S10.E14: Look at the Flowers

[nodorothyparker]

Airdate 2020.03.29

Quote

Both sides reckon with the aftermath of the Hilltop fire and fight.  Eugene leads a trip to meet Stephanie.

 

REMINDER:  This thread is for discussion of what appears onscreen only.  If you didn't see it happen, it does not belong here and your post WILL be removed.  DO NOT DISCUSS CASTING NEWS, including reported cast comings and goings beyond what's onscreen, OR SPOILERS.   That includes what you see in the previews.  We have separate threads for spoilers or the comics.  

[heisenberg]

First time I see a show so bad that even the characters in the story have all been leaving for the last two years.

[AngelaHunter]

"You don't kill people that don't deserve it, and you don't kill kids." - Negan.

Show? What the actual fuck? Do you really think we are as brain-dead as that, when we know full well and saw Negan had no inhibitions about killing innocents and kids. We won't mention the sex slaves and the torture. I know he's a good guy now, but what the fuckity fuck?

[MrsRafaelBarba]

The title failed to deliver.

 

[CletusMusashi]

I think it was a typo. They printed "Look at the Flowers" when they meant "Listen to More Alpha Monologues."

[AngelaHunter]

I must say the Old Time Zombie Towne is pretty cool. Reminds me of "Toon Town".

I don't even mind the absurdity of Beta schmoozing with all the walkers without being eaten, because he is really the only slightly interesting character left and only because he's actually weird, random and scary.

How does Negan manage to maintain his stylish "Depression-era, Grapes of Wrath Ex-Con" hairdo, anyway?

[heisenberg]

14 minutes ago, MrsRafaelBarba said:

The title failed to deliver.

 

It was meant for the show, not Carol.

Edited March 30, 2020 by heisenberg

[BellyLaughter]

Hallucination Alpha is even more annoying than alive Alpha.... 

[CletusMusashi]

I don't like Imaginary Alpha at all. But Disembodied Head Alpha is comedy gold.

[CletusMusashi]

Not only is Ghost Alpha a pathetically trite cliche, but even if I suspend my belief on her as a plot device, I still don't buy what she's selling. Her whole schtick seems to be "You and I are exactly alike..." well, um... no. Carol has made some bad decisions, but Alpha's freakishly weird decision-making skills take things to a whole 'nother level... and "You know you love power. The only thing you care about is being in control of everyone! Admit it! You want to be 'tator of the world!" And... no. She doesn't. Carol is certainly prone to going behind the backs of others and doing what she feels should be done, but that's not the same as wanting to officially be on top, giving everybody orders and keeping tabs on them all to see which ones are disobeying royal decrees. Carol doesn't want to be in charge, and she knows it. She's not a budding fascist leader. She's just a person who sneaks around and does illegal things sometimes.  So why does a stupid figment of her imagination who probably only exists in order to settle a contract argument (about whether or not Samantha Morton's entire body needs to be there for her to get paid) not know this? 

Edited March 30, 2020 by CletusMusashi

[AngelaHunter]

I was wondering if Carol had ever had a conversation with Alpha, or heard her speaking? If not, she couldn't have hallucinated that accent.

[Lady Iris]

That was one ho-hum ep. 

[CrazyDog]

4 hours ago, MrsRafaelBarba said:

The title failed to deliver.

 

Definitely. I think the season has been decent overall, but this was just dull. Or maybe given current events, I just wasn't in the mood for this show tonight.

The whole thing was just flat.

Seems like Alpha's death didn't matter, now that Beta has yet another giant herd.

WTF with the scenes at the end? I'm already annoyed with perky boa lady, or whatever she was wearing. And maybe Ezekiel is just losing it, because I found those zombie scenes disturbing, not funny.

Eh, maybe it's just my mood tonight.

Edited March 30, 2020 by CrazyDog

[spiderpig]

Yawn.

Bring back Frank Darabont!

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[mxc90]

The flowers were upset and yelled: "don't look at us! We didn't write this mess!"

I didn't think I could be quickly annoyed after a character's brief introduction but this one set the record with me.

