S18.E34: Boris Epshteyn; Caitlin Flanagan; Max Brooks

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Guests:  Boris Epshteyn; Caitlin Flanagan; Max Brooks

Original air date 2020.11.13

[WendyM]

So is Rudy now the boss of first-guest Jenna, Evangelical Trump Apologizer Extraordinaire? (Per tonight's news, which I assume came out after this taping.) Because those would be fun court appearances. 

[Milburn Stone]

Never a good idea to open with a guest who you could write every word of dialogue for before she says it.

[Broderbits]

Bill has got to stop with the "you're so brave to come here" speeches. Trump Cultists never miss an opportunity to spread their gospel, and this one was especially adept at ignoring Bill and talking right over him. What was the point of having her on? To feed Bill's paranoia?

[BrownBear2012]

34 minutes ago, Broderbits said:

Bill has got to stop with the "you're so brave to come here" speeches. Trump Cultists never miss an opportunity to spread their gospel, and this one was especially adept at ignoring Bill and talking right over him. What was the point of having her on? To feed Bill's paranoia?

He's still saying that to he right wing nut jobs he seems to love having on his show? I remember him saying that to Ann Coulter; Steve Bannon; Ralph Reed; Milo Yiannapoulis: Boris Epsteyn....etc. etc...they're not "brave"...they love getting this kind of attention and having Bill make a big deal out their appearances there....they sell more books and/or get more listeners to their podcasts or readers of their blogs. Good god...Bill needs to retire his schtick and move on Boomer.

[angelamh66]

I was glad Bill went after Trump’s lawyer like he did. He was more engaged and ready for her than he usually is when he has a right winger guest. BUT I hated New Rules. There were a few decent points in there but overall it was his crabby old man bit for the umpteenth time this season. I agree that Twitter isn’t the world and some of this super woke stuff is completely stupid and off putting. However, saying that the likes of Woody Allen and Louis CK shouldn’t be held to account for their actions....nah... not going there with you Bill. 

[ZoqFotPik]

2 hours ago, angelamh66 said:

BUT I hated New Rules. There were a few decent points in there but overall it was his crabby old man bit for the umpteenth time this season. I agree that Twitter isn’t the world and some of this super woke stuff is completely stupid and off putting. However, saying that the likes of Woody Allen and Louis CK shouldn’t be held to account for their actions....nah... not going there with you Bill. 

Also, regarding the hockey player, there is way, way, way, more to it than just bullying and middle school was just 4 years ago for this kid.

[brillia79]

7 hours ago, angelamh66 said:

I was glad Bill went after Trump’s lawyer like he did. He was more engaged and ready for her than he usually is when he has a right winger guest. BUT I hated New Rules. There were a few decent points in there but overall it was his crabby old man bit for the umpteenth time this season. I agree that Twitter isn’t the world and some of this super woke stuff is completely stupid and off putting. However, saying that the likes of Woody Allen and Louis CK shouldn’t be held to account for their actions....nah... not going there with you Bill. 

That last New Rules segment was pictures of people who were “cancelled” for being sexual predators or blatant racists. He used the Anne Hathaway thing as his cover.

I’m also sure Black Lives Matter will love these panelists wanting to use them as human shields when the Proud Boys rally in DC today and try to subvert democracy, but how these same panelists think they should shut up about defunding the same police departments that participate with (off duty)/encourage the Proud Boys (on duty), otherwise Abigail Fucking Spanberger might not get re-elected by the moderate who expect her to ignore police violence that targets black people. Who also expect her to ignore any other left of center legislation.

[Robert Lynch]

I had to fast forward the lawyer. She was beyond annoying, all smiles and such. I was glad her part was over. 

Edited November 14, 2020 by Robert Lynch

[meowmommy]

I wanted to slap the smirk off that smug beyotch's face.

