Lady Whistledown: Friend or Foe

[peachmangosteen]

Personally, I quite like the idea of Pen being kind of a sociopathic asshole while pretending to be some delicate, kind wallflower but the writers and actress don’t seem to think that’s what we saw. They made a mistake if that wasn’t what they intended it to look like. I assume they just thought they could have the drama Pen’s actions created while somehow still expecting the audience to see her as some naive child who made a mistake but only because she just loves Colin so much. There probably were several ways they actually could have achieved that but what they did was not one of them.

Not to mention the fact that they really should have reshot the reveal scene to not include her sinister smile lol.

[bijoux]

1 minute ago, peachmangosteen said:

Personally, I quite like the idea of Pen being kind of a sociopathic asshole while pretending to be some delicate, kind wallflower but the writers and actress don’t seem to think that’s what we saw. They made a mistake if that wasn’t what they intended it to look like. I assume they just thought they could have the drama Pen’s actions created while somehow still expecting the audience to see her as some naive child who made a mistake but only because she just loves Colin so much. There probably were several ways they actually could have achieved that but what they did was not one of them.

Not to mention the fact that they really should have reshot the reveal scene to not include her sinister smile lol.

I absolutely agree about the smile, but am willing to wait and see how the writers handle this in the future. Because everything clicked into place in the final minutes, so I can't really judge what they intended by it. If this gets explored further and Penelope is changed by this, makes amends somehow, it can even be a person in a precarious social situation unrelated to this, learns something, then that could be good storytelling. If it remains stagnant and considered immaterial, then it's crap. 

[Vella]

52 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Personally, I quite like the idea of Pen being kind of a sociopathic asshole while pretending to be some delicate, kind wallflower but the writers and actress don’t seem to think that’s what we saw. They made a mistake if that wasn’t what they intended it to look like. I assume they just thought they could have the drama Pen’s actions created while somehow still expecting the audience to see her as some naive child who made a mistake but only because she just loves Colin so much. There probably were several ways they actually could have achieved that but what they did was not one of them.

Not to mention the fact that they really should have reshot the reveal scene to not include her sinister smile lol.

This is where I am.  Penelope is not a naive girl getting in over her head. This is someone who would have had her every movement monitored and supervised. So how was she able to set up the Lady W gossip rag? How was she able to continue it while being escorted everywhere all the time? This speaks to a level of intelligence, planning and patience that leaves sweet, naive sheltered Penelope WAY behind.  What about how she wrote so well that nobody suspected a teenage voice was penning it? Or the sexual stuff she hinted at despite Penelope presenting herself as knowing NOTHING about the male anatomy, sex, pregnancy etc?

To me, this is INTERESTING, how Penelope managed to achieve all of this and still maintained secrecy during the height of Lady W's exploits? Why not pursue that avenue? That Penelope is everything Eloise dreams of being, only, Penelope betrayed Eloise to achieve her own selfish needs and goals. That Penelope is hardcore, taking choices and creating opportunity for herself when she never would have been given it.

My concern in reading the writers and actors response suggests there's a disconnect between what they thought they were presenting and what actually happened.  You can't hand wave what Penelope is doing, these are the behaviors and actions of someone who is extremely calculating and very clever and quite frankly, very cold too.

But I wouldn't be surprised if that's the road they take, to downplay and diminish Pen's actions. They did that with Daphne.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Vella

[TheOtherOne]

I've been thinking about the name Whistledown and wondering why Quinn chose it. It seems close enough to whistleblower not to be a coincidence. If anything, the show's introduction of the Marina plot and the decision to have Penelope use her power not just for idle gossip, but to expose wrongdoing, explicitly makes her a whistleblower in a way the book Penelope/Whistledown didn't seem to be. And the response to her actions is basically the same one real-world whistleblowers get.

Marina was committing fraud. Penelope/Whistledown told the truth. That's it. Penelope didn't lie or commit libel. She didn't idly share the information for no reason, or for kicks. She wouldn't have told the truth at all if Marina wasn't doing something wrong. And yet, the simple act of telling the truth is as controversial as it often is in real life, especially in our current Fake News era. Whistleblowers often find themselves under attack because what's they're saying can't be disputed (because it's the truth), so they're criticized for having said anything at all. Whistledown is targeted for arrest. The scientist in Florida who was trying to get out the real COVID-19 numbers had her home invaded by the police. The whistleblower is decried as a traitor, and disloyal, who betrayed the people who trusted them. "She's trash, because she....TOLD THE TRUTH!" "I hope the show doesn't whitewash that she...TOLD THE TRUTH!" (Meanwhile, the people lying always have justifications. "The real COVID numbers can't be shared because they'll scare people; they'll hurt business; they'll make officials look bad..." "Marina had to commit fraud, because REASONS." Because people doing something wrong, in real life or in fiction, usually have REASONS.)

It's interesting--Wonder Woman 1984 dropped on the same day as Bridgerton, and there were some complaints about how it was too much of a commentary on the world today, with all its talk about truth and lies. It had characters who had understandable reasons to want to lean into lies, yet, for all the movie's many faults, one thing it got right is that it came down firmly on the side that "Nothing good comes from lies." Bridgerton is even more of a period piece, and an alternate reality, yet it ended up being just as much of a reflection of our world today. The whistleblower who did nothing but tell the truth is targeted by the government. Debating whether or not the act of telling the truth is a good thing is a very 2020 debate to have.

Edited December 31, 2020 by TheOtherOne

[Katsullivan]

What I'm surprised that no one has mentioned is that Marina's speech to Penelope - that she was completely friend-zoned while Colin say her (Marina) as a woman - was probably what pushed Penelope into publishing that article. When I read all the comments explaining all the ways Penelope could have exposed Marina discreetly, it seems more than obvious that it wasn't just about protecting Colin or even feeling entitled to him. It was a very specific act of revenge.

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

Not to mention the fact that they really should have reshot the reveal scene to not include her sinister smile lol.

1 hour ago, Vella said:

But I wouldn't be surprised if that's the road they take, to downplay and diminish Pen's actions. They did that with Daphne.

 

Both instances of white women behaving badly to POCs and the narrative hand-waving their actions. As someone mentioned above, whether this was done deliberately or not, the optics are terrible.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Katsullivan

[bubble sparkly]

Yeah, the Pen reveal was shot to show her as sinister and smug, and kind of implied she was a Keyer Soze character who had been lying about everything. So the actress calling her innocent and sweet is a big disconnect because Lady W is just the opposite. But I guess we don’t know if the writers will treat her as a villain or try to play her as a sweet and innocent life destroyer who somehow isn’t aware of her own power.

