S03.E09: Fire Pink

[luna1122]

5 hours ago, SoWindsor said:

I find that when your protagonist is a bad person but the acting & writing is good, you root for them even though they are criminals. Other examples are Tony Soprano, Walter White, etc. So yes, we should find Marty & Wendy Bryde intolerable but don’t because the character writing & acting is so good you can’t help but root for them. Jason Bateman plays Marty as extremely likeable which shouldn’t make sense but does. 

I have depression and understand mental illness but I just did not like the Ben character. Not sure if it was the writing or acting or what exactly but I did not find myself moved by his character. 

I hate all of those characters mentioned. Loathe them. I couldn't wait for Walter White to die. I admire the skill involved in the acting and writing but I am actively ultimately rooting for Wendy to die and Marty to get locked up forever. Or die. At the end of the series run. In no way do I root for them, no matter how cute I think Jason Bateman is. 

I CAN root for the bad guy. Two of my biggest TV crushes are a handsome cannibal and an erudite Kentucky criminal. Though ultimately I even wanted them to get justice. 

I'm rambling with no real point. But I was really moved by Ben,  and by Tom Pelphrey's performance, and ultimately I want marty and wendy to pay dearly for their crimes. 

Ruth, tho. I do still want Ruth to come out of all of this somehow. I don't see that happening tho. 

 

[Maysie]

I actually liked having Ben around and I thought his presence actually helped the plot because it gave us some additional insight into the existing characters. Yes, we could have ended up in the same place without him, but I like knowing that Ruth can fall in love and that she can care about people beyond her clan. I think Ben's story is also going to impact Jonah next season. And I may be in the minority, but frankly Ben's presence did take away from the FBI agent/Helen's daughter/Helen/Wyatt & Darlene storylines a bit and I'm fine with that because I didn't want anymore of them.

I have known bipolar people but I haven't been around them enough to know if Ben's issue was portrayed realistically or not (though one of the bipolar people I know ended up killing himself, and Ben sure seemed to be self-destructive). There is one thing that does resonate for me, and that is when someone gets something in their head, mentally ill or mentally well, it can often be damned near impossible to get it out of their head. What makes sense to me may not make sense to you and vice versa, so the fact that Wendy couldn't "talk sense" into Ben, or the fact that he wouldn't stay on the ranch when common sense would say otherwise works for me because he was fixated on something.

Also, telling someone to "just take your meds" is so easy for me and most everyone else who doesn't have to take medication to function "normally". However, I've known a few people who take meds who quit taking them because (like Ben), they didn't like the way the medication made them feel, and like Ben, it had some significant consequences (suicide). 

I think Mary and Wendy are absolutely awful human beings but I'm kind of impressed at how confident they are. They both think they can talk anyone into anything and seem genuinely surprised when they don't actually get their way. The fact that Marty thought he could turn an FBI agent so quickly and easily kind of blew my mind, but not as much as Wendy behaving as though she has actual real influence with Navarro. Maybe I'll be surprised, but he controls the Byrdes, not the other way around, and they'll be around as long as it serves his purpose, unless something happens with the cartel or the FBI to take him out.

I hate Helen too, and her daughter is a pain in the ass, however at least she hasn't brought her children into the game. Marty and Wendy literally made their illegal enterprise a family affair and it's all sorts of fucked up that they don't appear to have any real regret over that. I can't say that Zeke is actually worse off with Darlene at this point.

[DoctorAtomic]

23 hours ago, Maysie said:

The fact that Marty thought he could turn an FBI agent so quickly and easily kind of blew my mind, but not as much as Wendy behaving as though she has actual real influence with Navarro.

They kind of did though. 

[Sir RaiderDuck OMS]

On 3/29/2020 at 4:35 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

Wow Ben's monologue in the taxi was interminable. I'm amazed at how much I don't care about this character. 

I had a great laugh though when Ben is ranting how about he 'spoke to the bitch lawyer' and Marty and Ruth are all, 'uh, what?'

Ruth was on Ben's side and furious with Marty right up until Ben said that he'd confronted Helen. Ruth immediately grabbed Ben's stuff and told him to go with Marty and follow his directions to the letter. She totally understood the line that had been crossed.

On 3/30/2020 at 8:56 AM, teddysmom said:

I saw a lot of comments that his bipolar was extreme but very realistic when people suffering from it are off meds and stressed out.  That's the whole point, they over react to nothing, have delusions, and convince themselves they are right and everyone else is wrong.

Bipolar people off their meds will get fixated on something, real or imagined, and let that dominate their minds. It could be anything: I've seen bipolar people in their 30s suddenly fly into a rage because they remembered that time in the third grade when their parents made them wear a dorky outfit to school. They get a thought in their heads and can't let go.

On 3/30/2020 at 2:24 PM, roughing it said:

Great actor, but it definitely turned into The Ben Show.  And Ben stopped taking his meds because he couldn't get a boner to have sex with Ruth.  So crazy with boner or sane with no boner.  They'll choose sex every time.  (To quote Elaine Benes "I don't know how you guys walk around with those things")

Couldn't he have just stayed on his meds and taken a Viagra when he wanted to be with Ruth?

