Predator and Prey: Assault, harassment, and other aggressions in the entertainment industry

[Ms Blue Jay]

4 hours ago, rcc said:

If a child has talent and wants to act and or sing there is nothing wrong in pursuing it. Parents and agents should advocate for them. Their money needs to be invested for their future. If they want out, then they should be out. 

In a perfect world.  In this real world, children singing or performing in school for free, I understand.  In this real world there is absolutely no control and no way to prevent parents from becoming greedy, addicted, and money hungry.  It is extremely rare that child actors don't end up on drugs, killing themselves, and/or abused.  I don't know how anyone with a conscience could send them into that life.

Having children work for money also means they do not have the chance to simply just as exist as children and have a childhood.  And what about babies?  They have no say in the matter yet parents put them into commercials and on shows/in movies.  At what age are you saying the children know what they're getting into?  3?  8?  13?  These are not informed decisions. There is no way a child understands the world and what it will do to them and how it will spit them out after.

I also don't see how anyone could develop healthily when your brain is still forming and you receive that kind of attention and lose it when you become an adult.

If parents want to advocate for their own children in my opinion I do not thinking working to earn a living is the answer, quite the opposite.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Blergh]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Even if the 100% of a child actor's money is going into long term savings, and even if their family is independently wealthy so they don't need the money, and even if no one involved in the production is a creepy predator, if a kid is a lead or major character, it could still be a situation where a kid could feel responsible for the livelihood of everyone involved in a production. And that on its own would be a messed up situation.

YEP! Even when she was a toddler who'd barely been house trained, Peggy-Jean Montgomery (1918-2020) knew that her parents,their servants, the studio and all its employees were dependent on HER to bring in the bacon and, later in life, as Diana Serra Cary, she'd recall how as a child she believed that ALL tiny children were supposed to provide for their parents' livelihood and that any who were just playing were somehow derelict in their duties to their parents! Yes, although she actually liked the work and mostly liked the adult fellow performers and crew, she knew it WAS work and was burdened by that responsibility from toddlerhood. Thankfully, as she grew up (and found out that her parents had blown virtually EVERY dime of the 1920's millions$ that she had earned for them), Mrs. Cary wound up being one of the earliest if not one or the most tenacious advocates for the protection of child performers for the bulk of her long life!

[ouinason]

Just off the top, parents should not be allowed to act in any "talent management" capacity, ever. 

If your kid wants to act, then they need to have outside management, accountants and agents.  You need to stay out of it on a financial level and only be in it on a caregiver level.  Period.  Parents should not have access to their children's pay beyond maybe a small amount to offset travel costs.  If you can't afford to be on set with your kid all the time, there should be a babysitter paid by the trust of your child or the production.  If you can't make it work, then don't do it at all.

Sure, parents may feel that their children will be safer with them around, but it's not actually true, and if they can't back off, then they need to not have their children in that environment at all.

[Ms Blue Jay]

It's already difficult for parents to put their trust in daycares, babysitters, coaches, etc.  I don't know how parents can put their trust into entities that really don't give a fuck whether children live or die - Hollywood and television productions, for example.  Those entities care about making money and getting/keeping ratings. That's the bottom line.  I do not see how a child's well-being would even remotely be a priority. But, as I said, I think there is no way that it works.

Even Dan Schneider, who wouldn't admit the sexual stuff, fully admitted to being abusive.  Children are obviously even more vulnerable to this than adults and it is so easy to manipulate a child into not telling another adult about it.  These are the people you want around kids?  They (Hollywood) cares about money and power, not children....  

Edited August 7, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[andromeda331]

13 hours ago, Dani said:

I don’t know a ton about producing but it seems like it’s not unusual for people to get into it without producing experience. The number of actors who go straight from acting to producing is really high. Actors can make very good producers because they have more empathy for the actors. Clearly that not what happened here but I can’t fault Nickelodeon for hiring him when he is a good writer and had good ideas. I can and do fault them for nearly everything else. 

It’s infuriating but I don’t find it puzzling. They are a network designed to make money off of kids. Even if they were trying to be responsible their very purpose is often going to be at odds with the well being of the child actors. It also extremely unlikely that anyone involved was complaining officially in the beginning. These kids are generally not going to have the resources available to them to speak out or even the knowledge to understand why something makes them uncomfortable.