[BrownBear2012]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

It seems like we say this every week, but what is the bloody point of having on some Trump mouthpiece to spew lies and propaganda? Especially when Bill is so inept at countering it? Even Bill's best efforts fall short. He lets these people get away with what they're saying by just giving up and moving on. It's maddening. He can confront them with all the quotes, statistics and facts he wants but they just ignore him and repeat their lies so he gives up and moves onto some other point instead of pressing them on one issue. This "legal votes" thing is just a rehash of the same "thousands of illegal votes" claim Trump made in 2016. This lawyer kept saying they had all these witnesses and evidence - so why haven't they presented any of it in these court cases? Why didn't Bill ask her that? Nail her down on just one issue, Bill! Gah.

I adore Max Brooks but I don't think it helps anything to pour gasoline on the dumpster fire of Bill's paranoia.

And yeah, final New Rule seemed like a rinse and repeat of last week's. Republicans won't vote for Democrats because we're all special snowflakes. Just feels like an offshoot of his Berkley grievance. 

Exactly. 

I don't watch anymore and haven't in about year and half...it sounds like the same stuff he always talks about or complains about...nothing new here. It is interesting to see that he still is harping on sexual predators like Louis C.K. and Woody Allen being "canceled"...he's always been resentful of the #MeToo movement. That's one of the things that led me to stop watching him. Resentful, angry and bitter...Bill is a  misogynist and he has been accused of sexual harassment himself. Rose McGowan recounted an appearance she had on his "Politically Incorrect" show where he made an explicitly sexual comment to her on set.  Google it. I'm sure there are others out there that have had similar issues with Bill but won't come forward due to his wealth and power in Hollywood.  Louis C.K. was just a gross pervert and his behavior was well known in comedic circles...I'm sure Bill thinks Harvey Weinstein is innocent also but doesn't say anything public to that affect because that would be professional suicide. Bill is quickly becoming a relic...a dinosaur. He has become what he accused Trump of being a few years ago..."a 50's kind of guy"...someone whose views on women are like those of the 1950's "Mad Men" era. Bill really does hold onto a grudge for a long time as you mentioned the Berkley grievance...good god that was years ago and he's still butthurt about it? No one under thirty watches you Bill...sorry, your days as the ingenue upstart politcal satirist are way over.

[BrownBear2012]

5 hours ago, brillia79 said:

That last New Rules segment was pictures of people who were “cancelled” for being sexual predators or blatant racists. He used the Anne Hathaway thing as his cover.

I’m also sure Black Lives Matter will love these panelists wanting to use them as human shields when the Proud Boys rally in DC today and try to subvert democracy, but how these same panelists think they should shut up about defunding the same police departments that participate with (off duty)/encourage the Proud Boys (on duty), otherwise Abigail Fucking Spanberger might not get re-elected by the moderate who expect her to ignore police violence that targets black people. Who also expect her to ignore any other left of center legislation.

"Defund the police" should be reworded...the Trump campaign used that to clobber Democrats in places like Ohio, South Carolina etc....over and over again. Wordsmithing is important in campaigns...ask Frank Luntz. I think "Defund the Police" should be reworded to "De militarize the Police". Then start the discussion of putting funding towards social workers and mental health professionals so that the police can do their primary jobs better. The build up of weaponry and the militarization of local police all over the country is not the solution and that has been proven...we can a make a case for changing the police in a way that makes sense and doesn't scare people that their local police will not have funding to pay their salaries. 

[Victor the Crab]

Someone needs to tell that ignorant bunghole Bill that if Americans were truly fed up with "wokeness" "cancel culture" and "social justice warriors", then the results of the 2020 presidential election would have been flipped! And Joe Biden would have come out the biggest loser of them all.

Bill's hideous attitude would be welcomed in the current and soon to be ousted White House administration and to all those idiots attending those right wing rallies, but not to those he thinks he's trying to reach out to. Between attempting to shame the left and demanding that they reach out to the right, Bill has transformed himself into one of those obnoxious right wing assholes he used to criticize, and he doesn't even realize it yet!

HBO, explain yourselves as to why you extended this piece of shit's contract?!!

[NeenerNeener]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

He can confront them with all the quotes, statistics and facts he wants but they just ignore him and repeat their lies

I don't think anyone has come up with a successful counter for a "Gish Gallop" yet, which is why all the Trumpsters start calling out talking points like they're livestock auctioneers whenever they see a microphone. Maybe Mayor Pete will figure one out sometime in the next 4 years.