On 3/30/2020 at 6:28 PM, Lemons said:

His sister would know that being in a hospital would not kill him.  It’s common to go into the hospital when the symptoms of the illness are too severe to handle.  It’s a relief for a lot of patients.

A former co-worker of mine was severely bipolar and would disappear (on Leave) for a couple weeks at a time twice a year. I once remarked that he was gone again and was quietly told that whenever he was gone for more than a few days, it meant his meds had become imbalanced, so he would check himself into a mental hospital until they were adjusted properly again.

On 3/31/2020 at 8:20 PM, Mr. R0b0t said:

Ben needed to be dealt with.  Now why they couldn't get him stabilized on meds with Ruth's support I cannot figure out other than plot reasons.

Some bipolar people just refuse to take their meds. They can't see how off the rails they are. What were Ruth and Marty supposed to do: wrestle Ben to the ground multiple times a day and force the pills down his throat? You can only help someone who wants to be helped.

On 4/8/2020 at 10:42 PM, MrsR said:

Ben was that dog you love but who just can't be trusted with a child.

He wasn't killed, he was put down.

For us Walking Dead fans, it was a "Look at the flowers!" moment.

[AZChristian]

1 hour ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

Couldn't he have just stayed on his meds and taken a Viagra when he wanted to be with Ruth?

Sildenafil (Viagra) can cause a relapse in bipolar illness.  So even if he stayed on his bipolar meds, the Viagra could have triggered a bipolar episode.

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

Couldn't he have just stayed on his meds and taken a Viagra when he wanted to be with Ruth?

I wouldn't be surprised if the viagra didn't work, and you'd probably need to find a doctor to write a prescription. Also, it's a shot at his masculinity. I could roll with him on this choice. 

2 hours ago, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

What were Ruth and Marty supposed to do: wrestle Ben to the ground multiple times a day and force the pills down his throat? You can only help someone who wants to be helped.

No, but Ruth could have left him in the hospital and railed on Marty to get him moved to the private facility, which he, Wendy, or Helen could have hatched a plan to get done. It's hard to suspend disbelief that they couldn't have pulled it off given what they've done. Now - I could have bought that they were in process and he still got out. But it was ridiculous that they were like, 'oh nothing we can do now.'

 

[IvySpice]

I'm not going to go into how I know about mental illness and medication, but I know.

Ben beat that guy at the bar in Kansas City within an inch of his life.* Marty and Wendy did not seem the slightest bit surprised by that. Wendy told Ruth that he's "dangerous." So the show told us that beating people within an inch of their lives is pretty much unmedicated Ben's M.O. That being the case, Ben's not just "making bad choices." He is knowingly entering a state in which he could murder anyone around him at any time. 

Ben decided, while lucid, that he just didn't want to take drugs any more because he couldn't get it up/didn't like how he felt. If you have intolerable side effects (I'm talking about kidney failure, not impotence), then the responsible thing to do is taper off under medical supervision...you don't flush them. You flush them because manic episodes are your drug and you want to get high again and you don't care who gets hurt.

So given his history of violence, Ben bears full moral responsibility for the injuries he did to people while in his manic phase. I don't have a lot of pity for adults who refuse help.

I wonder who on the writing staff has a bipolar person in their close family. It felt like someone had a story to tell.

*As a lawyer, there was another plot hole to me...slamming that guy's head against the bar would likely have been charged as attempted murder, and given the North Carolina warrants, I don't believe Ben would have gotten out on bail.

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't know anything about mental illness, but the cold open where Ben threw the phones into the wood chipper and beat the guy up was enough to establish that this behavior in the KC bar wasn't out of nowhere. 

I think the character was strictly a (unnecessary) plot device to get Ruth to split, but they at least set up sufficient internal show consistency to justify the end result that being an expert in bipolar disorder wasn't needed. 

Ruth all so in love for him was not internally consistent imo. In fact, I don't even know if it was necessary at all. Ruth could have sprung him out of spite for them not acting on Frank Jr and that would have been more consistent. Or her guilt for ruining Wyatt's life so she thought Wendy might be ruining Ben's life. 

 

[bannana]

On 3/30/2020 at 8:44 PM, andreamf15 said:

but the bipolar people I know even off their meds (because all of them aren't compliant) still wouldn't try to act a fool with the cartel repeatedly.

I have relatives who are b-polar and would absolutely act like Ben off his meds.  Sadly.

[DoctorAtomic]

Don't hate the player hate the game. 

To be fair, Marty told Ben to go. Wendy had him stay out of spite. I think she made the right call in the end. Also, we're operating in bizarre universe here that is way outside our normal reality. 

 

[AZChristian]

9 hours ago, bannana said:

She fucking killed her own brother.  And then she cried a lot about it. 