This story reminds me a lot of the Wil Wheaton one in that the kids often don’t can’t voice their discomfort until they are older and the people close it them are clueless. They often don’t even understand that abuse was abuse at the time. To me it shows just how important conversation about boundaries and consent are and that adults in charge and parents need to pay more attention to the subtle signs of stress. 

I don't either. It's been shown over and over how many adults do not give a damn whether their producer, actor, singer or team doctor is abusing kids or women for that matter. As long as he's making them all money or the kids are still making them all money. They do not care. Each time a new producer, singer, actor etc. are reveal. There are always so many who knew about it.  There are kids who told their agents, higher ups or parents. Nothing happened. They also have nothing to fear. If they went to the police nothing happened. The police or DA will drop the case or contact the child molester and believe everything he says. No matter how many go to the police. Only a few ever go to jail and all the enablers never go to jail.

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

In a perfect world.  In this real world, children singing or performing in school for free, I understand.  In this real world there is absolutely no control and no way to prevent parents from becoming greedy, addicted, and money hungry.  It is extremely rare that child actors don't end up on drugs, killing themselves, and/or abused.  I don't know how anyone with a conscience could send them into that life.

Having children work for money also means they do not have the chance to simply just as exist as children and have a childhood.  And what about babies?  They have no say in the matter yet parents put them into commercials and on shows/in movies.  At what age are you saying the children know what they're getting into?  3?  8?  13?  These are not informed decisions. There is no way a child understands the world and what it will do to them and how it will spit them out after.

I also don't see how anyone could develop healthily when your brain is still forming and you receive that kind of attention and lose it when you become an adult.

If parents want to advocate for their own children in my opinion I do not thinking working to earn a living is the answer, quite the opposite.

This I do agree with. I would love to extend it to reality shows and YouTube. Their kids don't have any say in anything. How many babies and toddlers have been filmed on both with diaper blow outs and other things? Are they happy about it now? Do they know thousands to millons of people seen that? When their older are they going to be thrilled with it? Those decisions are usually made by their parents who don't care. Duggars had no problem filming so many humiliating or embarassing situations. The kids had no say because their parents were controlling assholes who seem to get a thrill out of it especially JB. The various quints and quads babies on TLC having their embarrassing moments film. We see how it's turned out for child stars and that's even with the Coogan law. Reality kids and ones on YouTube don't have anything. There needs to be a line but where? Who in forces it that actually will in force it? 

Edited August 7, 2022 by andromeda331

[Ms Blue Jay]

Quote

I don't either. It's been shown over and over how many adults do not give a damn whether their producer, actor, singer or team doctor is abusing kids or women for that matter. As long as he's making them all money or the kids are still making them all money. They do not care. Each time a new producer, singer, actor etc. are reveal. There are always so many who knew about it.  There are kids who told their agents, higher ups or parents. Nothing happened. They also have nothing to fear. If they went to the police nothing happened. The police or DA will drop the case or contact the child molester and believe everything he says. No matter how many go to the police. Only a few ever go to jail and all the enablers never go to jail.

Exactly!  Children do not have the rights that adults do which means that they should be protected even more than adults! There are so few people and entities out there advocating for children! There are many people and entities looking to take advantage of them or profit off them in some way!   They are vulnerable!  Objectively.

6 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

This I do agree with. I would love to extend it to reality shows and YouTube. Their kids don't have any say in anything. How many babies and toddlers have been filled on both with diaper blow outs and other things? Are they happy about it now? Do they know thousands to millons of people seen that? When their older are they going to be thrilled with it? Those decisions are usually made by their parents who don't care. Duggars had no problem filming so many humiliating or embarassing situations. The kids had no say because their parents were controlling assholes who seem to get a thrill out of it especially JB. The various quints and quads babies on TLC having their embarrassing moments film. We see how it's turned out for child stars and that's even with the Coogan law. Reality kids and ones on YouTube don't have anything. There needs to be a line but where? Who in forces it that actually will in force it? 

Yes, children cannot consent to this stuff and it's not fair.  Reminds me of that video of when a mother didn't know her camera was on and she was pushing the kid trying to manipulate him into crying for the cameras.  Shudder.  It's so creepy.

https://www.newsweek.com/jordan-cheyenne-mom-youtube-son-dog-fake-tears-crying-viral-1670266#:~:text=News-,Video of YouTuber Jordan Cheyenne Forcing Her,Cry Resurfaces%2C Sparks Fresh Backlash&text=A video of YouTube vlogger,while crying has gone viral.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

6 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Who in forces it that actually will in force it? 