Since Daphne and Marina probably hate Lady W the most it would be interesting if they teamed up to try and expose Lady W. The most satisfying conclusion for me would be if Colin comes back from his trip and decides to propose to Pen because she is a trustworthy and reliable pal and he wants to avoid further heartbreak from the kind of passion he felt for Marina. Cue Pen’s awkward face as Colin repeatedly tells her how glad he is to be marrying his friend who keeps no secrets from him etc. Pen grapples with whether she should tell Colin she is Lady W but decides not to since it could jeopardize her dream or marrying him. Then at the wedding Marina and Daphne publicly expose Pen and Colin dumps her at the alter.

[norcalgal]

On 12/27/2020 at 10:24 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I am proud of myself for picking up  at least some of the clues that Pen was Lady W on just watching

Me, I suspected Penelope might have been Lady W just going by the “least person you’d suspect” theory.  My other candidate for Lady W was Lady Danbury (Simon’s pseudo mother). 

[seth]

On 12/28/2020 at 3:35 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

And here's an article about hints that Pen was Lady W throughout the series;

https://news.yahoo.com/17-moments-gave-away-lady-150100169.html

Aside from the inconsistency of teenage Penelope being precocious enough to observe & write anywhere as eloquently and maturely as Lady Whistedown, what about the obvious voice inconsistency? How does Shonda/showrunners plan to reconcile Penelope's high, squeaky voice with the 85-yr.-old husky Julie Andrews'/Whistledown voice that narrates every episode. Even if it's a "looking back" from a much older Penelope/Whistledown, Penelope's voice will simply never sound like that.

[RachelKM]

21 minutes ago, seth said:

Aside from the inconsistency of teenage Penelope being precocious enough to observe & write anywhere as eloquently and maturely as Lady Whistedown, what about the obvious voice inconsistency? How does Shonda/showrunners plan to reconcile Penelope's high, squeaky voice with the 85-yr.-old husky Julie Andrews'/Whistledown voice that narrates every episode. Even if it's a "looking back" from a much older Penelope/Whistledown, Penelope's voice will simply never sound like that.

This doesn't really bother me.  We are not supposed to be listening to Penelope's voice itself.  In my view, the device of having the stories read by a particular voice is to convey the effect of reading the scandal sheet itself.  In other words, to portray for the audience the image the audience of the Lady Whistledown's experience of reading the papers.

For those who watched Gossip Girl, it was done similarly.  GG on the show was a blog, but provided to the show's audience by the voice of Kristen Bell.  In the end, it turned out that GG had been primarily written by a male character and I think even by some other characters at points in the series (I didn't watch regularly, but I think this is true). So the voice for the GG VO, like Julie Andrews as Whistledown, was not related to the author of the gossip, but a dramatization of the effect of reading it.

[UnoAgain]

3 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

What I'm surprised that no one has mentioned is that Marina's speech to Penelope - that she was completely friend-zoned while Colin say her (Marina) as a woman - was probably what pushed Penelope into publishing that article

Well when I said jealousy I also meant that exchange... But as its up in the topic.. It also bugged me that Marina wasn't more concerned that Pen was in love with Colin... While I don't think she was malicious with her trick.. It was still real real bad and her convincing herself she'd be a good wife and they'd be OK was.. Like many of the plans of these characters... Bad.. But after knowing pen wasnt too happy about what was gonna happen and finding out she was in love with him.. She didn't seem all that worried... And she had tons to be worried about... And yeah Pen lied by saying she'd never hurt her or the rest of the fam but eh... And then after it happens... How is Pen not the number one and honestly only suspect at the very least for leaking it... Made no sense to me.. But maybe marina was so devestated she just said F it. 

 

2 hours ago, bubble sparkly said:

Then at the wedding Marina and Daphne publicly expose Pen and Colin dumps her at the alter.

I don't even really like Pen... But that's just savage... 

Could Madame D and Pen be whistledown together... Like pooling info or is she just the best red herring... Cuz other than the Featherington's she's the only other person who may have gleaned that marina was pregnant.. and as she's worldly enough to fake her accent and fool apparently all these ppl besides marina.. Shes plugged in everywhere it seems 

[Door County Cherry]

I also wouldn't be surprised if we later don't have a Julie Andrews cameo (assuming they keep her narration for a second season) where we see her reading Lady Whistledown's writing out loud to either herself or someone else.  The show never did say that the narrator was also the author.  We just made that assumption. 

[katha]

4 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Both instances of white women behaving badly to POCs and the narrative hand-waving their actions. As someone mentioned above, whether this was done deliberately or not, the optics are terrible.

I think they are quite good at individual character moments sometimes, but don't really understand long-term character arcs beyond the "shock" or "excitement" of the moment. This ties into not understanding that if you cast POCs in your series, the dynamics you are presenting are necessarily changing. It doesn't become some sort of egalitarian utopia, you're just adding another layer of power hierarchies and structures of oppression and exploitation.

Arguably both Pen's and Daphne's story arcs are sorta (white?) female "wish-fullfilment" narratives in the books already. Translating them to the screen uncritically, but adding another layer of power structures to it and not really thinking about how that changes things and makes the optics of it troublesome, is what happened in my view. If you want to give them the benefit of the doubt. IMO they're good at "bright shiny objects", not so good at "long-term."

Edited January 1, 2021 by katha

[Gwendolyn]

49 minutes ago, katha said:

This ties into not understanding that if you cast POCs in your series, the dynamics you are presenting are necessarily changing. It doesn't become some sort of egalitarian utopia, you're just adding another layer of power hierarchies and structures of oppression and exploitation.

I think this is playing a lot into the optics of how people view what Penelope did as Lady Whistledown. The writers thought of this  as an AU where POC are equal to white people and expect viewers to see Pen sinking Marina's chance at marriage and security as an underdog finding her voice, when it comes across to viewers as a Karen with all the power destroying a POC who's already got the deck stacked against her.

While I praise Shondaland for attempting color conscious casting, because it brought Regé-Jean Page to my eyes and I already knew how kick ass Adjoa Andoh was (and she steals every scene as Lady Danbury). they forgot the larger implications of the optics to their story telling, because viewers will bring their own experiences and prejudices to this. So Pen and Daphne's actions look worse than if they had been done against white characters.

In the books I like Pen, but Lady Whistledown never punched down, here she does and if the show is smart they'll course correct. Yes, Lady Whistledown was telling the truth, but her truth hurt a woman that was already in a dire, no-win situation and Pen didn't do it until someone she cared about was the dupe. Because I like book Pen and view this Pen as a rash teenager, I'll give her a second chance, but based on this and other threads I think the show's writers have their work set out for them.