She realized that she couldn't control what he did, so it was either sacrificing him or putting herself, her husband, and their kids in a position of life-threatening danger.

She was in a lose/lose situation.

[TexasGal]

Hey everyone - I've had to hide a few posts that have commented on events from the start of the next episode.  Please keep to this episode only, or take the discussion to the Season 3 thread.

[Suzywriter]

Wendy killed Ben. She left him at the restaurant knowing that he was going to be killed. 

Ok, help me here. Did she plot with Helen that a hitman would come kill Ben after she ditched him and left him a sitting duck?

[AZChristian]

4 hours ago, Suzywriter said:

Wendy killed Ben. She left him at the restaurant knowing that he was going to be killed. 

Ok, help me here. Did she plot with Helen that a hitman would come kill Ben after she ditched him and left him a sitting duck?

Wendy said she'd called Helen before she even got to the restaurant with Ben.  That would have given Nelson (the hit man) plenty of time to get on the road and meet up with them while they were having dinner.

[sadie]

On 4/9/2020 at 11:30 PM, luna1122 said:

I CAN root for the bad guy. Two of my biggest TV crushes are a handsome cannibal and an erudite Kentucky criminal. Though ultimately I even wanted them to get justice

Boyd Crowder would have no patience for these fools. Lol

Seriously I was ready to kill Ben myself mid episode. He was mentally ill, not insane, so his actions made no sense and I was tired for Wendy by about the third double cross he did on her when she was literally trying to save his life. And Ruth’s motivations made no sense either, she’s been shown to be pretty smart yet she couldn’t see what a danger this guy was to her and everyone else? Bye Ben, you won’t be missed. 

[NUguy514]

On 4/18/2020 at 1:10 PM, sadie said:

He was mentally ill, not insane, so his actions made no sense

The literal definition of insanity is "the state of being seriously mentally ill; madness"; they're one and the same.  His actions made perfect sense to me because they were so insane; they should be insane given the state he was in.

I'm just going to go ahead and pencil in Laura Linney's and Tom Pelphrey's names for Lead Actress in a Drama and Supporting Actor in a Drama, respectively, at the Emmys.

But first, I have to stop crying.

[bannana]

On 4/17/2020 at 10:44 AM, AZChristian said:

She realized that she couldn't control what he did, so it was either sacrificing him or putting herself, her husband, and their kids in a position of life-threatening danger.

She was in a lose/lose situation.

She  had so many other choices.  

I really didn't like Wendy in this season, but now, she is unredeemable.  As is Marty, for his complicity and the cavalier way he has treated Ruth.  Though I think Marty is suffering from PTSD.

Wendy was just ambitious.

[Musicismyjam]

On 4/9/2020 at 1:42 AM, MrsR said:

Ben was that dog you love but who just can't be trusted with a child.

He wasn't killed, he was put down.

Perfect analogy! Heartbreaking, but necessary   (to the plot, at least). 

[Johnny Dollar]

Sorry, I’m definitely getting all the Ben hate on these boards. I thought the entire arc and evolution of the character fit brilliantly into the family dynamic.  The Sopranos wasn’t as great as it was because of all the mob hits. I thought Pelphrey’s performance in both 8 and 9 were absolutely heartbreaking.  He was like a scared kid just trying to help but knowing that anything he did just made things worse. 

[chick binewski]

On 4/9/2020 at 11:30 PM, luna1122 said:

I couldn't wait for Walter White to die. I admire the skill involved in the acting and writing but I am actively ultimately rooting for Wendy to die and Marty to get locked up forever. Or die. At the end of the series run. In no way do I root for them, no matter how cute I think Jason Bateman is. 

I CAN root for the bad guy. Two of my biggest TV crushes are a handsome cannibal and an erudite Kentucky criminal. Though ultimately I even wanted them to get justice. 

I'm rambling with no real point. But I was really moved by Ben,  and by Tom Pelphrey's performance, and ultimately I want marty and wendy to pay dearly for their crimes. 

Ruth, tho. I do still want Ruth to come out of all of this somehow. I don't see that happening tho. 

 

 

On 4/21/2020 at 1:33 AM, bannana said:

She  had so many other choices.  

I really didn't like Wendy in this season, but now, she is unredeemable.  As is Marty, for his complicity and the cavalier way he has treated Ruth.  Though I think Marty is suffering from PTSD.

Wendy was just ambitious.

Yeah, it's difficult for me to see Marty as someone to root for and Wendy is simply irredeemable to me (although Linney killed that crying jag). Both of them walked into this with eyes open and were repeatedly shown where all roads lead. And then Wendy leans in and doubles down to to leave no doubt that the family will never escape a life which she clearly relishes.

The show may have spent too much time on Ben but I don't really understand the hate. It makes sense to me that the first sensitive man we see truly pursuing Ruth romantically is someone she'd fall for - Marty just had to give her a job and a little attention and she became a devotee (I understand there is more to their dynamic but it's a clearly unequal relationship and Ruth's face killed me when Marty gave her a to-do list without looking up right after she was released from the hospital).