Nobody is looking out for these children.   It's the wild west!   That's why abusers prey on them!  Parents can do whatever they want to their kids and they know it!

Edited August 7, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[andromeda331]

10 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Exactly!  Children do not have the rights that adults do which means that they should be protected even more than adults! There are so few people and entities out there advocating for children! There are many people and entities looking to take advantage of them or profit off them in some way!   They are vulnerable!  Objectively.

Yes, children cannot consent to this stuff and it's not fair.  Reminds me of that video of when a mother didn't know her camera was on and she was pushing the kid trying to manipulate him into crying for the cameras.  Shudder.  It's so creepy.

https://www.newsweek.com/jordan-cheyenne-mom-youtube-son-dog-fake-tears-crying-viral-1670266#:~:text=News-,Video of YouTuber Jordan Cheyenne Forcing Her,Cry Resurfaces%2C Sparks Fresh Backlash&text=A video of YouTube vlogger,while crying has gone viral.

I remember when that video surfaced. I wondered and still do how many other kids are being forced to do the same thing. Kids deserve better. 

[Annber03]

Like I've said before, adults love to complain all the time about kids being online constantly nowadays, and I'm sitting here thinking, okay, but a( they've grown up in a world where they've never known a life online, and b) a lot of them have been online since they were babies/toddlers, because their parents would plaster videos and images of them all over the internet, without any regard for their safety or whether they'd want stuff like that broadcast to millions in the first place.

And then the kids go through some kind of downward spiral once they hit their teens and people act all shocked and wonder HOW THIS COULD'VE HAPPENED and complain about how the kids are obnoxious and bratty and spoiled and whatnot. 

No. Don't yell at the kids, they're young, they're going to do stupid, irresponsible things at some point. Instead, yell at the adults who've shoved them into this world where every facet of their lives is being broadcast to the public at large from a young age, and with no attempt to teach them things like internet safety, or how to safely interact with adults in general, and learning who to trust and who to be wary of, or how to handle being in the media spotlight, or things like that. It's their responsibility to teach children and teenagers how to behave in society, and if the kids don't have good role models around them, people shouldn't be surprised when things turn out badly for all involved. 

[andromeda331]

14 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Like I've said before, adults love to complain all the time about kids being online constantly nowadays, and I'm sitting here thinking, okay, but a( they've grown up in a world where they've never known a life online, and b) a lot of them have been online since they were babies/toddlers, because their parents would plaster videos and images of them all over the internet, without any regard for their safety or whether they'd want stuff like that broadcast to millions in the first place.

And then the kids go through some kind of downward spiral once they hit their teens and people act all shocked and wonder HOW THIS COULD'VE HAPPENED and complain about how the kids are obnoxious and bratty and spoiled and whatnot. 

No. Don't yell at the kids, they're young, they're going to do stupid, irresponsible things at some point. Instead, yell at the adults who've shoved them into this world where every facet of their lives is being broadcast to the public at large from a young age, and with no attempt to teach them things like internet safety, or how to safely interact with adults in general, and learning who to trust and who to be wary of, or how to handle being in the media spotlight, or things like that. It's their responsibility to teach children and teenagers how to behave in society, and if the kids don't have good role models around them, people shouldn't be surprised when things turn out badly for all involved. 

You just reminded me of the Dionne quintuplets. Taken from their parents for their "safety" in 1935 and put on display to for people who visited. So much money made off them that they never saw. It took years before people started to realize that was wrong and should be return to their parents. Of course the irony they were actually right about their parents. At least their father who molested them. 

[Annber03]

Oh, wow, I'd never heard that story. How horrible. Those poor kids. 

[andromeda331]

40 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Oh, wow, I'd never heard that story. How horrible. Those poor kids. 

Here's a link. It was in Canada.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionne_quintuplets

[Danielg342]

I feel especially bad for Jeanette McCurdy because I think she's genuinely good at acting. Perhaps there is still time for her to turn things around- she's still young (31) so my hope is that she can still gain the roles she would be proud of and worthy of her talents. I just she's found happiness and peace, because above all else, she deserves that.

[Kel Varnsen]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I don't either. It's been shown over and over how many adults do not give a damn whether their producer, actor, singer or team doctor is abusing kids or women for that matter. As long as he's making them all money or the kids are still making them all money. They do not care. Each time a new producer, singer, actor etc. are reveal. There are always so many who knew about it.  There are kids who told their agents, higher ups or parents. Nothing happened. They also have nothing to fear. If they went to the police nothing happened. The police or DA will drop the case or contact the child molester and believe everything he says. No matter how many go to the police. Only a few ever go to jail and all the enablers never go to jail.