[ursula]

5 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Both instances of white women behaving badly to POCs and the narrative hand-waving their actions. As someone mentioned above, whether this was done deliberately or not, the optics are terrible.

I said the exact same thing in the Books thread*.  

 

19 minutes ago, Gwendolyn said:

and expect viewers to see Pen sinking Marina's chance at marriage and security as an underdog finding her voice, when it comes across to viewers as a Karen with all the power destroying a POC who's already got the deck stacked against her.

Yes. The idea that Lady W is a Champion of Truth and Justice fails when you remember that Pen was as keen on the plan until Colin became the target and that like @Katsullivanpointed out, her expose was revenge-motivated. 

19 minutes ago, Gwendolyn said:

In the books I like Pen, but Lady Whistledown never punched down, here she does

I’ve seen enough book fans complaining about the Marina expose to believe that it’s really not just about residual fondness for book Penelope but the idea that Penelope being fat - and perceived as less attractive than Marina*, she’s automatically the underdog. 
 

*I also said but never got the chance to elaborate on how Marina is the latest iteration of a trope I’ve noticed where Black women are built up only for the narrative to systematically tear them down. Marina is introduced as the “unexpected” rival to Daphne’s White Diamond, who is suddenly the Center of attention at the ton. During the course of the season, she goes from the most desirable debutante to disgraced, alone and driven to suicide. That this arc was done to prop Pen and Daphne, who are white women

Spoiler

(and 3 if you count the books)

doesn’t escape notice.

Edited January 1, 2021 by ursula

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, katha said:

Arguably both Pen's and Daphne's story arcs are sorta (white?) female "wish-fullfilment" narratives in the books already. Translating them to the screen uncritically, but adding another layer of power structures to it and not really thinking about how that changes things and makes the optics of it troublesome, is what happened in my view. If you want to give them the benefit of the doubt. IMO they're good at "bright shiny objects", not so good at "long-term."

 

41 minutes ago, Gwendolyn said:

they forgot the larger implications of the optics to their story telling, because viewers will bring their own experiences and prejudices to this. So Pen and Daphne's actions look worse than if they had been done against white characters.

These are both great points.

And not only the optics of how this lays out, there is also the fact that there is resentment of the "color conscious" casting in some corners that would already disadvantage Marina.

And as you say, people bring their own baggage/expectations when they watch a show. So with that in mind, Penelope has other off-screen pre-baked advantages.  She is a major character in the book series who is popular amongst the readers.  Many people who liked her in the books are pre-disposed to like her and side with her regardless of what she does.  So the character has a fair amount of plot armor already built in.

Spoiler

She and Colin get their own romance in book 4 and so they are destined for each other.  People see that what she did was ok because she had to do what she needed to get secure her man.

Also, as @ursula points out, a lot of people want the fat  girl to win because she doesn't normally get the guy.

And finally, Nicola Coughlan has a good sized fanbase from Derry Girls and Harlots.  So there is a major root factor for her from that, whereas the actress who plays Marina this looks to be her first really high profile role.

Edited January 1, 2021 by DearEvette

[Chicago Redshirt]

Got most of the way through a rewatch on NYE.

I'm on the fence as to whether Pen is playing dumb when it comes to knowing about sex and reproduction when she's talking with her mother and Eloise or if she is faking being worldly as Lady W.

Also, it struck me that Lady W has a role of pushing Marina as the true incomparable that has more resonance when you know it's really Pen doing it. So it's not just a disinterested observer -- it's someone who stands to benefit from Marina having an elevated status.

It also didn't seem like there were all that many Pen-Daphne scenes. In fact, I don't know if Pen ever had a direct conversation with either Daphne or Simon.  

[Roseanna]

23 hours ago, TheOtherOne said:

I've been thinking about the name Whistledown and wondering why Quinn chose it. It seems close enough to whistleblower not to be a coincidence. If anything, the show's introduction of the Marina plot and the decision to have Penelope use her power not just for idle gossip, but to expose wrongdoing, explicitly makes her a whistleblower in a way the book Penelope/Whistledown didn't seem to be. And the response to her actions is basically the same one real-world whistleblowers get.

Marina was committing fraud. Penelope/Whistledown told the truth. That's it. Penelope didn't lie or commit libel. She didn't idly share the information for no reason, or for kicks. She wouldn't have told the truth at all if Marina wasn't doing something wrong. And yet, the simple act of telling the truth is as controversial as it often is in real life, especially in our current Fake News era. Whistleblowers often find themselves under attack because what's they're saying can't be disputed (because it's the truth), so they're criticized for having said anything at all. Whistledown is targeted for arrest. The scientist in Florida who was trying to get out the real COVID-19 numbers had her home invaded by the police. The whistleblower is decried as a traitor, and disloyal, who betrayed the people who trusted them. "She's trash, because she....TOLD THE TRUTH!" "I hope the show doesn't whitewash that she...TOLD THE TRUTH!" (Meanwhile, the people lying always have justifications. "The real COVID numbers can't be shared because they'll scare people; they'll hurt business; they'll make officials look bad..." "Marina had to commit fraud, because REASONS." Because people doing something wrong, in real life or in fiction, usually have REASONS.)

I don't think that revealing in public people's private life can be be justified by "telling the truth". That should should mean only important matters that really concern other people.       

[ursula]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think that revealing in public people's private life can be be justified by "telling the truth". That should should mean only important matters that really concern other people.       

There’s already a word for it - gossip. Lady W’s news is the Regency equivalent of the kind of toxic tabloid trash that hurts real life people for money and clicks. With the added bonus of Penelope, also like contemporary gossip rags, using her platform to drive her own selfish agenda. 

[RachelKM]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Also, it struck me that Lady W has a role of pushing Marina as the true incomparable that has more resonance when you know it's really Pen doing it. So it's not just a disinterested observer -- it's someone who stands to benefit from Marina having an elevated status.

 

Penelope wouldn't have benefited from Marina's status. While scandal in the house was shared by all ladies in residence or in connection.  Being popular did not.  Penelope also didn't create Marina's success, but rather commented on it.  I happen to rewatch the first episode and it struck me that Penelope writing about Marina's success mostly had the effect of vexing her mother.

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think that revealing in public people's private life can be be justified by "telling the truth". That should should mean only important matters that really concern other people.       

I suppose it depends on the effect of the secret. Revealing this particular secret was harmful to Marina (and the Featheringtons), but it prevented Colin from being taken advantage.  

Likewise, exposing Lord Berbrooke's dealings with his maid and abandoned child thwarted his bullying behavior and threats to Daphne. I've yet to see anyone take up for him.

