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S08.E07: Fucker Shot Me

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Here's what I cannot understand. If Haqquani wanted peace, why were those rogue Taliban men near the helicopters and why did one of them shoot Max, kidnap him, and hold him as a prisoner? If they loved Haqqani so much they would not bother with Max because their leader wanted peace. 

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Poor Max. Carrie finally found him and then he got dragged away again. Ben, predictably, gets worse with every episode.

I'm not a fan of watching Carrie go off the deep end and take ridiculous risks, but at least she's doing it to try to save Max.

How was that trial even considered a trial if there was no evidence or testimony? When the new judge showed up, I was afraid the original one had been murdered so I was relieved when Saul said that they must have switched judges. With this show, I just assume someone has been kidnapped and/or murdered when things go sideways.

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I so want that dumb A president removed. Hopefully something happens to him soon so that he is no longer in office.  I can't believe they'd throw in a character like that unless they intend something to befall him.

Edited by Pike Ludwell
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15 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Here's what I cannot understand. If Haqquani wanted peace, why were those rogue Taliban men near the helicopters and why did one of them shoot Max, kidnap him, and hold him as a prisoner? If they loved Haqqani so much they would not bother with Max because their leader wanted peace. 

I think (pure speculation) they didn't get the memo at the time of the encounter.

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Eventually Carrie will save the day and become vindicated right?  Because right now she's suppose to turn herself in to the FBI.

 

Tasneem says she's for peace now.  She was pouting when it seemed like there was a big peace deal coming.

To prove how much she's for peace, she shows the judge the attempted assassination of Haqqani that she had ordered.

WTF?

She was smirking and taunting Saul and Carrie when they first encountered her but now she wants to back Saul.

Isn't she the one who picked up Jalal, who may be the one leading this insurrection?

Doesn't matter in this world a 2-bit Afghan general is calling all the shots after he gaslit the US president in like 2 minutes.

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Just me, or does Afghan President G'ulom talk just like Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars? 

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There better be a Case of Mistaken Identity twist by the end of the season to justify casting Sam Trammell as POTUS. He and Linus Roache look like twins separated  at birth.

The actor playing G’ulom is pretty awful.

Although entertaining this final season is nearly indistinguishable from a typical season of 24. I never thought that would happen. Shame.

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13 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

What happened to that woman who Carrie left in the car? I forgot her name but she was a widow. 

Samira Noori: she was the source of intel used against G'ulom, and very likely to re-enter the picture. Carrie left her in the car within the CIA compound after rescuing her from her Taliban brother-in-law. If he and his cohorts didn't head out of Kabul immediately, they may have gotten picked up and held in the stadium. In either case, Samira would feel free to return to her flat now, where she could provide temporary refuge to rogue Carrie. 

Question for another day: how did Yevgeny know that Samira was a loose end for G'ulom?  I suppose the same way he was able to have a piece of paper with her name placed on Carrie's desk: sources inside the Afghani Vice President's staff and the CIA station.

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18 hours ago, Pike Ludwell said:

I so want that dumb A president removed. Hopefully something happens to him soon so that he is no longer in office.  I can't believe they'd throw in a character like that unless they intend something to befall him.

Are we watching the same show? Do you not remember the massacre of season 4? Or the death of Quinn? Or any of the other points where the good guys lost? I would lay good money that the show continues its portrayal of what reality is like rather than tying things up neatly with a fairy tale ending.

Carrie dying as a rogue agent and Saul scratching out a star for her on the wall is not out of the question.

Edited by parandroid · Reason: because
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Kate Burton as President Warner's widow Doris: it seems unlikely she was brought on for a one-scene, two-line cameo. Unless she has a strong connection to the show or its producers, and wanted to appear.

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8 hours ago, parandroid said:

Are we watching the same show? Do you not remember the massacre of season 4? Or the death of Quinn? Or any of the other points where the good guys lost? I would lay good money that the show continues its portrayal of what reality is like rather than tying things up neatly with a fairy tale ending.

Carrie dying as a rogue agent and Saul scratching out a star for her on the wall is not out of the question.

You mis-read my post as predicting a fairy tale ending. The throwing in of such an extreme goofball for prez just cries out for something happening to him. It's like a writers' device of a singled-out, especially bad villain where audiences are screaming for something to happen to him.  In the ordinary course of the show something would happen this season. Being the final season, who knows what kind of goofball ending is in store.

I don't think Carrie has been a russian agent all along. (I've seen some predicting it's a "No Way Out" sort of deal). But maybe since her 6 months detention in Russia. I saw one sign of some weird "control" vibe from the Russian resonating with Carrie, at one particular point. Could be a sort of Manchurian Candidate thing going on, from the 6-month imprisonment in Russia from last season.

