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Predator and Prey: Assault, harassment, and other aggressions in the entertainment industry


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(edited)
1 hour ago, Shrek said:

What you're saying is that anyone who has ever had sex with anyone besides themselves can at any time be sued, tried & convicted because anyone that they ever had consensual sex with decided to change their mind about it being consensual decades later. 

People who literally (not gray area) rape aren't even hardly sued, tried, & convicted so I don't think you need to be worried.

Edited by peachmangosteen
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(edited)
19 hours ago, Annber03 said:

The whole "your brain doesn't mature until 25" thing has also been proven to be junk science, or at least, it's been completelyl misunderstood, one of the two.

Completely misunderstood. Studies show that the prefrontal cortex can continue to undergo physical changes well into the 20’s and even into the 30’s with some people. 25ish is probably a realistic average but that just means that what a person experiences in their teens and early 20’s is likely to physically alter the brain in a way experiences later in life won’t. 

Using the science to delay adulthood is more about older generations wanting to maintain control than protecting kids, in my opinion. 

There are studies that have found preteen children with more “mature” brains than 25 year olds. 

19 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I also think that if someone of Gaiman's age has a tendency to focus largely on dating people significantly younger than them, that has less to do with genuine connection and more likely to do with the fact that they know younger people will be easier for them to impress, or, if they're more predatory in nature, to manipulate/control. There's a reason they seem to have trouble attracting someone closer to their own age - people closer to their own age have a litlte more life experience and aren't as impressed by their BS as easily.

Exactly. 

Edited by Makai
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(edited)
14 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

Funny, how it's never used to influence drinking age, driving age, gun-purchasing, choosing your future career, joining the army, etc.

Yep. It also funny how the science that shows the substantial decline of brain volume every decade after 40 is also never used to argue for law changes. Some of the people arguing to take away rights of young adults are way more impaired cognitively than the average 20 year old. 

Edited by Makai
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Daughter of Nobel winner Alice Munroe reveals abuse by stepfather, her mother stood by him.

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In a first-person essay published in the Toronto Star on Sunday, Andrea Robin Skinner described how the Nobel Prize-winning short story writer remained in her marriage to second husband Gerald Fremlin even after she learned of the abuse...

In her 20s, Skinner wrote Munro a letter detailing Fremlin's abuse, but she said she received no sympathy from her mother.

"I ... was overwhelmed by her sense of injury to herself," Skinner wrote in the Star. "She believed my father had made us keep the secret in order to humiliate her. She then told me about other children Fremlin had 'friendships' with, emphasizing her own sense that she, personally, had been betrayed. Did she realize she was speaking to a victim and that I was her child? If she did, I couldn't feel it."

She reported the abuse to police in 2005 and Fremlin ultimately pleaded guilty to a charge of indecent assault.

But, Munro remained with Fremlin until he died in 2013. Munro said she had been "told too late" about the abuse, that she loved him too much to leave him and that she couldn't be expected to "deny her own needs," Skinner wrote in the Star.

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On 7/6/2024 at 9:25 PM, Zella said:

I never really had an opinion on Gaiman, despite having a lot of friends who were really avid fans. I liked the one book of his I read, but I never was interested in following him or his career. But I remember being super weirded out back during the initial COVID lockdowns when he suddenly just left his family in New Zealand and returned to the UK. I remember at the time a lot of people throwing his wife under the bus, but I always felt that, regardless of what was going on, that didn't reflect well on him. Had no idea about the accusations of sleeping with fans, but he really does sound like a piece of work. 

I was also pretty neutral on Gaiman until I found out he was married to Amanda Palmer, someone who is awful in her own way. Disappointed but not surprised to find out someone who hooked up with, married, and procreated with her after she pranked another partner by pretending to commit suicide, recorded his reaction, and then used that audio in a song is a predator. 

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2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I was also pretty neutral on Gaiman until I found out he was married to Amanda Palmer, someone who is awful in her own way. Disappointed but not surprised to find out someone who hooked up with, married, and procreated with her after she pranked another partner by pretending to commit suicide, recorded his reaction, and then used that audio in a song is a predator. 

I had no idea who Amanda Palmer was so I looked her up.  So now I'm going to go back to not knowing who she is.  

I used to think I was just getting older when I would I hear about people and had never heard of them.  I now think maybe I just don't need to know who those people are. 

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2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I was also pretty neutral on Gaiman until I found out he was married to Amanda Palmer, someone who is awful in her own way. Disappointed but not surprised to find out someone who hooked up with, married, and procreated with her after she pranked another partner by pretending to commit suicide, recorded his reaction, and then used that audio in a song is a predator. 

