House Stark: Winter Is Coming

[Tikichick]

Thank you for the information.  I guess the fact that Jon Arryn called his banners indicates that the Vale was one of the kingdoms in its own right, the same as WF, the Iron Islands, High Garden, etc.  It seems Arryn would have been an interesting person to know more about, because much of his influence still seems to play integral parts of various threads of the story in different ways.

[Lady S.]

It's not strange that Robert was fostered, but it is a bit strange that he wasn't fostered with one of his own bannermen. In the books, Lady Dustin says Ned's brother Brandon was fostered at Barrowton, in the North. By the time of the Rebellion/the Tourney of Harrenhal, Robert's parents were dead and he was Lord of Storm's End, yet he still spent his time in the Vale instead of the Stormlands. Really, it would have indeed have made more sense for Ned and Stannis to be fostered together, but the plot dictated that Ned had to be boyhood friends with the future king.

[Tikichick]

On 8/4/2017 at 7:33 PM, doram said:

Fostering is a common form of 

Yes, he was fostered with Robert as wards of Jon Arryn.

It was a common form for nobility to both raise their sons to be Knights and to create bonds between other noble houses. I imagine it as a kind of marriage - by being raised together as brothers, Ned and Rob became best friends, and also regarded Jon as their second fathers, which "fostered" (!!!) bonds between the North, the Vale and Stormlands). 

No, it was not. Fostering is a common practice. 

Thanks.  I understood fostering was commonplace, as well as the purpose for it.  I simply thought it was unusual for the eldest son, the heir, to be fostered.  Entirely a different idea with Theon's case.

[Hana Chan]

Fostering was also a way to ensure that the other family was less inclined to attack you since their child would be in the line of fire. In Theon's case, he was also very much a hostage to ensure that the Greyjoys behaved. While he was at Winterfell, he was treated kindly and raised with Ned's children, but he wasn't free to return to his family if he wanted to and the Greyjoy's couldn't just call him home.

[TaurusRose]

Short version, GRRM states you're wrong.

Again, I don't know what you're talking about. Did GRRM write all the Starks plus Jon Snow as stupid people with the exception of Sansa? Because that is not my interpretation, and if he made such remarks after the fact, you will excuse the book readers who base their opinions on the books and not author commentary at conventions and what not.

[YaddaYadda]

On 8/4/2017 at 9:58 PM, Lady S. said:

It's not strange that Robert was fostered, but it is a bit strange that he wasn't fostered with one of his own bannermen. In the books, Lady Dustin says Ned's brother Brandon was fostered at Barrowton, in the North. By the time of the Rebellion/the Tourney of Harrenhal, Robert's parents were dead and he was Lord of Storm's End, yet he still spent his time in the Vale instead of the Stormlands. Really, it would have indeed have made more sense for Ned and Stannis to be fostered together, but the plot dictated that Ned had to be boyhood friends with the future king.

Robert's parents died when he was sixteen, so he should have been able to take over as the Lord of Storm's End and the Stormlands because he was of age. I guess Cressen and whoever was the castellan at Storm's End didn't feel he was ready to take over. On the other hand, Robert's father became lord when he was fourteen.

Robert and Ned are so different. I think that if they had lived in closer proximity where they saw each other more than once every 7 years, that friendship might have frayed a lot sooner and been reduced to ashes. 

Edited August 23, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, taurusrose said:

 

Again, I don't know what you're talking about. Did GRRM write all the Starks plus Jon Snow as stupid people with the exception of Sansa? Because that is not my interpretation, and if he made such remarks after the fact, you will excuse the book readers who base their opinions on the books and not author commentary at conventions and what not.

 

I get what you are saying, but if the show runners write you dumb, you are dumb.

=========================================================================================================================

I don't think the show runners are writing Jon or any of the Starks as dumb.  I think that's the way some fans choose to look at them, unless you're talking about Sansa. Not trying to start a fight here, but it seems that Sansa is exempt from this label.

this is really ambiguous :  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Is the statement  saying Sansa is perfect and everyone considers the rest of the Starks stupid , is Sansa exempt from being stupid ( in most cases she's either naive or making judgement with lack of info ).

GRRM said each Stark had a hand in their house failures, each has a skill, each has faults .

Sansa's is her mind, so I'm not sure how you mean this. 

[TaurusRose]

29 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

 

I get what you are saying, but if the show runners write you dumb, you are dumb.

=========================================================================================================================

I don't think the show runners are writing Jon or any of the Starks as dumb.  I think that's the way some fans choose to look at them, unless you're talking about Sansa. Not trying to start a fight here, but it seems that Sansa is exempt from this label.

this is really ambiguous :  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Is the statement  saying Sansa is perfect and everyone considers the rest of the Starks stupid , is Sansa exempt from being stupid ( in most cases she's either naive or making judgement with lack of info ).

GRRM said each Stark had a hand in their house failures, each has a skill, each has faults .

Sansa's is her mind, so I'm not sure how you mean this. 

My statement is that there's a faction within this fandom that seems to think all the Starks are stupid EXCEPT Sansa.  She is rarely called stupid.  

