Murder On Middle Beach

[IntrovertRed]

Jeffrey Hamburg is a piece of shit.  A good father would try to help his son discuss and process the past and answer questions without anger and constant defensiveness and deflections.  Their relationship is only on the father's terms.  Jeffrey Hamburg certainly isn't doing himself any favors with his behavior.  Who was the woman that went to dinner with Madison and his dad?  His wife/girlfriend?

Ali looks so much like her mother.  It was a little disturbing that she seems so distant and cold in her interviews, but I suspect she's really trying to not lose control.  I wonder how she ended up in Argentina.  Her husband's family seems loving and welcoming, it must be so nice for Ali to be around that considering the family environment she grew up in.

Barb thinking the court hearing at 2 pm is very intriguing.  I work for attorneys and generally we'd either call or email the client. But that definitely explains why she was still in her pjs.

I have been surprised that you are able to record a conversation without the other party knowing, like when Madison recorded his conversations at the police department.  I think the PD and their attorneys were smug and thought they'd walk all over the Yale law students, but I was impressed with them, they held their own.  It had to be intimidating as hell.  I was happily surprised that the FOIA was approved, as I figured it would be denied.  

I hope Madison stays with this and doesn't give up.   I am very impressed with him, he's a smart kid (although he's almost 30 by now, so I guess not a kid), and I hope he stays on the right track.  I also hope that that Conway doesn't continue to guilt Madison.  I realize she's a connection to his mother, but he has to set boundaries with her, almost like she's a child.  I think she needs to deal with her demons more than anyone of that family.  Hopefully she realizes that after this documentary.  

Edited December 8, 2020 by KLJ

[bilgistic]

5 minutes ago, KLJ said:

Who was the woman that went to dinner with Madison and his dad?

Jeffrey's sister/Madison's paternal aunt.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

That was a pretty good finale. I was so happy when Madison got the disc of the 911 call but I was THRILLED when he found out that the police department had to turn over 1600 (!) documents about the investigation. I wish I could say that I couldn't believe that the police had the nerve to say Barb's murder was still an active investigation after they specifically told Madison that they were at a complete dead end. Thank goodness he recorded that conversation so that the world could see that they were totally lying (and yeah, right, they just got a tip LAST WEEK). I've heard similar stories where the police refused to give rape victims their files because they claimed it was still an ongoing investigation, despite the fact that they had no suspects. I understand not wanting to make all the information public, but in a case like Barb's murder where they had no new information in the past six years and they had made no arrests in a decade, it seems egregious for them to keep that information from her family.

Madison's dad is a real piece of work. On top of refusing to pay six figures in alimony and child support, he then had the nerve to tell Madison that Barb LIED when she said that he abandoned them. How is that a lie? He left the country, had no contact with them, and was not financially supporting them. If that isn't abandoning your kids, I don't know what is.

Even without the murder of his ex-wife as a factor, he is shady as fuck. Even if I had none of the background information about the shell corporations and Barb's murder, just listening to him stonewall Madison about everything and try to make up plausible excuses made it really obvious that he is a lying liar who lies. And then to add insult to injury, he told Madison, "There's more but I'm not going to tell you." What a prick.

Seeing what a condescending asshole he was to his son who was begging him to tell him ANYTHING made me that much happier that Ali found a nice guy to marry. She seemed very happy with him and with his family. All the stuff that she said about her dad and Conway made me think that she's had a lot of therapy and that she understands that there are people she's related to who are never going to change or be who she wants them to be. I wish Madison could find that peace and acceptance because by his own admission, he still wants to have a relationship with his shitty excuse for a father.

If I could speak to Madison, I would tell him that just because someone is related by blood does mean that they will love you or treat you the way you deserve to be treated. It's okay to let go of the idea of having a normal relationship with your dad. I think the sooner he accepts that his dad will never fulfill that fantasy of the honest, loving father he has in his head, the sooner he will be able to move on with his life.

Conway sounded totally drunk during the phone call when she yelled at Madison for not returning her calls and then cried about Barb's murder. I really felt for Madison when he later said that he was concerned about Conway seeing the way she portrayed herself by talking about hiring a hitman to kill her own sister. I was glad he was astute enough to realize (1) Conway gets defensive as soon as you don't agree with her Ali theory and (2) the only way to get any info out of his dad was to stop presenting all the evidence that showed his dad was a liar and a conman.

When Madison said he felt guilty about recording his interactions with his dad and not telling him about the documentary, I wanted to give him a hug. His dad obviously does not care about abandoning his family, failing to pay child support, stealing Ali's college fund, or missing out on years of Madison and Ali's lives, so why should Madison feel bad about recording some phone calls?

From what Madison and his father both said, they were not in contact and did not really have a relationship before Madison got in touch for this documentary, so it's not like he will be missing out on anything if his dad is furious about him taping their phone calls. So they go back to having no relationship - what's the big loss? They're just back where they used to be, which is not in each other's lives.

Usually with docuseries, I only want one season but in this case I'd love another one to see what's in all those documents!

