S04.E12: Patty

[Ailianna]

8 hours ago, companionenvy said:

That's precisely the problem, at least in part. Given the powers we've seen Janet exhibit, there's no reason the GP architects couldn't have at least attempted to provide some more substantial pleasures. For instance, give Hypatia a chance to read Newton and Einstein and start working on problems that weren't yet conceived of during her lifetime. That might very well wear thin too - but it is a fault of the episode that this wasn't addressed. Even if the committee was too inhuman to think of it, our guys should have.

They were keeping up with things on earth, as Patty reminded them of various things she knew about, so if she had been interested in Newton or Einstein, their thinking was available to her.  But she apparently wasn't interested enough, or mentally able, to work on those things.

[jacehan]

On 1/24/2020 at 12:23 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:There should be at least a dozen children for every adult in The Good Place.  How many children, especially in the distant past, could have earned negative points?  Especially infants and toddlers.

 Hate to break it to you all, but there'd be no children in The Good Place. You don’t just need to have a positive point value to get in; you need a relatively high value. Remember Doug Forcett? He had a high positive value in the millions, but it still wasn’t high enough. There’s no way any children earned enough points to qualify.

[tennisgurl]

I mean, this can’t be the only answer to fixing the GP, it just seems too simple. I feel like there has to be some other twist here, or something else that will make the GP a real GP and not Cosmic Coachella. I also wonder if The Door is really a door to nothing, or if it’s to some plain of existence that is so beautiful that it’s impossible to explain on a human scale. It’s not just “Earth, but nicer where everything is super convenient” but an actual paradise. 

[Wanda]

I choose to believe there’s a special Disney world where children under 14 go. Neither good nor bad place unless there were extenuating circumstances like one murdered her mother so she could sleep with the boyfriend and star on a reality show kind of bad seed type.

[theatremouse]

15 hours ago, Prower said:

The crew lived through thousands of versions of Micheals torture good place, for tens of thousands of years, yet when they went back to earth, no time had passed there (or it had come back around).

I thought they went through approximately 800 reboots and the longest one was basically a year? And many were much shorter. So it was 800 years at most, not tens of thousands, but probably way shorter. There were more time jumps since then, but I thought it was implied less than the original torture reboot time. 

The "currentness" at the party was because it was the 4's ideal party combined, but when Patty said they keep current, there totally could've been more-future-than-the-crew's-current current stuff she was also aware of; it just wasn't necessary for the plot.

I love that the Good Place is the Getty.

The show also seems to be suggesting that whatever is torture is good and whatever is supposedly good is torture. Between Michael's Sisyphus analogy an ep or two ago, and the outcome of the original experiment (4 people designed to torture each other end up bffs), and Eleanor's brilliant ideas...the gist seems to be that it's all backwards.

[Guest]

On 1/26/2020 at 7:28 PM, theatremouse said:

I thought they went through approximately 800 reboots and the longest one was basically a year? And many were much shorter. So it was 800 years at most, not tens of thousands, but probably way shorter. There were more time jumps since then, but I thought it was implied less than the original torture reboot time. 

Yeah. It was 802 reboots with the longest being 11 months and the shortest just a few seconds. Mike Schur has said that the average reboot length was around 4 months for a total of 250-300 years. 

 

On 1/26/2020 at 7:28 PM, theatremouse said:

The show also seems to be suggesting that whatever is torture is good and whatever is supposedly good is torture. Between Michael's Sisyphus analogy an ep or two ago, and the outcome of the original experiment (4 people designed to torture each other end up bffs), and Eleanor's brilliant ideas...the gist seems to be that it's all backwards.

My interpretation is different. I feel like they are saying that extremes are bad. The Bad Place (all torture) and The Good Place (all pleasure) we’re both bad because there was no balance. While Michael’s experiment was good because it contained both good and bad aspects. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Guest

[bros402]

15 hours ago, jacehan said:

 Hate to break it to you all, but there'd be no children in The Good Place. You don’t just need to have a positive point value to get in; you need a relatively high value. Remember Doug Forcett? He had a high positive value in the millions, but it still wasn’t high enough. There’s no way any children earned enough points to qualify.

Doug Forcett had something in the range of 600k, which the Accountant said was good for someone in their 20s. So for easy math, let's just say average human lifespan is 80 - he'd need 1.8 million points to get into the Good Place (I believe that is around what Tahani's points were in the neighborhood)

[Mrs.Monkey]

On 1/24/2020 at 9:06 AM, Helena Dax said:

I remember having read that the human mind can't really grasp the concept of eternity. In any case, I simply think that humans aren't made for eternity. Unless there's some spiritual evolution and we become something else, something inhuman, eternity is bound to become torture. So the twist about Patty and the others sounds very logical to me. 

