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S01.E06: The Impossible Box


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On 2/28/2020 at 3:32 AM, SourK said:

 

Also, Picard has been on Borg ships lots of times since he was assimilated and he dealt with it. If anything, he should be freaking out because it reminds him of Data getting killed, but that's not the plot line they want to explore right now. I also still wish I got to hear what Seven of Nine thinks of this cube.

No he hasn’t. He’s been on an enterprise that was becoming borgified in First Contact and he was going full captain Ahab during the process and that’s it. 

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On 2/28/2020 at 3:32 AM, SourK said:

If anything, he should be freaking out because it reminds him of Data getting killed, but that's not the plot line they want to explore right now.

The Borg were not involved with Data dying. The Queen modified Data but he died saving Picard from Shinzon & The Remans in Nemesis.

Edited by paigow
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4 hours ago, KungFuBunny said:

In fact, this dream sequence Soji is having could just be a fictitious memory. Soji might never have even existed as a child. I would hope as a brilliant scientist - Maddox input 1000's of fail safes into their systems

We know it is a fictitious memory. Soji is only three years old and I believe has spent most of that time on the Borg cube. None of the childhood mementos she scanned were older than 37 months, including the stuffed toy she was clutching in the dream. She was never a little girl. The dream was her subconscious attempting to reconcile her false memories with her true nature.

Edited by Llywela
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On 2/28/2020 at 2:59 AM, lora said:

8. Am I the only one who feels really sad when I listen to the introduction theme. It is very beautiful but it is also sad.

OMG yes! I've listened to it enough now that is doesn't have the same power over me that it did at the start, but it LITERALLY made me cry the first several times I listened to it. So beautiful and sad.

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13 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

It seems the ex-Borgs may have their own parallel society within the cube, doing the menial tasks but observing what really goes on; they go just about everywhere and most of them would seem to pose any danger because they appear to still be damaged and diminished. Hugh knew about Narek; he called him a "dashing young Tal Shiar agent".

His scenes with Picard were the highlight of the episode, even though I have trouble recognising the actor from his very young version in the original TNG appearances.

I would be down for an ongoing sub-quest with Hugh and Elnor teaming up.

I like this idea. Hugh certainly referred to this when he mentioned they were still slaves, just to a different Queen. I hope that they rise up and deal with the Romulans. Elnor can help them so we can have more Hugh/Elnor team ups.

Loved seeing Hugh and Picard again so much. I, Borg is one of my faves and I'm thrilled to see Hugh again. Don't kill him, show!

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Same here. I guess the writers wanted to emphasize the parallels between Borgs and  insect societies on Earth but since they are a true collective mind, why would they need a mind to be at the center, one who has kept her individuality? And why a female; it's not like she performs reproductive duties like in a beehive or ant colony for example. Calling her "queen" seems to negate the basic premises of the Borg as first introduced. Same thing when Picard was assimilated and received a name instead of a numerical designation.

If you think about it, kidnapping Picard to be the face of the Borg is a similar concept. In every way, it's about interfacing with societies outside of their own. Now I'm trying to remember, the Queen concept originated with First Contact? Because Voyager sure used the hell out of it.

On 2/27/2020 at 9:24 PM, dwmarch said:

Was it urgent to get to Soji or not? They did make a couple of stops along the way and then once they get there, Hugh takes Picard on a tour through the Borg Reclamation Project and asks if he'll sponsor it!

 

On 2/28/2020 at 5:30 AM, MissLucas said:

As much as I enjoyed the meeting between Hugh and Picard it was jarring to see Hugh give Picard a tour of the cube. Obviously Picard could not just blurt out the nature of his mission within the first minute but I really missed some sense of urgency in those scenes.

Hugh wasn’t just tour guiding. As soon as Picard said Soji’s name he recognized who Picard was looking for, and took him down to the area where Soji works. While there, they saw a lot of things Picard found fascinating and Hugh briefly explained them, but they kept moving. Once they’d been through all the likely labs and not found her, Hugh checked the records and discovered she’d called in sick. 