Edited December 8, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[chediavolo]

Confirms how much incompetence there is in certain police cases/depts. I happened to watch “casting Jon Benet” the other day & it reminded me of the incredible non functioning Boulder police.  Everyone needs to be a little scared and concerned everywhere.  

[chediavolo]

I think  it was the daughter. She reminds me of a cousin of mine. A little unhinged to begin with and knock down drag out fights with the mother, used drugs and alcohol. At times she’s the sweetest most levelheaded person  and other times she’s a crazed maniac.
Why did she move to another country right after her mother was killed does this not strike people as being a little odd? It was just something about her,I wouldn’t discount her at all. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, chediavolo said:

I think  it was the daughter. She reminds me of a cousin of mine. A little unhinged to begin with and knock down drag out fights with the mother, used drugs and alcohol. At times she’s the sweetest most levelheaded person  and other times she’s a crazed maniac.
Why did she move to another country right after her mother was killed does this not strike people as being a little odd? It was just something about her,I wouldn’t discount her at all. 

Madison was able to rule Ali out as a suspect. She arrived at school at 7:54am (and Barb was still alive at that point because she told the school attendance office that Ali wasn't feeling well as her excuse for being tardy) and she was on campus until she was signed out at 10:50am when Conway picked her up.

Even if she had managed to sneak out of school in the three hours in between, she didn't have a car so would it really have been possible for her to walk home, kill her mom, clean herself up, and walk back to school? In a rich suburban town in Connecticut, I imagine the school took attendance during every class so someone would have noticed if she had skipped class to go home and murder her mom (I grew up in a much more middle class area and they still took attendance every period and called our parents if we missed any classes).

Ali didn't leave town right away. Barb was murdered on March 3rd and Ali stayed in town until she graduated from high school in May/June. Apparently she was going to counseling with Conway so she must have been around for a little while. She left town to go backpacking through South America.

It's not uncommon for people who are grieving to want to go on vacation/leave town/get away from their normal life, especially if the deceased was someone very close to them because everything reminds them of the person who died, particularly when they lived in the same house and/or the same town. That's the table where mom served us dinner and had us blow out our birthday candles. That's her bedroom where I ran when I had nightmares. That's the sofa where we sat and watched movies together. That's the coffee shop we went to the morning she was killed. That's the park she used to take us to when we were kids. It can be overwhelming to be surrounded by memories of the person who died everywhere you go.

[springtime]

13 hours ago, chick binewski said:

At certain points I would find myself doubting that the husband did it bc of what Madison left out of the doc. Ali started traveling right after her mother's death and Madison finished his college education 

I understood that after her Mom died, Ali stayed in Madison to complete high school. News articles say she was a Sophomore at the time of her Mom’s murder (and a quick search has her listed on the honor roll in 2011) Seems Conway took her in and made sure she had counseling. 

With college funds depleted and no parenting from her father, Ali chose to travel after graduation. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by springtime

[Rowan]

I don’t want to say I enjoyed a docuseries about a son’s search for his mother’s murderer, but my attention was definitely engaged with each episode. 
 

Conway is a piece of work. That look of smug satisfaction when she relates how the only things her son wanted to take from the house that she got them evicted from, no less, was his baseball equipment and HER, his mama bear.  

Puke.

She still isn’t over the fact that he was given over to her sister’s care. She’s like, “see, he loves me, he would choose me if he could!” Well, he can’t, bitch, ‘cause you’re a raging alcoholic who would rather have your sister murdered than see your son with a semi-responsible parental figure other than yourself. I don’t feel sympathy for her. She is the kind of person who sucks any and all of the oxygen out of every room she enters. 
 

I was actually fairly relieved to see Ali pretty much cleared. I didn’t realize that I was that invested till after that info came out. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Rowan

[TexasGal]

My recording cut off as Madison was talking about getting the FOIA response but before he said what the response was (grrr) so I'm glad he got case documents!  Did he say whether he got them all or just some?  I saw this article yesterday https://www.gq.com/story/murder-on-middle-beach-finale; and it sounds like maybe part of the file got released but part was not.  He also says in the interview they tried to get the police to turn the files over to their investigators with an agreement that they would not make them public, but the police refused.  So shady! 

[blixie]

Quote

She still isn’t over the fact that he was given over to her sister’s care.

I'm still not over how every single thing she says about Ali is so clearly projecting her feelings about BARB. Especially that bit about baby Ali wanting her moms attention, like that's an insane thing to say, until you see it as being her resentful of how clingy Barb the baby was to her own mother? Like I think she kind of hated/resented Barb even before she took her son, but taking her son was the point of no return. Not to say I don't think she also loved her sister, but that's family, man a toxic mix of resentment and love. I can see how that could happen though, since the grandmother said all the girls in the family became alcoholics, but it seems like Conway is the only one who hasn't been allowed any grace about her addiction/struggles within the family, except from Madison. 

[Pop Tart]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Ali didn't leave town right away. Barb was murdered on March 3rd and Ali stayed in town until she graduated from high school in May/June. Apparently she was going to counseling with Conway so she must have been around for a little while. She left town to go backpacking through South America.