Otoh, who knows what's really on the other side of the door? I mean, if there's something like a God in the show's universe, crossing that door could actually lead to another level of existence that goes beyond humanity. However, I don't think the characters have ever mentioned the existence of a God.

I loved the episode and it was a joy to see Lisa Kudrow as Patty. Chidi's reaction to her was one of the best things in the world. And ffs, one of Tahani's godparents is the Big Ben!!!!

I agree with this. I was raised strict Catholic and remember even as a little girl, the idea of going to heaven FOREVER was really disturbing. I couldn't imagine doing anything (Mom said we'd be worshiping God) for eternity. I'm not a patient person and I always want to know what comes next. My mother explained that in heaven there is no concept of time, so it doesn't feel like eternity.

However, my idea of heaven was that I'd get to talk to all the people I've ever wanted to and learn all the answers to all of the questions I've ever had. So Chidi meeting Patty was perfect.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Mrs.Monkey

[SoMuchTV]

18 hours ago, Dani said:

Yeah. It was 802 reboots with the longest being 11 months and the shortest just a few seconds. Mike Schur has said that the average reboot length was around 4 months for a total of 250-300 years.

Years?  What are these "years" you speak of?  🙂

 

[Affogato]

22 hours ago, theatremouse said:

I thought they went through approximately 800 reboots and the longest one was basically a year? And many were much shorter. So it was 800 years at most, not tens of thousands, but probably way shorter. There were more time jumps since then, but I thought it was implied less than the original torture reboot time. 

The "currentness" at the party was because it was the 4's ideal party combined, but when Patty said they keep current, there totally could've been more-future-than-the-crew's-current current stuff she was also aware of; it just wasn't necessary for the plot.

Il

Also the bearimey is curved. All that time could have curved around before thry died and ended up at the moment. 

[Affogato]

On 1/24/2020 at 12:23 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

There should be at least a dozen children for every adult in The Good Place.  How many children, especially in the distant past, could have earned negative points?  Especially infants and toddlers.

The way the point system works? Lots. Get mad, want to punish Mommy, knock over candle and burn down hut.  Steal food from hungry child like yourself but poorer. Bully your baby brother. And so it goes. Have you met children? The point of this show is ethical behavior is learned. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Affogato

[ParadoxLost]

On 1/26/2020 at 12:14 PM, tennisgurl said:

I mean, this can’t be the only answer to fixing the GP, it just seems too simple. I feel like there has to be some other twist here, or something else that will make the GP a real GP and not Cosmic Coachella. 

This is what is bugging me.  The fix to the GP was too simple and it doesn't seem like it would work.

How does it stop mush brain?  It seems more like you'd still go zombie like and then you would need to hold a moment of clarity long enough to decide to go through the door and then actually do it or be vigilant enough to know when to go through the door before its too late to hold that thought.

Patty couldn't remember the word 'math'.  Based on Patty's conversation with Eleanor and Chidi, the party goers shouldn't have been able to follow along with the explanation of the problem and solution that Eleanor gave.

I'm leaning towards the ideal welcome party being a diversion.  I think the GP is also customized to the humans who enter it.  It feels like a continuation of Michael's neighborhood.  Isn't this what would make Eleanor, Chidi, Tahani, Jason, Michael, and Janet happy?

I wouldn't be surprised i they had a time jump and a ton of reboots where they save the GP over and over again, together, before catching on.

 

 

[bros402]

3 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

This is what is bugging me.  The fix to the GP was too simple and it doesn't seem like it would work.

How does it stop mush brain?  It seems more like you'd still go zombie like and then you would need to hold a moment of clarity long enough to decide to go through the door and then actually do it or be vigilant enough to know when to go through the door before its too late to hold that thought.

Patty couldn't remember the word 'math'.  Based on Patty's conversation with Eleanor and Chidi, the party goers shouldn't have been able to follow along with the explanation of the problem and solution that Eleanor gave.

I'm leaning towards the ideal welcome party being a diversion.  I think the GP is also customized to the humans who enter it.  It feels like a continuation of Michael's neighborhood.  Isn't this what would make Eleanor, Chidi, Tahani, Jason, Michael, and Janet happy?

I wouldn't be surprised i they had a time jump and a ton of reboots where they save the GP over and over again, together, before catching on.

 

 

It stops mush brain because people know there is something other than all of their needs being instantly met before they know what they need.

[ParadoxLost]

3 hours ago, bros402 said:

It stops mush brain because people know there is something other than all of their needs being instantly met before they know what they need.