And like I mentioned even if the production is perfect and the parents are great it can still be a fucked up situation if a kid is like the star of a show. I mean I know for my job, if I shop showing up for a few weeks (for whatever reason) I might take a hit but the organization I work for will be ok. But if you are like the kid who played Webster or something, if you stop showing up for work there could be 100+ people who are now unemployed. Kids aren't stupid and that is a crazy level of pressure for anyone to be on.

I am actually surprised I have never heard of a story about a child star saying, I am not going to work, you can't make me. Kids can't legally enter contracts, so their parents sign on their behalf I think. But if the kid says they don't want to be an actor anymore, say mid season of a show, parents couldn't really force them I don't think. So would anything happen?

Edited August 7, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[Blergh]

On 8/7/2022 at 1:52 AM, andromeda331 said:

You just reminded me of the Dionne quintuplets. Taken from their parents for their "safety" in 1935 and put on display to for people who visited. So much money made off them that they never saw. It took years before people started to realize that was wrong and should be return to their parents. Of course the irony they were actually right about their parents. At least their father who molested them. 

YEP!  These were the first known surviving quintuplets (and, as it turns out, genetically identical) born to a French-Canadian tenant farm family. To say they were 'put on display' is being kind. From the time they were tiny babies in 1934  until they were nine, they were treated like zoo animals by their doctor Daniel Dafoe and his staff with the five  playing in a courtyard surrounded by a mesh 'one-way' fence in which millions of paying tourists would file past on three sides. Despite the fact that their tiny town was a bit remote near the Ontario-Manitoba border, for a time they were Ontario's biggest tourist draw with more visitors than Niagara Falls! And the profiteering of their image was  insane with everything from paper dolls (which my mother was somehow given as a child) to table lamps, and they saw virtually none of the funds from that! And, of course, being exposed to the elements and zillions of tourists' germs, they often were ill but since they were five of them, the staff would have the remaining well ones do double/triple duty and pretend to be the the sick sisters! And yet, they would consider their compound where they were meticulously attended to and educated by the staff as their safe haven and  true home while the expanded family house (which their fame paid for) that they were sent to at age nine was 'the saddest home we ever knew'. Not just due to sexual abuse by their male DNA donor but also physical abuse by their female DNA donor with the two so-called adults and their many sibs openly resenting them for existing and their lives having been disrupted (but eagerly reaping and hogging a good part of the profits from them). The five girls all left together upon turning 18  having little contact thereafter with the rest of the family from that point on with three of them marrying and having children (and divorcing). It wouldn't be until they were in their 60's that they FINALLY got the Ontario government to apologize for their ordeal and to provide for them from a portion of the monies that they themselves had reaped but never saw.  In 1997, the then-three surviving quints wrote an open letter to the McCaughey Septuplets' parents urging them to safeguard their offspring's privacy. Today, two of the five survive at age 88 and live  outside of Montreal but, not surprisingly, are adamant about their privacy which they'd had none whatsoever until they turned 18.

Edited August 13, 2022 by Blergh

[merylinkid]

If no kids got into acting, we would only have shows with adults.   So let's be realistic here.   There are going to be kid actors.    But they need to be protected as best as possible.   

As noted, parents should be PARENTS.   Not managers.   Also it is the parents' job to provide for the kids, not vice versa.   So the kids' earnings should not be in any way shape or form family income.    

I have no idea about how to keep a kid from believing the whoel show depends on them and the guilt that goes with that.   Kids' brains are different and they don't reason like adults.   They don't understand that shows get cancelled all the time and folks go on to other work or figure something out.   But child psychologists being involved would be a good idea.   Even if paid by the studio, hopefully their ethics to the clients' prevail.    But basically people more equipped to help kids that I might address that issue.

[Mabinogia]

7 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I would love to extend it to reality shows and YouTube.

Children should not be involved in reality shows or YouTube for sure! With acting, you're playing a character, there might be some who don't get that, but most people understand that Haley Joel Osment didn't actually see dead people in real life. However, though reality shows might be scripted, you are still "playing" yourself. It is hard enough growing up, trying to figure out who you are, doing embarrassing shit as you learn how to navigate this extremely complicated world. You shouldn't have to deal with all that awkward being broadcast to thousands/millions of people. That is just bad parenting. 