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(edited)

I’ve started timing each ep to mark when something new and meaningful finally happens. In this ep, it took almost exactly 30 minutes, if you count when Soji realizes she isn’t human. Unfortunately, this is employing one of my least favorite narrative devices.... when a character realizes something that the viewers already know. It’s not interesting, and for the viewer, nothing new actually happens.

So the timer resumes. Picard has flashbacks. Not new. He meets Hugh. I suppose this is a development, though earlier in this same ep Picard sees Hugh in his onscreen research. So maybe?

Then Picard is amazed that on a Borg reclamation project, Borg are being... reclaimed. He seems surprised. I am not. We are now at 38 minutes.

Then Raffi and beardy have a talk and ask the very question we as viewers know about. What does the Tal Shiar want with Soji? But they don’t speculate. And we see sneaky Romulan beardy take her to a chamber. 41 minutes in, 13 left. 

Dreams blah blah, walk on the path blah blah, the unfolding, blah blah. While we see scenes we have already seen. Why all the suspense? She is remembering something. So?

Oh, and now Picard tells Hugh that Soji is close to discovering who she is. Good thing we already know! And now Soji sees that she was assembled. Did we know that? Why, yes we did. 46 minutes in, 8 left.

So Soji is ... irradiated? Ok, something happened! 6 minutes left. She’s been activated! And she and JL escape! 

So 48 minutes of nothing new, 6 of new.  It’s tough to watch this show.

Also, Hugh is the only one who can OK a visit by Picard and the only one who knows he is there? I know he is director, but seems unlikely. Hugh would have approved any visit by JL, anyway, so not sure what the difficulty was with the admiral person getting a permit. 

 

Edited by Ottis
5 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Hugh is the only one who can OK a visit by Picard and the only one who knows he is there? I know he is director, but seems unlikely. Hugh would have approved any visit by JL, anyway, so not sure what the difficulty was with the admiral person getting a permit. 

 

Hugh is the official face of the project but he's not pulling the strings that's the Romulans and that's why Picard needed diplomatic status from Starfleet. Narek's presence on the cube despite Hugh's misgiving makes it quite clear. Also when Narek asks Soji to witness a procedure she tells him that he needs approval from Hugh and he responds 'Actually, I don't'. 

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On 2/27/2020 at 2:34 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Awwww, Elnor! My cold dead heart loves his loyalty for Picard.

When they first reconnected, he was madder than mad at Picard.  It's nice to see that the trust is building up again.

On 2/28/2020 at 8:20 AM, marinw said:

I was also impressed by that scene where Picard was doing research in his office and his head matches the image of Locutus on the screen, and it's like he's trying to get all the implants off him in the present. That was chilling.

I don't know if that was part of the script or director's input, but that was a fantastic shot.

On 2/28/2020 at 7:30 AM, MissLucas said:

Poor Soji, I really expected her to scan herself with the age-detector gizmo. 😞

We kept yelling at the TV: Scan something whose age you are sure of!

On 2/28/2020 at 2:59 AM, lora said:

What? No Rios Holograms today?

8. Am I the only one who feels really sad when I listen to the introduction theme. It is very beautiful but it is also sad.

Well, we MIGHT have had the Emergency Intercourse hologram alluded to by another poster. 😂

Apparently the theme song incorporates Picard's flute from The Inner Light episode.  Very fitting.

Edited by aemom
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39 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Hugh is the official face of the project but he's not pulling the strings that's the Romulans and that's why Picard needed diplomatic status from Starfleet. Narek's presence on the cube despite Hugh's misgiving makes it quite clear. Also when Narek asks Soji to witness a procedure she tells him that he needs approval from Hugh and he responds 'Actually, I don't'. 

So Hugh is unimportant when it comes to getting diplomatic clearance, but is also able to send Picard coordinates to beam down, have him beam into a specific area and give him a tour of the reclamation center? The Romulans who required official diplomatic clearance didn’t notice this while they were awaiting his arrival? Taken together, it either doesn’t make sense or is unnecessarily convoluted. 