 

Conway mentioned at one point that part of her theory of why Ali killed Barb was that she wanted to get the life insurance money - she may even have said that she wanted the money so she could travel, though I'm not sure about this last bit. So if there was life insurance money that would have gone to Ali at 18, then that may be how she was able to afford to take off after high school and just backpack across South America. Totally understandable reaction to finding your mother dead. As with everything else to do with the Conway/Barb/Ali triangle it seemed clear that Conway was secretly bitter that she didn't get the insurance money. 

48 minutes ago, blixie said:

I'm still not over how every single thing she says about Ali is so clearly projecting her feelings about BARB. Especially that bit about baby Ali wanting her moms attention, like that's an insane thing to say, until you see it as being her resentful of how clingy Barb the baby was to her own mother? Like I think she kind of hated/resented Barb even before she took her son, but taking her son was the point of no return. Not to say I don't think she also loved her sister, but that's family, man a toxic mix of resentment and love. I can see how that could happen though, since the grandmother said all the girls in the family became alcoholics, but it seems like Conway is the only one who hasn't been allowed any grace about her addiction/struggles within the family, except from Madison. 

Agree with this Blixie. Think there is also a lot of jealousy on Conway's part of Barb's relationship with Ali. She somehow saw Ali as an interloper in her relationship with Barb. Perhaps because it seems that the point that Conway was dealing with medical issues and came to live with Barb was about the same time that Ali was going through her worst teen years and was using super negative behavior to get attention/her needs met. Conway clearly felt at that time that she should have been number one in Barb's priorities and resented Ali drawing Barb away. That's how I read her unspoken needs. I do also believe that she did not like how Ali was treating Barb at that time. As you said a toxic and complex mix.

As much as Conway seems to be a deeply damaged person who, granted, inflicts damage in her own right, I still appreciate that both Madison and Ali give her some grace - earned or not. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Agree with this Blixie. Think there is also a lot of jealousy on Conway's part of Barb's relationship with Ali. She somehow saw Ali as an interloper in her relationship with Barb. Perhaps because it seems that the point that Conway was dealing with medical issues and came to live with Barb was about the same time that Ali was going through her worst teen years and was using super negative behavior to get attention/her needs met. 

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, Conway was Barb's little sister. It's not a stretch to imagine that Conway felt like Ali had replaced her in Barb's life and resented her for it.

Quote

Who was the woman that went to dinner with Madison and his dad?  His wife/girlfriend?

It was Jeffrey's sister Marcia, who he was living with.

[carrps]

15 hours ago, KLJ said:

I have been surprised that you are able to record a conversation without the other party knowing, like when Madison recorded his conversations at the police department.  I think the PD and their attorneys were smug and thought they'd walk all over the Yale law students, but I was impressed with them, they held their own.  It had to be intimidating as hell.  I was happily surprised that the FOIA was approved, as I figured it would be denied.  

Some states are one-party-approvers on taping other people, so if you want to tape someone you can do it clandestinely. Others are two-party, and it's illegal to tape without both parties' approval. You'd get charged with a crime if you went ahead and taped in a two-party state without permission. By that logic, Connecticut must be a one-party approval state, right?

And I was impressed by the law students, too! If I ever need legal representation, I'm choosing a Yale lawyer, not a Harvard one. 🤪 Of course, they probably went with Yale 'cause they're in Connecticut.

 

3 hours ago, Pop Tart said:

As much as Conway seems to be a deeply damaged person who, granted, inflicts damage in her own right, I still appreciate that both Madison and Ali give her some grace - earned or not. 

Yeah, and this goes to Barb's parenting. As much as Jeffrey besmirched her, I think she did a good job with her kids.

As for the crime, I agree with pretty much everyone (the husband did it). I was thinking afterwards that they showed those notes from Jeffrey to Barb where he kept saying he loved her. Nah. I think being a narcissist he didn't want her to leave him. He wanted to leave her. On his terms. He couldn't take it. Also, I had completely forgotten about the ski mask guy on the day before the murder. That even more points to the husband to me. He didn't do it himself, so he hired some dufus. The guy got scared off because Barb had someone with her on the day he planned to do it. If it was one of the gifting tables people, for me, it would have been something they'd have done in a fit of anger/hot emotion. I can't seeing them getting scared off and coming back. The people from the gifting tables who would have been most upset with Barb were her AA associates. I don't see them as having the wherewithal or the gumption to commit murder.

Edited December 8, 2020 by carrps
missing capitalization

[Pop Tart]

21 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Yeah, if I'm not mistaken, Conway was Barb's little sister. It's not a stretch to imagine that Conway felt like Ali had replaced her in Barb's life and resented her for it.

I kept bouncing back and forth on who was older, but I think that actually Conway is the older sister. She said more than once that she always looked out for Barb (had to be when they were kids). But her addiction and medical issues as an adult pushed Barb into being her caretaker. I think they were probably pretty co-dependent and their relationship, even when they were both not drinking, was probably mostly unhealthy and too intertwined (Barb even brought Conway into the tables).

 

[carrps]

1 minute ago, Pop Tart said:

I kept bouncing back and forth on who was older, but I think that actually Conway is the older sister. 