Edited November 14, 2020 by NeenerNeener

[lovinbob]

1 hour ago, Victor the Crab said:

Between attempting to shame the left and demanding that they reach out to the right, Bill has transformed himself into one of those obnoxious right wing assholes he used to criticize, and he doesn't even realize it yet!

HBO, explain yourselves as to why you extended this piece of shit's contract?!!

Bill will fight that statement till the end but I think you are closer to correct than he is.

Can you imagine Bill's resentment if he did get canceled? It would just "prove" his ranting points.

[Broderbits]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

It seems like we say this every week, but what is the bloody point of having on some Trump mouthpiece to spew lies and propaganda? Especially when Bill is so inept at countering it? Even Bill's best efforts fall short. He lets these people get away with what they're saying by just giving up and moving on.

He still thinks he can "reason" with them, and when that fails he's got nothing. For someone who understands perfectly well how religion works, he sure is acting clueless about the Trump Cult.

[Milburn Stone]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

It seems like we say this every week, but what is the bloody point of having on some Trump mouthpiece to spew lies and propaganda? Especially when Bill is so inept at countering it? Even Bill's best efforts fall short. He lets these people get away with what they're saying by just giving up and moving on. It's maddening.

You have to admit, it was hilarious when he opened with "I hope we can avoid talking points."

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Folks, Please do not post broad statements about supporters of any politicians or political groups.  Stick to the talking points on the show and specific groups or people mentioned on the show. 

[BrownBear2012]

8 hours ago, Victor the Crab said:

Someone needs to tell that ignorant bunghole Bill that if Americans were truly fed up with "wokeness" "cancel culture" and "social justice warriors", then the results of the 2020 presidential election would have been flipped! And Joe Biden would have come out the biggest loser of them all.

Bill's hideous attitude would be welcomed in the current and soon to be ousted White House administration and to all those idiots attending those right wing rallies, but not to those he thinks he's trying to reach out to. Between attempting to shame the left and demanding that they reach out to the right, Bill has transformed himself into one of those obnoxious right wing assholes he used to criticize, and he doesn't even realize it yet!

HBO, explain yourselves as to why you extended this piece of shit's contract?!!

Spot on!!! Bill has gradually in the last two or three years morphed into a right wing libertarian...clearly he is not the same guy he was before Trump became president. Maybe his wealth and the Hollywood/Beverly Hills bubble he lives in and his life as 66 year old with no partner or family has made him sour and bitter. He abhors Millinnials and Gen Z, loathes children, his commentaries on marriage are cynical and sarcastic and his attacks on Liberals almost sound like a Rush Limbuagh monologue. He's clearly out of touch with the young voters that came out droves to vote and mocks them incessantly. I cannot understand either why HBO extended his tired old show with a dated format and grumpy Boomer host...I can only think that they just don't have a clue what they could replace his show with in that slot on Friday night. 

[link417]

11 minutes ago, BrownBear2012 said:

Spot on!!! Bill has gradually in the last two or three years morphed into a right wing libertarian...clearly he is not the same guy he was before Trump became president. Maybe his wealth and the Hollywood/Beverly Hills bubble he lives in and his life as 66 year old with no partner or family has made him sour and bitter. He abhors Millinnials and Gen Z, loathes children, his commentaries on marriage are cynical and sarcastic and his attacks on Liberals almost sound like a Rush Limbuagh monologue. He's clearly out of touch with the young voters that came out droves to vote and mocks them incessantly. I cannot understand either why HBO extended his tired old show with a dated format and grumpy Boomer host...I can only think that they just don't have a clue what they could replace his show with in that slot on Friday night. 

Except (presumably) the ones he dates. He’s every old-man trope rolled into one.

