S01.E11: Incarceration in the United States

[maraleia]

Loved the video about the Commonwealth Games and the prison segment. John is on fire as always.

[Fremde Frau]

One hour ago, from their Twitter account:

On tonight's show: The crisis in Gaza, the decay of America's prisons, and a big finish to help stave off nightmares.

 

I hope the first two of those stories will make it on YouTube.

[possibilities]

How awesome was that? Could it even be more awesome?

[Lantern7]

I dunno how awesome it is that Sesame Street is now covering children with imprisoned parents. On the other hand, it is funny to see how Anderson Cooper has aged in eight years as compared to John Oliver.

[The Luvly Junkie]

I think both Anderson Cooper and Ollie-Scone aged gracefully but in different methods.

 

Who knew you can add hints of racial profiling into a Sesame Street segment? Both adorable and cathartic with a good ol' song to bring tonight's episode home. (By the way, IMO Ollie can sing)

[possibilities]

I should clarify what I thought was awesome. I got a little excited and left my analytic brain behind.

 

I love that Oliver takes up less-covered subjects of importance, and brings them to the fore. He admits it's horrifying, but he presses on, and somehow manages to maintain his joie de vivre. I don't get to the end of the show exhausted and ready to numb out; I feel re-energized.

 

This is the magic of it: to not pull punches, to never surrender the facts, but to stave off the despair that leads to burn out and giving up.

 

I used to write letters for Progressive Secretary (a progressive letter-writing service that drafts letters to lawmakers and other people in power, and offers them to our members to send under their own name). Sometimes I would be asked to write a letter imploring some governor or other to grant clemency to someone on death row. In the course of researching the case, invariably there would be gross violations of civil rights, evidence would be blatantly lacking, procedures would not have been followed, counsel would be absent, and the person to be executed was always a person of color, almost always Black. And despite that our organization and others had taken up the cause, the stay of execution would never come.

 

It was depressing and upsetting and enraging and the mainstream media would never even cover it.

 

Burn-out is a huge problem. When you work on difficult causes and projects that seem to have no end, you need something to keep you there and not wanting to kill yourself or drop out or look away. The more important it is and the more passionate you feel, the harder it can be to slog away with no foreseeable end, because it hurts.

 

So for LWT to somehow bring up these kinds of topics, and not soft-pedal it, to express the horror and outrage and yet still not make me tired.... It's really a service.

 

And I just love that there are probably people watching who aren't familiar with all the issues he raises. I know for sure there are things he's talked about that I knew nothing about, like the "deaths for soccer stadium construction." The way he raises a different issue every week, he's likely not just preaching to the choir all the time, and it's not just self-congratulatory rote catharsis on a weekly basis (which more and more I find TDS is, because Stewart flogs the same issues and the same villains all the time). So I get to imagine that when he features one of my personal favorite/most enraging issues, new people will learn about it and maybe become allies, and not just shut down because of compassion fatigue/bad news overload. Because LWT is somehow not depressing me more, it's making me optimistic that it's not depressing everybody else who watches, either. That's what I found awesome.

 

Also, I had no idea Sesame Street was trying to help kids deal with the imprisonment epidemic, but I'm glad to know someone is. When I was a kid, all I remember was stuff about counting, learning the alphabet, and basic pattern recognition, with maybe a little character-based mini-drama thrown in, to make it friendly enough that you'd sit through the number and letter lessons..

[Hanahope]

So if the Commonwealth Games includes countries that used to be part of the British Commonwealth, but aren't anymore, why isn't the US there?  Didn't the US (i.e. at least the original 13 colonies) used to be part of the British Empire?  I seem to recall we fought a little war over that.  I suppose they don't invite the US because we'd dominate that too.

 

After just binging the last 2 seasons of Orange is the New Black last week, John's big rant on prisons was very timely for me.  Certainly that show depicts a minimum security prison (except for that one episode in Chicago), but at least there's hints of these issues there too (like the disproportionate sentencing to non-white criminals, having to sometimes use old food). 