Yeah, this.

[Maysie]

Conway is a soup sandwich and I switched between feeling sorry for her and being angry with her for her behavior, particularly her really savage attitude towards Ali (such as "I don't love her!" and blaming her and making sure everyone knew it). At the time of the murder, Ali was probably around 15 years old. So Ali argued with her mother and told her to fuck off. So she drank and ran around. So she told her mom that Conway needed to move out. I understand that none of that is good, but she was 15 years old. It's not like she was a grown ass woman with a child who ran away to Florida (abandoning her child in the process), took up with a pimp and then tried to put a hit on her sister's entire family. But the (apparently) drunken phone call, the "yeah, I live in a trailer now but I made a nice little sitting area out here" and opening the storage unit to find that she had a bunch of Barb's ashes in there made me feel a bit sorry for her because she is obviously unwell. She needs help, and probably has for a long, long time. Barb's death, including discovering her body, has traumatized her and it makes me wonder if she will ever recover.

Ali doesn't give me the warm fuzzies, but I will say, I respect that she did what she had to do for self care, including getting therapy and away from that family.

Jeffrey is a low life creep. All of those documents (and again, wtf with Conway keeping them in storage??? Did the police have copies of that stuff?) and he is ballsy enough to deny every bit of it. I kind of understand Madison's desire to keep a connection with his father because that's his one remaining parent and he has some good memories of his father (and video evidence of it!), but I agree that if he wasn't ready to sever the relationship on some level, he wouldn't have secretly taped the conversations.

During the FOIA hearing, I was so disgusted when the police had those smug smiles on their faces after the Detective answered the follow up question from one of the hearing attorneys. I am giving them a hard side eye in all of this.

Madison impresses me no end. It would have been so easy for him to turn this piece of work into a schmaltzy, feel-sorry-for-me-but-I'm-still-a-badass project but I never once got any of that vibe from him. His motives are clear, and despite the emotional toll this must take on him, he produced a fine series that was compelling and not overwrought. As Ali said in the final episode, there were two paths, one of living in the darkness of what happened to their mother and one toward living life in a healthy, happy way. I think they each chose the right path, but their journeys are vastly different. I hope he finds the peace his sister has found, no matter what happens with the case. It occurs to me that we've kind of watch him grow up in this documentary. I'm sure his mother would be proud of the man he's become.

 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Pop Tart said:

I kept bouncing back and forth on who was older, but I think that actually Conway is the older sister. She said more than once that she always looked out for Barb (had to be when they were kids). But her addiction and medical issues as an adult pushed Barb into being her caretaker. I think they were probably pretty co-dependent and their relationship, even when they were both not drinking, was probably mostly unhealthy and too intertwined (Barb even brought Conway into the tables).

 

Yeah, I seem to remember her specifically saying that she was the one in the middle who was expected to be invisible and shut up/take care of everyone else. She's got "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!" issues.

[blixie]

Conway is for sure older, Barb was the youngest girl and the second youngest of all six kids. Barb was adorable Cindy to Conway's ignored Jan. I think Ali is just the repository for all her Barb hate/resentment her whole life, but to be fair it sounds like Ali was totally obnoxious terror, not w/o good reason but I think cussing at your parents and ordering them around ain't normal or healthy, it's okay to be put out by it no matter how understandable..

Quote

By that logic, Connecticut must be a one-party approval state, right?

They are actually are a two party state which is pretty weird, the podcast Crime Writers on seemed to think all the stuff w/his dad was taped in NY state, all the meetings and he lives there with his sister. But that wouldn't explain taping the cops from Conn, unless the cops waived that by telling Madison they were taping on their end?

[carrps]

44 minutes ago, blixie said:

They are actually are a two party state which is pretty weird, the podcast Crime Writers on seemed to think all the stuff w/his dad was taped in NY state, all the meetings and he lives there with his sister. But that wouldn't explain taping the cops from Conn, unless the cops waived that by telling Madison they were taping on their end?

Thanks, Blixie! I forgot he met his dad in NY.

[chediavolo]

7 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Madison was able to rule Ali out as a suspect. She arrived at school at 7:54am (and Barb was still alive at that point because she told the school attendance office that Ali wasn't feeling well as her excuse for being tardy) and she was on campus until she was signed out at 10:50am when Conway picked her up.

Even if she had managed to sneak out of school in the three hours in between, she didn't have a car so would it really have been possible for her to walk home, kill her mom, clean herself up, and walk back to school? In a rich suburban town in Connecticut, I imagine the school took attendance during every class so someone would have noticed if she had skipped class to go home and murder her mom (I grew up in a much more middle class area and they still took attendance every period and called our parents if we missed any classes).

Ali didn't leave town right away. Barb was murdered on March 3rd and Ali stayed in town until she graduated from high school in May/June. Apparently she was going to counseling with Conway so she must have been around for a little while. She left town to go backpacking through South America.

