S04.E11: Mondays, Am I Right?

[Kel Varnsen]

6 hours ago, whiporee said:

Also, the inconsistencies are really starting to show. Someone above was thankful Tahani passed her test, but she didn't. After all these lifetimes and all her "growth," she still couldn't think of a sincere nice thing to say about her sister

I read that as a case of if you can't say anything nice about someone don't say anything at all kind of thing. Tahani's sister and parents are pretty terrible so not calling them out, or trying to one-up them and instead just let it go was an improvement for her.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, whiporee said:

Also, the inconsistencies are really starting to show. Someone above was thankful Tahani passed her test, but she didn't. After all these lifetimes and all her "growth," she still couldn't think of a sincere nice thing to say about her sister. Eleanor still has trouble thinking past both herself and her past. Michael is still manipulative, and to be honest --- 

That was never supposed to be Tahani’s test. She was the volunteer to see if the architects could design a scenario that would challenge her greatest weakness. She was only there to provide feedback. She and the others believed that the their tests would come after the architects were trained. 

[secnarf]

23 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I dont know about you guys, but I found that small bacon loving Monday hating chainsaw bear extremely relatable as a human. 

Yes, he would fit right into "No-filter Friday" at the office.

 

[theatremouse]

Besides the obvious (this show always ends on a twist), the whole thing with Michael and Vicky doing Obviously Bad Lying to the demons (but with Tahani in the room) about the plan was a big tip off to me that something here is off and whatever seems like is happening in this episode, is not. For so many reboots with the four they lied seamlessly, or at least Michael did. Why in this circumstance would it suddenly be a giant conspicuous wink-wink fest? This show is so complex. If it turns out that whole bit was just so she could do the frustration at not doing a West Side Story riff joke, I will be very disappointed.

[Machiabelly]

I figure there is still a test ahead before they get in the real good place.

[Toodleoo]

I very much enjoyed Ted Dansen whirling around, coattails flying, behind the synthesizer as Janet sang Simply the Test.  It’s the little things.

[Ailianna]

11 hours ago, theatremouse said:

Besides the obvious (this show always ends on a twist), the whole thing with Michael and Vicky doing Obviously Bad Lying to the demons (but with Tahani in the room) about the plan was a big tip off to me that something here is off and whatever seems like is happening in this episode, is not. For so many reboots with the four they lied seamlessly, or at least Michael did. Why in this circumstance would it suddenly be a giant conspicuous wink-wink fest? This show is so complex. If it turns out that whole bit was just so she could do the frustration at not doing a West Side Story riff joke, I will be very disappointed.

WHen Michael was evil he lied well.  Since he's started being good, he's been less good.  Think about Zack Pizzazz and the other characters he played (other than Eleanor's bartender) to get the cockroaches together in Australia, or his lies to them when they saw the door.  Vickie's only a so-so actress too.  So I just took it as both of them overplaying the coup, and Vickie pushing beyond Michael's comfort level.  

One thing I am enjoying about the show is that now everyone is looking at every detail as a twist, so the twist could be that things are what they seemed.  That would shock a lot of people.  I am still expecting more from the last 90 minutes of this show, but it's amazing how much people look for twists.

[manticoraus]

On 1/17/2020 at 5:41 AM, Ray Adverb said:

Did Michael spin the story of Sissyphus as something he enjoyed?

Yes and I think it's even been philosophically pastured that whether or not Sisyphus is in eternal torment or a testament to human accomplishment it's just that. The mindset of the man who was always roll the boulder up the hill. Especially as when you get right down to it that's mortality in human life. You roll things up and then the sun sets and before you know it you've got to start it all over again. I knew challenge or a fresh new tragedy having to do things again and again. So ultimately who's the winner the gods right because they get to set the challenge and nothing you do can wet. Or is it in the mind of Sisyphus the man who realizes that challenge brings with it a new opportunity to succeed or to Simply maintain their personal sense of value an accomplishment by always being able to do it. There is after all a joy or a sense of accomplishment and a Daily Grind job well done. In some ways seeing as they're both place off of nerdy archetypes this is perhaps the better don't be a mean nerd message that I heard in pop culture in the last 10 years. 1 there are some very real negative issues surrounding so while yeah they are sometimes being sexist it's not so much they hate women so much as they have often been mistreated by life or underestimated or rejected so they have very understandable insecurities and not ha ha he thinks his penis is small so much as they patch it to find themselves either by struggle or by anticipating problems to avoid being overwhelmed or undermined by them.