I am so so so so glad I grew up before social media and even though video cameras were around, my family didn't have one, so there is no video evidence of the most embarrassing years of my life, and the mistakes or bad decisions I made won't haunt me for the rest of my life. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

4 hours ago, merylinkid said:

If no kids got into acting, we would only have shows with adults.   So let's be realistic here.   There are going to be kid actors.    But they need to be protected as best as possible.   

I think we should start thinking out of the box.  This is 2022, not the Shirley Temple years.  Why are we trying to make kids into STARS?  I understand kids being extras or in the background.  But look at the Stranger Things kids.  That girl (yes girl - a child!) who played Eleven has Botox and plastic surgery and she hasn't even hit 20.  It was even revealed that Drake had been texting her when she was very very young.  (Ick.)  How is that a positive thing?  

When Halyna Hutchins was shot to death on a movie set, half of the people cried out "Don't you dare take our guns from our movies and TV shows!"  But even actors like Xander Berkeley stood up and said there is absolutely no reason for a real gun to even be necessary on a set.  That's thinking outside the box.  People care about tradition way too much.

They're trying to make Julia Butters a STAR for instance.  Why?  there was no need for her part in "Once Upon a time in Hollywood" to be so large.  There was no need for her to be in "The Gray Man".  You can create stakes in a story without a child being threatened.  In the movie "Tenet" a child was being threatened that created stakes for the entire story but the child never spoke - yet he was a very imposing figure on the story itself.  That is how you do it.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Children should not be involved in reality shows or YouTube for sure! With acting, you're playing a character, there might be some who don't get that, but most people understand that Haley Joel Osment didn't actually see dead people in real life. However, though reality shows might be scripted, you are still "playing" yourself. It is hard enough growing up, trying to figure out who you are, doing embarrassing shit as you learn how to navigate this extremely complicated world. You shouldn't have to deal with all that awkward being broadcast to thousands/millions of people. That is just bad parenting. 

At the very minimum reality shows with kids should be subject to the same kind of child filming laws, that actual shows and movies are subject to. Including hours of work, getting paid and school requirements. Because my wife has watched a bunch of those TLC shows, and it is the exact same thing as filming a series. Especially because most of the time episodes revolve around some kind of trip event or special activity. So it is not like these are documentaries where you are just filming people in their regular life. And at this point anyone who pays even a tiny amount to reality shows should know that.

As for YouTube I don't know enough about how those people make money to know if that would work. But you would think with all the various TLC related scandals someone would be pushing for better protection.

Edited August 7, 2022 by Kel Varnsen

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Blergh said:

YEP!  These were the first known surviving quintuplets (and, as it turns out, genetically identical) born to a French-Canadian tenant farm family. To say they were 'put on display' is being kind. From the time they were tiny babies in 1934  until they were nine, they were treated like zoo animals by their doctor Daniel Dafoe and his staff with the five  playing in a courtyard surrounded by a mesh 'one-way' fence in which millions of paying tourists would file past on three sides. Despite the fact that their tiny town was a bit remote near the Ontario-Manitoba border, for a time they were Ontario's biggest tourist draw with more visitors than Niagara Falls! And the profiteering of their image was  insane with everything from paper dolls (which my mother was somehow given as a child) to table lamps, and they saw virtually none of the funds from that! And, of course, being exposed to the elements and zillions of tourists' germs, they often were ill but since they were five of them, the staff would have the remaining well ones do double/triple duty and pretend to be the the sick sisters! And yet, they would consider their compound where they were meticulously attended to and educated by the staff as their safe haven and  true home while the expanded family house (which their fame paid for) that they were sent to at age nine was 'the saddest home we ever knew'. Not just due to sexual abuse by their male DNA donor but also physical abuse by their female DNA donor with the two so-called adults and their many sibs openly resenting them for existing and their lives having been disrupted (but eagerly reaping and hogging a good part of the profits from them). The five girls all left together upon turning 18  having little contact thereafter with the rest of the family from that point on with three of them marrying and having children (and divorcing). It wouldn't be until they were in their 60's that they FINALLY got the Ontario government to apologize for their ordeal and to provide for them from a portion of the monies that they themselves had reaped but never saw.