Yikes that's pretty unhinged! 

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9 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Having more sympathy for a fictional girl that was molested than your own daughter who was molested by your own husband is just mind-blowing. As is blaming misogyny for your crappy parenting.

But, Munro remained with Fremlin until he died in 2013. Munro said she had been "told too late" about the abuse, that she loved him too much to leave him and that she couldn't be expected to "deny her own needs," Skinner wrote in the Star.

Part of being a parent is putting your child's needs first.  Clearly Munro never did that.

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(edited)
2 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

But, Munro remained with Fremlin until he died in 2013. Munro said she had been "told too late" about the abuse, that she loved him too much to leave him and that she couldn't be expected to "deny her own needs," Skinner wrote in the Star.

Part of being a parent is putting your child's needs first.  Clearly Munro never did that.

Exactly. “Told too late”?! That’s a load of horseshit. Uh, in this case, better late than never!

I know it sucks to have someone you love betray you, but why on God’s Green Earth would you want to stay with someone that hurt your child? No amount of mental gymnastics in the world could ever make that okay. I would rather be heartbroken but still be able to look myself in the mirror than be so deep in denial that I’d commit to a lie for the rest of my life.

Edited by Spartan Girl
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1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

I know it sucks to have someone you love betray you, but why on God’s Green Earth would you want to stay with someone that hurt your child? No amount of mental gymnastics in the world could ever make that okay. I would rather be heartbroken but still be able to look myself in the mirror than be so deep in denial that I’d commit to a lie for the rest of my life.

It reads to me like she loved her husband more than her daughter which is heartbreaking. I can't imagine finding out someone I loved would do such a thing, but I also can't imagine loving someone who abused my child. I think that knowledge would supersede any love I felt, which would be replaced by the most profound sense of betrayal.

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6 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I can't imagine finding out someone I loved would do such a thing, but I also can't imagine loving someone who abused my child. I think that knowledge would supersede any love I felt, which would be replaced by the most profound sense of betrayal.

This reminds me of an old TV movie called Something About Amelia which is about a father molesting his daughter.  Maybe it was a product of its time but the movie ends with the mother forgiving her husband and them trying to reunite as a family.  Even when I saw it back then I thought "what the hell".

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1 hour ago, Dimity said:

This reminds me of an old TV movie called Something About Amelia which is about a father molesting his daughter.  Maybe it was a product of its time but the movie ends with the mother forgiving her husband and them trying to reunite as a family.  Even when I saw it back then I thought "what the hell".

I remember that movie.   Ted Danson played the father.

Some people just aren't meant to be parents.  Years ago Oprah did a show about hypothetical situations and one of them was if you were on a boat that capsized and you could only save one person, your spouse or your child who would you save.  Everyone said their child except for one woman who said she would save her husband.  Her reason was you can always have another child but do you know how hard it is to find a husband.

As repulsive as I find it there are many women who overlook the horrific things their husbands do because they don't want to have to find another one.  

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3 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

It reads to me like she loved her husband more than her daughter which is heartbreaking. I can't imagine finding out someone I loved would do such a thing, but I also can't imagine loving someone who abused my child. I think that knowledge would supersede any love I felt, which would be replaced by the most profound sense of betrayal.

And murderous rage.

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5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Exactly. “Told too late”?! That’s a load of horseshit. Uh, in this case, better late than never!

I know it sucks to have someone you love betray you, but why on God’s Green Earth would you want to stay with someone that hurt your child? No amount of mental gymnastics in the world could ever make that okay. I would rather be heartbroken but still be able to look myself in the mirror than be so deep in denial that I’d commit to a lie for the rest of my life.

And let's not overlook that Ms. Munroe was by NO means financially dependent on her 2nd husband.  oh and let's not overlook  this WAS her 2nd husband since she had divorced a Mr. Jim Munroe- the poor daughter's actual father. I don't know WHY Ms. Munroe divorced him but whatever the grounds,  it seems that he had NOT done unspeakable evil atrocities to their offspring yet she HAD had the capacity to get a divorce before she married her 2nd husband so I don't buy that she had no choice but to stay with such a heinous monster even AFTER her daughter confronted her about what he had done!

 

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(edited)

The more I read, the worse it gets. She was failed by every significant adult in her life. Here is a quote from the Toronto Star. 

Quote

When Andrea returned to her father’s house at the end of the summer, she confided in her stepbrother, Andrew, about what Gerry had done. He encouraged her to tell his mother, Carole, which she did. Carole then told Jim Munro. Jim didn’t confront Alice; he didn’t speak with Andrea. He instructed Andrea’s sisters not to tell their mother, either.