It's not uncommon for people who are grieving to want to go on vacation/leave town/get away from their normal life, especially if the deceased was someone very close to them because everything reminds them of the person who died, particularly when they lived in the same house and/or the same town. That's the table where mom served us dinner and had us blow out our birthday candles. That's her bedroom where I ran when I had nightmares. That's the sofa where we sat and watched movies together. That's the coffee shop we went to the morning she was killed. That's the park she used to take us to when we were kids. It can be overwhelming to be surrounded by memories of the person who died everywhere you go.

I’ve had many people die in my life while I was young. Parents,siblings etc. and I never felt the need to run away to another country. She still seems shady to me, it could be possible. 

[pigs-in-space]

37 minutes ago, chediavolo said:

I’ve had many people die in my life while I was young. Parents,siblings etc. and I never felt the need to run away to another country. She still seems shady to me, it could be possible. 

Were any of them murdered? Were you there when the body was discovered? Was the murder then unsolved? Was your dad a piece of shit? Did you live in a place where most people knew you as the girl whose mom was murdered?

And even if you said yes to all of these, people grieve/cope in different ways. We have confirmation she was at the school that morning around 8 AM and left a little before 11 AM (if I'm remembering my times correctly). How would she have gotten to school with her mom's car still in the driveway? She could be "shady" or not a good person, but I don't think there's any actual evidence that she's a murderer.

 

Edited December 8, 2020 by pigs-in-space

[ElectricBoogaloo]

57 minutes ago, chediavolo said:

I’ve had many people die in my life while I was young. Parents,siblings etc. and I never felt the need to run away to another country. She still seems shady to me, it could be possible. 

People deal with grief, loss, and stress in different ways. Just because Ali reacted to her mother’s murder differently than you did doesn’t make her a murderer.

On top of that, the established timeline which was confirmed by school records makes it almost impossible for Ali to have killed her mother. She couldn’t have snuck out of school undetected for almost three hours, walked all the way through town back to the house (and unseen by any witnesses), murdered Barb, dragged the body around the yard (which was difficult even for Madison as an adult male when he and the investigator recreated the crime scene), disposed of the murder weapon, and walked back to school in that amount of time. 

And if shady is the criteria for being a murderer, then the ex husband is the one who did it because he is a million times shadier than Ali. If we’re judging these people on shadiness, Conway is way shadier than Ali.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

7 hours ago, springtime said:

I understood that after her Mom died, Ali stayed in Madison to complete high school. News articles say she was a Sophomore at the time of her Mom’s murder (and a quick search has her listed on the honor roll in 2011) Seems Conway took her in and made sure she had counseling. 

With college funds depleted and no parenting from her father, Ali chose to travel after graduation. 

Thanks for that info! For some reason, I thought Ali was a senior when Barb died. The fact that she was a sophomore definitely sheds some light on Conway and her insistence on trying to make Ali look suspicious because Conway was the one who said, “Who leaves the country right after your mother is murdered?” 

Even if Ali had been a senior when Barb was murdered and if she had left town the day after her high school graduation, that would not have automatically made me suspect Ali. She wouldn’t be the first person who mourned by leaving town (and it’s totally normal for teenagers to want to leave their hometowns as soon as they finish high school). 

But the fact that Ali was a sophomore and stayed in town for two more years before leaving just shows that  Conway was exaggerating to try to make Ali look bad. Leaving your small hometown TWO YEARS after your mother’s death is not “leaving town right after the murder” as Conway tried to frame it. 

[chediavolo]

2 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

Were any of them murdered? Were you there when the body was discovered? Was the murder then unsolved? Was your dad a piece of shit? Did you live in a place where most people knew you as the girl whose mom was murdered?

And even if you said yes to all of these, people grieve/cope in different ways. We have confirmation she was at the school that morning around 8 AM and left a little before 11 AM (if I'm remembering my times correctly). How would she have gotten to school with her mom's car still in the driveway? She could be "shady" or not a good person, but I don't think there's any actual evidence that she's a murderer.

 

Yes. But you are correct. People grieve differently. 

[sistermagpie]

Finally saw this last ep and wow, I hope Madison gets over his desire to have his dad in his life at all. Even if he hadn't abandoned him as a kid, lied to him, stolen money that was rightfully his, etc., why would you want a relationship with someone where you have to listen to them tell lies all the time? "I have no idea where all documents with my handwriting on them come from! They're made up! Your mother was drunk and they just appeared out of thin air! What was I doing out of the country your whole life? Business! I was doing business! That's a thing people do. Don't you know anybody else who does business out of the country?"

Like yeah, first of all, yes, it does have to do with his childhood since you're his father and you weren't there for it (and he hardly needed his mother to give him the idea you abandoned him). And second, yes, plenty of people do business overseas. They can also talk about what they're doing. Unless they're, you know, criminals. Or con men whose "business" is just telling lies to whoever is standing in front of them at the time. Madison's too old to think "doing business" and "making deals" is your job. I thought it was funny when the dad reminded Madison that he, too, was a drunk like his mother so he knew what kind of things drunks did when they were drunk and Madison so obviously wanted to say, "Yeah, nope, never convinced the FBI to investigate somebody for money laundering with a drunk phone call."

