. For quite awhile she was just working with random bad guys for fun, then worked with the good guys, then worked for bad guys (leading to the death of HR) then the good guys, its just so hard to track her development sometimes. 

Chillblaine really is an impressively terrible name, Cisco would be appalled. Not too surprising that the only character introduced in this episode is the bad guy, I was hoping it would be something with an actual grudge against Frost and maybe that would make her rethink some things and turn herself in, but no he's just some idiot. 

They really need to figure out what they want to do with Chester and Allegra. They did a lot of good development with Chester last week, but now they seem to be still struggling to find uses for them. Chester just does science/comic relief, especially when Cisco isn't around, while Allegra is everyone's random sidekick. 

This is why you should always talk with your partner before inviting house guests over, especially when said houseguest is a primal force in the universe who happens to take the form of your partners dead mom. Not surprising that this is all really weird to Barry, so I am glad that he and Iris had a talk about it, which was definitely the best part of the show. The whole thing really is weird, but I am curious about where the Speed Force hanging around is going.

[adora721]

On 4/13/2021 at 8:30 PM, Maverick said:

  Supergirl may be the only show without someone of questionable background being allowed to go free and/or be part of the team.  

Umm... Lena Luthor ring a bell? Lena has done some awful things, including human experimentation that led to a death, exposing Kara to Kryptonite, and working to mind control the entire human race. And Lena is back on team Supergirl. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by adora721

[DanaK]

Is there a show reason Cisco seems to always be taking off every few episodes or is the actor doing other projects (you would think The Flash would be in first position for his acting priorities)?

[appositival]

If I was Barry, I would ask the speed force to look like Joe's first wife. That might help Iris to understand why Barry is creeped out.

Alternately she(?) could look like Caitlin with green hair or something. Then we could have a crisis of finite Caitlins.

[Trini]

4 hours ago, DanaK said:

Is there a show reason Cisco seems to always be taking off every few episodes or is the actor doing other projects (you would think The Flash would be in first position for his acting priorities)?

They've been trying to use the minimum amount of cast members lately; partly because of Covid, partly because the cast is so big.

[RobertDeSneero]

I can't shake the feeling that the Speed Force wants to have sex with Barry.

[Lady Calypso]

17 hours ago, DanaK said:

Is there a show reason Cisco seems to always be taking off every few episodes or is the actor doing other projects (you would think The Flash would be in first position for his acting priorities)?

I'm pretty sure it's the actor requesting more episodes off. It's been like this for the last couple of seasons, where Cisco will be missing every few episodes. 

The episode was...something. I just have issues with both of the plots. For the Frost storyline, I do appreciate Frost acknowledging the crimes she's committed and how she can't just do heroic things to redeem herself, and that she actually has to put in more work legally. I like that her past has caught up to her and how she decided to turn herself in. That was good character development for Frost. But still, all the characters trying to protect Frost was frustrating, even to the point of them wanting to harbour a fugitive and commit crimes themselves. I also didn't like Chillblaine that much, especially not as a love interest for Frost. And no, show, playing "Hot in Here" is not going to make me interested in Frost/Mark at all.

The fight scene was decent enough, especially after all the Pep Talks we've had this season so far. But Chester went back to being annoying (at least Cisco knows when it's appropriate to make his references and when to be serious), and Allegra had a weird role this episode.

The Speedforce plot is even more bizarre. First off, the entity should not be turning into a person. That's just odd as hell. Iris being so on board with "Nora" and trying to encourage Barry to accept the Speedforce into his life while calling it "Nora" is even worse. I completely disagree with Iris' actions so far with this plot. She should not be inviting this thing to be living with them, she should not be calling it Nora, and she should not be so encouraging to accept the Speedforce as a human being. I was on Barry's side in being uncomfortable with the Speedforce and I do not like how he's joining Team SpeedNora, because I only see that turning out to be a bad thing. 

And SpeedNora is annoying as hell. The fact that Barry had to tell her at LEAST five different times "no, leave me alone" and she would not listen is enough for me to not like her.

[legaleagle53]

6 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

I can't shake the feeling that the Speed Force wants to have sex with Barry.

Which would be REALLY creepy given that she deliberately took the form of his deceased mother!

[adora721]

16 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

But still, all the characters trying to protect Frost was frustrating, even to the point of them wanting to harbour a fugitive and commit crimes themselves.

Actually, they want to continue harboring a fugitive; they've been doing that for 3 years. As officers of the law, Joe and Barry should be called to account for their part in keeping Killer Frost from justice. Do none of them care that KF helped to murder HR Wells? Is that just not important? Do Barry and Joe not understand that if HR hadn't taken her place, Iris would be dead instead? How willing would they be to harbor the woman who helped murder Iris? The way Joe and Cecile are acting is outrageous! They are officially mammie characters to the nth degree. That the so-called "heroes" are acting this way is an insult. How about we just let every criminal in Iron Heights out if they do some good deeds? What a horrible precedent and message this show is sending. No consequences for guilty criminals. Wow!

Edited April 16, 2021 by adora721

[Spaceman Spiff]

On 4/13/2021 at 9:54 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

Someone please remind me why I’m still watching this show?