1 minute ago, Ottis said:

So Hugh is unimportant when it comes to getting diplomatic clearance, but is also able to send Picard coordinates to beam down, have him beam into a specific area and give him a tour of the reclamation center? The Romulans who required official diplomatic clearance didn’t notice this while they were awaiting his arrival? Taken together, it either doesn’t make sense or is unnecessarily convoluted. 

Apparently you weren’t paying attention. The romulans provided the beam in coordinates, not Hugh. The romulans knew he was on board. The crew asked the romulans to notify the director that Picard wanted to meet with him. The entire point of the mission was to be open about their arrivals and initial meeting person. 

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2 hours ago, Ottis said:

So 48 minutes of nothing new, 6 of new.  It’s tough to watch this show.

Yes, exactly what Mr. Chat and I say.  It's moving at turtle speed.  

My other gripe is watching these people smoke & vape.  Is that really necessary?  We fast forward to the future where most of the dread diseases of our time are eradicated, but yet they can't find a way to stem/cure unhealthy addictions?  C'mon now, show.  

16 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I was just surprised that Soji had so many physical photographs in her room.

Shouldn't everything be digital -- especially for people travelling through space with limitations on what they can bring with them.

Most people aren't newly activated synths whose creators have carefully crafted a lifetime's worth of possessions for them to reinforce a fabricated life history. Soji had all that stuff - including drawings from her childhood - to help her believe she was a (sentimental, apparently) human being with a whole lifetime behind her. Most people would not have brought all that with them, no!

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As for the pacing of this episode. I wasn't waiting for something 'new' but how several expected events would unfold: Will the EMH spill the beans about Maddox or will it prove Rios right? Will Rios and Agnes exchange more meaningful looks? Will Narek show signs of internal conflict? Will Rizzo lose patience and take matters into her own hands? What happens when Soji activates? (Less bloody than Dahj but rampaging through the cube's internal structure was not something I had expected. I do wonder however if her activation won't trigger the dormant cube in the long run.) How long will it take for Elnor to appear on the cube and how badass will his arrival be? Will Hugh survive the episode?

Got answers to most of these.

On a sidenote: I was really surprised when Hugh mentioned that Narek had arrived only two weeks ago. Considering the intimate relationship he had built with Soji in that time I had assumed it had been longer (I also did not pay enough attention in the pilot). Dude has some impressive game.

 

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48 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

As for the pacing of this episode. I wasn't waiting for something 'new' but how several expected events would unfold: Will the EMH spill the beans about Maddox or will it prove Rios right? Will Rios and Agnes exchange more meaningful looks? Will Narek show signs of internal conflict? Will Rizzo lose patience and take matters into her own hands? What happens when Soji activates? (Less bloody than Dahj but rampaging through the cube's internal structure was not something I had expected. I do wonder however if her activation won't trigger the dormant cube in the long run.) How long will it take for Elnor to appear on the cube and how badass will his arrival be? Will Hugh survive the episode?

Got answers to most of these.

Yup. Storytelling isn't about adding something new all the time, especially serialised storytelling of this nature. Serialised storytelling is about ongoing development, both of the plot and the characters - which this episode achieved in spades. Everything moved forward. The characters all made choices, both good and bad, and we saw various dynamics within the core cast achieve new developments - that's forward movement. Two separate plot strands came together, moving several character stories forward in the process, and most of the characters ended the episode in a different place than they started it, both physically and emotionally. That's also forward progress. It's what each episode in a serialised story is supposed to do. This kind of storytelling is not supposed to give up a bunch of new secrets in each episode. It is designed to be incremental.

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2 minutes ago, Llywela said:

This kind of storytelling is not supposed to give up a bunch of new secrets in each episode. It is designed to be incremental.