 

Chidi has to learn how to put Faith in a person and the feelings that he's having and being willing to even suffer the possibility of failure and how to degree he's being a little arrogant. Michael has to see himself Beyond his job and his struggle as well as placing people in boxes of this person's an ass-whole which I must always fight and I am the person who is always struggling to do the right thing and instead just take circumstances as is. Even when they can see someone can take an idea that they put so much just to make it happen and someone else can do it better. That is enormously difficult to do

 for characterization on fallo ability of the male psyche I can't help but feel as if that's much more meaningful than yet another round of I'm going to take a bunch of political straw man concentrated on the character and signal to the audience how they're such an a****** as if that's somehow meaningful

 it's also felt like a interesting turn around on Jason and in my opinion a bit more believable than his amazing empathy Powers with regards to Janet or his entire relationship to Janet to be honest. we know that he's given to deception and scheming as well as anticipating a problem and responding to it with dramatic gestures. And this case one of his schemes were and he was able to do it by kind of getting a person but without necessarily being too harmful. It's something that uses impulsiveness but didn't deny it because he immediately made use of both his referent Tatian and his quick-wittedness in Orosi an angle and push on it. Not least of which I don't think he was faking it entirely. Obviously he has some doubts about him and Janet. But by needling for support from a father figure or at least someone who is his friend he was able to get the reinforcement that he needed in a way that he knew that he could push back to them and because he knows how their relationship works it becomes mutually supportive. Which incidentally indicates that there is a positive version or aspect of donkey Doug parenting

 

 he really has become his best self without necessarily becoming what someone would want him to be.

Eleanor she's kind of been done pretty much two seasons ago almost all of her stumbling blocks have been circumstantial sure her insecurities of flared up but they were so situational that unless she was really that childish I don't think she's majorly self-destruct. Part of it is that being the protagonist she doesn't really have her efforts undermined as much. As an example one of her biggest issues was needing control and Independence while being able to satisfy herself or risking intimacy and companionship.

 

For the most part tahani stopped dunking on her. obviously she's no less than Jason. And she's been lapping Chidi for the practicals for quite some time.  it's not satisfying television to actually do the Sisyphus thing. So what they've been doing is usually flipping the board so technically we're watching The Rock start from zero but it's also way of progressing to the next level.

 even when chidi technically had his amnesia it was another form of progression. He got to see new relationships form out as well as get a lot more time in his personal private idealic heaven. Even the challenges were a lot less extreme in this case Jason was supposed to push Chidi. he wasn't actually a liability so there was less Direct panic in the overall situation for instance Jason knew what not to do or did not do something when he knew he wasn't supposed to do it for the necessity of a plan

 

 I guess I'm just rambling right now anyway this was a neat little tie it up in a bow episode. Though if you told me that the next episode was about how the system that they just invented was the one they were always doing and you don't know whether or not their actions have consequences or that's what or how they originally made and trust us that the system because of Jeremy bearimy then what Ave

[tennisgurl]

Maybe the real Good Place was the friends we made along the way?

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Maybe the real Good Place was the friends we made along the way?

It would not surprise me if that is the final endgame of the show.  The show has always been about the connections we humans/demons/Janets make and the eternal question "what do we owe each other?"  The idea that the real Good Place is not an actual place but a community in which we build together and the journey we are all on fits well with what we have seen.  The original 6 characters have all become better because of being thrown together.  

[SoMuchTV]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Maybe the real Good Place was the friends we made along the way?

Lol. Which one is the “that’s so stupid but yeah!” icon?

[mikem]

One of the names on the blackboard that I didn't recognize was Chiune Sugihara.  He was a Japanese diplomat stationed in Lithuania during World War II.  In defiance of governmental policy, he wrote thousands of visas to Jews who didn't fulfill the official criteria to get one, which allowed them to flee.  After the war, he lost his diplomatic career, apparently because of his decision to help.

There are good people, and I appreciate the show helping me learn more about them.

Edited January 18, 2020 by mikem

[scarynikki12]

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Maybe the real Good Place was the friends we made along the way?

I see it as Hell is other people while Heaven is our people. Don't know if they'll go that way but it's already true in a sense.