I do think Ben's journey from jail to hospital to cab ride WAS poorly done 1. bc I don't believe Ruth would have let him leave the hospital alone and 2. to me the way Helen was acting I was sure she already had a plan to off Ben in the hospital. But based on Ben's opening scene - a sense of overwhelming frustration that basic decency was foreign to a classroom of kids followed by that bipolar grandiosity that brings an inflated sense of self - we were clued in exactly how this would play out. Yet Wendy kept her brother around simply to disagree with her husband.

That being said (mildly spoiler-ish for season finale)...

Spoiler

I'm all over the theory that Ben is still alive only because it made zero sense why we never saw his face at the funeral home.

 

[bannana]

7 hours ago, chick binewski said:

 

Yeah, it's difficult for me to see Marty as someone to root for and Wendy is simply irredeemable to me (although Linney killed that crying jag). Both of them walked into this with eyes open and were repeatedly shown where all roads lead. And then Wendy leans in and doubles down to to leave no doubt that the family will never escape a life which she clearly relishes.

The show may have spent too much time on Ben but I don't really understand the hate. It makes sense to me that the first sensitive man we see truly pursuing Ruth romantically is someone she'd fall for - Marty just had to give her a job and a little attention and she became a devotee (I understand there is more to their dynamic but it's a clearly unequal relationship and Ruth's face killed me when Marty gave her a to-do list without looking up right after she was released from the hospital).

I do think Ben's journey from jail to hospital to cab ride WAS poorly done 1. bc I don't believe Ruth would have let him leave the hospital alone and 2. to me the way Helen was acting I was sure she already had a plan to off Ben in the hospital. But based on Ben's opening scene - a sense of overwhelming frustration that basic decency was foreign to a classroom of kids followed by that bipolar grandiosity that brings an inflated sense of self - we were clued in exactly how this would play out. Yet Wendy kept her brother around simply to disagree with her husband.

That being said (mildly spoiler-ish for season finale)...

  Hide contents

I'm all over the theory that Ben is still alive only because it made zero sense why we never saw his face at the funeral home.

 

Yes, re your spoiler, I kept wanting to believe this and I guess I still do.

 

[Biggie B]

I'm just now catching up on this show - been binge-watching it for the past two weeks and will anxiously watch the last ep this weekend.

I was thinking that Wendy wouldn't have taken Ben back to Darlene's because then she (Wendy) would be beholden to Darlene, and that's the last thing on earth Wendy would want - to be indebted to Darlene for doing such a big favor.

Ben bugged the crap out of me but it seemed logical that he'd make an appearance at some point, after he was first mentioned much earlier in the show (when Marty and Wendy were so concerned about Jonah's behavior). As Ruth is my favorite character, it was nice to see her have someone truly care about her. Marty cares for her, not romantically, obviously, but he is always so quick to shunt her aside and cut her off - he's always telling her "Later, later, not now, can't talk now." For better or worse, Ben was always there for her and put her first. With a family that treated her like crap (deserved or not), it must have been stunning for her to be the recipient of Ben's affection.

As for whether one can root for Marty and/or Wendy - that's a great topic with lots of meat on the bone. I for one do not like Wendy - there is something about the character that grates on me, and I think she and Marty bring out the worst in each other. I feel like she's an intrinsically mean person. Marty of course has done awful things for over a decade but they weren't "mean" things (not that they were good things either!) He also seems to possess the ability to look after another person with best intentions. He destroyed Rachel's life but tried to do right by her at the end of her story line. Whereas I don't think Wendy would've done the same for Rachel. In some ways, I am rooting for Marty on his own. Yes, he's working for a horrible man, Navarro and that's a choice he made, with consequences...as he is so fond of telling Wendy - choices and consequences - but I sorta feel like he is compartmentalizing everything and trying to do what he does, with blinders on. The dirty, awful, bloody, deathly part of his job he shunts off into a corner.

If Maya is about to have a baby, will someone take her place if the warrant gets extended? As mentioned, I haven't yet seen Ep 10, so perhaps that will be answered. 

[AZChristian]

35 minutes ago, Biggie B said:

As for whether one can root for Marty and/or Wendy - that's a great topic with lots of meat on the bone. I for one do not like Wendy - there is something about the character that grates on me, and I think she and Marty bring out the worst in each other.

I so agree.  Neither one of them will accept that the other might be an equal partner in their business or their marriage.  And they both go off making decisions and behaving like they're single individuals with no obligation to consult anyone about what they do.

[Dobian]

I get that Ben is a polarizing character, people either like him or hate him (I don't think anyone really "loves" Ben, he makes you too crazy).  But it was crushing watching him face his assassin alone outside that restaurant with Wendy nowhere to be found.

[TVbitch]

I am always surprised when people root for characters such as Wendy and Marty. I am sometimes entertained by their fictional antics, but I loathe them and want them both to pay for their crimes and for what they have done to their children and other innocent people. 