While I can appreciate that aspect, let me sum up how I feel about the pace of the show.  In the words of Miranda Priestly from The Devil Wears Prada:  "By all means, move at a glacial pace."  😉    

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6 hours ago, ChitChat said:

In the words of Miranda Priestly from The Devil Wears Prada:  "By all means, move at a glacial pace."  😉

Honestly, it's as dull as ditchwater.

It's episode six and they are still assembling their 'team'.  Next week: Riker.  Then there will only be three episodes left in the series, and as far as I can tell, they don't actually have a plan yet, to do anything.

The whole season is like nothing more than a setup for next season. Which, frankly, I won't be watching, unless there are radical improvements soon!

(edited)
7 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Honestly, it's as dull as ditchwater.

It's episode six and they are still assembling their 'team'.  Next week: Riker.  Then there will only be three episodes left in the series, and as far as I can tell, they don't actually have a plan yet, to do anything.

The whole season is like nothing more than a setup for next season. Which, frankly, I won't be watching, unless there are radical improvements soon!

What do you mean, no plan? Picard's plan, from the start, was to locate and rescue Soji before the Zhat Vash could destroy her the way they did Dahj. Which he has now achieved. Mission accomplished. We are now into the aftermath - the escape, the regrouping, the figuring out what comes next, and the search for answers.

Did you think the main plot couldn't get underway until the entire main cast is assembled on one ship? That's not what this show is about, it isn't that kind of story. Show is slow moving, yes, but the basic plot has been moving forward since episode one - I guess were so busy waiting for the show to start telling the story you thought it was going to tell that you failed to notice the story it actually has been telling all along.

Edited by Llywela
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5 hours ago, Llywela said:

Picard's plan, from the start, was to locate and rescue Soji before the Zhat Vash could destroy her the way they did Dahj.

That was the plan?  Go pick up a stray?
 

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

I guess were so busy waiting for the show to start telling the story you thought it was going to tell that you failed to notice the story it actually has been telling all along.

I guess the story was so boring I keep falling asleep sometimes 3-4 times per episode, and as a result missed the story it was telling.

Pity.  But Yawnsville doesn't make for great television.  Least ways not for me.

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Great episode.  It took a little while for this show to get going but it has really picked up steam the last few weeks and this was the best episode yet.

The highlight of the episode was definitely the PIcard and Hugh reunion.  It was excellent and Jonathan Del Arco gave a strong performance.  I sincerely hope Hugh makes it out of this season alive.  On a sidenote, I was recently watching The Sopranos and Del Arco pops up in an episode where he plays a priest trying to get money from Paulie for a festival.

Stewart also gave a strong performance and always has done a great job handling the trauma of The Borg.  It's not a surprise it still affects Picard deeply.  Seeing how the Project was helping ex-Borg was a really effective scene.

I can see Hugh staying behind, he's not going to want to leave behind the ex-Borg.  Elnor staying, yeah, you have to hand wave there.

I thought the music score was a real standout in this episode.  Very well done.

Raffi still gets on my nerves at times but really liking her friendship with Rios.  Even the Romulan Lannisters come across as more effective here and the development in the plot here is exciting.  Looking forward to more.

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(edited)
3 hours ago, paigow said:

Narek has all the cheat codes for the Impossible Cube? He solved it, replaced the dancing figure [Freudian Big Sis???] with the death crystal, solved it again in the meditation room and perfectly calculated the time delay to avoid getting trapped...

Well, it's his toy and he's had it since he was a kid - the Romulan version of a Rubik's cube, and there are kids out there who can solve those in a matter of seconds, so...I don't see the issue. He never said it was complicated to get it open, just that it requires patience and understanding, which his sister never bothered to apply to hers. He also said that he uses it to help him think - I don't find it either improbable or surprising that he'd know it inside out.

Edited by Llywela
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18 hours ago, Llywela said:

Show is slow moving, yes, but the basic plot has been moving forward since episode one - I guess were so busy waiting for the show to start telling the story you thought it was going to tell that you failed to notice the story it actually has been telling all along.