 

Seriously, that female prisoner would not make up being treated with sugar.  How would she even know about sugar being used to treat wounds before antibiotics were discovered?  She clearly had to know it was sugar because why would she pick that out of the air without any basis.  I would expect the only people who knew that (at least before this show) were history buffs and medical professionals (as part of their training would include medical history) and you're not going to find all that many of those in prison.

 

And running prisons like a business is just as bad a running government as a business.  THAT IS NOT THEIR PURPOSE.  Neither prisons nor government are meant to make money, they are there to serve the public.  They should essentially be "non-profit" enterprises, bringing in the only money they need to operate.  To the extent there is some extra money, then provide more services, whether that means to hire more people, provide better food/shelter/other amenities, provide raises to the employees so you retain them and get better work out of them, etc.  This whole treating prisons as businesses, sending more people to the prisons to generate more money for the owners/shareholders is exactly what got a whole bunch of judges in hot water in Pennsylvania.

 

Running these things like a business sickens me the way that insurance companies manage health insurance, making "fiscally responsible" decisions as to whether to authorize a particular service or medical treatment.  To think that someone's freedom, life, health, well-being is determined on whether an extra $0.10 per share is going to be distributed the next financial quarter is just horrifying.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Hanahope

[iMonrey]

Oh, John - time has not ravaged you. If anything it's fixed your hair. 

[Athena]

So if the Commonwealth Games includes countries that used to be part of the British Commonwealth, but aren't anymore, why isn't the US there?  Didn't the US (i.e. at least the original 13 colonies) used to be part of the British Empire?  I seem to recall we fought a little war over that.  I suppose they don't invite the US because we'd dominate that too.

 

When they formed the Commonwealth, most of the countries were still under British rule as dominions and part of the Empire. Those who weren't such as Australia, New Zealand, and Canada still had strong ties to the United Kingdom. Many Britons emigrated to these countries and felt close to that part of the world so the Commonwealth was formed to link it up. Many of the Commonwealth countries did not engage in a full out war to gain Independence, many were "let go" during the collapse of colonialism post-1945 or became countries earlier. The US had also ceded from British influence over a hundred years before they even thought of the Commonwealth. The US can still apply for membership, it's very easy but it's not exactly like there are a lot of perks.

[Grammaeryn]

So if the Commonwealth Games includes countries that used to be part of the British Commonwealth, but aren't anymore, why isn't the US there?  Didn't the US (i.e. at least the original 13 colonies) used to be part of the British Empire?  I seem to recall we fought a little war over that.  I suppose they don't invite the US because we'd dominate that too.

 

We were never part of the British empire. The Commonwealth came into being in 1949. Canada still has Queen Elizabeth on its currency. So maybe you can tell you're not in the Commonwealth by currency?

[Hanahope]

Thanks for the history information on the Commonwealth!

[attica]

it's not exactly like there are a lot of perks.

 

I'd be for it if it meant I could get NHS and a 1-pound coin.

[ganesh]

When I was a kid, all I remember was stuff about counting, learning the alphabet, and basic pattern recognition, with maybe a little character-based mini-drama thrown in, to make it friendly enough that you'd sit through the number and letter lessons.

 

The only 'heavy' thing I remember from SS when I was a kid was when Mr. Hooper died and they dealt with it straight up. 

 

I was pretty surprised that they're dealing with kids who have parents in jail, but in hindsight, I think that's probably a good idea.

[trow125]

Thanks for the history information on the Commonwealth!

 

You're not the only one who wondered that -- I spent 15 minutes on Wikipedia after the show reading about the Commonwealth, and why countries like India, which didn't exactly part from Britain as friends, are still participating in the Games. LWT really is educational!

[Hanahope]

why countries like India, which didn't exactly part from Britain as friends,

 

That actually occurred to me when I read the post about how the CG includes countries who left on good terms, were released from the empire, etc., and thinking that I thought India fought a war over being a 'colony' too, but then I wasn't sure if India was participating in the CG.

 

I love how LWT not only gives us Americans more information about non-US events, but also takes on these issues that aren't very widely known, like the prison privatization issue.  Definitely a great educational and entertaining show.