Yeah, it was so horrible. How messed up that the zoo being was better then finally going home to their family? So messed up. There was a movie made about it Million Dollar Babies. It wasn't too bad. They make the parents' too sympathetic although the ending does show the father is now all interested in fame and money. But the mother remains sympathetic with her crying has her husband forces the girls to perform. Which she clearly wasn't.

Quote

In 1997, the then-three surviving quints wrote an open letter to the McCaughey Septuplets urging them to safeguard their offspring's privacy. Today, two of the five survive at age 88 and live together outside of Montreal but, not surprisingly, are adamant about their privacy which they'd had none whatsoever until they turned 18.

I really wish Hollywood and other families learned from them. 

[Lady Whistleup]

Since Anne Heche is in the news, found this interview she did where she talked about Ellen. Whoa. Some of the things she drops are just awful, like Ellen didn't want her to act or have friends, and isolated her. 

People have said the same thing about Ellen and Portia de Rossi.

[Bastet]

Yikes; good for Anne leaving then -- how chilling to hear your partner outright say "I don't want a girlfriend who needs friends".  I'm sure all the isolating behavior she'd already endured clicked with such clarity that day.

[Lady Whistleup]

3 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Yikes; good for Anne leaving then -- how chilling to hear your partner outright say "I don't want a girlfriend who needs friends".  I'm sure all the isolating behavior she'd already endured clicked with such clarity that day.

Anne also said that she believed the stories of the abusive work environment. I think Anne has had this "crazy" rep for so long that this story got buried??? Because what she's saying about Ellen is outright abuse.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Anne also said that she believed the stories of the abusive work environment. I think Anne has had this "crazy" rep for so long that this story got buried??? Because what she's saying about Ellen is outright abuse.

Yeah, back when they were together Ellen was still "America's Sweetheart" so the general consensus was that Anne was crazy and making shit up. It's kind of like with Rose McGowan. Because Rose is considered "out there" people didn't believe her about the abuse she's suffered until others spoke out. 

Sadly, that is exactly why predators tend to go after people considered "unstable" or "crazy", because the public will be less likely to believe them. :(

[Ms Blue Jay]

[Bastet]

24 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

Yeah, back when they were together Ellen was still "America's Sweetheart" so the general consensus was that Anne was crazy and making shit up. It's kind of like with Rose McGowan. Because Rose is considered "out there" people didn't believe her about the abuse she's suffered until others spoke out. 

Sadly, that is exactly why predators tend to go after people considered "unstable" or "crazy", because the public will be less likely to believe them. :(

The fact women are labeled "crazy" at the drop of a hat plays a big role in this.  Look at Sean Young -- all the shit that various men in Hollywood did to her, but the popular narrative was entirely about her.

[Lady Whistleup]

1 hour ago, Mabinogia said:

Yeah, back when they were together Ellen was still "America's Sweetheart" so the general consensus was that Anne was crazy and making shit up. It's kind of like with Rose McGowan. Because Rose is considered "out there" people didn't believe her about the abuse she's suffered until others spoke out. 

Sadly, that is exactly why predators tend to go after people considered "unstable" or "crazy", because the public will be less likely to believe them. :(

Anne also had zero family support -- a homophobic gay conversion therapist mom and I believe she has one sister left. That's actually someone a predator would hone in on. Because if he/she were to abuse Anne, who would Anne turn to?

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Anne also said that she believed the stories of the abusive work environment. I think Anne has had this "crazy" rep for so long that this story got buried??? Because what she's saying about Ellen is outright abuse.

I remember reading some of those stories about Ellen. It’s been quite a few years, though.

[BetterButter]

What Really Happened With Fred Savage on ‘The Wonder Years’

Quote

The former child star was directing the reboot of the series that made him famous when he was let go after "allegations of misconduct." Now, several of the women who reported Savage to Disney HR describe the behavior they say led to his ouster.

[Bastet]

The first sexual harassment allegation against Fred Savage was when he was only sixteen years old, yet look at the career he went on to have.  It's quite telling that from that first one to the latest that finally got him canned from something, it has always been crew members, not fellow actors or directors, he's harassed/assaulted -- "below-the-line employees who don't have power" as one said.

[Lady Whistleup]

Oh wow. I'm not sure I can look at all the reruns of TWY the same. I always loved Kevin Arnold and the behavior described in the article is disgusting.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Yeah um............. not good to make children the stars of shows........  I'm not excusing his behaviour because's a fully grown adult and/but Hollywood is toxic as hell and he is part of that.