Speaking for myself, I've paid attention and understand the story, but I still think that at times it moves at a snail's pace!  I have found Mr. Chat nodding off several times, which is unusual for him.  Being the Star Trek fans that we are though, we will plod along and maybe drink some caffeine before watching the show.  😉 

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(edited)

That Hugh/Picard reunion was amazing, it just smacked me right in the gut. Oh Hugh, you've come so far! Their big warm hug was definitely the highlight of what was already a really good episode, and in general all of the Hugh and Picard stuff, and Picard dealing with his past Borg related trauma was all very effecting. Loved seeing those creepy Borg flashbacks when he got on the Borg cube, and the visual of Picard looking at the picture of himself as Locutus and the picture reflecting onto Picard was a really great shot. Also, thanks for bringing that up in the most tactful way possible, Agnes! Just the best memories ever for Picard! 

Elnor really is the cutest bad guy slashing, truth telling, space elf in the whole universe. His loyalty to Picard is so adorable, especially considering how pissed he was at him when Picard came back to find him. Their back and fourth when Elnor insisted Picard and Soji left was really lovely. Come on bad guys, stop making Elnor kill you! The contrast between his sweet naïvete and how deadly he is is really interesting, and that also makes him a fun foil for the rest of the characters. "Was I in-butting?" It will be really interesting seeing him interact with the more "traditional" Romulans. 

Hugh and Elnor better be ok! Get away creepy big sister!

Rios might be doing the whole Han Solo "rebellious spaceship pilot" thing, but he really seems to be a very empathetic and caring person. He was really great taking care of Raffi when she was drunk and depressed, being supportive and understanding, picking up quickly on Agnes needing something to distract from whatever is upsetting her (which is a much bigger thing than what he probably thinks) and last week being the one to reach Seven and stop her from gunning down the gangster women right there with everyone else around. He is also falling quickly into a captain/XO relationship with Picard quite easily, being around actual non hologram people seems to be doing wonders for him. 

Of course, things will certainly get complicated when what Agnes did and what she was really so jittery about comes out. So was she really just looking to work out some energy with Rios, or was sleeping with him part of some greater plan? Its hard to tell exactly what is going on with her. 

Narek might have set Soji up to die, but it seems he did catch some actual feelings for her, so much that I wonder if he wanted her to escape, even if it was just a little bit, and thats why he killed her in such a slow moving death trap kind of way instead of just stabbing her or something. Those tears he shed when he left her with the poison were certainly very real. 

The way Picards voice wavered just a bit as he begged Soji to come with him and to trust him just killed me, Patrick Stewart has still seriously got it. Of course I had no doubts, but he really hit that note of panic and desperation, being so close to saving the last remainder of Data. This episode was probably the one where I most related to Soji and really got into her journey, as she started realizing that everything she owned only seemed to have existed for a few years. Yeah, I kept waiting for her to scan herself, what a horrible and scary revelation. 

Edited by tennisgurl
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How do Narek and Sister Killjoy know that Soji's "memory" of the two moons or whatever the dream told her is reliable? Poor Soji's cybernautistic head is filled to bursting with false or modified memories, but this one essential plot point is real? My, that's convenient.  

Hugh's reunion with Picard is so far the emotional high point of the show, though Elnor continues to be both endearing and scary.

Raffi's self-destruction looks like wallowing to me -- I want her to smarten up.

"... red cloud of unspecified doom" is a thing of beauty. Well done.

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On 3/2/2020 at 11:55 AM, marinw said:

Picard's Borg trama is the gift that keeps on giving. I think this will be the last timne TPTB can go back to that particular well.

With regards to Picard's scene upon entering the Borg Cube:
While I understand that Sir Patrick Stewart relishes opportunities to  'Act' (with a capital A) ... the unfortunate result is that he has thoroughly convinced me that Picard is a frail, frightened old man.

And we already saw Picard's Borg PTSD in the TNG movie - and there he managed to suck it up and get stuff done. And that was 20+ years before. Haven't there been any advancements in treating PTSD? 