Edited March 30, 2020 by mxc90

[gaPeach]

I hate what the writers have done to Carol's character.  And my happiness that Alpha was finally dead was short lived with this episode.  The old Carol would not have wasted one minute on this totally NOT scary bad guy...…..person.  And the writers totally wrote off all the guns and bullets to make this stupid group of Zombie fakers the new threat.  Sheesh.  I used to love this show.  Now, I don't even recognize it.

[theredhead77]

I liked it, minus the poor horse. My only complaint is not learning how Alpha, and now Beta, can control heards like they do.

[TWOPrefugee]

Wished they would have stayed with the piked Alpha bites the random whisperer longer. I wanted to see the piece of whisperer flesh fall out the bottom of Alpha's head.

Edited March 30, 2020 by TWOPrefugee

[nodorothyparker]

I might have been better able to tolerate an "I see and have long talks with dead people" episode if it didn't immediately follow another episode that was heavily dependent on the main character hallucinating and what iffing her way through it.  Or if we hadn't been down this road with Carol multiple times before. Or if this was, say, Season 4 and not 10.  But now, short of Carol's menagerie of dead kids calling her up on the proverbial walkie talkie while headless ghost Alpha traipses through the fields in a wedding dress, we've just been there seen that one time too many. 

Beyond that, I rather enjoyed Carol and Negan's scenes.  If we timeline events out, she let him out and then still went on her cave spelunking misadventure, probably because she was too impatient for a resolution and didn't fully trust Negan to hold up his end of the bargain.  The actors played well off of each other and it was fun to see Negan, who's pretty much had everybody's number in showing he has a fairly good understanding of human nature when he's not blowharding about, get so easily played with a fairly nonspecific promise he probably should have realized Carol doesn't really have the means or inclination to follow through on.  There was a real vibe of don't bullshit a bullshitter running through their scenes, but he's so painfully eager to no longer be Negan the maniac who baseball batted or otherwise murdered the loved ones of the same people he now wants acceptance from that he didn't see it.  Because it's Negan, I also really don't care that she left him twisting in the wind.  JDM is giving it his all in trying to sell a character who's both ready to move on while still being susceptible to the lure of the kind of power being the new Alpha would have given him, which makes for great scenes like him trying to have a real heart to heart with Daryl only to be met with "So? You think I care about any of this?" 

But seriously, show? This redemption arc is a hard enough sell without Daryl letting Negan's claim that Alpha had to die because you don't kill people who didn't do anything and you never kill kids go unchallenged.  Negan killed plenty of people for no other reason than to be object lessons and would have gleefully killed Carl had he not been conveniently interrupted by plot reasons.  Our other characters have done plenty as well, but the show seems to forget that even though it's been six or seven years showtime, it hasn't been that long for viewers.

[CrazyDog]

21 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Beyond that, I rather enjoyed Carol and Negan's scenes.  If we timeline events out, she let him out and then still went on her cave spelunking misadventure, probably because she was too impatient for a resolution and didn't fully trust Negan to hold up his end of the bargain.  The actors played well off of each other and it was fun to see Negan, who's pretty much had everybody's number in showing he has a fairly good understanding of human nature when he's not blowharding about, get so easily played with a fairly nonspecific promise he probably should have realized Carol doesn't really have the means or inclination to follow through on.  There was a real vibe of don't bullshit a bullshitter running through their scenes, but he's so painfully eager to no longer be Negan the maniac who baseball batted or otherwise murdered the loved ones of the same people he now wants acceptance from that he didn't see it.  Because it's Negan, I also really don't care that she left him twisting in the wind.  JDM is giving it his all in trying to sell a character who's both ready to move on while still being susceptible to the lure of the kind of power being the new Alpha would have given him, which makes for great scenes like him trying to have a real heart to heart with Daryl only to be met with "So? You think I care about any of this?" 

But seriously, show? This redemption arc is a hard enough sell without Daryl letting Negan's claim that Alpha had to die because you don't kill people who didn't do anything and you never kill kids go unchallenged.  Negan killed plenty of people for no other reason than to be object lessons and would have gleefully killed Carl had he not been conveniently interrupted by plot reasons.  Our other characters have done plenty as well, but the show seems to forget that even though it's been six or seven years showtime, it hasn't been that long for viewers.

I forgot that I actually did enjoy the Carol and Negan scene. The actors play well together.