Edited by Pike Ludwell

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1 hour ago, Pallas said:

Kate Burton as President Warner's widow Doris: it seems unlikely she was brought on for a one-scene, two-line cameo. Unless she has a strong connection to the show or its producers, and wanted to appear.


‘wow, didn’t recognize her.

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2 hours ago, Pallas said:

Kate Burton as President Warner's widow Doris: it seems unlikely she was brought on for a one-scene, two-line cameo. Unless she has a strong connection to the show or its producers, and wanted to appear.

Still as bitchy as Ellis Grey.

 

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Some little things:

1. When the body of President Warner was being brought into the hangar at Dover AFB, mountains were visible in the background, but Delaware is probably the flattest state in the US.

2. When the new presidents were having their private meeting (no staff, really?), birds were chirping in the background, which was weird.  I guess the president could keep a pet bird in his office if he pleased, but, eh, not really seeing it.

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7 hours ago, Pike Ludwell said:

I don't think Carrie has been a rogue russian agent all along.

I didn't mean that Carrie is a traitor - working wittingly / unwittingly for the russians. Merely that her current status is that of a "rogue agent" - as Mike (not sure if I have the name right - the current Chief of Station) mentioned on the call with her. She could die with that status still in place.

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It's interesting how much this season is like real life.  Afghanistan just elected a new president and two men have declared that they are the new president.  America is working with the Taliban on a peace deal but the Afghan president problem is messing it up.  Rogue Taliban still out there killing.  Dumb ass American president.   

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Were they getting reading to cut Max's head off?

Really? Carrie sneaking up on a Taliban camp with a pistol with one clip. Yeah, that'll do it. 

I hope Yvgeny knows about the Curse of Carrie. 

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On 3/21/2020 at 10:02 PM, DakotaLavender said:

Here's what I cannot understand. If Haqquani wanted peace, why were those rogue Taliban men near the helicopters and why did one of them shoot Max, kidnap him, and hold him as a prisoner? If they loved Haqqani so much they would not bother with Max because their leader wanted peace. 

Haqqani wanted peace; his son did not. Letting Jalal live was clearly depicted as Haqqani's Tragic Flaw. My assumption has always been that Jalal and his band of never-peacers took down the copters. I might be wrong. but the plot sure seems to be heading that way. It should all become clear when Carrie somehow miraculously recovers the red "black" box.

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I think Jalal's men were preparing to make a hostage video. It's possible that Jalal wants to try to barter for his father's life -- even though he recently plotted to have Haqqani killed. A lot's happened since then. Haqqani spared Jalal; peace is no longer an issue; Jalal may even believe that his father ordered the helicopter downed. And it's one thing to allow his father to be killed instantly, as a free man, taking a risk he chose. Quite another to have the world watch him die as a prisoner in whatever spectacle G'ulom has in mind.

It's also possible that Tasneem has been in touch and suggested this.

Edited by Pallas
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On 3/21/2020 at 10:02 PM, DakotaLavender said:

Here's what I cannot understand. If Haqquani wanted peace, why were those rogue Taliban men near the helicopters and why did one of them shoot Max, kidnap him, and hold him as a prisoner? If they loved Haqqani so much they would not bother with Max because their leader wanted peace. 

My guess is there are rogue factions inside the Taliban, led by Haqqani's son, whom Haqqani has disavowed earlier. If I'm not mistaken, it seems also that the son was in collaboration with Tasneem in the failed assassination of his father.

I still can't get over the fact that Saul is now willing to go to bat for Haqqani when he was responsible for the attack on the US Embassy just because Haqqani flashed Saul a peace sign. I wonder how the US would have reacted if OBL raised his hands in the air and said "I give up, don't kill me, let's be friends again, I don't want to fight anymore."

Edited by slowpoked
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I had a huge problem with the scene of Air Force One landing at what was supposed to be Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland (or McQuire in Delaware...I forgot which one)...neither of these two bases would have mountains in the background since neither of these bases are anywhere NEAR mountains like the ones in this scene. In a show that shoots most of its shows on location for authenticity, this was unforgivable. 

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I thought sure Carrie was going to wander around and come across the black box in a market.

I should think it would've occurred to Carrie that Yevgeny might record her confession about that airstrike that killed the wedding party. He seemed to be trying to fish it out of her.

What are the Taliban holding Max for? Spite? Or were they intending to trade him for Haqqani? Max is not that important except to Carrie.