I honestly don't recall watching any shows where kids were the stars.  There was Sesame Street, Mr. Dressup, Pee-Wee, etc.  Sure kids appeared but the STARS, no.  I so wish Hollywood would back away from that model.

Fred has been involved in SO MANY projects since the original TWY.  I have to wonder how many stories like this are there?  Seems like a lot of these men feel extremely powerful and even invincible, and for good reason.  Look at how that show "Bull" is still on.  Okay I just Googled this and it's finally done since May 2022 (thank god) BUT IT RAN FOR 6 SEASONS.  Eliza Dushku left after season 1 and the show went on for 5 more seasons.  Horrifying.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[DrSpaceman73]

6 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Yeah um............. not good to make children the stars of shows........  I'm not excusing his behaviour because's a fully grown adult and/but Hollywood is toxic as hell and he is part of that.

I honestly don't recall watching any shows where kids were the stars.  There was Sesame Street, Mr. Dressup, Pee-Wee, etc.  Sure kids appeared but the STARS, no.  I so wish Hollywood would back away from that model.

Fred has been involved in SO MANY projects since the original TWY.  I have to wonder how many stories like this are there?  Seems like a lot of these men feel extremely powerful and even invincible, and for good reason.  Look at how that show "Bull" is still on.  Okay I just Googled this and it's finally done since May 2022 (thank god) BUT IT RAN FOR 6 SEASONS.  Eliza Dushku left after season 1 and the show went on for 5 more seasons.  Horrifying.

What does a kid being a star of a show have to do with it?  

There is a littany of adult showbiz stars who have done the same or worse. 

Just about every Disney show focuses on kids as the stars. 

[ShadowHunter]

On 8/3/2022 at 1:15 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I heard that the Batgirl movie is being cancelled.

I said that Warner Brothers should cancel The Flash movie because of all of Ezra Miller's controversies and the response was oh absolutely not, they can't do that.  But Batgirl can be cancelled?

Ezra Miller has a court date in September for Felony Burglary and WB is still staying silent. They have not even released a statement saying they do not condone his actions which has upset many people. They can pretend all they want but Miller will get in trouble again.

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, ShadowHunter said:

Ezra Miller has a court date in September for Felony Burglary and WB is still staying silent. They have not even released a statement saying they do not condone his actions which has upset many people. They can pretend all they want but Miller will get in trouble again.

It's almost every day that there is a new damn Ezra Miller story. They're committing crimes all over the globe.  It's ridiculous!

Edited August 10, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ms Blue Jay]

5 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

What does a kid being a star of a show have to do with it?  

There is a littany of adult showbiz stars who have done the same or worse. 

Just about every Disney show focuses on kids as the stars. 

I'm not here to argue, it's something we've discussed in depth for the past two pages.  It's a situation rife with potential for exploitation, manipulation, sexual abuse, etc. etc. etc.  Dan Schneider is a great example.  It's also just too much pressure on a child. If you disagree, that's fine, I'm not here to push.

Eliza Dushku was also sexually assaulted on the set of True Lies as a kid, actually.  She's been through a lot.

Edited August 10, 2022 by Ms Blue Jay

[Lady Whistleup]

9 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm not here to argue, it's something we've discussed in depth for the past two pages.  It's a situation rife with potential for exploitation, manipulation, sexual abuse, etc. etc. etc.  Dan Schneider is a great example.  It's also just too much pressure on a child. If you disagree, that's fine, I'm not here to push.

Eliza Dushku was also sexually assaulted on the set of True Lies as a kid, actually.  She's been through a lot.

Yeah but if you're advocating against child stars, then you'd have to say the same for Little League, AAU teams, gymnastics, figure skating, ballet ... All require precocious, talented kids.

[DrSpaceman73]

42 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm not here to argue, it's something we've discussed in depth for the past two pages.  It's a situation rife with potential for exploitation, manipulation, sexual abuse, etc. etc. etc.  Dan Schneider is a great example.  It's also just too much pressure on a child. If you disagree, that's fine, I'm not here to push.

Eliza Dushku was also sexually assaulted on the set of True Lies as a kid, actually.  She's been through a lot.

But true lies doesn't focus on her character.  She's a side character  Why does it matter if the main character is a child?  If they are on the set and in the show its the same risk. 

Stranger things has a whole cast of kids.  You're saying that shouldn't happen?  

ET made in the early 80s with focus on ET and the kids.  