Edited by shrewd.buddha
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On 3/1/2020 at 9:22 AM, Llywela said:

Most people aren't newly activated synths whose creators have carefully crafted a lifetime's worth of possessions for them to reinforce a fabricated life history. Soji had all that stuff - including drawings from her childhood - to help her believe she was a (sentimental, apparently) human being with a whole lifetime behind her. Most people would not have brought all that with them, no!

But this is the 24th Century, nearly the 25th. In most other contexts in this time frame, actual paper photographs seem the exception. In an era where there are padds, holograms and holopics (see, for example, the Tasha Yar holo that Data had), why would anyone keep non-digital pictures. especially when they can be scanned and give up the ghost that she's just over 3 years old?

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1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But this is the 24th Century, nearly the 25th. In most other contexts in this time frame, actual paper photographs seem the exception. In an era where there are padds, holograms and holopics (see, for example, the Tasha Yar holo that Data had), why would anyone keep non-digital pictures. especially when they can be scanned and give up the ghost that she's just over 3 years old?

Maddox clearly felt that the benefit of giving Soji physical evidence of her fake history outweighed the possibility that someone might someday decide to run a quantum scan to find out how old those items truly were - giving her those items was supposed to reinforce her sense of self so that she would never question her identity. He didn't foresee the sequence of events that led to her scanning all her belongings, because he was a clever man but not omnipotent.

We also saw photographs in the Troi-Riker household, and Rios had one as well, so they aren't obsolete. It makes sense that they wouldn't be, in the same way that it always made sense to me that Picard would have paper books in his quarters on TNG despite no doubt every book ever written being available electronically. Sometimes it is better to have something tangible that you can hold. (Personally, I like to print pictures off despite also archiving them digitally, because data files get corrupted and become obsolete, and because I like having pictures right there on my wall and in albums, easy to see at a glance; I almost never bother to go back through old electronic folders to browse my photos digitally).

So it doesn't seem out of keeping to me that Soji would have those possessions. I mean, her constructed identity is of a very young woman who has just left home to take a job in a whole other quadrant of space at a high risk facility run by an alien government that isn't even really an ally - it fits her assumed identity that she wants to cling to a little piece of home.

Edited by Llywela
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(edited)
On 3/1/2020 at 10:22 AM, Llywela said:

Most people aren't newly activated synths whose creators have carefully crafted a lifetime's worth of possessions for them to reinforce a fabricated life history. Soji had all that stuff - including drawings from her childhood - to help her believe she was a (sentimental, apparently) human being with a whole lifetime behind her. Most people would not have brought all that with them, no!

what with replicators you could fashion frames and photos to decorate your room, wherever you were. I'm sure stuffed rabbits would be carried in luggage for sentimental reasons, but a lot of stuff could be carried digitally and reproduced perfectly as needed.  So the 'originals' wouldn't have to be old and maybe the dating on replicator programs can be rewritten or fudged. 

Edited by Affogato
2 hours ago, Affogato said:

what with replicators you could fashion frames and photos to decorate your room, wherever you were. I'm sure stuffed rabbits would be carried in luggage for sentimental reasons, but a lot of stuff could be carried digitally and reproduced perfectly as needed.  So the 'originals' wouldn't have to be old and maybe the dating on replicator programs can be rewritten or fudged. 

Soji clearly believed that she had carried all those items with her, physically, when she travelled to the Artifact. To her, they were genuine, mementos of her childhood that she had treasured for years. Her belief in them as her original childhood possessions, carried with her across space to remind her of home, was the whole point of their existence.

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33 minutes ago, Llywela said:

Soji clearly believed that she had carried all those items with her, physically, when she travelled to the Artifact. To her, they were genuine, mementos of her childhood that she had treasured for years. Her belief in them as her original childhood possessions, carried with her across space to remind her of home, was the whole point of their existence.

so I was agreeing with you. Most people wouldn't have brought that stuff with them, or just one or two pieces of it. Maybe the pictures were used to reinforce the memories and she got close to them? 

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