Conway was obviously drunk in that phone call. You can see how quicky she'll turn on anybody--not just Ally, but Madison in that phone call where she started accusing him of not caring about anything but his "project," including who killed his mother. As if Conway was the one actually doing anything to solve anything besides wanting to tell everyone Ally did it because reasons. 

It's odd watching that touching family video where they're all talking like the Beach is a family full of loveable, loving stamps knowing how much shadiness so many of them were getting up to!

[Annber03]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

I thought it was funny when the dad reminded Madison that he, too, was a drunk like his mother so he knew what kind of things drunks did when they were drunk

Oh, god, when he said that my jaw dropped and I was like, "Excuse me?" Way to throw your son's addiction in his face like that, buddy. 

[sistermagpie]

Oh, and I forgot the other thing the father kept doing that drove me crazy was that gaslighting thing liars like him do. He kept talking to Madison as if he was being attacked to make himself the victim, saying things like, "I don't know why you're acting like this" to try to make Madison feel like he was being rude or mean and as if he was accusing his father of murder just by asking him something like, "So what exactly was this business I see you running here so I never saw you?" 

It was satisfying that Madison never fell for it and even figured out he could maybe get a tiny bit of info by pretending he was buying it. Just as he noted that Conway would get defensive on any subject besides how Ally did it.

[bilgistic]

No one in my family died before I was 18 but I got the fuck out as soon as I could. I went off to college and never came back except for brief visits and holidays. My mother never let me forget it, but that was part of why I wanted to get away. I took care of her and my little sisters, in large part because of my abusive father, and getting away from them all and having my own life was the best thing I was able to do for myself.

I can relate, then, to Ali needing to save herself. There's not a thing wrong with that. Her family is toxic. Just because people are your family doesn't mean they have earned or are worth your energy and time, nor do you have to take their abuse. Sometimes family just sucks and you have to break ties.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 hours ago, bilgistic said:

No one in my family died before I was 18 but I got the fuck out as soon as I could. I went off to college and never came back except for brief visits and holidays. My mother never let me forget it, but that was part of why I wanted to get away. I took care of her and my little sisters, in large part because of my abusive father, and getting away from them all and having my own life was the best thing I was able to do for myself.

I can relate, then, to Ali needing to save herself. There's not a thing wrong with that. Her family is toxic. Just because people are your family doesn't mean they have earned or are worth your energy and time, nor do you have to take their abuse. Sometimes family just sucks and you have to break ties.

I'm glad you were able to recognize that you were in a shitty situation and then get yourself out of it. People love to talk about how important family is, but that doesn't mean that they are your responsibility for the rest of your life or that you are required to take care of them no matter what selfish abusive assholes they are. I wish instead of teaching kids that family should always be your number one priority, people would teach kids that it's important to surround yourself with people who treat you with respect. Anyone who doesn't treat you well doesn't deserve your attention. Madison's father is a perfect example of the "because I'm your father" kind of guy who thinks that he gets to lie, abandon, and steal from his children simply because his sperm created them. Just because you had sex doesn't mean these human beings owe you a lifetime of putting up with your crap ass attitude. Yes, damaged people deserve sympathy but that doesn't mean you have to stick around for their terrible behavior until one of you dies.

[mamadrama]

On 12/8/2020 at 6:41 AM, chediavolo said:

I think  it was the daughter. She reminds me of a cousin of mine. A little unhinged to begin with and knock down drag out fights with the mother, used drugs and alcohol. At times she’s the sweetest most levelheaded person  and other times she’s a crazed maniac.
Why did she move to another country right after her mother was killed does this not strike people as being a little odd? It was just something about her,I wouldn’t discount her at all. 

It didn't strike me as odd at all. HerWhy the fuck would she hang around there? Her mother was dead, her father a distant asshole, and her aunt thought she was a killer. Lots of us backpacked after highschool-she just apparently found a way to support her wanderlust. I couldn't wait to backpack Europe when I turned 18. I did it several times and then wound up moving there and attending grad school. South American and European hostels are full of young Americans. Ali leaving the country after graduation isn't that much different than a child moving to another state for college. 

Edited December 9, 2020 by mamadrama

[springtime]

Conway seemed to be taking care of Ali after the murder (as she finished high school)

She probably felt abandoned when Ali left. 

[heatherchandler]

On 12/7/2020 at 4:53 PM, nexxie said:

Really want to know who called to say court was at 2 instead of in the morning - thought that info would be in the case files Madison finally got.

If they called her, the call would be on her phone.  I would think they would take a look at her call log - the phone company will usually provide that.  Did the police not request it?

 

On 12/7/2020 at 4:55 PM, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I doubt Jeffrey Hamburg is flat broke. Somebody who had so many business dealings overseas surely has some hidden off shore accounts. I don't doubt he told everyone he was broke in order to try and get out of child support payments but Barbara probably knew he had money, why else would she bother to take him to court? I noticed that Conway said if Ali hadn't pressured her mother into going after the child support, she would still be alive. Which makes me think that even Conway now thinks that Jeffrey is involved. Like if they had let go of the whole child support thing, Jeffrey wouldn't have a motive. Of course, Conway has to Conway and continue to blame Ali in some form or another.