The next summer, in 1977, Andrea went back to Clinton. “I told her she didn’t have to go,” says Carole. “But she wanted to spend time with her mother.” This time, though, Sheila accompanied her, at Jim’s urging.

“I don’t remember the exact conversation, but my father told me that Andrea had been molested, or something to that effect,” says Sheila. “There wasn’t a lot of detail about what happened to her.”

He also told her that Andrea wanted to go back again, and they were allowing it. In a sort of “covert operation,” Sheila was there “to make sure (Andrea) was never alone with Gerry. That was my father’s wishes.”

It was an impossible task.

Edited by Makai
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My thought was this is like Marion Zimmer Bradley all over again. Which I refuse to link to if you don't know what I'm referencing. And she was beloved for having woman centered novels and depicting loving gay couples long before it was acceptable. But she was really a monster underneath. 

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4 hours ago, Vermicious Knid said:

My thought was this is like Marion Zimmer Bradley all over again. Which I refuse to link to if you don't know what I'm referencing. And she was beloved for having woman centered novels and depicting loving gay couples long before it was acceptable. But she was really a monster underneath. 

I didn't know who she was before I read your post. OMG. What a disgusting and horrifying woman. She and that husband deserved to be buried under a prison.

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DA aims to file new charges against Weinstein by fall.

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Blumberg said prosecutors could realistically go to trial in November against Weinstein, whose downfall over similar claims became a symbol of the #MeToo movement.

Some of the alleged victims had been not willing to participate in the legal process at the time of Weinstein’s first trial, the prosecutor said. “As we said in 2020, some women were not ready. These women are now ready,” Blumberg said.

 

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Producer Irv Gotti sued for alleged sexual assault and abuse

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The lawsuit was first reported Tuesday by The Miami New Times and claims the plaintiff, who remains anonymous, first met the music mogul through a mutual friend at a poker tournament in 2020. Gotti, whose real name is Irving Domingo Lorenzo Jr., allegedly went on to invite her to Saint Martin.

“After flying her to Saint Martin, Gotti coerced Plaintiff into having sex with him,” the 4-page filing alleges. “Gotti specifically threatened Plaintiff that he would send her home if she did not comply … and due to his power and influences in the music world, she complied.”

The lawsuit claims Gotti “demanded” sexual acts from the plaintiff throughout their alleged two-year relationship, saying he “often berated and scolded” her and, in January 2022, “forced her to perform oral sex on him in an elevator” at the Four Seasons Hotel Miami.

 

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Do you want to reset the "days since TV footage of a historic event was presented by a predator" counter or shall I?

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21 hours ago, Palimelon said:

From the article:

 

 he did not physically force the girl to have sex with him. He wrote: “The absence of coercion (other than the age difference) is also evident from the fact that the British court acquitted him of grooming. It was not his intention to ‘persuade her’ into sexual acts.

So what then?  She was asking for it?  She seduced him?  The girl was 12 yrs old! That alone is reason enough to label him a sex offender.

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3 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

The girl was 12 yrs old! That alone is reason enough to label him a sex offender.

Not in the Netherlands, apparently, which is I think the point they were trying to make. (Not saying I agree with the Netherlands's laws.)

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So I think this part may explain a little of the why, not that I agree with the Dutch in any way shape or form, this is more for information than anything else. What you get from the information is up to you. Personally I wouldn't have been too upset if they had locked him up & thrown away the key.

This is taken from the article mentioned above,

Quote

But why the muted reaction in the Netherlands? One legal distinction is that Van de Velde is unlikely to have been convicted of rape had he stood trial in the Netherlands rather than England. In England, sex with a 12-year-old is rape, regardless of the circumstances: an under-16 cannot legally consent. But after he was extradited to the Netherlands, having serving almost a year of his prison sentence, he was released after less than a month. Under Dutch law, his crime was deemed to be the lesser offence of ontucht, sexual acts that violate social-ethical norms.

 

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(edited)
10 hours ago, Shrek said:

So I think this part may explain a little of the why, not that I agree with the Dutch in any way shape or form, this is more for information than anything else. What you get from the information is up to you. Personally I wouldn't have been too upset if they had locked him up & thrown away the key.

This is taken from the article mentioned above,

 

After reading the article I did some research and the writer is flat out lying about the law. Which is a little weird considered she calls herself a feminist activist. The age of consent in the Netherlands is 16, so their law is exactly the same as England. It was 12 for the disturbingly long time but it has been 16 for 22 years. 

Also, the article says that it wouldn’t be considered rape there because there was no force, threats or coercion (although I argue giving alcohol to a 12 year old is coercion) but that law just changed this month after years of campaigning by activists and survivor groups. 