[BobH]

3 hours ago, mikem said:

There are good people, and I appreciate the show helping me learn more about them.

Plus A corner for Jason’s selections, including Gleek and “da Super Friends”.  I’m sure he appreciated Chidi writing it down instead of doing a scribble-scrabble.

[aradia22]

There are still some cute little moments from the actors because they assembled a great cast. But the writing this episode still felt far too filler-y for an episode this close to the end.

It was fun to see Vicky pretend to be Tahani given that actress' history with the show.

It was very sweet that Chidi wasn't turned off by reading Eleanor's file. But 100% don't believe this fake conflict that he would think that he's too boring for Eleanor. What is this, Seinfeld? Friends? Show, you're better than this. 

I'm very interested in this simulation technology. I don't know the infrastructure of hell but it probably wouldn't be efficient to build each human their own little room like the one Tahani was put in. But having some kind of simulation means they wouldn't necessarily need as many demons to be actors the way it was in Michael's original neighborhood.

"I read some books, man. Jeez." Though Romeo and Juliet has nothing to do with those characters or their families being different. It's just a feud.

I'm going to miss Chidi's smile. 

Vicky's outfit when she was in charge of the architects and wearing the headset was adorable. 

I'm not sure how to feel about the ending. On the one hand, it seems a little easy. Are we SURE there's no test? On the other hand, I'd like to finally see the REAL Good Place. 

[chaifan]

On 1/17/2020 at 1:28 PM, whiporee said:

Also, the inconsistencies are really starting to show. Someone above was thankful Tahani passed her test, but she didn't. After all these lifetimes and all her "growth," she still couldn't think of a sincere nice thing to say about her sister. Eleanor still has trouble thinking past both herself and her past. Michael is still manipulative, and to be honest --- 

 

The point wasn't that Tahani couldn't think about anything nice to say about Kamila, it was that she was just spoonfed dirt on Kamila - that her album was going to tank - and she didn't throw that in her face. 

 

6 hours ago, mikem said:

One of the names on the blackboard that I didn't recognize was Chiune Sugihara.  He was a Japanese diplomat stationed in Lithuania during World War II.  In defiance of governmental policy, he wrote thousands of visas to Jews who didn't fulfill the official criteria to get one, which allowed them to flee.  After the war, he lost his diplomatic career, apparently because of his decision to help.

There are good people, and I appreciate the show helping me learn more about them.

I looked up at least 4 names, all new to me.  Mostly philosophers, but one guy revolutionized agriculture. 

ETA:  For people thinking that Michael and Vicki were faking it for another "twist", then how do you explain the conversation they had back in the Bad Place office (when Vicki was going off to cold yoga)?  There was no one else around to hear it, so it had to be for realsies.

Edited January 19, 2020 by chaifan

[aradia22]

Quote

Did Michael spin the story of Sissyphus as something he enjoyed?

Yes. That was one of the more truthful parts of the episode even if I'm not entirely sure it fit Michael or was an appropriate conflict this episode. You can hate a job and complain about it all the time. It can seem pointless or futile. But you still don't want it to be taken away by automation. You don't want to be replaced and feel useless because someone can do your job so much better than you can and you don't know that there's anything else for you to do. I don't recall if we've ever seen Michael having an ambition beyond being a fake Good Place architect and then helping the cockroaches. I guess there's been a hint of him being fascinated with humans but that's not really a job. Unlike humans, it seems like the demons, the judge, and everyone else in the afterlife seems to know that they were created to serve a purpose. I can see how that would be jarring for Michael.

Quote

The third is that we're in Newhart/ St. Elsewhere territory, where it all will have been some sort of dream of Eleanor's, so as she's getting closer to waking up things don't have to make sense. Time and coincidence often run together at the end of a dream, that this has all been about the reclamation of the soul of Eleanor Shellstrop.

I think it would definitely make sense because she has been such a focus of the series, sometimes (to me) to its detriment. But there's something a little boring about her getting a true reset to live her life (and not the reset where she sort of did work for that environmental nonprofit). I like that their memories were restored. I don't think any satisfying ending can involve that kind of a reset where they aren't the people who have gone through almost 4 seasons of character development. 

I agree about season 4 being a bit of a letdown so far. I hope they stick the landing but I'm definitely not confident it will happen.