It occurs to me that part of the issue with this discussion is that the show only really invites us to consider the perspectives Marina and to a lesser extent Penelope.  Marina is given a complete story regarding her feelings, motivations, and obstacles.  Pen is given small window but, because most of her activities are secret even to the audience, her perspective, though given, is minimally fleshed out. 

As a result, there is an inclination to take up for Marina because we feel her motives are well defined and, if not entirely pure, entirely understandable.

Penelope, as a result of being partially hidden from us, is less easy to understand and requires some speculation. I don't know how the show will treat her character, but I admit that I am inclined to view her motives with more charity because I know her from the books.

[ursula]

43 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I suppose it depends on the effect of the secret. Revealing this particular secret was harmful to Marina (and the Featheringtons), but it prevented Colin from being taken advantage.  

Likewise, exposing Lord Berbrooke's dealings with his maid and abandoned child thwarted his bullying behavior and threats to Daphne. I've yet to see anyone take up for him.

What's interesting about Berbrooke is that he's a very unsympathetic character, but even he got many, many chances to do the right thing - the family rejecting his suit, getting literally beaten up - and it's only after all this that the rumour mills are set into motion. So it's kind of interesting how a leech like Berbrooke still got a better deal from people he hated than Marina got from her "friend" Penelope. 

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Also, it struck me that Lady W has a role of pushing Marina as the true incomparable that has more resonance when you know it's really Pen doing it. So it's not just a disinterested observer -- it's someone who stands to benefit from Marina having an elevated status.

Rewatching, it's kind of tragic seeing how close the two girls were because Penelope seems so taken by Marina when they meet (which also gave her lowkey gay vibes) and as Mrs W seemed to enjoy her rise in stardom. Then they shared all those cute moments together, confiding in each other, and Penelope rescuing her from the lecherous old men. Marina even states getting to live near Penelope and being sisters, as a bonus to marrying Colin. Even after their fight, Marina apologizes and tells Penelope how she (Penelope) is a big part of Marina's happiness. 

 

43 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Penelope, as a result of being partially hidden from us, is less easy to understand and requires some speculation. 

"Penelope" 's motives are quite clear - she had a crush on Colin, and hated the idea of him and Marina together. It's shown in many scenes, moments, etc. The reveal of her identity as Lady W only serve as a rewatch bonus, lining up opportunities and motives. To put it in another way, we might have wondered how Lady W  knew about Marina's pregnancy - but we always knew why Penelope wanted to stop the marriage.

Her motives were clear - they're just not sympathetic imo.

Edited January 1, 2021 by ursula

[Roseanna]

28 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I suppose it depends on the effect of the secret. Revealing this particular secret was harmful to Marina (and the Featheringtons), but it prevented Colin from being taken advantage.  

Likewise, exposing Lord Berbrooke's dealings with his maid and abandoned child thwarted his bullying behavior and threats to Daphne. I've yet to see anyone take up for him.

It occurs to me that part of the issue with this discussion is that the show only really invites us to consider the perspectives Marina and to a lesser extent Penelope.  Marina is given a complete story regarding her feelings, motivations, and obstacles.  Pen is given small window but, because most of her activities are secret even to the audience, her perspective, though given, is minimally fleshed out. 

As a result, there is an inclination to take up for Marina because we feel her motives are well defined and, if not entirely pure, entirely understandable.

Penelope, as a result of being partially hidden from us, is less easy to understand and requires some speculation. I don't know how the show will treat her character, but I admit that I am inclined to view her motives with more charity because I know her from the books.

It's not about Penelope's motives at all but the consequences of her action. She had a better option: she could have caused the effect by speaking privately to Colin (or her mother or sisters) but she chose to reveal the matter publicly, thus making the greatest possible harm to Marina and even some harm to Colin who became a laughingstock of all.

[Roseanna]

When I started to watch this show, I thought that Lady Whistledown's role was to satirize the marriage market that made upper-class women like cattle and are in their side. But when I look back, LW's actions shows her to be a malicious woman who wants to put other women down, first Daphne and then, more cruelly, Marina.   

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

 

"Penelope" 's motives are quite clear - she objected over Colin and it's shown in many scenes, moments, etc. The reveal of her identity as Lady W only serve as a rewatch bonus, lining up opportunities and motives.

Clearly they are not or we would not have pages of discussion of them.  What were her motivations for her objections to marrying Colin, what degree her motivation for publishing Marina's secret is Colin's wellbeing versus her own feelings, what she understood about the likely consequences, and so on.  We know none of that because, unlike Marina and her feelings for George, her heartbreak at her belief in her rejection, and her revulsion at the prospect of the old guy, we didn't get Penelope's take on any of this. 

Even her feelings for Colin are voiced and speculated on by Marina, not Penelope.  Marina says the words out loud and Marina points out that he doesn't see Penelope that way.  But we don't know what Penelope actually thought about her prospects with Colin in the future or his likelihood of marrying someone else, even if not Marina.  I know what the book Penelope thought, but we know nothing about what the Penelope in the show thinks.  

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

It's not about Penelope's motives at all but the consequences of her action. She had a better option: she could have caused the effect by speaking privately to Colin (or her mother or sisters) but she chose to reveal the matter publicly, thus making the greatest possible harm to Marina and even some harm to Colin who became a laughingstock of all.

I disagree (obviously).  It may not be the only consideration, but it matters storywise.  Just like knowing the consequences of not marrying for Marina make her motives understandable when otherwise, tricking Colin into marriage would be villain territory without her POV.

The reasons Penelope didn't necessarily speak to Colin or a Bridgerton "discreetly," the opportunities or lack there of to do so, the effect of outing Marina even in private, etc. has been rehashed repeatedly in this thread. 

Edited January 1, 2021 by RachelKM

[ursula]

6 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Clearly they are not or we would not have pages of discussion of them. 

Well the discussions so far have been if Penelope being "fat" and otherwise unconventionally attractive don't make her an underdog. If Marina is of the same or lower social class as the Fs. If Marina deciding to do an abortion retroactively OKs the fact that Penelope didn't consider the fate of Marina's unborn child when she outted it as illegitimate. 

So basically, it's not a discussion of Penelope's motives, as much as a discussion of Penelope's "righteousness".

11 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

But we don't know what Penelope actually thought about her prospects with Colin in the future or his likelihood of marrying someone else, even if not Marina.

No one who watched the show could have missed Penelope's unrequited crush on Colin.

17 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

When I started to watch this show, I thought that Lady Whistledown's role was to satirize the marriage market that made upper-class women like cattle and are in their side. But when I look back, LW's actions shows her to be a malicious woman who wants to put other women down, first Daphne and then, more cruelly, Marina.   

The sad thing is I feel the show isn't interested in exploring this. 