I bet he is flat broke.  I think he probably had a lot of money, and probably moved it around to different accounts here and there, and was constantly investing, or "investing" it, and I think he lost it all.  

 

 

On 12/8/2020 at 2:26 PM, blixie said:

 

They are actually are a two party state which is pretty weird, the podcast Crime Writers on seemed to think all the stuff w/his dad was taped in NY state, all the meetings and he lives there with his sister. But that wouldn't explain taping the cops from Conn, unless the cops waived that by telling Madison they were taping on their end?

CT is a two-party state, but federal law allows knowledge by 1 party.  How does that work?  Does the federal law over-ride the CT law?

 

[iMonrey]

Quote

I’ve had many people die in my life while I was young. Parents,siblings etc. and I never felt the need to run away to another country. She still seems shady to me, it could be possible. 

She was studying something specific in Venezuela (can't remember exactly what). I'm not sure why she needed to go to school there, in particular, but it had to do with whatever she was studying. Was her boyfriend/fiance from there? They never really explained why she was down there except to say she was studying for her career. Maybe she couldn't get into any good American schools, maybe it was cheaper. Who knows. 

[nexxie]

10 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

If they called her, the call would be on her phone.  I would think they would take a look at her call log - the phone company will usually provide that.  Did the police not request it?

I had hoped a call log would be included in the police files Madison finally got, but nope. This is from a recent interview with him:

 

I want to ask about the pivotal moment where you learn the news, on camera, that someone told your mom that her court time was changed. What was going through your head at the time?

In making this, I’ve had to compartmentalize so much in order to just not be a wreck. That’s a part of me dealing with my grief and finding some finality in my mom’s death, because there’s no purpose to her death to me. Hearing that was a moment where I went home and I got really angry. And I don’t do that very often.

I got angry because, one, I don’t know that the police know that. Even now, after seeing the case files, I don’t know that the police know this detail, which is infuriating. Two, it’s like, did someone plan my mom’s death? Did someone make that call? Picturing someone deceiving my mom in order to create opportunity, it just made me really angry.

https://www.gq.com/story/murder-on-middle-beach-finale

[heatherchandler]

2 hours ago, nexxie said:

 

I got angry because, one, I don’t know that the police know that. Even now, after seeing the case files, I don’t know that the police know this detail, which is infuriating. Two, it’s like, did someone plan my mom’s death? Did someone make that call? Picturing someone deceiving my mom in order to create opportunity, it just made me really angry.

https://www.gq.com/story/murder-on-middle-beach-finale

Unbelievable that the police didn’t think of this!  The police did a terrible job.  That’s like investigating 101: who called the victim recently and why.

And none of the police on the case thought the 2:00 court time was a deception?  They need to do an investigation into the investigation!

[springtime]

Jeffrey has an older son Brian who is a doctor. Who is his Mom? (first wife?) How old was he at the time of murder?

Would they have lost money due to Barbara’s court case?

[pfk505]

On 12/8/2020 at 1:18 PM, chediavolo said:

I’ve had many people die in my life while I was young. Parents,siblings etc. and I never felt the need to run away to another country. She still seems shady to me, it could be possible. 

Actually it almost certainly is not possible, given the school records show her in at 7:54 and out at 10:50. The tiny window of opportunity, the fact that the school would have noticed her missing, the blood, the weight of the body all make it extremely unlikely. Ali strikes me as someone who has been through a lot (and had a lot of therapy) and is probably naturally a bit off (given her childhood and mental health issues) but to go from that to "yep, she murdered her mom" is a massive leap. My wife was convinced it was her as well until the last episode finally shut her up.

16 hours ago, iMonrey said:

She was studying something specific in Venezuela (can't remember exactly what). I'm not sure why she needed to go to school there, in particular, but it had to do with whatever she was studying. Was her boyfriend/fiance from there? They never really explained why she was down there except to say she was studying for her career. Maybe she couldn't get into any good American schools, maybe it was cheaper. Who knows. 

So good schools do exist outside of America, and even mediocre schools in America are expensive AF.

And they did explain, multiple times, why she went to Argentina. She got the fuck out of what must have been an extremely unpleasant and stressful environment and went as far away as she could.

Edited December 10, 2020 by pfk505

[sadie]

Wow, I found the last ep profoundly sad. I’m gonna put my vote in that the Dad killed his Mom. I just wanted to punch that smug gaslighting dick right in the face. I hope Madison never speaks to him again. Being a sperm donor doesn’t make you a father and him not even having the decency to at least say “I’m sorry for leaving you son, at the time I was only thinking about myself and I deeply regret it”, but, nope, just deny deny gaslight gaslight, rinse and repeat. That guy can go pound sand.

I truly enjoyed the moment in the hearing where the incompetent corrupt shady police realized he had taped them and you could see it dawn on the one Detective he wasn’t going to be able to lie so easily, which I 100% believe they were ready to do. So their investigation is so”hot” they can’t release the files? Really guys? 10 years later I don’t think you can keep dragging that story around as your shield against inquiry. All I felt watching that was they were paid off or criminally corrupt in some way. Just wow.