[Wilbur Whateley]

Putting on my history-nerd hat here ...  Somebody above said we were never part of the British Empire - that's not quite true.  The thirteen colonies were the major part of what's known as the First British Empire; most of what's the Commonwealth now were part of what's known as the Second British Empire, mostly acquired post-1783.

 

Notice the other major former British colony that's not part of the Commonwealth - the Republic of Ireland.

 

Rhodesia revolted against the British in the sixties, trying to maintain white control.  As part of the transition to black majority rule, Britain made it very briefly become a colony again and then granted it independence according to proper procedure. (It's known as Zimbabwe today.)   It would be ... interesting ... if that was what we would have to do if we wanted to join the Commonwealth!

 

 

 

(Edited - twice! - for clarity & accuracy.)

Edited July 21, 2014 by Wilbur Whateley

[dusang]

Oh, John - time has not ravaged you. If anything it's fixed your hair. 

 

Seriously, I don't understand why it took him eight years to get a damn haircut!!  (Also, I kind of love his clothes on LWT -- the red checked shirt a few weeks ago?  Amazing.)

 

I love how LWT not only gives us Americans more information about non-US events, but also takes on these issues that aren't very widely known, like the prison privatization issue.  Definitely a great educational and entertaining show.

 

The only other time I've heard about the prison population issue is watching a documentary called How to Make Money Selling Drugs -- it is so engaging and informative, I highly recommend it.  I saw it at a film festival and the director, producer, and some of the subjects were in the audience and did a post-show Q&A.  One of the subjects pointed out that, as part of the privatization contract, the government guarantees a minimum occupancy.  So basically there is no desire to win/end the War on Drugs because they still need all those poor bastards to stay in lockup.

Edited July 21, 2014 by dusang

[Grammaeryn]

Putting on my history-nerd hat here ...  Somebody above said we were never part of the British Empire - that's not quite true.  The thirteen colonies were the major part of what's known as the First British Empire; most of what's the Commonwealth now were part of what's known as the Second British Empire, mostly acquired post-1783.

 

I meant the British Empire by 1949 when the British Commonwealth came to be. History major class of 1999, thank you.

[Athena]

Notice the other major former British colony that's not part of the Commonwealth - the Republic of Ireland.

 

To clarify, Ireland was actually part of the Old Commonwealth, but became a Republic which excluded it from the Commonwealth. They were happy to leave (not a surprise), but other countries wanted to be republics including India. When India became a republic, the Commonwealth charter was changed to allow republics to be member states.

[roamyn]

While it's true that many, many prisoners make up shit, I do believe there's no way this woman would've known the history of surgery.

However, it is now known that some formerly archaic practices actually work better. Like leeches, and bloodletting in certain cases. Perhaps using sugar as both a binding agent & an antibiotic works effectively at a much lower cost.

I have no objection to that, as long as we're not guinea pigging.

I also think California's 3strikes, ur out, is a HORRIBLE idea. Once I was watching that show where they take at-risk kids to prisons (can't think of the name), and this one man - maybe mid 30's who had been convicted a 3rd time for burglary & was in prison for the rest of his life - he was telling story abt how he'd been raped. I've never seen a more broken man, mentally. He tried to kill himself numerous times. It was so sad.

[mtlchick]

The fact that the director of federal prisons had his public take down by Stuart freakin' Smalley has rocked my world.

[Fremde Frau]

I loved the irony of his audience laughing at the rape jokes that he was criticizing, before it dawned on them.

 

The jokes were few and far between on this one (until the puppet finale). It was more like a Maddow investigative segment than comedy. I was expecting more on racism, but I appreciated what he covered and how he covered it. It hit close to home for me, since my oldest brother had once been incarcerated (in Japan), for getting mixed up with the Hiroshima yakuza when he was young. I was only twelve to fourteen at the time, but I remember writing him letters (I wasn't allowed to visit). He never talked about his experience when he got out, but it was an incredibly rough time for everyone and mostly for him. He felt completely alienated from everyone, and we felt alienated from him. I remember being frightened of him, and ashamed of being frightened, and he didn't seem to know how to talk to any of us normally anymore. Nobody helped us on our end, and nobody helped him find his way out of that space, psychologically. He finally found some peace, but the prison system there (and how he was treated here as an ex-con) was damn sure never about rehabilitation.