[RachelKM]

46 minutes ago, ursula said:

Well the discussions so far have been if Penelope being "fat" and otherwise unconventionally attractive don't make her an underdog. If Marina is of the same or lower social class as the Fs. If Marina deciding to do an abortion retroactively OKs the fact that Penelope didn't consider the fate of Marina's unborn child when she outted it as illegitimate. 

These have been our discussions with one another.  Though, much have also discussed Penelope's motives.  And this whole thread is called "Lady Whistledown: Friend or Foe."

And honestly, haven't seen anyone mention Penelope being fat as a reason for anything other than you for pages. In fact, I only recall one early post that even brought it up as part of why Penelope was treated badly by her mother and ignored generally.  And honestly, I think it was only to discuss their relative social power, not justify her actions.  

There have been pages in both this thread and the final episode regarding why Penelope did what she did - was it malice or jealousy? Did she have other options or other opportunities? If so, when and why pick this one?

For me personally, Penelope's weight is neither here nor there.  She is a wallflower.  In the books,* her weight plays a role, but only marginally.  She also is still in an acne phase (she's only 17), and despite being bright and even witty with her friends, gets easily tongue tied when nervous and either fails to speak at all or nervous blather pops out. And, of course, her mother's deplorable taste in clothing. 

 

*I'm re-reading as we speak.  I actually just started Penelope's book this morning.

ETA:

Quote

No one who watched the show could have missed Penelope's unrequited crush on Colin.

Well, yes.  Her crush is not in dispute.  How it informed her choices is.

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by RachelKM

[Roseanna]

12 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

What were her motivations for her objections to marrying Colin, what degree her motivation for publishing Marina's secret is Colin's wellbeing versus her own feelings, what she understood about the likely consequences, and so on.  We know none of that because, unlike Marina and her feelings for George, her heartbreak at her belief in her rejection, and her revulsion at the prospect of the old guy, we didn't get Penelope's take on any of this. 

But we don't know what Penelope actually thought about her prospects with Colin in the future or his likelihood of marrying someone else, even if not Marina.  I know what the book Penelope thought, but we know nothing about what the Penelope in the show thinks. 

Well, that's a general difference between a novel and movie and series. A writer can, if he/she chooses it, tell a person's thoughts. But a person can be insincere also in her thoughts. F.ex. a heroine thinks "I hate him" because she can't admit her feelings even to herself and the audience who have read romances know that.

The movie or series only tells what a person says and show how he/she looks and acts. But on the basis of former movies and series the audience can interpret that the couple who "hate" each other in the beginning will probably love each other in the end.

It's true that we know more about Marina, most of all her feelings towards George and her motives to marry Colin. But in the end we don't need any thoughts of Penelope because her actions show her false towards all, especially her friend Eloise. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, RachelKM said:

Penelope wouldn't have benefited from Marina's status. While scandal in the house was shared by all ladies in residence or in connection.  Being popular did not.  Penelope also didn't create Marina's success, but rather commented on it.  I happen to rewatch the first episode and it struck me that Penelope writing about Marina's success mostly had the effect of vexing her mother..

In episode 5, Lady F criticizes Marina for not being grateful about the Rutledge match and for going for Colin. Her response: "If I were to marry Mr. Bridgerton, you would be connected to what I gather is a very powerful family indeed. Think what that could do for your girls." Lady F. does and approves of Marina aiming for Colin.

In Episode 6, "Do you think Colin will introduce us to his friends. Some of them are quite strapping." says one of the Featheringtons

"I'm sure he will," replies Marina. "I'm sure all of our fortunes are about to change."

It's possible that Marina is overly optimistic. But I think it's safe to infer that there is an expected domino effect of one good marriage resulting in a benefit to the others under the Featherington roof.

Also, clearly Lady W didn't make Marina popular out of whole cloth. But it seems indisputable that by naming Miss Marina Thompson as the real Slim Shady incomparable and someone not everyone knew but everyone would, Lady W would make Marina more desirable than before because some people in society would be hearing of her for the first time through the writing, and even some of those who already had heard of her might come to see her as even more desireable.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[RachelKM]

19 hours ago, Roseanna said:

It's true that we know more about Marina, most of all her feelings towards George and her motives to marry Colin. But in the end we don't need any thoughts of Penelope because her actions show her false towards all, especially her friend Eloise. 

Yes.  Penelope is definitely hiding her motives and, at least in some ways, lying to everyone.  Some of her actions may be sincere as they are not incompatible what we do know.  But we will just have to wait to see what they do going forward now that they've outed Lady W.

19 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's possible that Marina is overly optimistic. But I think it's safe to infer that there is an expected domino effect of one good marriage resulting in a benefit to the others under the Featherington roof.

An advantageous marriage could benefit Marina's relatives, if she chose to promote them (which is part of the implications of telling Lady F to consider it, that she intended to aid them).  

But merely commenting on Marina emergence as an incomparable, wouldn't have much to do with Penelope  or her sisters in and of itself.  And, since Penelope didn't even wish to be out that year, would have little advantage for her personally.

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by RachelKM

[ursula]

15 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

These have been our discussions with one another. 

...whose other discussions were you referring to?

To be honest, I'm not sure what or how to respond to the rest... discussing about what kind of discussions sounds like mental onions. 

The original point you made was that Penelope's motives weren't clear, so I'll just reiterate that they were because the show didn't leave her feelings for Colin unambiguous. It also showed Penelope going along with Marina's plans to marry "Cute", helping her cockblock lecherous old men, and generally being happy to find her a dupe until that dupe was Colin. Then it showed Penelope's heartbreak when Marina was making plans to marry Colin (her fight with Eloise). And her decision to expose Marina with Lady W, rather than more discreetly talk to Eloise or Mrs B, whom she had easy access to.

6 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's possible that Marina is overly optimistic. But I think it's safe to infer that there is an expected domino effect of one good marriage resulting in a benefit to the others under the Featherington roof.

Good point. When Daphne married the Duke, Violet said she was setting the standard for her sisters. (So, no pressure!) Even Anthony thinks he can play the "my brother in law is a Duke" card as a reason to flout convention with Sienna. And Mrs F is very happy to have Marina married off to Sir Crane, and mentions how it will benefit her cousins. 

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by ursula

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

Rewatching, it's kind of tragic seeing how close the two girls were because Penelope seems so taken by Marina when they meet (which also gave her lowkey gay vibes) and as Mrs W seemed to enjoy her rise in stardom. Then they shared all those cute moments together, confiding in each other, and Penelope rescuing her from the lecherous old men. Marina even states getting to live near Penelope and being sisters, as a bonus to marrying Colin. Even after their fight, Marina apologizes and tells Penelope how she (Penelope) is a big part of Marina's happiness. 