But I agree, if the writers were better, they would "redeem" Negan by having him acknowledge his past deeds (can he not even say Glenn and Abe's names out loud?) and say he doesn't want to be that person anymore. Instead they give him that weak line about never killing people who don't deserve it, or kids. C'MON. 

[rmontro]

11 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

I was wondering if Carol had ever had a conversation with Alpha, or heard her speaking? If not, she couldn't have hallucinated that accent.

She at least heard her speak when she tried to shoot her awhile back.  

I also liked the scene with Carol and Negan in the jail cell.  That and Beta's Half Moon zombie concert were probably the only high spots.

Negan should have just left it at "you don't kill kids", and it wouldn't have been an issue.

[CletusMusashi]

20 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Negan should have just left it at "you don't kill kids", and it wouldn't have been an issue.

But he tried to. The only reason he didn't smash Coral's head open was that Maggie and Shiva showed up just in the nick of time. So all he really has is a Sideshow Bob defense. "Attempted murder? What is that really? Do they give a Nobel prize for attempted chemistry?"

[mrspidey]

13 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

"You don't kill people that don't deserve it, and you don't kill kids." - Negan.

Show? What the actual fuck? Do you really think we are as brain-dead as that, when we know full well and saw Negan had no inhibitions about killing innocents and kids. 

He's never killed kids.  And from his point of view, Glenn and Abe did deserve it because they were part of a group who had massacred an entire saviour outpost completely unprovoked. 

Remember how they killed them all in their sleep just because fucking Gregory told them to?

 

[iMonrey]

Quote

I hated everything about Beta in this episode.   Why the hell would I care that he was a singer?  Does that really move the (record) needle? 

Oh for the love of Criminy. Between this and Talking Dead I get the distinct impression I'm supposed to be way more interested in Beta than I am. To me, he is the flimsiest of the various cartoon villains that have plagued this show for the past several seasons. Primarily because we never see his real face, but also because he's just crazy for the sake of being crazy and there is no real depth to him or reason for him. I'm so over the Whisperers and I've never been interested in Beta and never will be.

By the same token the show is obviously trying to make Magna and Yumiko main characters and I still struggle to even remember their names. True story - actually had to look up Yumiko again on IMDB because I literally cannot remember her name. The show is crap at fleshing out new characters. They are either cartoons or unmemorable background extras.

Quote

If we timeline events out, she let him out and then still went on her cave spelunking misadventure, probably because she was too impatient for a resolution and didn't fully trust Negan to hold up his end of the bargain. 

Or . . . the writers pulled this latest plot twist out of these asses and had no prior plans to link Carol to Negan's escape when they wrote the first half of this season.

[rmontro]

42 minutes ago, CletusMusashi said:

But he tried to. The only reason he didn't smash Coral's head open was that Maggie and Shiva showed up just in the nick of time. 

True.  I never thought that moment was in character for Negan, because he always respected and had an affinity for Carl.  So my issue is more with that episode than with his current statement.  Either way, sloppy writing. 

[mightysparrow]

1 hour ago, CrazyDog said:

I forgot that I actually did enjoy the Carol and Negan scene. The actors play well together.

But I agree, if the writers were better, they would "redeem" Negan by having him acknowledge his past deeds (can he not even say Glenn and Abe's names out loud?) and say he doesn't want to be that person anymore. Instead they give him that weak line about never killing people who don't deserve it, or kids. C'MON. 

Most of the characters left didn't even know Glen and Abraham and weren't there to see what Negan did to them. 

It's all well and good for Queen Carol to negotiate Negan's forgiveness because she has no skin in this fight.  But she was willing to burn BOTH communities down and sacrifice any number of people to get revenge for her sniveling brat Henry.  Ask Connie how she feels.

It made me sick to see Daryl willingly breathe the same air as Negan.  I guess it's supposed to be okay with the audience now that Negan has the Daryl and Carol Seal of Approval.  But I say FUCK HIM and FUCK THEM TOO. 

Negan needs to die.  He can die saving somebody; that can be his redemption.  But he can't live among decent people.  He's lost that right.