Instead of arranging a hit on her brother, Wendy could have arranged to poison him or kill him in his sleep or something, and then let the hitman dude disappear the body. But Wendy don't like to get her hands dirty, so she ditches him in the diner and lets his last few moments of life be abandonment, confusion, terror and pain as the hitman takes him out. But hey, she cried afterwards, so I feel super bad for her. 

[Sunnykm]

*Helen made the deal with the sheriff to put Ben in a state facility to spite Wendy's plan for a private one.  Also to show her power of the Byrde's lives.

*My opinion of Ben and his mental illness was not bipolar but schizo-affective.  He had delusions; ruminating thoughts that took over his thinking; poor decision making. 

*Often families will call a loved one's diagnosis bipolar instead of schiz due to the stigma associated with schiz.  BTW  sexual dysfunction is not a common side effect of atypical anti-psychotics.  Restlessness and weight gain top the list.

*There are long-acting injectable meds for both bipolar and schz.  30-60-90 days of medication in one injection.  This helps with compliance.  Those with schizo-affective and schz will feel much better and normal on medication and then stop taking it because they feel normal and then decompensate.

*I wish Ruth would have had a better love interest.  She thinks the world of Marty--I would expect her to want a man with his qualities.  Ben didn't work and acted very strangely at times, I am not sure what she would see in him as attractive.  Other than advancing her plot line but it could have been done without the ham-fisted brother of Wendy narrative.  To pat.

*I am getting bored with Agent Miller.

 

 

Edited June 21, 2020 by Sunnykm
spelling

[AG921]

Lots of interesting discussion about Ben and mental illness. My uncle once burned his house down when he was off his bipolar meds and that wasnt even the most unbelievable thing he has done. I don't think anything Ben did was out of the scope of his diagnosis at all.

I was absolutely so sad that Wendy gave him up in the end. Honestly, I expected him to actually "run into traffic" or whatever Wendy said and then she would still feel responsible without giving up on him. I really enjoyed all the scenes of Ben and Wendy together this season when they gave little glimpses into what Wendy was like before. Maybe it's because of the close relationship I have with my own brother. Although she does terrible things I still find myself rooting for Wendy to be and do better. I haven't totally given up on her like I had with Walter White by the end of breaking bad.

Also, if Ben took screen time away from Darlene then I'm happy for that! I do want Ruth to get a happily ever after though.

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, AG921 said:

Honestly, I expected him to actually "run into traffic" or whatever Wendy said and then she would still feel responsible without giving up on him.

I think that let's Wendy off the hook. That would have been OOC for the character who was calling the drug kingpin like they're total bros. 

Also, I'd argue that it was a point in the Byrde's favor overall.

[JennyMominFL]

On 4/2/2020 at 4:14 AM, Chas411 said:

Agreed. I wonder if he’ll get nominated for anything?

He already has a Daytime Emmy

[Anela]

They both broke my heart. Especially Laura Linney.  I was expecting this, with the monologue at the beginning, and I accidentally saw a spoiler about her killing her brother.  I still couldn’t believe that she left him there, to be killed, though.  I realized what was happening, as she slowly drove away, shaking.  

[SlovakPrincess]

The first scene with Ben in the cab was so so so good (although the cab driver must have been thinking "how long is this ride?!").  Sadly, it was all downhill from there.

Admittedly, I do not know that much about bipolar as a condition.  However, by the end of this episode, Ben was practically Lennie from Of Mice and Men, a man with the mind of a toddler.    It just made no sense to me that he kept running off and doing insanely stupid and childish things.  He wasn't an idiot the rest of the season.

Still.  The actor is a treasure.  I did feel some compassion for Wendy (before, y'know, the deciding to let her brother get murdered part).  The scenes where the siblings bonded (like when her Southern drawl started to come out) were touching.  

Edited May 17, 2022 by SlovakPrincess

[SlovakPrincess]

On 6/4/2020 at 4:31 PM, TVbitch said:

Instead of arranging a hit on her brother, Wendy could have arranged to poison him or kill him in his sleep or something, and then let the hitman dude disappear the body. But Wendy don't like to get her hands dirty, so she ditches him in the diner and lets his last few moments of life be abandonment, confusion, terror and pain as the hitman takes him out. But hey, she cried afterwards, so I feel super bad for her. 

Although this is also a good point ...  

Also, was Marty in on this plan, too??  He seemed to be.  They're both diabolical for setting Ben up to get killed like this.  And honestly, it is their fault they let him know so much about what was happening in the first place.  

As to whether Ben added much to the show -- I vote for yes.  Season 2 became a drag because almost every character was corrupt and just accepted all the rampant crime.  (Wilkes - Wilkes!  a character who would be dull and/or smug and annoying on any other show! - was a breath of fresh air sometimes, just because he was slightly more normal).  Ben was at least an outsider POV character through most of the season, questioning why his sister was involved in this mess and how far she'd gone.   I just think they took it way too far with him causing trouble for the Byrdes by the end of his story arc.    