The writer may be correct when it comes to real world implementation of the law but it is seems disingenuous to paint it as a huge difference between Dutch and English law. Which I’m sure is why it was published as an op-ed. 

Edited by Makai
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Regardless of the law, it's still about a 19 year old who hooked up with a 12 year old, which is pretty gross no matter what country it happened in or what the laws in either country were/are. And the idea of having a convicted rapist representing your country at the Olympics can be seen as problematic by many, even if they person did his time.

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I have a lurkers account on tumblr (to talk to an online friend) and follow Neil Gaiman. He was totally appropriate as near as I could tell, btw.  I don’t lurk a lot but I haven’t seen anything from him since the accusations. 

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On 8/2/2024 at 3:47 AM, Affogato said:

I have a lurkers account on tumblr (to talk to an online friend) and follow Neil Gaiman. He was totally appropriate as near as I could tell, btw.  I don’t lurk a lot but I haven’t seen anything from him since the accusations. 

I followed him too, he hasn't commented since then, which seems as the right choice. Also, there are more women coming forward now. I hate this. I knew one day it would eventually be somebody I liked, but I still hate it so much.

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9 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I followed him too, he hasn't commented since then, which seems as the right choice. Also, there are more women coming forward now. I hate this. I knew one day it would eventually be somebody I liked, but I still hate it so much.

first time GIF

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On 8/1/2024 at 8:47 PM, Affogato said:

I have a lurkers account on tumblr (to talk to an online friend) and follow Neil Gaiman. He was totally appropriate as near as I could tell, btw.  I don’t lurk a lot but I haven’t seen anything from him since the accusations. 

Given that it seems more women are coming forward, how persuasive are the charges? "More women" doesn't necessarily mean "more evidence that he crossed an actionable line," or "more reason to cancel him" but it could mean those things. Does it change your view of the situation?

I'm asking basically because I haven't been following any of this since the initial accusation--and even regarding that, I don't know anything about the initial accusation other than it was made. 

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51 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

Given that it seems more women are coming forward, how persuasive are the charges? "More women" doesn't necessarily mean "more evidence that he crossed an actionable line," or "more reason to cancel him" but it could mean those things. Does it change your view of the situation?

I'm asking basically because I haven't been following any of this since the initial accusation--and even regarding that, I don't know anything about the initial accusation other than it was made. 

The original charges

https://apple.news/AFOGzY4p9STmfbYFntzQ0bA

Here is an article focussing on Amanda Palmer:

https://apple.news/AF_PuDCr5SUymW2K88ns--Q

the articles references a podcast where the original incidents were made public.
 

 I couldn’t find newer articles that aren’t behind a paywall

i would bet on narcissist type behavior, myself, and that maybe he was so full of himself at the time of the acts, full of what he wanted and  needed, that he was unable to see the needs of others. anyway, that would be my working theory, in which case we are likely to hear more of the same from people. I don’t think it invalidates his work, myself, bit so many people got support from his work that it will be hard and impossible for them to get around it, since it speaks not only to their tastes, but to their identities.

 

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1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

Given that it seems more women are coming forward, how persuasive are the charges? "More women" doesn't necessarily mean "more evidence that he crossed an actionable line," or "more reason to cancel him" but it could mean those things. Does it change your view of the situation?

I'm asking basically because I haven't been following any of this since the initial accusation--and even regarding that, I don't know anything about the initial accusation other than it was made. 

The initial news were somewhat questionable because it was made on a terf podcast and as I understand (I only read about it from second-hand sources), the reporters were making some sweeping statements denouncing any relationship with age difference, or any BDSM-like relationship as unacceptable. So, it's understandable that we would take it with a grain of salt. The follow-up accusations don't have these elements and seem to point to a pattern of behavior. 

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39 minutes ago, Affogato said:

The original charges

https://apple.news/AFOGzY4p9STmfbYFntzQ0bA

Here is an article focussing on Amanda Palmer:

https://apple.news/AF_PuDCr5SUymW2K88ns--Q

the articles references a podcast where the original incidents were made public.
 

 I couldn’t find newer articles that aren’t behind a paywall

i would bet on narcissist type behavior, myself, and that maybe he was so full of himself at the time of the acts, full of what he wanted and  needed, that he was unable to see the needs of others. anyway, that would be my working theory, in which case we are likely to hear more of the same from people. I don’t think it invalidates his work, myself, bit so many people got support from his work that it will be hard and impossible for them to get around it, since it speaks not only to their tastes, but to their identities.