 

I don't know why I just let all of that out. I'm sorry. Blab, blab... Why do so many people in this country swear by privatization? Less regulation, more privatization, and that will solve all inequality, they say. Yeah. Because that's how it works out whenever it's given the chance...

 

Anyway, great show. The Sesame Street song at the end was sublime.

[Athena]

@Fremde Frau Thank you for sharing though. I think your story does emphasize that children and relatives of those who are incarcerated do need support and compassion. In a large society with such a ridiculously high number of prisoners such as the United States, the SS segment does make a lot of sense. It also teaches kids to be empathetic to other children who have incarcerated family members.

 

Aramark catered my university's food and it was pretty bad quality food. No maggots, but it really is a bad corporation.

[Fremde Frau]

Thank you, Athena. I don't usually go on like that. The Sesame Street segment I think was one of their perfect bits: it was both satire, for the adults, and honestly insightful and educational, for any kids watching. There is such damage in how the prison system creates and maintains a culture of abandonment. Especially given how institutionalized racism conditions younger generations to interpret the environmental background and individual motivations of crime differently depending on the race of the criminal, this encourages a culture where the privileged don't examine the underlying problems of poverty and systemic failures of education, public services, healthcare, etc., and instead abandon millions of people as if they are destined for crime, if not already behind bars. John said it so well in just that one brief line: "prisoners are people."

[dusang]

However, it is now known that some formerly archaic practices actually work better. Like leeches, and bloodletting in certain cases. Perhaps using sugar as both a binding agent & an antibiotic works effectively at a much lower cost.

 

What struck me about her description was the suggestion that they were actually using take-out packages of sugar from McDonald's or something.  Like they were SO UNFUNDED they couldn't even buy an actual supply of sugar.

 

 

Aramark catered my university's food and it was pretty bad quality food. No maggots, but it really is a bad corporation.

 

The running joke in Kingston, Ontario is that the same catering service supplies the cafeterias at the Kingston Penitentiary and Queens University -- but the KP is on a higher quality meal plan.

[attica]

Perhaps using sugar as both a binding agent & an antibiotic works effectively at a much lower cost.

 

And if it's brown sugar, a lovely basting sauce!

[BusyOctober]

 

The running joke in Kingston, Ontario is that the same catering service supplies the cafeterias at the Kingston Penitentiary and Queens University -- but the KP is on a higher quality meal plan.

When I was in college I worked in the Dining Commons as part of work-study program.  One particularly slow day while on the hot dog station, I started reading the huge Costco-sized box of hot dogs.  It read "Grade D but edible".  We all know hot dogs are not made from the finest cuts of meat, but what the hell is "Grade D" made of???  This made me curious so I did a little research after my shift. I discovered the Massachusetts State Government offices, Prisons, Public Schools and the State Colleges/Universities received their food supplies from the same company.  However, the government was on top of the quality charts, then the prisons got the next best grade of meat and dairy products.  The schools & colleges got the rest/last pick. After that, any time a politician from either party says they are "doing fill in the blank for the children" I roll my jaded eyes.

[SnideAsides]

The Commonwealth is distinct from the British Empire though. The Queen is its head, but it's an arbitrary designation at this point and once she finally dies there'll be a vote for her replacement rather than Charles automatically taking over. (That said, the Commonwealth is artificially inflated by treating the UK as four distinct countries - England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland - and letting its various island territories all compete separately at the games, so he'll probably win the vote anyway.)

 

I echo the show's confusion with how the games are still a thing. Considering 18 out of 21 host cities are in the UK, Australia, New Zealand, and Canada, and the three that weren't (one each in Jamaica, Malaysia, and India) were each roundly criticised, it's really surprising they bother.