My position is the Starks have made some bad decisions based on trusting the wrong people (LF, Theon) or underestimating their adversaries (Lannisters), but that doesn't make them stupid.  

But has GRRM called them stupid? Is D&D writing Jon/Starks dumb?  Have they said that?  

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, taurusrose said:

My statement is that there's a faction within this fandom that seems to think all the Starks are stupid EXCEPT Sansa.  She is rarely called stupid.  

My position is the Starks have made some bad decisions based on trusting the wrong people (LF, Theon) or underestimating their adversaries (Lannisters), but that doesn't make them stupid.  

But has GRRM called them stupid? Is D&D writing Jon/Starks dumb?  Have they said that?  

He said they all had a part, didn't call them stupid as far as I know.

They all made bad decisions, in the case of the elder Starks , believing in the wrong people, terrible at the game, Jon is too autocratic, sends all his allies away, not dumb but not wise.

Sansa and Arya one in her first year naive and foolish short sighted, but part of the blame on that has to be overprotective parents, after book 1 I find it hard to call her dumb or stupid since her decisions are based on info she has.

A bit meek maybe; but it's better then getting a steel fist in the gut.

Arya is street smart, quick on her feet, but man she acts too rash, can't foresee consequences, and right now suffering an acute case of defective memory and comprehension and dad did seem to let her get away with a little more.

WRG to the show, I put it all on the writers,and directors trying to get the show closed on time and cutting corners.

Out side of Dan, Dave and Cogman I wonder how many actually read the books ( not actors ; writers and directors )

I didn't mean to signal you out, just a group as a whole.

[TaurusRose]

3 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

He said they all had a part, didn't call them stupid as far as I know.

They all made bad decisions, in the case of the elder Starks , believing in the wrong people, terrible at the game, Jon is too autocratic, sends all his allies away, not dumb but not wise.

Sansa and Arya one in her first year naive and foolish short sighted, but part of the blame on that has to be overprotective parents, after book 1 I find it hard to call her dumb or stupid since her decisions are based on info she has.

A bit meek maybe; but it's better then getting a steel fist in the gut.

Arya is street smart, quick on her feet, but man she acts too rash, can't foresee consequences, and right now suffering an acute case of defective memory and comprehension and dad did seem to let her get away with a little more.

WRG to the show, I put it all on the writers,and directors trying to get the show closed on time and cutting corners.

Out side of Dan, Dave and Cogman I wonder how many actually read the books ( not actors ; writers and directors )

I didn't mean to signal you out, just a group as a whole.

Thanks for the response.

[GrailKing]

Just now, taurusrose said:

Thanks for the response.

I changed the you're to they're now that I understood your reply.

[FnkyChkn34]

Not to step in and stir things up, but how are any of the Starks any more stupid than any of the other characters of these books/this show?  All characters have their bright ideas and their not-so-bright ideas.  All characters have made good decisions and bad decisions.  All characters are complex, but to call just the Starks "stupid" is ridiculous in my opinion.  Even Tyrion, Varys, and Littlefinger - arguably the three characters who are supposed to be the "smartest" - have made poor decisions or done "stupid" things.  

[TarotQueen]

19 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Robert's parents died when he was sixteen, so he should have been able to take over as the Lord of Storm's End and the Stormlands because he was of age. I guess Cressen and whoever was the castellan at Storm's End didn't feel he was ready to take over. On the other hand, Robert's father became lord when he was fourteen.

Robert and Ned are so different. I think that if they had lived in closer proximity where they saw each other more than once every 7 years, that friendship might have frayed a lot sooner and been reduced to ashes. 

I wonder a lot about what sort of husband Robert would have been to Lyanna.  He was pretty shitty to Cersei, which I guess you could say, okay, he really didn't love her anyway, so there's that.  But was what he felt for Lyanna really real either, or mostly just vanity and ego?  I could see him as being one of those "tear you off the pedestal and put you back up on it" cyclers, maybe not outright abusive, but controlling and certainly not pleasant ... in any case, the reason I bring it up is that I feel pretty sure their friendship wouldn't have lasted through being in laws either.

[YaddaYadda]

36 minutes ago, TarotQueen said:

I wonder a lot about what sort of husband Robert would have been to Lyanna.  He was pretty shitty to Cersei, which I guess you could say, okay, he really didn't love her anyway, so there's that.  But was what he felt for Lyanna really real either, or mostly just vanity and ego?  I could see him as being one of those "tear you off the pedestal and put you back up on it" cyclers, maybe not outright abusive, but controlling and certainly not pleasant ... in any case, the reason I bring it up is that I feel pretty sure their friendship wouldn't have lasted through being in laws either.

I think he would have been the same with Lyanna. Robert slept his way through The Peach during the war, while the woman he said he loved was allegedly being raped. I think Jaime said it best. Robert went to war because of his injured pride first and foremost. 

How long before he was bored with her or raised a hand to her because she was willful? He was more in love with the idea of her, and she was smart enough to understand he wouldn't change. 