This is really the only thing I hate about Pen being Lady W. I loved the Marina/Pen friendship so much. I thought they seemed like better friends than Eloise and Pen actually. Although, now I wonder if that was all bullshit on Pen's part lol. 

[RachelKM]

5 hours ago, ursula said:

...whose other discussions were you referring to?

To be honest, I'm not sure what or how to respond to the rest... discussing about what kind of discussions sounds like mental onions. 

The original point you made was that Penelope's motives weren't clear, so I'll just reiterate that they were because the show didn't leave her feelings for Colin unambiguous. It also showed Penelope going along with Marina's plans to marry "Cute", helping her cockblock lecherous old men, and generally being happy to find her a dupe until that dupe was Colin. Then it showed Penelope's heartbreak when Marina was making plans to marry Colin (her fight with Eloise). And her decision to expose Marina with Lady W, rather than more discreetly talk to Eloise or Mrs B, whom she had easy access to.

 

I was referring to the thread in its entirety which is a discussion of Lady W and her actions and whether she is a "Friend or Foe" which was itself created because of the conversations on the topic had taken over much of the Episode 8 thread.  It was not limited to just us.

I don't know where the disconnect is.  We agree that Penelope was motivated, at minimum in part, by her feelings for Colin.  We disagree of whether her concern was focused more on Colin or herself.  Have you never been heartbroken as much on behalf of you cared about as your own?  I know I have.

Edited January 2, 2021 by RachelKM

[ursula]

1 minute ago, peachmangosteen said:

This is really the only thing I hate about Pen being Lady W. I loved the Marina/Pen friendship so much. I thought they seemed like better friends than Eloise and Pen actually. Although, now I wonder if that was all bullshit on Pen's part lol. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it was all bullshit. I think Pen genuinely liked Marina, and her feelings soured because Marina set her sights on Colin. Sad to say, but girls ruining friendships over a boy is as commonplace as it gets.

[Chicago Redshirt]

19 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Yes.  Penelope is definitely hiding her motives and, at least in some ways, lying to everyone.  Some of her actions may be sincere as they are not incompatible what we do know.  But we will just have to wait to see what they do going forward now that they've outed Lady W.

An advantageous marriage could benefit Marina's relatives, if she chose to promote them (which is party of the implications of telling Lady F to consider it, that she intended to aid them).  

But merely commenting on Marina emergence as an incomparable, wouldn't have much to do with Penelope  or her sisters in and of itself.  And, since Penelope didn't even wish to be out that year, would have little advantage for her personally.

 

Gossip about how great Marina is -->more suitors for Marina--->better marriage prospects for Marina--->better marriage for Marina--->better prospects for the Fetheringtons.through connections with Marina's husband

Gossip about how great Marina is--->more suitors for Marina coming to the Featherington home---> more opportunities for Lady F to redirect unsuccessful Marina suitors to the other daughters in the Featherington household and/or increased possibility of the unsuccessful suitors considering the other Featherington daughters as a consolation prize

Edited January 1, 2021 by Chicago Redshirt

[RachelKM]

4 hours ago, ursula said:

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think it was all bullshit. I think Pen genuinely liked Marina, and her feelings soured because Marina set her sights on Colin. Sad to say, but girls ruining friendships over a boy is as commonplace as it gets.

Huzzah! We agree on something.  I also think that they genuinely liked one another until Penelope got upset that Marina had chosen Colin.  And I too hate that they went this way because I liked them together too.  It is just one of the things I hate about how they did this added subplot.

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Gossip about how great Marina is -->more suitors for Marina--->better marriage prospects for Marina--->better marriage for Marina--->better prospects for the Fetheringtons.through connections with Marina's husband

Gossip about how great Marina is--->more suitors for Marina coming to the Featherington home---> more opportunities for Lady F to redirect unsuccessful Marina suitors to the other daughters in the Featherington household and/or increased possibility of the unsuccessful suitors considering the other Featherington daughters as a consolation prize

I understood what you meant.  I disagree that Penelope would have considered it an advantage. 

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by RachelKM

[Featherhat]

29 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

Yes.  Penelope is definitely hiding her motives and, at least in some ways, lying to everyone.  Some of her actions may be sincere as they are not incompatible what we do know.  But we will just have to wait to see what they do going forward now that they've outed Lady W.

An advantageous marriage could benefit Marina's relatives, if she chose to promote them (which is party of the implications of telling Lady F to consider it, that she intended to aid them).  

But merely commenting on Marina emergence as an incomparable, wouldn't have much to do with Penelope  or her sisters in and of itself.  And, since Penelope didn't even wish to be out that year, would have little advantage for her personally.

 

To be honest LW agreeing and promoting the idea that Marina was an incomparable and the diamond only really served to make the Featherington girls seem more ridiculous especially as she kept going after her mother. And it wasn't shown that the crowd of suitors turned around to look at any of them and abandoned the chase. Nor did she suggest that they should.

Whilst being connected to the Bridgertons might help if Marina pushed them forward in the books all the Bridgertons like Penelope, invite her to all their parties and hope she'll find a husband one day but it doesn't get her anywhere.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Featherhat

[quarks]

1 hour ago, ursula said:

"Penelope" 's motives are quite clear - she had a crush on Colin, and hated the idea of him and Marina together. It's shown in many scenes, moments, etc. The reveal of her identity as Lady W only serve as a rewatch bonus, lining up opportunities and motives. To put it in another way, we might have wondered how Lady W  knew about Marina's pregnancy - but we always knew why Penelope wanted to stop the marriage.

Her motives were clear - they're just not sympathetic imo.

I'm not at all sure that her motives are that clear - even the actress said she read the script and went, what? and then had to talk to another cast member to try to figure out why Penelope was doing this.

We do know that Penelope has a crush on Colin. We also know that after she outed Marina's pregnancy, she broke down in tears in front of Eloise, suggesting that doing this upset her. What we don't know is:

1. Was Penelope doing this for Colin, to ensure that he wouldn't marry a woman who was lying to him before the wedding ceremony? Colin himself said that had Marina told him the truth, he would have married her. He wasn't bothered by the pregnancy. But he was bothered by the lie - enough to decide not to go through with the marriage. 

This is during a period where divorce was difficult to impossible. To pick just one example: in 1762, Lady Sarah Lennox and Sir Charles Bunbury married. Six years later, she gave birth to another man's son. Sir Charles was able to do the math and said, yeah, no. No. No. No. Lady Sarah briefly took off with the other man and Sir Charles decided to go for a divorce. That divorce - with ample proof of adultery, incompatibility and abuse - took seven years, a lot of money, and an actual Act of Parliament.  And at that, they were both lucky to be granted one.