 

On the other hand 

https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-news/neil-gaiman-two-more-women-allege-sexual-assault-1235073080/

which gets weirder and less tasteful. 
 

this such is so common. 

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(edited)
2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

The details in this story make it sound credible to me.

 

Yeah. I am sad that someone who seemed like a nice guy, not so much. I think they all sound credible, but the first two sounded like they might have been … well, nothing excuses something like this. 

Edited by Affogato
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10 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

The initial news were somewhat questionable because it was made on a terf podcast and as I understand (I only read about it from second-hand sources), the reporters were making some sweeping statements denouncing any relationship with age difference, or any BDSM-like relationship as unacceptable. So, it's understandable that we would take it with a grain of salt. The follow-up accusations don't have these elements and seem to point to a pattern of behavior. 

Because of the terf allegation I didn’t want to listen to the podcast but I did read the transcripts of the episodes covering the initial two allegations. It’s not accurate that they made sweeping statements denouncing any relationship with an age gap difference or BDSM-like relationships. I would seriously doubt the credibility of any second-hand sources who came away with that take. 

My biggest takeaway from what I read was the similarity between the accusations.

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(edited)

I always thought people focused too much on criticizing the outlet publishing the women's claims, especially after Gaiman's "denial" came out. Perhaps some or everyone at the outlet sucks but Gaiman's denial basically confirmed most of their accounts.  Even if you go by what he admits to in his denial, it paints him as a predatory creep. 

Edited by Irlandesa
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10 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I always thought people focused too much on criticizing the outlet publishing the women's claims, especially after Gaiman's "denial" came out. Perhaps some or everyone at the outlet sucks but Gaiman's denial basically confirmed most of their accounts.  Even if you go by what he admits to in his denial, it paints him as a predatory creep. 

If the initial encounter was consensual, difficulty with social cues could be a defense, although weak in a 60 year old man, even one recently diagnosed with autism. The woodstock story is way past that. 

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21 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I always thought people focused too much on criticizing the outlet publishing the women's claims, especially after Gaiman's "denial" came out. Perhaps some or everyone at the outlet sucks but Gaiman's denial basically confirmed most of their accounts.  Even if you go by what he admits to in his denial, it paints him as a predatory creep. 

I agree. Gaiman’s defense is so problematic that he effectively confirms that he is exactly what the women accuse him of being. 

A huge takeaway from the stories is how manipulative he is based on his own words. When he got word that the nanny was saying she wasn’t entirely comfortable with what happened he messaged her about how upset and suicidal he was so she ended up reassuring him that it was consensual, “even though it began questionably”. He got her to talk to his therapist to confirm that it was totally consensual. He offered to pay six months of her rent if she would sign a backdated NDA and he but all of it in writing. 

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NCIS: Los Angeles guest star Gabriel Olds arrested on sexual assault charges.

"On July 19, the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office charged Olds with seven felony sexual assault charges, and the Los Angeles Superior Court subsequently issued a warrant for his arrest, which was fulfilled on Aug. 7, when investigators arrested Olds.

Olds is an actor and writer with credits dating back to the early '90s. He appeared in many of producer Dick Wolf's procedural shows, and every one of CBS' NCIS shows including NCIS, NCIS: Los Angeles, and NCIS: New Orleans. He portrayed televangelist Pat Robertson in The Eyes of Tammy Faye alongside Jessica Chastain, who won an Oscar for the titular role.

According to police, Olds boasted about his success in the film industry to charm women on dating apps and lure them into a false sense of security before turning violent. Police have provided contact information for Det. Hopkins, seeking anyone else who may have information to share about Olds' alleged crimes."

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(edited)
15 hours ago, Palimelon said:

NCIS: Los Angeles guest star Gabriel Olds arrested on sexual assault charges.

"On July 19, the Los Angeles County District Attorney's office charged Olds with seven felony sexual assault charges, and the Los Angeles Superior Court subsequently issued a warrant for his arrest, which was fulfilled on Aug. 7, when investigators arrested Olds.

Wow! I recently watched the episode Pride and Joy on Law and Order and wondered what happened to the actor who played the

Spoiler

murderer

son. Now I know.

Edited by MissAlmond
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1 hour ago, MissAlmond said:

Wow! I recently watched the episode Pride and Joy on Law and Order and wondered what happened to the actor who played the

  Hide contents

murderer

son. Now I know.

Shit, that was him?! Huh. Once again art imitates life.

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Michael Madsen was arrested this weekend for domestic battery (against his wife).  I have it in my head that there was a previous allegation of either domestic abuse or sexual harassment, many years ago, but none of the articles I checked mention it, so I may be mixing him up with another Hollywood asshole.

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