[Jazzy24]

4 hours ago, TarotQueen said:

I wonder a lot about what sort of husband Robert would have been to Lyanna.  He was pretty shitty to Cersei, which I guess you could say, okay, he really didn't love her anyway, so there's that.  But was what he felt for Lyanna really real either, or mostly just vanity and ego?  I could see him as being one of those "tear you off the pedestal and put you back up on it" cyclers, maybe not outright abusive, but controlling and certainly not pleasant ... in any case, the reason I bring it up is that I feel pretty sure their friendship wouldn't have lasted through being in laws either.

I still dont understand the whole Robert becoming infatuated with Lyanna happened. Him and Ned were fostered at the Vale for like 8yrs together and Lyanna was in Winterfell. Plus GRRM confirmed that Robert was the one who asked for Lyanna's hand, yet Robert has never been to the North before AGOT and the betroth took place before Harrenhall. There is also no instances where we know that Robert and Lyanna ever exchanged two words and everytime he speaks about her Ned is correcting him on who Lyanna really was. 

So I don't understand where this obsession with Lyanna started unless it was really an obsession for Ned and once he found out that Ned had a sister who looked like him he transferred that obsession to Lyanna's. 

[YaddaYadda]

If anything, it sounds like Robert and Lyanna probably met at Harrenhal for the first time. That may even have been the reason she went in the first place, to meet him. 

I think Ned talking about his sister is part of it. I think it's easy to mistake infatuation for love. 

1 hour ago, Jazzy24 said:

Plus GRRM confirmed that Robert was the one who asked for Lyanna's hand

Got to wonder what Rickard's original plans for Lyanna might have been. It kind of throws that whole southron ambition accusation into a bit of a tailspin if he didn't seek this marriage alliance. 

[TarotQueen]

Well, Lyanna heard enough from gossip to learn that Robert fucked around a lot.   So it stands to reason that Robert could have heard enough from gossip to learn that Lyanna was a wild beauty.

Someone like Robert, who would have always been looking for happiness in the woman he was with/with for the night, wouldn't need much in the way of romantic rumors to pin all his hopes on a girl imo.

[YaddaYadda]

13 hours ago, TarotQueen said:

Well, Lyanna heard enough from gossip to learn that Robert fucked around a lot.   So it stands to reason that Robert could have heard enough from gossip to learn that Lyanna was a wild beauty.

For sure.

One of the things that sort of threw me for a loop was a throwaway line from Olenna in ASOS when she told Sansa that she had known Rickard. Whaaat? I thought Rickard was nailed to the floor boards at Winterfell and never left the north, especially since he didn't make the trip to Harrenhal for the tourney (we know from the World book that he was down in King's Landing to see the King a few years before Duskendale). So Rickard and Olenna knew each other even if it wasn't super well. 

A marriage between Starks and Tyrells may not have been a novel idea.

[Jazzy24]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

For sure.

One of the things that sort of threw me for a loop was a throwaway line from Olenna in ASOS when she told Sansa that she had known Rickard. Whaaat? I thought Rickard was nailed to the floor boards at Winterfell and never left the north, especially since he didn't make the trip to Harrenhal for the tourney (we know from the World book that he was down in King's Landing to see the King a few years before Duskendale). So Rickard and Olenna knew each other even if it wasn't super well. 

A marriage between Starks and Tyrells may not have been a novel idea.

I'm pretty sure Ruckard took a lot of trips outside the north. This is a ambitious man who tried making alliances outside the north. 

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, Jazzy24 said:

I'm pretty sure Ruckard took a lot of trips outside the north. This is a ambitious man who tried making alliances outside the north. 

That's the thing though, we hear about his ambitions from Barbrey Dustin. But if GRRM says that Robert is the one who broached the topic of the betrothal to Lyanna, not the other way around, then imo, he wasn't seeking any sort of southron alliance. Whatever Barbrey is assuming seems to be contradicted by GRRM. 

On my end, I didn't know that GRRM said anything about Robert/Lyanna, I just always assumed that marrying his children off to southron houses had more to do with making sure the north wasn't isolated if something happened at the Wall. But that's really just me.

[ulkis]

@stillshimpy @Misplaced Replying to some of your posts and points here:

Quote

Recall that Ned encouraged Jon to join the Night's Watch when he thought Cersei's children were legit Baratheon fawns, not illegit Lannister cubs.  If Ned had any glimpse of that future, I am not convinced he would have sent Jon north.  At the time, he thought Jon was a potential usurper to his best bud's throne.  So really, there was no reason on earth not to let Jon take the oath, just like Maester Aemon. 

Even aside from that, I don't know if he had much of a choice. He couldn't take him to King's Landing, he couldn't leave him at Winterfell. I guess he could have sent him away as a ward somewhere, but Jon wanted to go to the Watch. If Ned had said, trust me, there are reasons I don't want you to go, then Jon probably would have kept pestering him to tell him why. I suppose he could have sent him off elsewhere in King's Landing though.