I know that the show says that but I disagree with them to the point that this is either setting up another twist or this episode is just bad depending on what the finale does.

Their explanation feels more like telling a room full of people with a degenerative brain disease that they have the option of suicide.  Basically, do everything you wanted to do and when your mental capacity starts slipping then choose to go throw the door.

I don't see how the knowledge that there is something else stops the mental decline.  What if someone goes a bit too long without choosing the door?  What is someone doesn't choose the unknown?  Does the GP now tell them the precise moment to choose the door just because Eleanor and Michael came up with the idea of giving them that option?

[companionenvy]

Yeah, I agree with ParadoxLost.

I can buy that the architects can't solve the problem of how to keep the residents happy, which is an abstract concept that they may not be able to appreciate. But making sure that someone's brain remains sharp seems like it should be well within their powers. Hypatia not remembering the word for "math" or the number 5 goes miles beyond boredom and reflects a massive mental deterioration; that's not the kind of thing that gets solved by re-establishing a sense of purpose.

Damn funny, though, I must admit 🙂

[Guest]

5 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

Their explanation feels more like telling a room full of people with a degenerative brain disease that they have the option of suicide.  Basically, do everything you wanted to do and when your mental capacity starts slipping then choose to go throw the door.

That presumes that their brains can degrade in The Good Place. I’m going of the assumption that they are in a perpetual state of bliss akin to a constant high but that their brains are still functionally normal. In that scenario I believe that a new option would be enough to jolt them back into awareness. 

 

5 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

What if someone goes a bit too long without choosing the door?  What is someone doesn't choose the unknown?  Does the GP now tell them the precise moment to choose the door just because Eleanor and Michael came up with the idea of giving them that option?

Why would there be any consequences for not going through the door? 

[iMonrey]

I just think the show hit a wall creatively, as far as where their premise could go. The whole thing is based on the very Biblical concept of Heaven and Hell. There isn't another option available (limbo or purgatory notwithstanding). The concept itself relies on an eternity in one place or the other depending on your worth, but eternity nonetheless, either way. 

That's why introducing this suicide option feels off. I mean, the characters in question have already experienced death. They have already stopped being, as we understand it. What they are experiencing now is a concept of an afterlife. How can they simply stop existing . . . again? They're already dead, how can they be more dead? It doesn't really make a lot of sense within the framework we've been given. 

That's the part I'm having trouble wrapping my head around. The whole show is based on what happens after you die. Their ultimate solution here is . . . to die. Again. Huh?

[companionenvy]

I mean, conceptually speaking I think it makes sense, and could work if well executed. There are atheists who commit suicide despite not thinking there's anything afterwards; non-existence seems preferable to continued life. There are also plenty of people who are completely untroubled with the prospect of death being an eternal nothingness; it terrifies me, but that's far from universal. 

1 hour ago, Dani said:

That presumes that their brains can degrade in The Good Place. I’m going of the assumption that they are in a perpetual state of bliss akin to a constant high but that their brains are still functionally normal. In that scenario I believe that a new option would be enough to jolt them back into awareness. 

That makes sense, but I still don't think -- brain deterioration or not -- that there would be immediate, seemingly unanimous rejoicing upon learning about the new option. Eleanor has figured out the answer, but TGP is populated, by ordinary (if, evidently, much better than average, at least according to a highly suspect point system) people. Why would everyone, upon hearing "You can off yourselves someday," instantly grasp that that was the solution to all of their problems?

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, companionenvy said:

That makes sense, but I still don't think -- brain deterioration or not -- that there would be immediate, seemingly unanimous rejoicing upon learning about the new option. Eleanor has figured out the answer, but TGP is populated, by ordinary (if, evidently, much better than average, at least according to a highly suspect point system) people. Why would everyone, upon hearing "You can off yourselves someday," instantly grasp that that was the solution to all of their problems?

I agree with you on that. The reaction to the announcement felt unrealistic. I wish they had shortened the experiment in the first half of the season to allow these issue to have been addressed to little bit more. The spent so much time explaining the problem with the old system and then just glossed over the damage that would have been done. 

[Ilovepie]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I just think the show hit a wall creatively, as far as where their premise could go. The whole thing is based on the very Biblical concept of Heaven and Hell.

Except isn't the new system a sequence of do-overs until you get enough points? That sounds more like reincarnation. Not Biblical.

I enjoyed Lisa Kudrow, but I just don't know why if ennui has set in, Janet cannot refresh their brain and give them something to do, and by something to do, a sense of renewed purpose. I feel like the "cease to exist" option is very bleak for this show........