So much word to this quoted post, along with all the others who called out Bill’s tired schtick. He had a kernel of truth in New Rules that he blew way out of proportion. I thought I realized why when he brought up the “running speakers off college campuses” bit — of course he’s still salty about that, what a child. But I hadn’t known about the Rose McGowan allegation (thanks, @BrownBear2012 — he’s such a creep) so it now makes even more sense that this isn’t about him being resentful, it’s about his own self-preservation. He just needs to go away already.

Kudos to @NeenerNeener for the livestock auctioneer analogy — that is exactly what Ellis, et al. sound like when they rattle off their talking points like that.

[arachne]

11 hours ago, BrownBear2012 said:

I cannot understand either why HBO extended his tired old show with a dated format and grumpy Boomer host...I can only think that they just don't have a clue what they could replace his show with in that slot on Friday night. 

Nice to know there's always John Oliver on standby. Maybe change the show's name to This Week Tonight, but I think it's doable. 

Berkeley is to Bill what 9/11/01 was to Dennis Miller. Neither of them will ever grow out of it. 

I've watched this show from the beginning and will likely hang on till its bitter end, but it's become painful to watch. I'm glad whenever there's a break.

About this week's show: I noticed there was practically no audience reaction to anything the Trump lawyer said. Were they told to shut up, or was it just the lack of audience? 

[burghgal]

21 hours ago, BrownBear2012 said:

"Defund the police" should be reworded...the Trump campaign used that to clobber Democrats in places like Ohio, South Carolina etc....over and over again. Wordsmithing is important in campaigns...ask Frank Luntz. I think "Defund the Police" should be reworded to "De militarize the Police". Then start the discussion of putting funding towards social workers and mental health professionals so that the police can do their primary jobs better. The build up of weaponry and the militarization of local police all over the country is not the solution and that has been proven...we can a make a case for changing the police in a way that makes sense and doesn't scare people that their local police will not have funding to pay their salaries. 

I was thinking it should be "Improve Police Engagement" or "Strengthen Communuty/Police Interaction"  than just abbreviated it IPE or SCPI.  Democrats are bad at Marketing and need to understand the one size fits all approach costs them votes.

There is a point to be made, but Bill just sounds whiney making it all the time. Use facts, figures and case studies....it helps

Edited November 15, 2020 by burghgal

[lovinbob]

1 hour ago, burghgal said:

I was thinking it should be "Improve Police Engagement" or "Strengthen Communuty/Police Interaction"  than just abbreviated it IPE or SCPI.  Democrats are bad at Marketing and need to understand the one size fits all approach costs them votes.

There is a point to be made, but Bill just sounds whiney making it all the time. Use facts, figures and case studies....it helps

I agree that "Defund the Police" is a problematic slogan but it is not one that the Dems came up with; I believe this generated from the BLM movement. While I think it hurts Dems in some places, I think it behooves white democrats to take themselves out of the center of the argument for a change. Bill seems completely incapable of doing that. 

[ShellsandCheese]

6 hours ago, lovinbob said:

I agree that "Defund the Police" is a problematic slogan but it is not one that the Dems came up with; I believe this generated from the BLM movement. While I think it hurts Dems in some places, I think it behooves white democrats to take themselves out of the center of the argument for a change. Bill seems completely incapable of doing that. 

Yes! You are spot on. I was a little disappointed that Max, Caitlin, and Bill were frothing at the mouth talking about the working class the whole time, when they meant the white working class. I'm over that obsession. As a group white people have been voting for Republicans by a 60-40 margin since Johnson. It's time for the Dems to stop trying to cater to a group of people who have rejected them time and and time and time again. 

[Robert Lynch]

And Bill should quit the open arms to Trump supporters. As if that would work at all. I don't get this kumbuya mantra he has all of a sudden. Makes zero sense.

[izabella]

I wish Bill, or either of the panelists, had corrected the lawyer when she lied and said Hillary Clinton "still has not conceded" the race to Trump.  Flat out lie.

Bill really needs to stop bringing guests on that he can't keep up with when they  talk over him and spin their lies.  He started off saying he hoped it could be an honest discussion without talking points, and he should have cut her off when she proved she was incapable of that.