I think it would have helped Catelyn, maybe, if Ned had said, "I didn't love Jon's mother like you but I have to keep him here because it's my duty" or what have you. In the books at least I think she is hurt because she thinks Ned loved Jon's mother in a romantic way. Big maybe. But then, I don't think Catelyn treated him that badly by Westeros standards. I see people say Ned let her treat him badly but he probably did put his foot down, otherwise she would have been shoving Jon into the corner making him sweep up the cinders.

The funny thing is that maybe if Ned hadn't been honorable, Catelyn would have been less resentful of out of wedlock kid. But since Ned set her up to expect him to act honorably, she got extra pissed that he brought home a son. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's rational of Catelyn, but just that I could see that making her even more irritated.

[YaddaYadda]

8 minutes ago, ulkis said:

The funny thing is that maybe if Ned hadn't been honorable, Catelyn would have been less resentful of out of wedlock kid. But since Ned set her up to expect him to act honorably, she got extra pissed that he brought home a son. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's rational of Catelyn, but just that I could see that making her even more irritated.

When did he set her up to expect him to act honorably though? People can sing his praises all they want, but they didn't know each other, and they didn't lay eyes on each other until the day they were standing there reciting their vows (it occurs to me that Ned probably had nothing to do with negotiating his own wedding and that Jon Arryn might have had a hand in that). And they didn't spend enough time together for her to have the full measure of the man. Plus it's war, so I'm assuming Ned spent a lot of time locked away with Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully discussing strategy. She spent 14 days with him, got knocked up on her wedding night, traveled to Winterfell with Robb after the war.

I think the thing that got to Catelyn the most is that Jon was the son who looked like a Stark. He was the son with the looks of the north. Craster takes one look at Jon and he tells him he has the look of a Stark. Qhorin Halfhand says the same. People who knew Benjen recognize Jon as Ned Stark's son. 

Robb and Jon are really close in age. We don't even know which one is older than the other in the story. That's a concern for her. If there was ever an issue between Robb and Jon, who would the bannermen rally to? The kid who looks like Ned Stark or the one who has the Tully look? I think that's one of the main reasons she doesn't want Robb to legitimize Jon in the first place. If by some miracle Sansa or Arya made it home, then the north will probably stick with Jon. He's a man and his last name is Stark. 

Anyway...I kinda get a sick thrill when she questions him about Ashara Dayne and he gets pissed. I know, I'm a terrible person.

[ulkis]

You're right, I forgot how little they knew each other. But still, even with the little time they had together plus people talking about him could have set up some unreasonable expectations within her.

[stillshimpy]

1 hour ago, ulkis said:

You're right, I forgot how little they knew each other. But still, even with the little time they had together plus people talking about him could have set up some unreasonable expectations within her.

But that will never be something Ned did. 

[ulkis]

Oh yeah, I'm not saying it's his fault at all. In fact it would make her dislike of Jon even more unreasonable, but I could see it being a factor.

[RedheadZombie]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

When did he set her up to expect him to act honorably though? People can sing his praises all they want, but they didn't know each other, and they didn't lay eyes on each other until the day they were standing there reciting their vows (it occurs to me that Ned probably had nothing to do with negotiating his own wedding and that Jon Arryn might have had a hand in that). And they didn't spend enough time together for her to have the full measure of the man. Plus it's war, so I'm assuming Ned spent a lot of time locked away with Jon Arryn and Hoster Tully discussing strategy. She spent 14 days with him, got knocked up on her wedding night, traveled to Winterfell with Robb after the war.

I think the thing that got to Catelyn the most is that Jon was the son who looked like a Stark. He was the son with the looks of the north. Craster takes one look at Jon and he tells him he has the look of a Stark. Qhorin Halfhand says the same. People who knew Benjen recognize Jon as Ned Stark's son. 

Robb and Jon are really close in age. We don't even know which one is older than the other in the story. That's a concern for her. If there was ever an issue between Robb and Jon, who would the bannermen rally to? The kid who looks like Ned Stark or the one who has the Tully look? I think that's one of the main reasons she doesn't want Robb to legitimize Jon in the first place. If by some miracle Sansa or Arya made it home, then the north will probably stick with Jon. He's a man and his last name is Stark. 

Anyway...I kinda get a sick thrill when she questions him about Ashara Dayne and he gets pissed. I know, I'm a terrible person.

I feel like I read that Cat accepted that Brandon was a little wild and would most likely cheat on her.  If she knew this about Brandon, then she likely heard how honorable and upstanding Ned was.  Perhaps she would have been more accepting if it were Brandon, but not Ned.  Does this make any sense?  If Littlefinger were around at that time, I'm sure he was whispering in her ear.

[YaddaYadda]

35 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I feel like I read that Cat accepted that Brandon was a little wild and would most likely cheat on her.  If she knew this about Brandon, then she likely heard how honorable and upstanding Ned was.  Perhaps she would have been more accepting if it were Brandon, but not Ned.  Does this make any sense?  If Littlefinger were around at that time, I'm sure he was whispering in her ear.