Edited May 17, 2022 by SlovakPrincess

[paramitch]

This was an incredibly devastating episode. I felt like most of the developments were pretty telegraphed, but that didn't make it any less riveting. And all the awards, please, to Tom Pelphrey (Ben) and Laura Linney, who were spectacular here.

I know a lot of folks here are talking about how unnecessary or over the top Ben is this episode and season, but I disagree. I think there's something necessary and classically tragic about his involvement in this season, which so far has been all about these people blindly not separating family from 'business' (and being naive in thinking they can do so). Helen moving nearby and becoming almost friendly; the Byrd kids paralleling Helen's poor unaware daughter (and her inevitable realization); Ben moving in and realizing the nightmare Wendy, Marty and the kids take for granted every day. The entire season so far for me has been so hard to watch because we see the Byrds accepting more and more the price they're willing to pay (and the absolute unlivability and despair of their situation), not realizing they're the frog in the pot in the old adage, who isn't aware he's being cooked (the water just gradually gets warmer and warmer until it's too late). 

Then in comes Ben, and he's horrified by the boiling water, and by everyone's acceptance of this horrible situation. He becomes a Cassandra figure. He wants to save them. Already knocked off-balance by going off-meds, he's now wrestling with a horrible situation -- first, he wants them to recognize the truth of the evil they are living. Then, he wants to save them. Then he realizes he's damned everyone. And this is also a parallel to how the children have been changed by this lifestyle and how Helen's daughter's knowledge was also inevitable. Nobody can remain separate or clean from what they do forever.

So for me Ben was essential this season. He holds up a mirror to the Byrds, even to Ruth, and asks the questions any sane person would ask them -- but he is so far from being sane nobody will listen. Even though he's RIGHT.

I mean, the Byrds are friendly and polite to Helen, who was actively complicit in torturing Ben's girlfriend Ruth, in threatening her family, in kidnapping, imprisoning, and torturing Marty, and (in conjunction with Wendy) killing Ruth's dad, among a zillion other awful deeds. I mean, yes, he was slime and I cheered, but still, Ben doesn't know that. It makes total sense to me that he sits at that table with the Byrds this season and eats meals and increasingly finds himself sliding into incomprehension because how the hell are they living with themselves like this?

Poor Ben. Even if he wasn't mentally ill, he'd feel crazy at a certain point. For me it's been heartbreaking to watch. And enriches the story enormously -- and the journey of Marty and Wendy down into a hell of their own making.

Meanwhile, I know many people are saying this makes Wendy irredeemable to them, but for me, as someone who doesn't particularly care about her much this season (she's gotten too cold and has bought into enjoying the corruption they're part of in ways Marty isn't), the past two episodes really devastated me, because you can see the warm, good human inside of Wendy who loves her brother so much.

I don't hate her for what she did here. I don't know what her options were. I'm not saying I support her having Ben killed (I honestly thought she would do it herself, like drugging him or something), I'm just saying she was on a very wobbly tightrope and he kept shaking that tightrope at every single turn. I don't know what else she could have done here. While Ben lives, she and her family are under a constant potential death sentence (Helen does not forgive or forget), and Ben meanwhile here is refusing hospitalization and showing time after time that as long as he lives he will be a threat to them.

Do I think this makes Wendy a terrible person? Even more terrible? Of course. But it also broke my heart, and her sobbing at the roadside to Marty was heartbreaking for me. I loved that this is the reckoning that breaks her, and she really really breaks here -- she is asking Marty flat-out, What are we doing? What have we become? And those are exactly the questions she should've been asking herself a long time ago.

Meanwhile, more on Ben and his mental illness in my replies below.

On 3/28/2020 at 3:35 PM, tearsandhysteria said:

I am just stumped at the depiction of Ben being only bipolar. I've known plenty of diagnosed bipolar people and they have common sense even though they make some questionable decisions like everyone else. They made Ben seem like he had the sense of a gnat.

I have a severely bipolar sister and a severely schizophrenic brother, both of whom have been a huge struggle for our family to keep on their meds through the years. On their meds, they are wonderful, smart, caring, people who are able to function in the world. Off meds, they are prey to every irrationality, violence, paranoia, irrationality, toxicity, and addictive impulse possible. And in those scenarios they have also been almost robotic and cold as well, almost sociopathic (and occasionally, yes, scary).

It is heartbreaking. And it is exhausting.                                                                                                                                                      

So I can say with absolute certainty that Ben's depiction here is 100% believable and on track for certain people when they go off meds. When they are SUPER off meds -- and feeling trapped? Scared? Paranoid? Common sense is not the first aspect of a bipolar person's personality in that situation. It's a laughable phrase in Ben's scenario here. You're right -- he has the sense of a gnat. That's accurate and also devastating.

On 3/29/2020 at 5:28 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I did like how when the FBI called Marty being all smug about the receipts being up I was like 'uh oh' and then they cut to Marty with just a small smirk on his face. 