Seeing Ali get married was a bright spot. The girls been thru hell, give her some happiness.

Conway can go sit next to Dad/Jeffrey and pound sand. What a miserable excuse of a human.

I hope Madison can find some happiness, I hope he can cut ties with his family members that are toxic and get on with his life. I pray for the day we see his father in handcuffs being led to jail for murdering his mom.

 

 

[springtime]

Madison was 18 and Ali was 16. An innocent parent would’ve stepped in to be there for their children.

[MicheleinPhilly]

I binged this over the weekend. With the first 2 episodes I found myself wishing for a more experienced filmmaker to take the reins but realized that would have completely negated one of the primary purposes of this. I don't think a more objective documentarian would have secured these interviews or evidence and I also realized how important it was to witness Madison's maturation throughout the show's progression. 

His father is a GRADE A asshat and in my humble opinion, a murderer. It's telling that everything we saw/heard of Jeffrey was either archival footage or obtained surreptitiously. His "denials" smacked of "this is why they can't prove that I did it" rather than "of course I didn't do it." Every other person whether they were under a cloud of suspicion or not, looked Madison in the eye and stated unequivocally that they had nothing to do with the murder. And I'm no body language expert but I believed them. Sure, I had some doubts as each new strand was revealed but ultimately, nothing that was presented was as damning as Jeffrey's own behavior. Woe is me, I'm such a victim. GTFO with that nonsense, you selfish, lying prick. I really do wish for his own sake that Madison finds a way to cut ties with him for good.

I'm not sure what's up with the Madison PD but they certainly botched the entire investigation spectacularly. I don't know what the murder rate is like in that part of CT but everything about how they approached this read as suspect to me. Not suspect in that I think they had something to do with it, but I just don't understand how you have a primary suspect a few days after the murder as well as DNA evidence and then sit on your hands for 10 years. Something stinks in suburbia. 

Oh Aunt Conway. I sincerely hope she gets the help she so obviously needs both for her alcoholism and her abandonment and resentment issues. 

Something tells me this family won't have any problem following CDC guidelines and avoiding a big family Christmas gathering. 

[Jack Thomas]

Here’s my 2c.

I’m not offering this as positive proof of guilt, but if you’re a student of body language and facial expressions, watch Ali when Maddy asks her if she killed her mom. While she’s saying she loved Barb, she’s shaking her head “no” the entire time. She does this once more shortly after in that same interview. It’s not a sign necessarily of guilt, but it reflects that she’s being deceptive or inauthentic. It’s rather obvious if you’re paying attention. 

[Rlb8031]

On 12/8/2020 at 3:26 PM, blixie said:

They are actually are a two party state which is pretty weird, the podcast Crime Writers on seemed to think all the stuff w/his dad was taped in NY state, all the meetings and he lives there with his sister. But that wouldn't explain taping the cops from Conn, unless the cops waived that by telling Madison they were taping on their end?

I assumed that was what happened. They asked him if they could tape him when he came in, he consented and didn't tell them he was taping as well. Then he gets the benefit of taping the entirety of the conversation not just "the interview". 

[Sweet-tea]

On 11/20/2020 at 10:35 AM, bilgistic said:

Because it's always the husband, I was yelling, "He did it!" the whole time I watched this. He carefully chose his words when talking to Madison when they met at the bar: "I was somewhere else/I can't be placed at the scene/there's no DNA evidence against me." Never "I didn't do it". I fully believe he hired someone to kill Barbara. And no matter how you felt about your ex, IF YOU WERE INNOCENT, why would you not do everything to clear your name?!? He's an extreme narcissist and reminded me so much of my own father. The way he blamed Madison for his own actions—being completely absent from his son's life as if a child/young adult has any power over that dynamic. What a piece of shit.

Late to the game. I just finished watching. I agree with your assessment. The dad seems like a toxic narcissist. It bothered me how he trash-talked his ex-wife and tried to blame her and the kids for him not being a bigger presence in their lives. 

It’s a shame it’s still unsolved. 

 

Quote

So I'm a Federal Agent and my investigations are mostly white collar in nature-scams, schemes, ect.  Jill's attitude is what we deal with constantly.  Almost every person we arrest or investigate have that attitude-don't you have anything better to do?  These people are narcissists who fail to recognize that their actions hurt other people.  Jill didn't care about the people in AA or even her sister.  She even said on camera-"her sister couldn't bring in more people".  She showed no remorse at all.  She kept on talking about women supporting women.  Bullshit.

Agree. It bothered me how the women, especially Jill, kept deflecting and refused to take responsibility for their crimes. I don’t believe they didn’t know what they were doing was illegal. The would have to be complete idiots not to realize it was a pyramid scheme. 

One thing interested me: his grandfather was Sandy Beach. He is really well known in the AA circles as one of the best speakers. I’ve listened to many of his talks. I didn’t realize until I did an internet search that he actually passed away during an AA meeting. He was dedicated until the very end. 

The film also shows how alcoholism was a destructive thread that ran through their family. It affected so many members of the family. 

I wonder if he still has a relationship with his father. I wish there had at least been a statement about that before the ending credits. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by Sweet-tea