I'd have to go look at a couple of things, but Catelyn doesn't mention Brandon a whole lot in her POV. She says she thought that Ned would be a younger version of Brandon (his looks), but that he was plain and she was disappointed. She also talks about the difference of personality, Ned somber and reserved and Brandon's moods mirths and rages. She talks about his duel with LF, and him telling her they'd marry when he came back from KL after he found out about Lyanna and her father calling him a gallant fool. Seems Hoster Tully knew Brandon was never coming back.

Edited August 31, 2017 by YaddaYadda

[GraceK]

I think it's a little of both. I think if Ned had a more dishonorable reputation and was a known ladies man, she might not have resented Jon so much. I think that BECAUSE Ned was known for being so honorable, and never once spoke of the woman, that Cat probably felt that in order for Ned Stark to father a bastard he must have really loved this woman. He not only brought the baby home, but clearly loved him, and raised him as if he were his true born son. That must have been a slap in the face for Catlyn, that he loved and held the mothers memory in such esteem that he never spoke of her and loved Jon.

[glowbug]

I don't think Catelyn had a problem with Ned fathering a bastard (or at least in wasn't her main problem). I believe she says in one of her chapters that she understood that men had affairs, particularly when they were off at war, away from their wives, and that she and Ned barely knew each other so aside from his vows Ned didn't really have an emotional reason to be faithful to her. What bothered her was that he brought his bastard son to Winterfell and raised him with his true born children. The fact that he did that indicated to her that he did love Jon's mother, which was true, but due to Ned's lies she thought it was romantic love rather than familial. 

[Jazzy24]

1 hour ago, glowbug said:

I don't think Catelyn had a problem with Ned fathering a bastard (or at least in wasn't her main problem). I believe she says in one of her chapters that she understood that men had affairs, particularly when they were off at war, away from their wives, and that she and Ned barely knew each other so aside from his vows Ned didn't really have an emotional reason to be faithful to her. What bothered her was that he brought his bastard son to Winterfell and raised him with his true born children. The fact that he did that indicated to her that he did love Jon's mother, which was true, but due to Ned's lies she thought it was romantic love rather than familial. 

True. Plus Jon looked like Ned the most and her children besides Arya had the Tully look and coloring. 

[Lady S.]

7 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I feel like I read that Cat accepted that Brandon was a little wild and would most likely cheat on her.  If she knew this about Brandon, then she likely heard how honorable and upstanding Ned was.  Perhaps she would have been more accepting if it were Brandon, but not Ned.  Does this make any sense?  If Littlefinger were around at that time, I'm sure he was whispering in her ear.

No, we don't find out about Brandon's womanizing until the 5th book when Lady Dustin rhapsodized about his bloody dick. Catelyn remembered him as wild, but his being wild in that way wasn't known to her the way Robert's reputation reached Lyanna. She and Brandon didn't know each other that well, though unlike Robert she hadn't idealized him as if they were true love. 

 

On 8/24/2017 at 2:17 PM, YaddaYadda said:

That's the thing though, we hear about his ambitions from Barbrey Dustin. But if GRRM says that Robert is the one who broached the topic of the betrothal to Lyanna, not the other way around, then imo, he wasn't seeking any sort of southron alliance. Whatever Barbrey is assuming seems to be contradicted by GRRM. 

Having Ned fostered in the Vale and Brandon betrothed to Cat were still southron alliances. Though I agree that we shouldn't give too much weight to Barbrey's account, especially the bit about Rickard's maester manipulating him into all that. Why would she even know what went on between him and his maester? I can't imagine that was Brandon's idea of pillow talk. 

Edited August 31, 2017 by Lady S.

[YaddaYadda]

3 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Having Ned fostered in the Vale and Brandon betrothed to Cat were still southron alliances. Though I agree that we shouldn't give too much weight to Barbrey's account, especially the bit about Rickard's maester manipulating him into all that. Why would she even know what went on between him and his maester? I can't imagine that was Brandon's idea of pillow talk. 

I agree that yes, they were southron alliances. I just find that we tend to rely too much on the word of a woman who is clearly still hurt and has had years to stew in her pain because she lost out on the man she loved. Barbrey is really good at nursing hurts and holding grudges, so I tend to not put a whole lot of weight in what she says about Rickard being manipulated by his maester into whatever these marriages were. The whole thing is just weird.

[Kuther2000]

How does the separation of the Lord of Winterfell and King in the North title work? Does House Stark now become a second tier house in the North where before they were rulers? I know at the moment Jon and Sansa are coexisting because the siblings/cousins but what about Jon's future grandchildren and Sansa's future grandchildren. It's possible that future Starks won't take to kindly to not having complete rulership over the North.

[Lady S.]

I don't think they actually are separated now? We were assuming so at the end of s6 because the Viewer's Guide listed Sansa as Lady of Winterfell, most likely based on Jon saying so and giving her the master bedroom before he was named KitN. However, given her shock when Jon named her as ruler in his absence, I don't think she understood Winterfell to be hers and that Jon was just a monarch who lived there. The show treated it more like when Bran was acting lord in s2 while Robb was the KitN who was actually in the South. Even if Jon and Sansa did have separate authority though, the North is a big place and the family could always build a second castle.