 

 

 

[Boofish]

I actually think Negan and Daryl make sort of a bad ass team and I enjoyed their scene together now that Negan no longer has the upper hand. I have decided (in my own head and my own narrative) that Negan's speech about killing is the result of who he is now and not what he has done in the past. At this point, If I want to continue to enjoy the show (which I do) I need to forget about who did what in the past. Honestly all they asses were shady in one way or another. None of them are John Dorie or Jerry - lovable good guys who aren't annoying and self righteous.

Season 2 Carol reemerging in Season 10 is a drag after Season 5 and 6 Carol. Even Negan knew the legend of Carol.

[AngelaHunter]

51 minutes ago, mrspidey said:

He's never killed kids.  And from his point of view, Glenn and Abe did deserve it because they were part of a group who had massacred an entire saviour outpost completely unprovoked. 

Remember how they killed them all in their sleep just because fucking Gregory told them to?

He was certainly just about to kill Carl, who didn't deserve it and who was (supposed to be) a kid. He brutally murdered the doctor (who didn't deserve it) and there was his hot-iron torturing and his on-going rapes of those women. But maybe he thinks they all deserved it. 

I've never had a problem with him offing Glenn and Abe. In fact I thought he was rather restrained after all of his people Rick&Gang murdered in their beds.

ETA: Wasn't it actually Jesus who told Rick to murder the Saviors?

Edited March 30, 2020 by AngelaHunter

[AngelaHunter]

15 minutes ago, mightysparrow said:

It's all well and good for Queen Carol to negotiate Negan's forgiveness because she has no skin in this fight.  But she was willing to burn BOTH communities down and sacrifice any number of people to get revenge for her sniveling brat Henry.  Ask Connie how she feels.

It made me sick to see Daryl willingly breathe the same air as Negan.  I guess it's supposed to be okay with the audience now that Negan has the Daryl and Carol Seal of Approval.  But I say FUCK HIM and FUCK THEM TOO. 

Negan needs to die.  He can die saving somebody; that can be his redemption.  But he can't live among decent people.  He's lost that right.

I wish I could give this more than one "like".

[CletusMusashi]

48 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

By the same token the show is obviously trying to make Magna and Yumiko main characters and I still struggle to even remember their names. True story - actually had to look up Yumiko again on IMDB because I literally cannot remember her name. The show is crap at fleshing out new characters. They are either cartoons or unmemorable background extras.

Yumiko is easy to remember. A yumi is a Japanese longbow. Just like the hot-tempered one has a name that's only one letter removed from "magma." I predict that in one more season they're going to completely say "fuck it" and start introducing characters named "Fat Man" and "Girl with Hat."

[nodorothyparker]

Negan has already been living among decent people though, for years first as their prisoner and then on whatever half-assed version of a work release program they were trying to do.  And in that time the show made a point of letting every character who did have a very good reason to want Negan dead get the chance to take him out, only to whiff on it when it meant actually dirtying their hands with it. The closest they ever seemed to get was inching toward death by vote of council.  So now what remains of the community is stuck with him.  They seem to be signaling that loud and clear with him now so painfully eager to ingratiate himself with them all and him doing the good deed of lopping off Alpha's head to "earn" it.  Even Daryl had nothing to say on that point.   He could tell Dwight to run and never come back for his part in the Great Savior War, but Negan they'll keep around.

It seems inevitable that watching any version of our group going forward is also going to mean watching a group that includes Negan to some degree, even if individual characters continue to be unhappy about it.  The show has spoken.

[CletusMusashi]

Michonne should have brought him with her. I mean, the jail is in her laundry room.

Who's supposed to be in charge of it now? Judith?

[nodorothyparker]

They let Judith make all the major decisions for the adults now and treat her like she's some pint-sized oracle of wisdom.  I guess that means she really is in charge.

[CletusMusashi]

Coral also started being viewed as as some kind of Very Special Prophet during his last season. I think it's the hat. Maybe all Negan has to do in order to get everyone to like him is steal Judith's hat. 

[Sam Spayaid]

Do the writers and the others who put on the show, ever sit down and watch the finished product? From start to finish?

Sure doesn't seem so because they are always on "Talk" congratulating themselves and patting themselves on the back over what an ah-maz-ing episode it was and yet we viewers, have a totally different reaction. You know...the old, "were we even watching the same show?!!" response?