In the case of Lord Byron, he and his wife Lady Byron couldn't get a divorce even after she accused him of alcohol abuse, physically abusing her, and sleeping with his half-sister, and after he took off to Italy and got Mary Shelley's stepsister pregnant. This should have been enough to grant them a divorce. It wasn't. That all happened in 1815-1817 - just a few years after this season of the show. 

Within the show, we see this with Daphne and Simon - they never discuss divorce. They only discuss separation. If the wealthy Duke of Hastings can't afford/manage a divorce, it seems unlikely that Colin will manage this. 

2. Was Penelope doing this for Penelope? The camera makes it clear that Penelope has a crush on Colin, and Marina points out the same thing. Sure, when Colin first starts courting Marina, Penelope seems to accept this, but there's a wide gulf between "wow, they like to hang out together" and "OMG they aren't really getting married, are they?" It's certainly at least possible that Penelope did this because she wants to marry Colin - thus why so many people are making that exact point in this thread and elsewhere. 

The problem is - again, as the actress noted - the script doesn't clarify either way. Penelope might be doing this because she wants to marry Colin and can't bear to think of him marrying someone else. Or, she might be doing this for purely selfless motives, to save Colin a lifetime of misery. I think the script is mostly pointing towards the selfless motives, but I'd be the first to agree that this is at best arguable.

I still mostly blame Sir George for all of this, but that's me.

[ursula]

2 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

To be honest LW agreeing and promoting the idea that Marina was an incomparable and the diamond only really served to make the Featherington girls seem more ridiculous especially as she kept going after her mother.

I also think Penelope really just liked Marina and was happy for her. That she got to piss off her mom and sisters in the process was an added bonus.

What I find more interesting is what this shows about Penelope's feelings about Daphne. She could easily have talked up Marina without the digs and snide comments about Daphne. Did she share Eloise's resentment towards Daphne for being "perfect" and was secretly happy to see her knocked down a notch?

[peachmangosteen]

IMO if she was doing it entirely selflessly and only to protect Colin then she would have gone about it a different way. 

Also, I think it's really hard to not see Pen doing it at least partially out of jealousy simply because the Lady W of this series is kind of an asshole lol. She seems like someone who really enjoys gossiping about people and, in turn, the consequences that gossip has on people. That's why for me I don't see how they can really keep Pen as a innocent, naïve, kind, selfless person.

[RachelKM]

4 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

IMO if she was doing it entirely selflessly and only to protect Colin then she would have gone about it a different way. 

 

She tried a different way.  She told Colin that Marina was in love with her first love and Colin interpreted it as she'd been in love before. And he still seemed to believe that 1) Marina was at least genuinely interested in him and 2) she was dealing honestly with him.  I wish Penelope had clarified or told him then the truth.  But I believe Marina came in just then.

I don't recall that Penelope had any other chances to talk to him and the night she published the story was the night she learned Colin and Marina were eloping in the morning.

We just don't know enough of Penelope's thoughts and what she believed were her options to determine the malice or lack thereof in her motives.

[Featherhat]

22 minutes ago, ursula said:

I also think Penelope really just liked Marina and was happy for her. That she got to piss off her mom and sisters in the process was an added bonus.

What I find more interesting is what this shows about Penelope's feelings about Daphne. She could easily have talked up Marina without the digs and snide comments about Daphne. Did she share Eloise's resentment towards Daphne for being "perfect" and was secretly happy to see her knocked down a notch?

I agree LW's feelings about Daphne are a lot cloudier in the TV series. The writers set up this Diamond to fall from grace that simply wasn't there in the books where Daphne is just a nice, average girl and LW liked her and only made a couple of comments about "the horror"  for her mother if Daphne fails to secure a match on her 3rd season. They needed LW to help drive the upped stakes of the drama to stretch out the slim book for 8 hours. She could have been leaning into Eloise's resentment of her but it doesn't help Eloise if Daphne fails to marry someone or is married off to Berbrooke. Lady B isn't forcing Eloise out against her will so there's no need to keep Daphne unmarried to "protect" Eloise from her turn and if she's in a bad marriage that would make her sister even more unhappy. She started off the column being very complimentary though and whilst LW fanned the flames Marina was already taking the shine off her along with Anthony's meddling. 

I honestly think the writers probably weren't writing LW with what it means for Penelope in mind until the last episode, even though they knew they wanted to expose her as the dramatic gotcha. I think she was supposed to be sincere in her relationships with Marina, Eloise and everyone else. Just that that doesn't jive with her writing a often capricious gossip column. 

I might be wrong but I don't think it's going to turn out that she's been deliberately hurting or playing people, strange as that may seem from the ending. And I do think we're going to see her suffer consequences. 

Edited January 2, 2021 by Featherhat

[Chicago Redshirt]

36 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

I understood what you meant.  I disagree that Penelope would have considered it an advantage. 

 

Presumably, Pen did not want to marry anybody herself but she did want to see her sisters married. As far as we know, the two older sisters had a single prospect between them. We obviously can't tell if one of the unsuccessful suitors could have been persuaded to show interest in the older sisters, but from the perspective of Pen/LW in episode 1, it's certainly a reasonable expectation to have and something she would have wanted.

29 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

To be honest LW agreeing and promoting the idea that Marina was an incomparable and the diamond only really served to make the Featherington girls seem more ridiculous especially as she kept going after her mother. And it wasn't shown that the crowd of suitors turned around to look at any of them and abandoned the chase. Nor did she suggest that they should.

I dunno if digs at Lady F mean anything as to the Featherington daughters socially. Again, that none of the crowd of suitors started to turn their attention toward the Featheringtons as far as we saw does not mean a) that in fact they did not turn their attention to them b) that they would not have eventually turned to one of the Featheringtons as a consolation prize after failing to win Marina and c) that Pen did not hope that that the unsuccessful Marina suitors would turn their affecctions to the Featheringtons.

The second part of your post should be spoiler tagged IMO because it's about the books.

[Chicago Redshirt]

38 minutes ago, quarks said:

I'm not at all sure that her motives are that clear - even the actress said she read the script and went, what? and then had to talk to another cast member to try to figure out why Penelope was doing this.

We do know that Penelope has a crush on Colin. We also know that after she outed Marina's pregnancy, she broke down in tears in front of Eloise, suggesting that doing this upset her.

All we know from the show is that at some point that night, Pen breaks down with Eloise and the next morning the Lady W column is being distributed.

There are multiple possible scenarios and there's no telling which actually happened in terms of the sequence of events and the motivation of the characters based on what was shown.