What makes it a bit confusing is that while Jon still uses his bastard name and says he's not a Stark, he is otherwise conducting himself as the head of House Stark. For instance, by making the Umber and Karstark heirs swear fealty to House Stark and not him personally, or by accepting Dany's assumption that he is a successor of Torrhen Stark even while rejecting the notion of being bound by Torrhen's submission to a family which broke faith with House Stark. He's so focused on the Long Night that I doubt he's given a thought to dynastic issues in future generations, but I can't imagine he'd ever want to supplant House Stark of Winterfell and he's done nothing to set himself up as the start of a new dynasty.

[Advance35]

I personally think House Stark is finished.  They took a lot of hits through the years and Jon finished them off, in the sense of being true, independent rulers of the North.   Arya is a Jon Disciple, just a monkey to Jon's organ grinder.  Bran is oblivious to mundane things like the real world, if it's not interacting with Wights, walkers or talking trees.  Sansa is thinking Dynasty but Jon put her in a corner when he was actually in Winterfell, her suggestions were waived off, her advice ignored, and the fears/concerns she raised about Cersei were dismissed until Danerys took them on as her own.   Sansa has all the influence of a Tavern Wench and Jon pretty much told her to just shut up when he got tired of hearing her.

And now Jon has officially handed the North to Danerys.  She could give that Wardenship to ANYONE she pleased.  Will she? Unlikely.  But she could.  It could make one wonder if Catelyn loathed Jon for a reason, did she know on instinct he would supplant her children as rulers?

[Luckylyn]

Battle of Ideologies: Ned vs Jon vs Sansa

[Constantinople]

The surviving Starks are kind of a disappointment.

In fact, they kind of suck

Jon can't keep his mouth shut, and Sansa won't.

Sansa and Arya came across as ungrateful, Lannister Lite shits in their scene with Jon in the Godswood

Arya's trip to Death Island is a bit self-indulgent given all of the work that needs to be done in The North and The Six Kingdoms

King Bran's appointment of Tyrion as Hand shows he's not fit to be king (with further proof being that Bran didn't veto Bron as Master of Coin).

[bijoux]

I was actually thinking about something else in regards to them. Sansa is supposed to have won the North's independence because of everything she learned from Cersei and Littlefinger. Except there has really been nothing that shows those skills at least since Dany showed up in Winterfell. She just basically kept repeating she wants independence. You know who I think would have gone about it that way had he wanted it? Ned. No subtlety, just very much cards laid on the table. She only deviated in the end by divulging Jon's secret to Tyrion. You know Ned would have gone and tell Dany he was going to talk first. 

I don't know what to think of this really, be disappointed that the supposed learning wasn't showcased at all, or be kind of impressed by them showing Sansa's northern roots. Subtlety really isn't their strength. 

I wouldn't have minded Arya sticking around, as my chief hope for the Starks has been effectively dashed, the pack is no more and is doubtful ever to be again, but I'm not sure her skillset is all that useful to restoration. In the long run, Westeros might profit from her discoveries. 

[Umbelina]

Ned was a complete idiot.  He's lucky his children and nephew came out as well as they did.

Sansa:  Saved Winterfell in spite of Jon not listening to her, and secured freedom for the North and respect from the somewhat touchy people there.  She is Queen of the largest land mass in Westeros.

Bran:  Became a God, and is also head King of the 6 Kingdoms (actually I think there were 9 all together.)  He's also connected to the Old Gods and can warg into anything anytime he wants, and knows all, unlike his know-nothing father.

Jon:  Became a Head of the Night's Watch, King of the North, and is now back where he was happy, with Wildlings.  Or at the Wall, who knows?  Either way, he remained honorable, and would have made Ned very proud.

Arya:  Saved the world.  Is off on new adventures, and can certainly take care of herself, and since her wolf has created a new family, it's pretty certain that eventually she will as well. 

In spite of Ned putting them all in danger, and through hell because he was a complete idiot, most of his children survived and now, from top to bottom?  Run Westeros.

[Couver]

20 minutes ago, bijoux said:

I was actually thinking about something else in regards to them. Sansa is supposed to have won the North's independence because of everything she learned from Cersei and Littlefinger. Except there has really been nothing that shows those skills at least since Dany showed up in Winterfell. She just basically kept repeating she wants independence. You know who I think would have gone about it that way had he wanted it? Ned. No subtlety, just very much cards laid on the table. She only deviated in the end by divulging Jon's secret to Tyrion. You know Ned would have gone and tell Dany he was going to talk first. 

I don't know what to think of this really, be disappointed that the supposed learning wasn't showcased at all, or be kind of impressed by them showing Sansa's northern roots. Subtlety really isn't their strength. 

I wouldn't have minded Arya sticking around, as my chief hope for the Starks has been effectively dashed, the pack is no more and is doubtful ever to be again, but I'm not sure her skillset is all that useful to restoration. In the long run, Westeros might profit from her discoveries. 