15 hours ago, AngelaHunter said:

How does Negan manage to maintain his stylish "Depression-era, Grapes of Wrath Ex-Con" hairdo, anyway?

Funny, I thought the same thing. Around his ears? It's trimmed to PERFECTION.

[rmontro]

52 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

the show made a point of letting every character who did have a very good reason to want Negan dead get the chance to take him out, only to whiff on it when it meant actually dirtying their hands with it.

Maybe Negan is TWD's version of Gollum.  "It was pity that stayed Bilbo's hand".  Or mercy.

[Boofish]

32 minutes ago, Sam Spayaid said:

Funny, I thought the same thing. Around his ears? It's trimmed to PERFECTION.

The same way Jacqui perm and curls stayed fresh during Season 1.

[CrazyDog]

2 hours ago, mrspidey said:

He's never killed kids.  And from his point of view, Glenn and Abe did deserve it because they were part of a group who had massacred an entire saviour outpost completely unprovoked. 

Remember how they killed them all in their sleep just because fucking Gregory told them to?

 

I think it was mentioned at one point that he killed a teenager from Hilltop(?). Am I mis-remembering? I think it was in the scene when one of the Hilltopians showed up and tried to take out Gregory in exchange for getting a hostage back from the saviors. And then Rick took that guy out.

And has been noted, he was totally going to kill Carl.

Edited March 30, 2020 by CrazyDog

[iMonrey]

Quote

Yumiko is easy to remember. A yumi is a Japanese longbow. Just like the hot-tempered one has a name that's only one letter removed from "magma." I predict that in one more season they're going to completely say "fuck it" and start introducing characters named "Fat Man" and "Girl with Hat."

There are already characters like that. There's that one chick who was one of the Savior's main goons who wound up at Hilltop and to this day I don't know her name, I always call her "that Savior lady." 

I hate to say it because I'd probably hate it, but if they wanted us to care at all about Luke, Connie, Magna, and Yumiko they should have devoted an episode to flashbacks showing how they met, what their lives were pre-apocalypse, etc. Instead they just wandered in one day and Judith went "you're good" and that was it. Why the hell am I supposed to care about these randos? I still don't know them. 

And there was Jerry hugging Magna like they're besties and I'm wondering "how the hell does Jerry even know her?" 

Quote

Sure doesn't seem so because they are always on "Talk" congratulating themselves and patting themselves on the back over what an ah-maz-ing episode it was and yet we viewers, have a totally different reaction. You know...the old, "were we even watching the same show?!!" response?

So this week they pointed out that there was supposed to be some significance to the ax that Beta saw in the cabin, because in a previous episode, when he was fighting with Daryl an ax was used to push him down an elevator shaft, or something. And I'm like "really? This is what the show is devoting its energy to? These stupid little Easter eggs they think anyone gives a shit about? Maybe they should focus more on writing a cohesive story that makes sense."

[heisenberg]

6 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Why the hell would I care that he was a singer?  Does that really move the (record) needle?

That's what it was all about?  The whisper dude regognized him without his mask, he broke his guitar and...  Listened a record from himself?   I had no clue, thanks.

It would have been a lot more significant if he had sing "There's a tear in my beer 'cause I cry for you dear" while watching Alpha's head...

[nodorothyparker]

10 minutes ago, CrazyDog said:

I think it was mentioned at one point that he killed a teenager from Hilltop(?). Am I mis-remembering? I think it was in the scene when one of the Hilltopians showed up and tried to take out Gregory in exchange for getting a hostage back from the saviors. And then Rick took that guy out.

You're correct that the Hilltoppers told Rick and the gang that the Saviors had killed a teenager this way and then immediately struck the will go a murderin' for canned goods deal that sent to them to Savior outpost on very incomplete intel.  Our group never knew the kid and never saw it happen.  They took Jesus and Gregory's word for it.  Sure, there were plenty of Polaroids of smashed in heads at the outpost, so it probably did happen more or less as they said, but for all the Saviors knew it was an entirely unprovoked attack.  It also came after Daryl and Abraham's group blew up a random group of Saviors they encountered on the road.  