[Grammaeryn]

When I was in college I worked in the Dining Commons as part of work-study program.  One particularly slow day while on the hot dog station, I started reading the huge Costco-sized box of hot dogs.  It read "Grade D but edible".  We all know hot dogs are not made from the finest cuts of meat, but what the hell is "Grade D" made of???  This made me curious so I did a little research after my shift. I discovered the Massachusetts State Government offices, Prisons, Public Schools and the State Colleges/Universities received their food supplies from the same company.  However, the government was on top of the quality charts, then the prisons got the next best grade of meat and dairy products.  The schools & colleges got the rest/last pick. After that, any time a politician from either party says they are "doing fill in the blank for the children" I roll my jaded eyes.

 

Holy crap, did you go to UMass? Back when I was a student, we had Grade D meat. Now UMass has become so much better they get nationally ranked for the quality of the food service.

[purist]

Hello, maraleia. As moderator of this forum, could you please fix the spelling of 'Incarceration' in the heading? It's bugging the shit out of me! Thank you. /pedant

Edited July 23, 2014 by purist

[BusyOctober]

Hi fellow alum, Grammaeryn!  Yes, I went to UMASS/Amherst in the late 80's.  I'm proud it's become a great University over the years, but I'm sad that I won't be able to afford it when my daughter is ready to go off to college.  It isn't a "Safety School" anymore!

[Athena]

Hello, maraleia. As moderator of this forum, could you please fix the spelling of 'Incarceration' in the heading? It's bugging the shit out of me! Thank you. /pedant

 

@purist I fixed the title. If anyone would like changes to topic titles and other business, please report a post in the future or use the @ mention feature.

[stillshimpy]

However, it is now known that some formerly archaic practices actually work better. Like leeches, and bloodletting in certain cases. Perhaps using sugar as both a binding agent & an antibiotic works effectively at a much lower cost.

 

I have no objection to that, as long as we're not guinea pigging.

​

 

I do agree that there is often worth in alternative treatments.  However, I really do have a monster-sized objection to denying a woman antibiotics following a c-section.  It clearly wasn't her choice, so they were "guinea pigging" .  She's incredibly lucky that she didn't die, considering that I'm guessing an atmosphere where they were apparently opening sugar packets (from, one would assume, food service) into an incision , is somewhat less than clean, let alone sterile.  

 

I support a lot of natural, homeopathic cures.  I'll try alternative medicines to cure a huge host of things.  Recovery from abdominal surgery is not among them.  I wouldn't treat a dog in my care as poorly as that.  

 

So that was a segment that went winging between outrage and despair for me, but I did think it was a good segment.  I did already know the majority of that.  We've basically sold inmates to for-profit prison systems and it's arguably a form of human trafficking.  I think John Oliver has truly hit his stride and has settled into this role remarkably, that he could present such serious subjects but still keep it light and without sounding pissed off at all times. 

 

Also, I swear you can see a difference in how comfortable Oliver was at the start of this season and now.  I personally think the eight years have improved him (yea verily on the haircut issue) , but his guest hosting spot on TDS only hinted at how good he could be.  I thought he was fantastic on TDS as the guest host, turned out he was capable of being even better.

 

ETA:  Oh sweet lords of mercy, when my husband and I were watching that report about the C-Section , I told him that it was a treatment, but I couldn't recall how I knew that.  Typing this out just made me remember:  I knew it from reading All Creatures Great and Small.  It was one of the ways James Herriot (aka James Wight) learned to shrink a cow's prolapsed uterus in the days before antibiotics. 

 

I literally read about that as a child from a depression era veterinarian's memoirs.  I don't know why that just made it just that much more horrifying, but it did.  Actually, I'm not all that mystified by my horror, seeing as I first encountered it as a literal barnyard treatment.  

Edited July 23, 2014 by stillshimpy

[purist]

Thank you, Athena.

[dcalley]

Also, I had no idea Sesame Street was trying to help kids deal with the imprisonment epidemic, but I'm glad to know someone is. When I was a kid, all I remember was stuff about counting, learning the alphabet, and basic pattern recognition, with maybe a little character-based mini-drama thrown in, to make it friendly enough that you'd sit through the number and letter lessons..

Don't forget taking your llama to the dentist in NYC, with bad grammar to boot!

 

The South African Sesame Street has an HIV-positive muppet.