So much to the bolded. I really felt the show gave the character short shrift there. They hammered us over and over with characters saying it but at best just gave us vague hints of her actually using her smarts to get things done.

Season 7 would have been the best place to show it. Particularly with her figuring out that Littlefinger was playing her.

It's weird I liked the Starks a lot when the show started and all the way through to season 7. Especially Sansa and Arya but season 8 made me really dislike them all because of their endings.

[bijoux]

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Ned was a complete idiot.  He's lucky his children and nephew came out as well as they did. 

Come on, now, he 23andme-d the shit out of bastards and incest babies. I always found that shit hilarious. Yup, definitive proof right there. All Cersei could have done was say, Yeah, and all the Lannisters are blonde, so effing what? I guess my genes trump thosemof your potbellied friend. 

 

To be fair though, I think Ned was perfectly fine up in the North, he just didn't have a clue about living in King's Landing. I used to think he was an idiot not to tell Cat about Jon, but he turned out to be right in the end IMO. 

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, bijoux said:

Come on, now, he 23andme-d the shit out of bastards and incest babies. I always found that shit hilarious. Yup, definitive proof right there. All Cersei could have done was say, Yeah, and all the Lannisters are blonde, so effing what? I guess my genes trump thosemof your potbellied friend. 

 

To be fair though, I think Ned was perfectly fine up in the North, he just didn't have a clue about living in King's Landing. I used to think he was an idiot not to tell Cat about Jon, but he turned out to be right in the end IMO. 

That was the least of his idiocies.

I could not stand Ned, actually thought he was the most unbelievable character in the books, and on the show. 

It always bothered me that the entire series kicked off because of someone so completely unbelievably stupid, and it took me a while to get past that nonsense and go with the story.

From the moment he killed that guy who was bringing IMPORTANT INFORMATION for the entire Kingdom and for the North of course, the place Ned was duty bound to protect, until each and every idiotic decision he made in KL? 

You want to do your duty and show off your morals for your kids, dumbbell?  At least LISTEN to the dude before chopping off his head, and you know, check out his information either before or after that.

Dude was a fool.  Unbelievably idiotic, honestly, how did he live to be middle aged without a brain in his head?

Edited May 24, 2019 by Umbelina
added stuff

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Sansa:  Saved Winterfell in spite of Jon not listening to her, and secured freedom for the North and respect from the somewhat touchy people there.  She is Queen of the largest land mass in Westeros.

The two examples of her justice are having a prisoner ripped apart by starving dogs, and a show trial in which the defendant was given no notice and at which spectral evidence was admitted. Salem Witch trials anyone

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Bran:  Became a God, and is also head King of the 6 Kingdoms (actually I think there were 9 all together.)  He's also connected to the Old Gods and can warg into anything anytime he wants, and knows all, unlike his know-nothing father.

To recap, he's already made 2 bad decisions (Tryion and Bron), and his warg powers don't count for shit if he couldn't use them during the Battle of the One Longish Night

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Jon:  Became a Head of the Night's Watch, King of the North, and is now back where he was happy, with Wildlings.  Or at the Wall, who knows?  Either way, he remained honorable, and would have made Ned very proud.

He's essentially doing jack now. Ned believed in a life of service

But what's sad to say is that, dumb as he is, he may still be the most politically astute of all the remaining Starks.  When he's the one pointing out to the need for allies to Arya, Sansa and Bran, you know you have problems.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Arya:  Saved the world. 

Everyone helped to save the world. Arya carried the ball across the goal line.

Edited May 24, 2019 by Constantinople

[Maximum Taco]

20 hours ago, Umbelina said:

That was the least of his idiocies.

I could not stand Ned, actually thought he was the most unbelievable character in the books, and on the show. 

It always bothered me that the entire series kicked off because of someone so completely unbelievably stupid, and it took me a while to get past that nonsense and go with the story.

From the moment he killed that guy who was bringing IMPORTANT INFORMATION for the entire Kingdom and for the North of course, the place Ned was duty bound to protect, until each and every idiotic decision he made in KL? 

You want to do your duty and show off your morals for your kids, dumbbell?  At least LISTEN to the dude before chopping off his head, and you know, check out his information either before or after that.

Dude was a fool.  Unbelievably idiotic, honestly, how did he live to be middle aged without a brain in his head?

He did listen to him, but the story was patently ridiculous. 

If you met someone who had killed a bunch of children and then said he did it because they were evil devil children who would bring about the fall of man, you would absolutely prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law, or call him insane. You would not say "Oh gee, maybe he's right, we better investigate this devil children theory."

Now I'm not trying to compare desertion to child murder, in the severity of possible offenses, I'm just saying that claiming the White Walkers killed your friends at the beginning of GoT is equivalent to claiming demon possession in our own world. Both are things that should be dismissed summarily. 

Benjen, the First Ranger, doesn't vehemently contradict Ned or chastise him when Ned refers to talk of the White Walkers as "madness." That should tell you how unbelievable the threat of the White Walkers is at the beginning of the series. 