First sequence of events:

1. Pen writes the Lady W. column, breaks down in front of Eloise, then takes the column to be published.

2. Pen breaks down in front of Eloise, writes the Lady W column and takes it to be published.

3. Pen writes the Lady W. column and takes it to be published, then breaks down in front of Eloise.

Now motivation:

1. Pen writes the Lady W column to save her friend Colin from the unhappiness of potential scandal and/or a marriage under false pretenses

2. Pen writes the Lady W column because she wants Colin for herself and wants to avoid having him get taken off the market

3. Pen writes the Lady W column because of "journalistic" reasons (i.e. she loves bringing the truth to light/wants the scoop/is making money)

4. Pen writes the Lady W column because of jealousy of/anger at Marina

5. Pen writes the Lady W column without really thinking about it since she's a teenage girl

6. Some combination of the above/other motivations I didn't think of.

[quarks]

There's also, of course, the question of what might have happened to Marina when/if Colin realized the truth.

In another historical example not mentioned on the show, Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire, had an affair outside her marriage. When she got pregnant, and her husband found out, he exiled her to Europe and cut her off financially. (Again, no question of divorce, although the Duke could have cited this, his own infidelities, and Georgiana's ongoing gambling problem). She also had to give up custody of the child to complete strangers. 

In a nice touch, her husband's mistress, who was also her close friend, went with her to Europe.

And that was someone from a rich and powerful aristocratic family (the Spencers, aka Princess Diana's family.)

I don't think that show Colin would have done that to Marina. But it was at least legally possible. So far all of the "you must find a husband to avoid finding yourself on the streets," there was the risk of that happening even if Marina got married to whatever person.

[Jess14]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think that revealing in public people's private life can be be justified by "telling the truth". That should should mean only important matters that really concern other people.       

Exactly. It's like someone who, rather than speak privately to her best friend, posts on social media for everyone to see, that said best friend's husband is having multiple affairs.....When the best friend is upset that her personal life has been aired out for everyone's amusement, saying "but I told the truth" isn't going to help. The issue in that case, as well as the case with Pen, isn't telling the truth, it's that she drug people through the mud in public - including Colin, who she supposedly cares about - without making the disclosure in private. Whether Colin was going to be tricked is not a matter of public concern. If she told Colin the truth, and he still wanted to be with Marina, so be it. Pen just didn't want to take the chance that Colin would learn the truth and still choose to stay with Marina - hence, going nuclear with Lady W. 

There's also this:

3 hours ago, Roseanna said:

When I started to watch this show, I thought that Lady Whistledown's role was to satirize the marriage market that made upper-class women like cattle and are in their side. But when I look back, LW's actions shows her to be a malicious woman who wants to put other women down, first Daphne and then, more cruelly, Marina.   

Yes. This is part of the issue too. It wasn't just light-hearted or satirical stuff. Pen used Lady W to settle a score with Marina, and then there is the situation with Daphne, who by all means, was nothing but nice to her.  The character just comes off in a poor light to me (if she is supposed to be sympathetic). 

I also agree with those who initially liked the Marina/Pen friendship. It's a shame that they destroyed it.

[Growsonwalls]

2 hours ago, Jess14 said:

Yes. This is part of the issue too. It wasn't just light-hearted or satirical stuff. Pen used Lady W to settle a score with Marina, and then there is the situation with Daphne, who by all means, was nothing but nice to her.  The character just comes off in a poor light to me (if she is supposed to be sympathetic). 

I also agree with those who initially liked the Marina/Pen friendship. It's a shame that they destroyed it.

Hmm I thought the Lady W reveal at the end sort of cast a different light on all the "friendships" in the show. For instance Eloise and Pen's friendship seemed a little faker if Pen was pumping Eloise for gossip about the Bridgertons for her writings. 

One thing I did really like was that Daphne was actually a good friend to Marina and the Featheringtons and she didn't have to be. She was compassionate, nonjudgmental, and really listened to everyone's side in the story. 

I thought that the final reveal was a good dichotomy between what a friend actually acts like (Daphne) and what a friend shouldn't be like (Pen). Not sure if that was the intention of the writers but that's what I got. 

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, quarks said:

There's also, of course, the question of what might have happened to Marina when/if Colin realized the truth.

In another historical example not mentioned on the show, Georgiana, Duchess of Devonshire, had an affair outside her marriage. When she got pregnant, and her husband found out, he exiled her to Europe and cut her off financially. (Again, no question of divorce, although the Duke could have cited this, his own infidelities, and Georgiana's ongoing gambling problem). She also had to give up custody of the child to complete strangers. 

In a nice touch, her husband's mistress, who was also her close friend, went with her to Europe.

And that was someone from a rich and powerful aristocratic family (the Spencers, aka Princess Diana's family.)

I don't think that show Colin would have done that to Marina. But it was at least legally possible. So far all of the "you must find a husband to avoid finding yourself on the streets," there was the risk of that happening even if Marina got married to whatever person.

Good points but this show has nothing to do with the historical reality but only with the roles of the roles of romance. If Marina were a heroine, she would have a miscarriage or lose her child after birth and be near death herself, which would make Colin to forgive her and in the same time she would fall in love with him because him taking tenderly care of her during her tribulation and they would live happily ever after.

If she were the rival of the heroine, she would die in childbirth or elope with her lover, in order to make him free to marry the heroine. Her child would either die or be a girl whom the hero would eventually "forgive" her mother's sin with the help of the heroine.

As it was, Marina had neither set role which made her the most interesting, indeed the only interesting character besides Penelope/LW because both had at least some freedom to make choices that weren't premeditated by the plot, unlike Daphne and Simon. 

[peachmangosteen]

9 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I thought that the final reveal was a good dichotomy between what a friend actually acts like (Daphne) and what a friend shouldn't be like (Pen). Not sure if that was the intention of the writers but that's what I got. 

Yea, the problem imo is that I don't think the writers see it that way at all. I think they still want us to see Pen as a naive, kind child that deserves to be forgiven for her mistake. It just doesn't fly. 

[ouinason]

or they could be setting her up for a fall, and some redemption before her HEA (if she even gets one).  

[Atlanta]

I hate that they made LW so vicious. She wasn't so bloodthirsty in the book. The only people she really dug her claws in were folks like Cressida and other bullies.

[OlderThanDirt]

I think the name Whistledown comes from the phrase "whistle down the wind" which means to toss something of as inconsequential or a throwaway.  I've heard Julia Quinn talk about her love of research  and how if she uses a word or phrase it is authentic to the period. 

As a fan of her writing I was disappointed in the "punching down" of LW's columns in the series.  But IMO the books and the series are distant cousins,  related but not necessarily going in the same direction.  I can enjoy them both, kind of like John Grisham's books and the movies that are completely different.