[deirdra]

2 minutes ago, izabella said:

I wish Bill, or either of the panelists, had corrected the lawyer when she lied and said Hillary Clinton "still has not conceded" the race to Trump.  Flat out lie.

I think Bill refuted it but she was talking over him at the time.

[sugarbaker design]

On 11/14/2020 at 11:49 PM, BrownBear2012 said:

He abhors Millinnials and Gen Z, loathes children, his commentaries on marriage are cynical and sarcastic

I'm with Bill on these.

On 11/14/2020 at 11:49 PM, BrownBear2012 said:

his attacks on Liberals almost sound like a Rush Limbuagh monologue.

But this is uforgivable.

[lovinbob]

Another thing I have been thinking about -- Latinx. It is just not true that nobody uses it except stupid white people (I think that's basically what Bill said). I have definitely heard people of Mexican, Dominican, Puerto Rican descent criticize its use, but plenty of others use it. I don't know who Bill's talking to but he doesn't get to consult his limited sample and then make the rules! 

[BrownBear2012]

On 11/15/2020 at 9:18 PM, ShellsandCheese said:

Yes! You are spot on. I was a little disappointed that Max, Caitlin, and Bill were frothing at the mouth talking about the working class the whole time, when they meant the white working class. I'm over that obsession. As a group white people have been voting for Republicans by a 60-40 margin since Johnson. It's time for the Dems to stop trying to cater to a group of people who have rejected them time and and time and time again. 

Exactly.

[SuzieSioux]

On 11/17/2020 at 6:06 AM, lovinbob said:

Another thing I have been thinking about -- Latinx. It is just not true that nobody uses it except stupid white people (I think that's basically what Bill said). I have definitely heard people of Mexican, Dominican, Puerto Rican descent criticize its use, but plenty of others use it. I don't know who Bill's talking to but he doesn't get to consult his limited sample and then make the rules! 

There was a survey done recently (by progressives) that showed 98% of Latinos polled reject the term Latinx. 'Latinx' has generally been considered an offensive way for anglophone Americans to try and "fix" Spanish to be more in line with English grammar rules. In a way it could be argued it's "language colonialism". Many people out there seem to struggle with the idea that grammatical gender is not the same thing as socio-biological gender.

https://thinknowtweets.medium.com/progressive-latino-pollster-trust-me-latinos-do-not-identify-with-latinx-63229adebcea

Edited November 18, 2020 by SuzieSioux

[link417]

3 hours ago, SuzieSioux said:

There was a survey done recently (by progressives) that showed 98% of Latinos polled reject the term Latinx. 'Latinx' has generally been considered an offensive way for anglophone Americans to try and "fix" Spanish to be more in line with English grammar rules. In a way it could be argued it's "language colonialism". Many people out there seem to struggle with the idea that grammatical gender is not the same thing as socio-biological gender.

https://thinknowtweets.medium.com/progressive-latino-pollster-trust-me-latinos-do-not-identify-with-latinx-63229adebcea

I know the sample is supposed to be representative of Latinxs across the nation, but still — it’s only 508 people. And as it’s a relatively new term, it would be interesting to compare its rate of adoption to the term Latino. 

Most of the Latinx people I follow on social media (in the progressive spaces I frequent) use that term, so that’s what I use as well. Unlike Bill and his interaction with John Leguizamo, I wouldn’t cause a stir with someone just because they prefer to use a term that has not been widely adopted yet.

[ShellsandCheese]

On 11/17/2020 at 11:49 PM, link417 said:

I know the sample is supposed to be representative of Latinxs across the nation, but still — it’s only 508 people. And as it’s a relatively new term, it would be interesting to compare its rate of adoption to the term Latino. 

Most of the Latinx people I follow on social media (in the progressive spaces I frequent) use that term, so that’s what I use as well. Unlike Bill and his interaction with John Leguizamo, I wouldn’t cause a stir with someone just because they prefer to use a term that has not been widely adopted yet.