I've been slowly losing interest since the second half of last season. I'm giving up now after the bar tender felt the need to take his shirt off because he got a little beer on it. This show has just gotten so dumb.

[Whodunnit]

Killer Frost committed actual crimes including ones that the cops don't know about and that cop lady used more sound evidence (albeit largely circumstantial) to bring KF in than on most cop shows. It's good that KF turned herself in. It's bad that everyone else bent backwards to excuse her bad behavior, but then it's not surprising from a group of 'heroes' who used to keep people locked up indefinitely in an illegal prison or kill them.

Should we start up a thread for the messed up and immoral stuff that people have been forgiven for on this show?

 

 

[immortalfrieza]

On 4/13/2021 at 10:08 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Not surprised that Barry wasn't comfortable with having Speed Force Nora tagging along all the time.  It's still kind of weird that everyone else is acting so chill about it, because the Speed Force in human form would be weird enough, but it taking the form of Barry's dead mother would really do a number.  And yet everyone; even Iris; don't seem to realize why that would throw Barry off until now.

On 4/14/2021 at 12:07 AM, Trini said:

It is weird that the Speed force is like a person now. Barry's right to feel uncomfortable, with it looking like his dead mom. But I can see why Iris might want to treat it like a person since she never got to have a relationship with Barry's mother. However, I don't think they should be calling it 'Nora' - it's NOT Nora.

If I were Barry I might ultimately get along with this Speed Force, but they are NOT Nora and the first thing I would ask it to do is at least have the decency to pick their own unique form rather than wearing my dead mother's face all the time. A dead mother who the SF is basically responsible for allowing the my greatest enemy to kill and change the entire course of my life and did nothing, then deliberately allowed the next Speedster I encountered after to murder her husband and my father on top of that in order to test my resolve.

The Speed Force has burned way too many bridges in Barry's life for him to enjoy that they are around.

Quote

After enjoying his story last week, Chester was back to annoying me again.  It's so weird: on the surface level, his style of humor, references, and one-liners are similar to Cisco's, but I just can't enjoy them like I do with the latter's.  Brandon McKnight isn't the problem; I think he's doing well with the material he's got; but there is just something off with the writing here that I can't quite pin down.

Honestly Chester reminds me of Curtis over on Arrow: the guy who might have been enjoyable to watch at first because he was amusing, but who doesn't know when to knock it off and makes ridiculous jokes at the most inappropriate times when things are supposed to be serious, and not in the "I'm making jokes to distract everybody from how horrible things are" al la Spider-Man way, more the "I actually think I should be making jokes and trying to funny despite the fact that a brain dead chimpanzee could tell this is not the time" way.

On 4/13/2021 at 9:54 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

That said, what is she, 5? With her whining about having to lay low.

The funny thing is, considering Frost didn't exist until 4 years ago yeah, she pretty much is 4 years old. Not that you'd be able to tell.

On 4/13/2021 at 10:41 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

I think maybe because the Speedforce appearing as Nora isn't new to Barry. Has he shown having a problem with it in the past? If not, I can see why the others think he would be fine with it. If Barry was uncomfortable, he would've told Iris especially this.

The one time he actually does seem to take issue with it was when he was being brainwashed by a supervillain, but I get the impression that he's always been pretty weirded out by the whole thing.

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by immortalfrieza

[adora721]

3 hours ago, immortalfrieza said:

The funny thing is, considering Frost didn't exist until 4 years ago yeah, she pretty much is 4 years old. Not that you'd be able to tell.

On 4/13/2021 at 8:41 PM, BeautifulFlower said:

You're forgetting the retcon of season 4 in which they showed that Killer Frost has been in Caitlin since Cait was a child. KF even remembers Cait marrying Ronnie. Therefore, KF is just as old as Caitlin. Even if KF was only four years old, she's proven to be a very dangerous four year old - reckless, pathologically selfish, and lacking in empathy. Even after taking responsibility, she's now petitioning to be let off the hook based on the promo. 

I mentioned on Twitter that if we go by the reasoning that good deeds are enough to justify not sending a guilty criminal to prison, then Barry should let Thawne off the hook for murdering his mom. As faux Harrison Wells, Thawne did a lot of good deeds for 15 years. He provided good jobs at STAR Labs for over a decade before the PA accident. He created new technology and patents that improved lives; those made him rich and made Barry rich when Thwane left it to him. Even after the PA accident, Thawne trained Barry to use his powers, helped Barry catch dangerous metas and saved numerous lives, made the Firestorm matrix device to save Ronnie and Dr. Stein's lives, and provided tech to the CCPD to deal with meta criminals. Even after Thawne was found out, Barry, and later Barry and Nora, went back in time to get help from Thawne. That's a lot more good than Killer Frost had done. So, if Barry (and team Flash) want to let Killer Frost off the hook for 1.5 years of good deeds, then Barry should let Thawne go free the next time they meet. 

[immortalfrieza]

On 4/21/2021 at 1:20 AM, adora721 said:

You're forgetting the retcon of season 4 in which they showed that Killer Frost has been in Caitlin since Cait was a child. KF even remembers Cait marrying Ronnie. Therefore, KF is just as old as Caitlin.