That was one of the few bright/funny moments in this episode (and oh man, I needed it).

On 3/30/2020 at 8:56 AM, teddysmom said:

And Tom Pelphrey.  I was dying. It shook me all day after seeing it. 

I saw a lot of comments that his bipolar was extreme but very realistic when people suffering from it are off meds and stressed out.  That's the whole point, they over react to nothing, have delusions, and convince themselves they are right and everyone else is wrong. 

It was heart breaking.  And Laura in the car after she left him, man that is one helluva Emmy reel. 

Yeah, I'm utterly befuddled at all the people who think Ben is over the top. First off, congrats, because it means even if you have someone with bipolar disorder in your life, you haven't seen the abyss they can truly fall into, because I've seen behavior like Ben's and worse, and they weren't even having to deal with the madness of organized crime!

So of course Ben isn't "rational." Especially not when confronted with a situation like this one, in which they must function under a powderkeg of corruption, murder, theft, and torture, and the realization that the family he loves is complicit in ALL of it. Right down to the kids. And the sister he adores. 

And that final few minutes here, of Wendy sobbing? Oh, man. I think this is it for Wendy. The death of the last human, soft part of her heart. 

It was interesting to hear Marty being so loving with her. This is the warmest and softest we've heard him be with her in a very long time. And it's so awful because it's because they both know what just happened and what it makes them.

On 3/30/2020 at 12:14 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I kind of call a little bs on the police chief not giving them leeway to get him to the private facility they already had set up. I get they were having the cop play hardball with the Byrds, but it's a big difference between not letting the kids off and having them do the community service than this. Let him spend the night in jail while Helen finagled to get him in the facility. 

I thought this was a nice touch, actually, because I thought it was clear that the chief is just DONE with Marty and Wendy, so he did what they needed, but not all the way, because fuck them both.

On 3/30/2020 at 6:28 PM, Lemons said:

At first I thought they were going to get the bipolar right and then it got stupid.  His sister would know that being in a hospital would not kill him.  It’s common to go into the hospital when the symptoms of the illness are too severe to handle.  It’s a relief for a lot of patients. And then they made Ben out to have the mind of a five year old.  Bipolar doesn’t affect someone’s IQ.  Wasted episode. 

To answer your points (two seriously mentally ill siblings, one bipolar, one schizophrenic):

1. She knows it but based on Ben's history, he evidently has escaped and/or attempted suicide with previous hospitalizations. Despite that, she did allow him to be hospitalized and hope for his recovery although she was affected by his reactions and unforgiveness.
2. Hospitalization is a relief only after they begin to level out on meds. And even then, it can take months. Ben was still in the imbalanced screaming violent mode and looking at it only as a betrayal. 
3. Many if not most severely ill mental patients who require hospitalization are not happy about being forced to go back in against their will. 
4. They didn't give Ben the mind of a five year-old. They had him react to situations in an unbalanced, emotional and much larger way. He becomes childlike not because he becomes stupid, but because his condition means his emotions rule him just as the emotions rule a small child or a toddler. And that's not even counting the paranoia, irrationality, mania, etc.

On 3/30/2020 at 7:44 PM, tearsandhysteria said:

I enjoyed the episode but the bipolar people I know even off their meds (because all of them aren't compliant) still wouldn't try to act a fool with the cartel repeatedly. That was just too out there for me as well.  I don't know why Ruth wouldn't have forced him to get back on the meds. She isn't the type to leave something to chance. Not going to lie, I was happy when Ben was gone. Still think he's hot as I did back when he was on Banshee. Yum. Lol

See my previous comments on mental illness and bipolar disorder. As others have commented, once someone with severe bipolar disorder goes off their meds and goes full-blown manic, all bets are off. I've seen people stop peeing in toilets out of paranoia, starting bonfires in the living room, trying to take the kids to Disney World at 3 a.m., taking the kids with them on drug dealing runs to crack houses (I only found out about this after the fact), a hundred other things. Once rationality goes out the window and mania and paranoia set in? Anything is possible. I found Ben to be believable and well-written.

On 4/1/2020 at 7:39 PM, luna1122 said:

Yeah, really. His performance was intuitive and committed and devastating. 

Ben was self sabotaging but he was also mentally ill. What's the excuse for all the actual human monsters on this show? Wendy, Marty, Helen, Darlene....They're like a pit of vipers. Ben was an innocent. We needed SOMEONE with some humanity. 

Thank you! Ben is the one moral voice in the show -- mentally ill or not -- looking at the horror story of his sister's life (and Ruth's) and going, "WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?"

On 4/1/2020 at 7:53 PM, showme said:

Being mentally ill does not give anyone excuse to be irresponsible either, if you are ill, you need to take your meds, period.

Oh, you sweet summer child. Yes, of course, absolutely, everyone should take their meds. Happy story. The end.