[iMonrey]

I get the distinct impression we're giving this WAY more thought than the writers did. The Good Place is seriously flawed, and there's no way the show is going to be able to cover that in the remaining amount of time they've got, to the extent that they covered the Bad Place. It just seems to boil down to "eternity, you get bored after awhile." We've already come up with fixes that make more sense within the show's own universe.

If you've gotten bored with everything TGP has to offer after 5,000 years or so, the existence of an exit strategy isn't going to renew your appreciation for those thing. And the concept of a second "death," as it were, is darker and more depressing than I expect from this show.

[Cornhusker12]

22 hours ago, Dani said:

I wish they had shortened the experiment in the first half of the season to allow these issue to have been addressed to little bit more. The spent so much time explaining the problem with the old system and then just glossed over the damage that would have been done. 

Honestly at this point with one episode left it's incredible that they detoured off so hard on that experiment at all, it feels like such a waste of time and episodes in the end. I can barely remember who was involved or how it ended, I feel like Patty over here.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Cornhusker12

[ParadoxLost]

So on rewatch...

If the Good Place poofs what you want into existence, why do they have Janets?

Ring pops that explain the true meaning of Twin Peaks.  If there were candy dishes that explained every show I watched that went off the rails, I'd need a dentist in the Good Place.  Did I mention that I'm rewatching because I'm stubbornly refusing to watch the Magicians.

I feel like there must have been a ton of deleted scenes in the welcome center.  Eleanor doesn't disappear into a passport photos but good photo booth without something happening.

I did an internet search.  Stone Cold Steve Austin did attack Vince McMahon with a bed pan in 1998.

I don't need to translate the language on Michael's contract.  This isn't some genre show with a mystery that has clues at the heart of it that must be solved until you realize they never had a clue what everything was leading to all along.  But i really want to.

Its kind of weird that other Good Place residents are milling around in clothes that represent something about the new visitors's favorite things.  Is Jason going to have to wear a Tennessee Titan jersey to a welcome party some day and isn't that his hell?  Will he know he's wearing it?   And yes I googled that, I know nothing about football.

Its interesting that when Jason got bored with all his go cart and vampire jet pack desires being met, he just wanted to hang out with Eleanor/Chidi/Tahini/Michael/Janet again.  And Chidi and Eleanor made a comment in a similar vein about being together at the end.  

Another solution that I think would have been better than the one they ended up proposing.  From Chidi's questions about all the philosophers he wanted to meet none of them could get in.  So Patty had no one to engage in debate in.  I bet the stringent entry requirements made all the residents fairly solitary because their were likely few people that they were close to in lie that made it to the Good Place. 

So they need to get them to form a community until the new residents make into through the testing system and start providing stimulation.  And maybe forming bonds needs to be part of how people pass tests.

So this was much better on rewatch when just paying attention to more of the little details than the broad story arc of the episode.

[cleo]

I just watched this. It all felt kind of flat to me, as has the whole season. I'm spoiled about the finale but I'm not sure I'll watch it.

I found season 1 and 2 brilliant but 3 started to lag for me and I had to force myself to watch 4. 

Part of it is it's not as funny, it just seems flat. Ironically it kind of illustrates the point it's trying to make that too much of a good thing with no conflict or growth is boring.

It was a very ambitious show with some epic moments but I'm disappointed with the last 2 seasons.

[ByTor]

9 hours ago, cleo said:

It was a very ambitious show with some epic moments but I'm disappointed with the last 2 seasons.

And thanks to this, knowing what this show has become, I don't think I'll be able to rewatch the earlier seasons ever again.

[Jessa]

On 1/26/2020 at 12:14 PM, tennisgurl said:

I mean, this can’t be the only answer to fixing the GP, it just seems too simple. I feel like there has to be some other twist here, or something else that will make the GP a real GP and not Cosmic Coachella. I also wonder if The Door is really a door to nothing, or if it’s to some plain of existence that is so beautiful that it’s impossible to explain on a human scale. It’s not just “Earth, but nicer where everything is super convenient” but an actual paradise. 

I’m late to the game here, but I agree with this. I’ve always thought of heaven as something beyond our comprehension. Humans are so short sighted. People die and their loved ones hope they are fishing in heaven, or playing hockey with some famous nhl player who has died, lounging on a beach, or eating a steak dinner. Is that really the best we think heaven has to offer? Just like earth but the milkshakes taste better? Now that is depressing.

I’ve got to think that whatever is beyond the door is truly The Good Place. Something beyond our imaginations and uninhibited by the restrictions of our human experience.

[aradia22]

I thought this episode was off to a pleasant but slow start and then suddenly the committee from The Good Place quit. 

Lisa Kudrow is a great pull. 