Why is Hayes so enthralled by G'ulom, besides their having a mutual scapegoat in Haqqani?

Carrie is so ridiculous to me. No drama is enough for her. She always finds a way to eff things up by turning her reaction volume up to 11 when perhaps 7 or 8 would suffice.

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What body? They’re pretending there’s a corpse for the optics?

Yeah, don't the American people know the late president got blowed up real good or was that information suppressed? If it's public knowledge then the casket must've been just for the ceremony of honoring a sitting president's death.

Edited by Joimiaroxeu

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On 3/22/2020 at 4:32 PM, preeya said:

I think (pure speculation) they didn't get the memo at the time of the encounter.

I think more likely they are Jalal’s peeps. However, Jalal’s question for Max about who shot down the plane surprised me. Does he really not know?

On 3/22/2020 at 5:03 PM, scrb said:

Eventually Carrie will save the day and become vindicated right?  Because right now she's suppose to turn herself in to the FBI.

 

Tasneem says she's for peace now.  She was pouting when it seemed like there was a big peace deal coming.

To prove how much she's for peace, she shows the judge the attempted assassination of Haqqani that she had ordered.

WTF?

She was smirking and taunting Saul and Carrie when they first encountered her but now she wants to back Saul.

Isn't she the one who picked up Jalal, who may be the one leading this insurrection?

Doesn't matter in this world a 2-bit Afghan general is calling all the shots after he gaslit the US president in like 2 minutes.

Tasneem always wanted peace but resented being left out of the process.

On 3/23/2020 at 9:12 AM, Pallas said:

Kate Burton as President Warner's widow Doris: it seems unlikely she was brought on for a one-scene, two-line cameo. Unless she has a strong connection to the show or its producers, and wanted to appear.

The only problem is that now I am confusing her previous plot lines from Scandal with Homeland! 🤣 I’m not even joking.

On 3/27/2020 at 12:33 AM, Ursula Parrott said:

What body? They’re pretending there’s a corpse for the optics?

I think it’s not super unusual to have a funeral with an empty casket if the body is irretrievable (e.g., drowning) since it’s more for the grieving folks anyway.

I do like that the new Prez called out David Wellington. Finally showing backbone.

I am kind of hoping Carrie sacrifices herself for Max or Saul. Just did a rewatch of S1E1 and she was kind of a jerk to them.

I like the idea of Hugh Dancy being on his wife’s show for the final few episodes.

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I am surprised they are portraying a Taliban leader in such a positive light. He was literally  martyring himself to save his followers, as well as (apparently) sincerely wanting peace

OK, I get why Carrie is sabotaging her career to prove her point (she has little to lose at this point), but why is Yevgeny doing so? And what he said about how the Russians are rebuilding their influence in Afghanistan is probably true. But Carrie shows her usual grace to those sticking their own necks out for her.

I see President Newbie is adopting the "La La La - Not listening!" approach to foreign policy

OK, while ISI are right that the USA is decidedly only a fair weather friend, Saul was right that chaos/civil war on their border is not good for Pakistan.

Is President Gullam really that naive to believe that executing Haqqani will make things more stable? And even for a show trial, that was pretty half assed. At least hear a few witnesses talk about how he had their husbands/brothers killed (etc) first before ordering his execution.

On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2020 at 6:54 PM, kicksave said:

neither of these two bases would have mountains in the background since neither of these bases are anywhere NEAR mountains like the ones in this scene.

Maybe they're the "mountains of Kansas" that appeared on Smallville?

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On 3/24/2020 at 9:44 PM, slowpoked said:

I still can't get over the fact that Saul is now willing to go to bat for Haqqani when he was responsible for the attack on the US Embassy just because Haqqani flashed Saul a peace sign. 

That's politics. Your enemy yesterday is your ally today, if it's benefits for you both. Or vice versa, if there is no common ground.

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10 hours ago, Roseanna said:

That's politics. Your enemy yesterday is your ally today, if it's benefits for you both. Or vice versa, if there is no common ground.

Exactly. The CIA funded both Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden at one point because they were seen as anti-Soviet. They probably came to regret that later.

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On 3/28/2020 at 5:59 AM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Yeah, don't the American people know the late president got blowed up real good or was that information suppressed? If it's public knowledge then the casket must've been just for the ceremony of honoring a sitting president's death.

On the basis of what the late president's widow said, the American public doesn't know that the truth. And it would have been difficult to explain that his body was bombed although it would have been equally difficult to explain that the body was left to the Talibani. Either way, the new president would be acccused.

However, so many people know that the secret is out sooner or later.    