[AngelaHunter]

9 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

You're correct that the Hilltoppers told Rick and the gang that the Saviors had killed a teenager this way

And we were supposed to think Negan had no clue that Simon took a gang and killed all the men and boys at Oceanside, and acted all afronted when he found out, but not affronted enough about the slaughter to punish Simon in any way.

 

[MDL]

10 minutes ago, heisenberg said:

That's what it was all about?  The whisper dude regognized him without his mask, he broke his guitar and...  Listened a record from himself?   I had no clue, thanks.

I thought, and may be wrong, that Beta blasted his recording over loudspeakers to attract the hoard of walkers.

(maybe it was the overdone sound track, but I thought that it was a plot point??)

[AngelaHunter]

12 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

It also came after Daryl and Abraham's group blew up a random group of Saviors they encountered on the road. 

Daryl had to use his magic circular rocket to do that because like all the baddies on this show, the Saviors sat there monologuing endlessly about how they were going to kill Abe, Sasha (and someone else?) right there, instead of just doing it.

[nodorothyparker]

1 minute ago, AngelaHunter said:

And we were supposed to think Negan had no clue that Simon took a gang and killed all the men and boys at Oceanside, and acted all afronted when he found out, but not affronted enough about the slaughter to punish Simon in any way.

Yep, that reveal was when I more or less realized that the redemption bus was coming for Negan and we'd be stuck with him forever.  Suddenly, Simon was responsible for all of Negan's most evil deeds.  Sure, we saw the guy baseball bat people we cared about to death, iron or throw other people into fires, and have a harem, but it was mostly just a big misunderstanding.  If it wasn't, Rick wouldn't have let him live, right?  Right?

[Ohwell]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

And there was Jerry hugging Magna like they're besties and I'm wondering "how the hell does Jerry even know her?" 

I wondered about that too.

[AngelaHunter]

4 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

I predict that in one more season they're going to completely say "fuck it" and start introducing characters named "Fat Man" and "Girl with Hat."

Or "Barcode Bitch", "Osso bucco guy", or "Bunch of guys wearing cowboy hats". Speaking of which, I still have nearly zero memory of them, whoever they were.

 

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

If it wasn't, Rick wouldn't have let (Negan) live, right?  Right?

Well, he "tried". He tried SO hard to kill him, but gee - he just couldn't quite manage it. I wonder if he would have tried harder if Negan HAD killed Coral or chopped his arm off. I guess it's best he didn't since Negan is now the good guy, saving kids and dogs in snowstorms, being benevolent uncle Neeg to Judith and Lydia, teaching kids about nut taps and getting rid of Awful. What's not to love?

I think Daryl and his new buddy, Negan, need to give us a chorus of "Oh, Carol!" (Sorry. I'm getting a little stir-crazy)

🎶Oh! Carol I am but a fool

So darling I love you,

I love you though you treat me cruel🎵

 

[Lady Iris]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

By the same token the show is obviously trying to make Magna and Yumiko main characters and I still struggle to even remember their names. True story - actually had to look up Yumiko again on IMDB because I literally cannot remember her name. The show is crap at fleshing out new characters. They are either cartoons or unmemorable background extras.

Thank you for reminding me of Magna’s name. I just refer to her as ZA Lady Gaga.

[AngelaHunter]

2 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

Thank you for reminding me of Magna’s name. I just refer to her as ZA Lady Gaga.

I've always called her "Magma". It's the only way I can remember who she is, not that I give a damn.

[CletusMusashi]

2 hours ago, Lady Iris said:

Thank you for reminding me of Magna’s name. I just refer to her as ZA Lady Gaga.

I thought Alpha was ZA Lady Gaga, what with the meat suit and all...

Work was very short tonight; I can't believe I'm back here posting about this stupid show again already. You know what, though? At least this episode was pretty damned entertaining. Silly as hell, yes, but infinitely better than the previous entry. I could see what was going on, I often enjoyed what was going on, or at least was interested in it, and even in scenes that I didn't understand I was like "Why is that person in that place doing that thing?" I wasn't like "Hey, who's in this scene? What are they doing? Is this supposed to real or not?"

Although maybe it would be fun to just start taking everything at face value.

Zombies and chupacabras are real. Why not ghosts? 

Edited March 31, 2020 by CletusMusashi