Yes. In the progressive spaces you frequent. I live in the Midwest and I have yet to encounter a Latino/Latina who likes the term Latinx. It's trying to fix or solve a problem that doesn't exist. Spanish is a gendered language. You just cannot borrow from it and make up a word to appear more inclusive. Here's another one from August of this year:

Latinx Not Preferred Term Among Hispanics

Edited November 20, 2020 by ShellsandCheese

[sistermagpie]

23 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Yes. In the progressive spaces you frequent. I live in the Midwest and I have yet to encounter a Latino/Latina who likes the term Latinx. It's trying to fix or solve a problem that doesn't exist. Spanish is a gendered language. You just cannot borrow from it and make up a word to appear more inclusive. Here's another one from August of this year:

Latinx Not Preferred Term Among Hispanics

But still, it's not like there's a lot of one-issue voters whose issue is whether or not they think other people who vote for a candidate might use the term in their progressive circles because they include the smaller percentage of Latin voters who do use the term. Is that really the key to why somebody voted for, say, Trump over Biden? Bill pretty much thinks anything that isn't strictly binary with men on one side and women on the other is at best silly and at worse an excuse for blaming the victim when people become Nazis.

Edited November 21, 2020 by sistermagpie

[ShellsandCheese]

31 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

But still, it's not like there's a lot of one-issue voters whose issue is whether or not they think other people who vote for a candidate might use the term in their progressive circles because they include the smaller percentage of Latin voters who do use the term. Is that really the key to why somebody voted for, say, Trump over Biden? Bill pretty much thinks anything that isn't strictly binary with men on one side and women on the other is at best silly and at worse an excuse for blaming the victim when people become Nazis.

They are, in fact, a lot of one-issue or single issue voters but that's outside the scope of this thread. I will say that it's not just one thing, it's a bunch of little things that add up; and as the saying goes, perception is reality.

ETA: I removed a large portion of my response in order to avoid violating any rules. 

Edited November 21, 2020 by ShellsandCheese

[sistermagpie]

 

37 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

They are, in fact, a lot of one-issue or single issue voters but that's outside the scope of this thread. I will say that it's not just one thing, it's a bunch of little things that add up; and as the saying goes, perception is reality.

If someone is constantly being bombarded with information that says it's the left that is not tolerant, it's the left that has gone overboard with political correctness, it's the left that's pushing cancel culture for anyone who puts a foot wrong, etc. And then one day someone scolds you for saying Latino or Latina instead of Latinx? Well...... 

No, I know there are single issue voters. I was saying I didn't think there were single issue voters whose single issue was whether somebody voting for a candidate might have ever used the term Latinx. 

But the bigger point for Bill's show is that this whole idea that pushing the idea that if liberals stop using terms that bother conservatives, then Republicans will support them, is just, imo, a bizarre fantasy that does nothing more than make everybody more conservative. Because yes, the subtext that all these "little things that add up" to that's the the single issue problem that conservative media is always talking about--not people actually being scolded by liberals in their daily life.

 

Edited November 21, 2020 by sistermagpie

[deirdra]

I think Bill was saying that the liberal elites should not use terms for people who they blindly assume are all-issue liberals, who would never describe themselves as Latinx because their gender is an essence of their being.  Also, many came from communist or socialist dictatorships and don't agree with all the big-government policies, nor do they want their businesses locked down and killed off by one-size-fits-all COVID restrictions.  Most people are not 1-issue voters, but have a handful of issues that affect their daily lives and vote for the candidate that agrees with as many of those issues as possible.  

Edited November 21, 2020 by deirdra

[link417]

On 11/20/2020 at 12:16 AM, ShellsandCheese said:

Yes. In the progressive spaces you frequent. I live in the Midwest and I have yet to encounter a Latino/Latina who likes the term Latinx. It's trying to fix or solve a problem that doesn't exist. Spanish is a gendered language. You just cannot borrow from it and make up a word to appear more inclusive. Here's another one from August of this year:

Latinx Not Preferred Term Among Hispanics

I’m just seeing this — never mind the Spanish is a living language and languages naturally change over time with societal changes. We’ll just have to agree to disagree, since there are plenty of Latinx who *do* believe there is a problem, which is why they are using their solution.