Stand by me.  The sandlot.  The bad news bears.  Whole bunch of movies in the 80s. 

Edited August 10, 2022 by DrSpaceman73

[Kel Varnsen]

28 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Yeah but if you're advocating against child stars, then you'd have to say the same for Little League, AAU teams, gymnastics, figure skating, ballet ... All require precocious, talented kids.

Is that the same thing though? Kids can play little league but no 12 year old is going to get called up to major league baseball. Yes there are kids in the Olympics, in like gymnastics and maybe swimming, although have a minimum age to compete at the Olympics might not be a bad thing.

[DearEvette]

I think there is a big difference between a child who is thrust into stardom, often making more money than their parents put together and oftentimes where their well being is of less interest than those of the company they work for vs.  children who are young athletes in sports.

Most young children in sports are not in professional sports.  Aren't being paid big money, considered a 'star'  on a national level to become a household name, are not required to do press, walk red carpets. etc, 

The most exposure they can get is something along the lines of competing in the Olympics.  And even then the sports that tend toward the really young are figure skating and gymnastics where one person can really shine and become a star.  And even now they are incorporating higher age limits there. You just won't see a 13 y.o in track and field or swimming, they just don't have the strength and endurance to compete with the adults.

Meanwhile a child star is working along side adults.  They can be bigger names than the adults they work with.  They can compete for Emmys and Oscars alongside adults.  That is something that is really outside the realm of any other industry/arena.  Entertainment is the only industry I can think of off the top of my head where children can make the same sort of money and work along side adults and have other areas of parity with adults.

[DrSpaceman73]

Also punky Brewster, different strokes, the facts of life. ..there were a bunch of 80s shows where the kids were the stars. 

No one was watching different strokes for conrad Bain.  

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Yeah but if you're advocating against child stars, then you'd have to say the same for Little League, AAU teams, gymnastics, figure skating, ballet ... All require precocious, talented kids.

Add religious groups. 

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Yeah but if you're advocating against child stars, then you'd have to say the same for Little League, AAU teams, gymnastics, figure skating, ballet ... All require precocious, talented kids.

Given what USA Gymnastics allowed to happen for years, I see nothing wrong with preventing children from playing sports at an Olympic level.  See also, Russian figure skating coach Eteri Tutberidze.  Ballet is no better. 

[Lady Whistleup]

3 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Given what USA Gymnastics allowed to happen for years, I see nothing wrong with preventing children from playing sports at an Olympic level.  See also, Russian figure skating coach Eteri Tutberidze.  Ballet is no better. 

So you want to ban all of them outright? Ballet and gymnastics (all sports actually) require you to start when you're little.

[xaxat]

Armie Hammer is a seriously scary psychopath.

‘I Am 100% a Cannibal’: New Armie Hammer Documentary’s Shocking Revelations

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Given what USA Gymnastics allowed to happen for years, I see nothing wrong with preventing children from playing sports at an Olympic level.  See also, Russian figure skating coach Eteri Tutberidze.  Ballet is no better. 

The problems start long before they reach the Olympic level. Increasing the minimum age to compete in the Olympics (which I do support) doesn’t actually protect the kids because they will still be training to be at that level when they are allowed. 
Plus it’s not just Olympic level. The focus on weight at high school level wrestling disturbed me when I saw it close up. 

[Ohiopirate02]

12 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

So you want to ban all of them outright? Ballet and gymnastics (all sports actually) require you to start when you're little.

From Olympic level competition, absolutely.  

[Lady Whistleup]

Just now, Ohiopirate02 said:

From Olympic level competition, absolutely.  

It’s not just Olympics though. There’s abuse at the level 7/8 level, at the amateur club level, not just elites. There’s actually abuse in every sport. 
I always think you can’t ban your way out of problems. 

[Kel Varnsen]

11 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

It’s not just Olympics though. There’s abuse at the level 7/8 level, at the amateur club level, not just elites. There’s actually abuse in every sport. 
I always think you can’t ban your way out of problems. 

Keeping kids out of the Olympics wouldn't stop abuse but I would also be worried about kids who are 13-14 years old who can't handle the pressure, the fame and the money associated with being an Olympic athlete.

That said after watching that Athlete A documentary I would be ok with USA gymnastics being burnt to the ground and all the abusers being in prison, along with all the accessories to being an abuser who didn't report things they should have. Then let some other organization not full of criminals manage the Olympic gymnastics team.