Now try to get the mentally ill person who's been on them for years (and hates them) to do this against their will. Because it's cyclical. They will be great for awhile, but then the meds will make them feel "muffled" and "numb" and "less alive" so they start sneakily going off meds (and it is incredible how good they are at pretending to take them, even seeming to swallow them in front of you, even after you check their mouths/throats -- and at lying about taking them).

So much so that by the time you realize they are truly off meds, they are already plummeting into mania or despair, often self-harming, and doing all sorts of incredibly destructive stuff.

I love my siblings, so I don't say any of this lightly. But it's a reality.

On 4/1/2020 at 8:50 PM, luna1122 said:

The evil people of Ozark are the ones who are intolerable to me: the remorseless murderers and criminals. A mentally ill man who makes bad decisions isn't the one who most inspires my contempt. 

Again, this, this, this.

On 4/11/2020 at 12:57 PM, Maysie said:

I actually liked having Ben around and I thought his presence actually helped the plot because it gave us some additional insight into the existing characters. Yes, we could have ended up in the same place without him, but I like knowing that Ruth can fall in love and that she can care about people beyond her clan. I think Ben's story is also going to impact Jonah next season. And I may be in the minority, but frankly Ben's presence did take away from the FBI agent/Helen's daughter/Helen/Wyatt & Darlene storylines a bit and I'm fine with that because I didn't want anymore of them.

I have known bipolar people but I haven't been around them enough to know if Ben's issue was portrayed realistically or not (though one of the bipolar people I know ended up killing himself, and Ben sure seemed to be self-destructive). There is one thing that does resonate for me, and that is when someone gets something in their head, mentally ill or mentally well, it can often be damned near impossible to get it out of their head. What makes sense to me may not make sense to you and vice versa, so the fact that Wendy couldn't "talk sense" into Ben, or the fact that he wouldn't stay on the ranch when common sense would say otherwise works for me because he was fixated on something.

Also, telling someone to "just take your meds" is so easy for me and most everyone else who doesn't have to take medication to function "normally". However, I've known a few people who take meds who quit taking them because (like Ben), they didn't like the way the medication made them feel, and like Ben, it had some significant consequences (suicide). 

All of this is perfectly said, and true to my own experience with mentally ill relatives. And it's exhausting and heartbreaking and 100% true, and for me Ben's deterioration was very, very well written and performed here. And Laura Linney's performance -- amazing. I have felt that exhaustion and frustration and fear and worry and deep anguish because I could not get through to a loved one who did not know how deeply ill they were (or how much they were hurting other people).

On 4/15/2020 at 12:54 PM, IvySpice said:

Ben beat that guy at the bar in Kansas City within an inch of his life.* Marty and Wendy did not seem the slightest bit surprised by that. Wendy told Ruth that he's "dangerous." So the show told us that beating people within an inch of their lives is pretty much unmedicated Ben's M.O. That being the case, Ben's not just "making bad choices." He is knowingly entering a state in which he could murder anyone around him at any time. 

So given his history of violence, Ben bears full moral responsibility for the injuries he did to people while in his manic phase. I don't have a lot of pity for adults who refuse help.

I wonder who on the writing staff has a bipolar person in their close family. It felt like someone had a story to tell.

I agree on all fronts here -- yeah, Ben is absolutely culpable for the hurt and violence he causes. He's not off the hook because he's sick.

So he's aware of how bad it can get, and that's what makes Ben's decision so upsetting and frustrating. BUT -- this is the tragedy when it comes to meds with certain mental illnesses. He was still on the meds, so he was like, "I can handle it. I will be in control. It will be different this time."

But then of course it wasn't. It never is.

On 6/21/2020 at 12:57 AM, Sunnykm said:

*My opinion of Ben and his mental illness was not bipolar but schizo-affective.  He had delusions; ruminating thoughts that took over his thinking; poor decision making. 

*Often families will call a loved one's diagnosis bipolar instead of schiz due to the stigma associated with schiz.  BTW  sexual dysfunction is not a common side effect of atypical anti-psychotics.  Restlessness and weight gain top the list.

*There are long-acting injectable meds for both bipolar and schz.  30-60-90 days of medication in one injection.  This helps with compliance.  Those with schizo-affective and schz will feel much better and normal on medication and then stop taking it because they feel normal and then decompensate.

I think Ben is pretty clearly depicted as bipolar, and I feel it was a pretty good presentation of how it can present for some people.

I have a deeply schizophrenic sibling and a deeply bipolar sibling, and there are similarities between the two when it comes to the meds as well as to the kind of euphoric delusional aspect when they go off meds. Both have sort of manic, grandiose aspects off meds, are deeply unstable as far as highs and lows, and with big, unpredictable rages and tantrums.

However, they are different. For instance, with my schizophrenic sibling, they also hear voices, they more profoundly lose touch with reality and begin living these fantastical ideas in their heads instead, and their paranoia presents a different way. We didn't see that with Ben -- to me it's clear his going off meds spiraled him (as he fell in love) into a manic episode (mania can frequently present as rage).

But that's just my take.

Edited September 5, 2022 by paramitch