Edited May 25, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Umbelina]

OK, I will give you that one, except?  Ned sees the honor in the man he beheads, and if he had listened to him further?  The rest of the plot would not have happened, so again, contrivance.

Oh, and it might have ended the story much earlier...

Still Ned went on to prove himself a bigger idiot as time went on.

It's hard to understand how he could tie his own shoes. 

I just found him ridiculous and unbelievable from the beginning (not as much in the show as in the books.)  I get that most people adored his "honor" and of course 😉  Sean Bean! 

He just annoyed me to no end, I rolled my eyes so many times I probably began to look like Bran when reading the Ned story.  I even put the book down, unsure if I would continue with such a (to me) bad and unbelievable beginning to the story.  It was that jarring to me, the hero/idiot juxtaposition and stupidity of that as a plot device to get this story going.   

The writing got better after Ned was gone, but it was quite a while before I could get past that this whole tale was built on a pile of nonsense, with a rather worldly character, who had been in wars, who supposedly ran the North well, was that impossibly naive.  I began to hate Ned though, because I did care about his children, and I blamed him for everything that happened to them.

I never believed it.  I got past it.  His death was sad.  Still, every single thing that happened to his family and his country stemmed from that.  When you can't believe that Ned could possibly be that stupid though, which I could not, at least as written?  It was nearly laughable.

Obviously, eventually I went with it, but I never really got over it.  I wish GRRM had made him less of a fool, but oh well.

Edited May 25, 2019 by Umbelina
kids sentence

[Maximum Taco]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

OK, I will give you that one, except?  Ned sees the honor in the man he beheads, and if he had listened to him further? 

He doesn't see his honour though. He sees his madness. 

From the show

Quote

Bran: Is it true he saw the White Walkers?

Ned: The White Walkers have been gone for thousands of years.

Bran: So he was lying?

Ned: A madman sees what he sees. 

Show Ned thinks this guy is coocoo for cocoa puffs. The white walkers haven't been seen in thousands of years, and he doesn't believe him. He doesn't think this guy is honourable in the least. 

From the books

Quote

"In truth, the man was an oathbreaker, a deserter from the Night's Watch. No man is more dangerous. The deserter knows his life is forfeit if he is taken, so he will not flinch from any crime, no matter how vile" ~ Bran I

Book Ned trusts the deserter even less. An oathbreaker would do or say anything, and is among the most dishonourable men. He merely feels as though he owes it to him to hear the man's last words and to look him in the eye if he's to sentence him to death

Quote

"If you would take a man's life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, perhaps the man does not deserve to die" ~ Bran I

Also it should be noted that the Others have been gone for 8,000 years. 

Quote

"You listen to too many of Old Nan's stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one." ~ Catelyn I

I think you're holding Ned to way too high a standard here. If you were a cop in this day and age and I told you dinosaurs ate my friends would you take that seriously?

Edited May 25, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Umbelina]

As I said, I'll give you that one.

That said?  Obviously, Ned's judgement was completely wrong, as was his read on that man, and that continued through just about every single thing he did from that point on, especially in King's Landing.  Those constant failings are what fueled this story.  I never believed that character could possibly be that naive/wrong/stupid, so the story (KL) started off (for me) on a "oh come on now" eye roll.  Which lead back to that first scene where he was (yet again) completely WRONG.

I get that it's a seriously unpopular opinion about Ned, to think he's a fool/plot device too impossible to believe.  However, it IS how I felt, from the very first time I read book one. 

It's never changed.

GRRM was capable of better, as we see in subsequent writing.

[Affogato]

On 8/4/2017 at 9:58 PM, Lady S. said:

It's not strange that Robert was fostered, but it is a bit strange that he wasn't fostered with one of his own bannermen. In the books, Lady Dustin says Ned's brother Brandon was fostered at Barrowton, in the North. By the time of the Rebellion/the Tourney of Harrenhal, Robert's parents were dead and he was Lord of Storm's End, yet he still spent his time in the Vale instead of the Stormlands. Really, it would have indeed have made more sense for Ned and Stannis to be fostered together, but the plot dictated that Ned had to be boyhood friends with the future king.

And it might have made Stannis’s support of the North a natural outgrowth of the fosterage. 

[Affogato]

The fact that Benjen didn’t seem to know about the walkers reappearance is odd, especially because he is a ranger ane would know Craster and the Wildings to some extent. You would think he’d tell Ned. 

Still craster wasn’t proud of the baby thong and perhaps the reappearance publically was sudden  

However Ned could have believed what the  guy said and still executed him for desertion. Particularly if he believed, the NW is the first line of defense. And telling children monsters exist while they are out in the middle of somewhere remote seems dumb. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by Affogato

[Affogato]

On 8/8/2017 at 12:33 PM, Hana Chan said:

Fostering was also a way to ensure that the other family was less inclined to attack you since their child would be in the line of fire. In Theon's case, he was also very much a hostage to ensure that the Greyjoys behaved. While he was at Winterfell, he was treated kindly and raised with Ned's children, but he wasn't free to return to his family if he wanted to and the Greyjoy's couldn't just call him home.

And Myrcella also