On 3/23/2020 at 3:12 PM, Pallas said:

Kate Burton as President Warner's widow Doris: it seems unlikely she was brought on for a one-scene, two-line cameo. Unless she has a strong connection to the show or its producers, and wanted to appear.

Maybe it will she who tells the truth. She seems to dislike the new president (but who wouldn't?).

On 3/29/2020 at 5:59 PM, nara said:

I do like that the new Prez called out David Wellington. Finally showing backbone.

He showed backbone in the wrong place. He could won the prize of most easily manipulated person. 

Doesn't this man know anything about history? Afghanistan has been tried to conquer by the British, by the Soviets and the Americans.

And it's not enough to win the military victory. After that one must overcome the political and social problems. Otherwise there would be a new war, or at least anarchy.

 

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On 3/30/2020 at 12:34 AM, John Potts said:

OK, I get why Carrie is sabotaging her career to prove her point (she has little to lose at this point), but why is Yevgeny doing so? And what he said about how the Russians are rebuilding their influence in Afghanistan is probably true. 

It's true that Yevgeny seems to have a totally different character than in S7 when wanted bullheadedly to make as much calamnies againts the US as possible - even against the orders of his superiors but seemed to have personal vendetta for losing the Cold War?

Then he threatened Carrie that if she didn't confess, she wouldn't get her medicines.  And now he told that he saved Carrie from making suicide and  that she told him her secrets and wanted to stay with him whereas it was in the "hospital" she was denied her medicines. 

Maybe he isn't Yevgeny at all but Oleg from The Americans?

 

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On 5/2/2020 at 5:49 AM, Roseanna said:

It's true that Yevgeny seems to have a totally different character than in S7 when wanted bullheadedly to make as much calamnies againts the US as possible - even against the orders of his superiors but seemed to have personal vendetta for losing the Cold War?

Then he threatened Carrie that if she didn't confess, she wouldn't get her medicines.  And now he told that he saved Carrie from making suicide and  that she told him her secrets and wanted to stay with him whereas it was in the "hospital" she was denied her medicines. 

Maybe he isn't Yevgeny at all but Oleg from The Americans?

I posted more on this in the last episode topic, but I think Yevgeny is a genuinely interesting paradox who also echoes Carrie, to a degree, this season.

From S7, we've seen that he is willing to be ruthless, but I would also point out that in every case, he was ruthless (lethal) with people who had already flipped and/or were willing to sell him out right then and there. It's not a particularly nice quality, but it makes sense to me. And even with Dante, I believed him that he wouldn't have killed Dante (wanting to save the asset relationship) until Dante blew the whistle over the phone.

Meanwhile, we also had the counterpoint in S7 that Yev was willing to risk everything for Simone, saved her multiple times at risk to himself (and little benefit, as killing her would have been the smarter option if he was cold enough). Until the penultimate episode, when it's definitely arguable that he was willing to kill her (it sure looked like it).

So then we get to the final episode, his fury at Carrie, but also his genuine respect for her. Sure, he's cruel to her -- he's trying to get her to do what he wants, and that's going to include plenty of persuasion and even psychological torture.

But here's where I think it gets interesting, and brings us to a different S8 Yevgeny -- and relationship with Carrie. 

Vulnerability can work both ways. I think he ended up genuinely caring for her. And of course, it's obvious that to some degree she spent months desperately holding onto him as someone she knew (enemy or not) as her sanity fell to pieces. The flashbacks of Carrie weeping and begging him not to leave her are, to me, deeply sad. He might have been a captor and villain, but she recognized him and at some point it appears she forgot that he was the person responsible for hurting her.

Anyway. So I think it was easy for Yevgeny to threaten Carrie, to play cat and mouse with her in the asylum. Until she began to truly lose her mind. I think it was one thing for him to threaten her with this, but entirely another for him to see it happen. Carrie was a respected adversary, and for him to see just how far down the rabbit hole she would fall -- a side effect of that is that she would have been 100% vulnerable, emotionally, psychologically, physically, etc. And I think that would have been far more difficult for Yevgeny, based on the character we've seen, than a strong, cold Carrie soldiering on through 7 months sanely would have been. I think he could have laughed safely distanced at Carrie trying to seduce guards, scoff at persuasion/torture, or try to escape -- but seeing her emptied, raw, scared, and with zero ability to protect herself -- it's a different situation and much less fun for a "spycraft spy." 

Just my take. It's why I don't see S8 as any kind of contradiction -- rather, an evolution and aftermath of a situation that probably surprised him (even while poor Carrie is slightly clueless thanks to her faulty memory, but it's obvious she feels an intimacy with him she doesn't understand).

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