Quote

I don't think it will be a wasteland or anything obviously bad on first sight, but I can see an existence totally free of challenge and struggle becoming depressingly boring in short order. Without conflict, what would there be to generate interest?

YMMV but I've never understood this way of thinking, especially when it comes to writing characters/plots. To me, characters don't need to be in conflict to be interesting. I just think a majority of writers don't know how to write things like happy couples and people who aren't fighting. Learning how to be happy is compelling to me. A couple growing and changing together and choosing to be together through the changes in life and their personalities and interests is compelling to me. If there is an afterlife, I think it would be wonderful to have an eternity to engage with ideas, read all the books and see all the movies, teach yourself new skills, and continue to learn and grow as a person. To me, conflict and challenge feels too much like scrounging in the mud, rarely having time to do things that are fulfilling. 

[SomeTameGazelle]

10 hours ago, chaifan said:

ETA:  For people thinking that Michael and Vicki were faking it for another "twist", then how do you explain the conversation they had back in the Bad Place office (when Vicki was going off to cold yoga)?  There was no one else around to hear it, so it had to be for realsies.

There was more to that conversation than we saw, and we know that because in the staged coup, Vicky revealed that they had also agreed to perform the dance from West Side Story. So in theory it's possible that they actually hatched a plan to act out the coup and then execute something more devious. I don't have a strong feeling either way and I don't want to speculate too much because that will only make me discontented with the actual ending.

10 hours ago, aradia22 said:

"I read some books, man. Jeez." Though Romeo and Juliet has nothing to do with those characters or their families being different. It's just a feud.

Maybe the book Jason read was about how Romeo and Juliet was adapted as West Side Story. 

 

[cleo]

Michael saying 'who am i?' Really stood out to me and I wonder if it means anything.

I would like to see Glen again. 

[Mrs peel]

On ‎1‎/‎17‎/‎2020 at 6:32 AM, Chaos Theory said:

If anything I think there me be a problem with the ACTUAL Good Place.   Like because no one has gone there for hundreds of years it is a virtual wasteland.   Worse then Cleveland.   Florida bad.   

I think they will be bored in the good place.  And/or the bad place architects will be terrible, and our 6 (including Michael and Good Janet) take over the testing.

[Ray Adverb]

So I guess the demons have holodecks and that's how they administer the test?    Cuts down on labor I suppose.

[Quilt Fairy]

Did anyone else find it strange that Janet went with them to the Good Place?  I know she's now considered their friend (and Jason's ex) but no matter how much she's evolved, she's still "just" a Janet, one of many.  Won't the Good Place have their own Janet(s) and wouldn't this Janet be needed in the test neighborhood?  

[SomeTameGazelle]

21 minutes ago, Quilt Fairy said:

Did anyone else find it strange that Janet went with them to the Good Place?  I know she's now considered their friend (and Jason's ex) but no matter how much she's evolved, she's still "just" a Janet, one of many.  Won't the Good Place have their own Janet(s) and wouldn't this Janet be needed in the test neighborhood?  

It was Bad Janet who broke up with Jason. I believe Our Janet is still with him. Certainly the advice Jason gave Chidi was premised on the idea that they were a couple. Maybe there will be some conflict about where she is allowed to stay but since she can pop in and out of her void and take Jason in they seem to have options.

I loved the way Jason tricked Chidi by pretending he wanted comfort and advice about his own relationship. It reminded me of therapies I have heard about where the patient role plays comforting a hypothetical other person.

[theatremouse]

Either way, she is a Good Place Janet. Michael stole her out of there, no? So it seems reasonable she'd go to the Good Place also anyway.

[captain1]

I think that when the get to the Good Place it will be terribly boring, and they will realize that what’s truly worthwhile for eternity will be helping people improve.

[Bklyndeb]

On 1/18/2020 at 4:47 PM, mikem said:

One of the names on the blackboard that I didn't recognize was Chiune Sugihara.  He was a Japanese diplomat stationed in Lithuania during World War II.  In defiance of governmental policy, he wrote thousands of visas to Jews who didn't fulfill the official criteria to get one, which allowed them to flee.  After the war, he lost his diplomatic career, apparently because of his decision to help.

There are good people, and I appreciate the show helping me learn more about them.

In 2019, we visited the Sugihara Home in Kaunas,  Lithuania.  It was incredibly moving.  There are saints who walk among us.  

Edited April 22, 2021 by Bklyndeb