Yep. Retcon, and that was after the other retcon that caused Frost herself to exist in the first place, then the retcon where Cait and Frost were always one person in the first place until OOPS retcon that they're separate personalities but has access to all of Cait's memories and skills until it's retconned that suddenly she doesn't. Even Frost herself never acknowledges the idea that she's been alive and conscious Cait's entire life until the retcon you're talking about where both Caitlin and Frost herself find out about it. The entirety of Killer Frost's character has been a cluster**** of retcons on top of retcons on top of retcons from day 1.

Quote

Even if KF was only four years old, she's proven to be a very dangerous four year old - reckless, pathologically selfish, and lacking in empathy.

So... in other words, a typical four year old. Only this one happens to have subzero cold powers.

Edited April 23, 2021 by immortalfrieza

[adora721]

58 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

The entirety of Killer Frost's character has been a cluster**** of retcons on top of retcons on top of retcons from day 1.

And did you notice the retcon this season of Killer Frost having dark matter in her? This is a retcon from season 5 that highly and frequently emphasized that KF was a DNA meta, not a dark matter meta, which was why KF was immune to Cicada's dagger. I mean, they made an entire plot hinge on the fact that KF was the key to defeating Cicada because she had zero dark matter in her. Now, oops! KF has dark matter in season 7. I suspect that this latest retcon is necessary so that the judge will give her an "unjust sentence" by 

Spoiler

using the meta human cure that targets dark matter on Killer Frost to remove her powers🙄😡!

 

[Starry]

10 hours ago, adora721 said:

And did you notice the retcon this season of Killer Frost having dark matter in her? This is a retcon from season 5 that highly and frequently emphasized that KF was a DNA meta, not a dark matter meta, which was why KF was immune to Cicada's dagger. I mean, they made an entire plot hinge on the fact that KF was the key to defeating Cicada because she had zero dark matter in her. Now, oops! KF has dark matter in season 7. I suspect that this latest retcon is necessary so that the judge will give her an "unjust sentence" by 

  Reveal spoiler

using the meta human cure that targets dark matter on Killer Frost to remove her powers🙄😡!

 

I don't understand why they did that in the first place. Frost wasn't shown to be more effective than anyone else against Cicada and they didn't defeat him with the help of her super special powers. They also retconned it a couple episodes later when they made her afraid that Cisco's dark matter based cure could kill her.

[Trini]

On re-watch:

A couple of easter eggs: Wieringo and Williamson were names mentioned. Joshua Williamson wrote the Flash comics that introduced the new Forces. Mike Wieringo was an artist who illustrated Flash comics in the 90s; and he also co-created Bart Allen/Impulse.

It's still weird that the Speed Force is acting like a omnipotent helicopter parent. I liked that we had some nice WestAllen loft scenes, but they were there to get Barry to accept this new form of the Speed Force -- but he shouldn't, because it is odd and suspicious.

In any case, I like the VFX of SFNora's flashing in and out. It looks like they based it on the VFX of the movie version of the Flash. Her lightning colors are the primaries; red, yellow, and blue.

Well, they cast the right person for Chillblaine, if they wanted a hot guy that can do his own stunts; however, he was NOT selling those villain monologues they gave him. If they bring him back, he needs to be less talky, more punchy.

In theory blinding your opponent with ice is a cool (heh) move, but I feel it shouldn't actually work against an ice meta.

 

On 4/13/2021 at 10:38 PM, phoenics said:

 

This show using Joe to draw some kind of BLM parallel to KF's situation is GROSS AF. 

I know Wallace talked about a story for Joe based on the events last summer, but I don't think this Frost arc is it. He said it's in the middle of the season, so I think it starts in 7B. (That being said, I don't trust the show to handle that well, anyway.)

However...

On 4/13/2021 at 11:08 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Not surprised that they were doing everything they could to make Kramer come off like an unreasonable hardass for only having Killer Frost on her mind, but I continue to think that she's really not wrong for wanting KF to be punished for her crimes. 

It IS gross that they were trying to make Kramer seem like the 'bad guy' here when she was literally just doing her job; and Frost is actually guilty. (And only one count of attempted murder? Come on.)

And the show retconned it, but I'll never forget that Caitlin WAS Killer Frost in Season 3, so Kramer had every right to arrest her. It's so clear that they did the split just to keep Caitlin 'clean'.

But speaking of coddled characters...

On 4/14/2021 at 12:06 PM, tennisgurl said:

... Not just that she is a better person now, but that all of that stuff was just retroactively not that big of a deal because everyone loves her now. The amount of hand holding she gets is ridiculous, every time she is even remotely inconvenienced or sad its all hands on deck, everyone has to drop everything to help her and hug her and give her more pepe talks, things that no one else really gets. ...

It was so cringe-y how much all of Team Flash (that were present) were rallying to protect/defend/excuse Frost for the entire arc. The only other character who gets that treatment is Barry on occasion; but he's the lead hero. It was doubly cringe-y for Joe, since he's in law enforcement, AND his own family has been threatened/attacked by Frost. Nonsensical.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Trini