I'm not sure I buy this whole argument. I mean, props to people who called it. But I don't think living with perfection and your needs met means you stop being creative and innovating. That feels like an easy lie to convince people that their lives should be full of struggle and wealth inequality is good because it keeps you hungry and you should be fine with being treated poorly and made to fight for every little thing. It's a very pro-capitalism sort of argument. Not having to worry about the material conditions of keeping yourself alive gives you the space to be creative and more thoughtful. Who knows what kind of books, music, art, etc. we don't have because people have to worry about meeting those material conditions and don't have leisure time? Of course people from all economic classes can find ways of being successful. But the Horatio Alger fantasy is rarer than the person who was born into wealth and privilege or at least having supportive middle class parents to encourage their ambitions.

I'll admit I'm biased because I would love an afterlife to read all the books and watch all the movies and talk to other people in an engaging and constructive way forever. The only way a Good Place would be disappointing to me is if they stopped getting new things from Earth. 

I feel like a more interesting thing to tackle would have been only having a set number of people in The Good Place. Would they all get along? Would they have gotten tired of each other? How would they have reacted to the cockroaches showing up? I don't know. Season 4 has been kind of disappointing. It feels like the show is as zombiefied as the people in The Good Place. 

[aradia22]

Quote

So the people who made it to the Good Place really were terrific people who lived exemplary lives. But they don't give a damn about the fate of virtually everyone they knew on earth?

Yeah, even if you weren't just content to muse over big ideas in paradise, I don't buy that all of these people would get bored after getting their fill of milkshakes and go-karts. I don't think we imagine the Good Place residents as thrill-seekers or hedonists. Who is to say that they can't think over how to solve mankind's issues and send that info to the judge or even go back to earth as reincarnated souls or guardian angels of some sort? If Michael is in charge, he can theoretically do anything. Do they just get info from earth? Why can't they create a way for people in The Good Place to look in if they want to? I honestly feel like this is lazy. For all the fun we've had with little puns and philosophy, I don't know that The Good Place the show has the most interesting version of the afterlife. I'm curious what someone like Bryan Fuller would have done as early Dead Like Me really seemed to have an idea of what it wanted to say. The Pixar movie Coco had this whole thing about whether people from the living world remember you. I'm too tired to think of examples now but other people have definitely put more thought into this.

Quote

Also, I wonder if they'll address what happens to either the very young or very old who get into the Good Place?  It would suck to be stuck at 7 or 12 or 85 for eternity. 

Yes! This is one of those things where I question how much they stretched in thinking through all the questions of the rules of the afterlife and what it would be like. 

Quote

Or maybe we should just wait until Beyonce gets to the GP and wait for her to solve everything!

Even if the Good Place committee was worthless, I have trouble believing that all the best minds wouldn't be able to build a more interesting version of society in the afterlife that wasn't just blandness or each person getting their individual fantasy. Though maybe with The Good Place as they wrote it, all the interesting people are in hell.

Again, I feel like that would be a more interesting problem for them to have faced on arriving in The Good Place... the fact that not that many people have gotten into The Good Place and a lot of the interesting people you'd want to meet were sent to The Bad Place. I don't think existential ennui is a problem of The Good Place as much as the people who ended up there. 

[possibilities]

I love the idea of all the Good Place residents getting together to brainstorm solutions for Earth problems, or inquiring about their loved ones in The Bad Place, and petitioning Gen to make changes in how TGP works, and to grant mercy for various people who didn't make it, and generally instead of being overfed zombies they were actually kind of uppity pains in the ass for the complacent bureaucracy of the afterlife.

They did say you could choose what age you wanted to be forever, but I think that implied you'd grown up and had a bunch of ages to choose from. Not sure about what happens if you die at age 2. Are you a baby forever? We really didn't see any children on this show whatsoever. Jason seemed to be the youngest character, and he was technically an adult, even if he had some qualities most often associated with adolescents.

[John Potts]

On 1/24/2020 at 11:56 PM, Dowel Jones said:

Then again, Billy Graham once said that there would be golf in heaven.

Well that would explain the existential ennui in The Good Place (come at me, golf fans)!

[Affogato]

On 2/7/2020 at 2:16 AM, possibilities said:

 

They did say you could choose what age you wanted to be forever, but I think that implied you'd grown up and had a bunch of ages to choose from. Not sure about what happens if you die at age 2. Are you a baby forever? We really didn't see any children on this show whatsoever. Jason seemed to be the youngest character, and he was technically an adult, even if he had some qualities most often associated with adolescents.

I bet that they go back and live those lives on earth. Maybe a choice for most, maybe below one age they just are born again. Makes the most sense.