S06.E08: The Last Temptation of Barry Allen, Part 2

[Trini]

Quote

With The Flash battling Bloodwork (guest star Sendhil Ramamurthy), Iris and Cisco fight to help Barry take control before he's lost to Ramsey's influence. Meanwhile, the rest of Team Flash fight to reclaim Central City from Bloodwork's growing army.

Michael Nankin directed the episode written by Kristen Kim & Joshua V. Gilbert.

Airdate: 12/3/2019

[SevenStars]

I'm tired of criticising/complaining about the writing for Westallen/Iris. So I'm just going to say, the actors did great/good in this episode, even DP.  Candice did the best she could with what she was given. 

[bettername2come]

I yelled out "Dammit!" upon seeing that Nash Wells flashforward for the third friggin time. New night, new clue. It seems fair.

I like that Barry was secretly in control to some degree the whole time. I'd suspected as much when he said "Trust me."

Cecile seriously gets some of the worst crap thrown at her with her powers. I would not want to feel an entire zombie horde's fear.

[mtlchick]

That crisis is...punctual.  

Bloodwork should have been a lot more interesting than he turned out to be. 

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, SevenStars said:

I'm tired of criticising/complaining about the writing for Westallen/Iris. So I'm just going to say, the actors did great/good in this episode, even DP.  Candice did the best she could with what she was given. 

Same.  I thought this episode was marginally more interesting and I liked Cisco and Iris working together... 

BUT... (I can't not speak on this)

The way this show constantly tries to turn EVERY Westallen moment that should be private into a group activity is extremely disturbing, bordering on erasure and racism.

That little scene of KF/Cait was completely unnecessary to the plot and should've been left on the cutting room floor.  It feels like the show is deliberately doing everything in its power to elevate all of TF to the level of Iris and it's - quite frankly - deplorable and manipulative.

It's like in order to soothe the fans who hate that Iris is with Barry and the female lead, they are overcompensating by overloading on OTF in emotional moments that really should belong to Barry and Iris.  Iris telling Barry that she got Cisco to vibe her to her first first real kiss with Barry was so sweet - but that should have been a private moment between Barry and Iris!  FFS!

I was expecting Barry to apologize to Iris for nearly choking her twice in the episode - but instead he mentions how he couldn't control it to the whole team and lumps her in with all of them in that - when Iris was the ONLY one who Dark!Flash ever choked out.  And he choked her out TWICE.  That deserved a separate apology - they deserved their own moment of him being upset about that.  But of course - nothing.

The buildup to Crisis has been trash.

Worse - we have to suffer through Ramsey bashing Iris for the out of character behavior of "accepting" Barry's fate in Crisis... just like she was bashed by Allegra for it.. just like she was bashed by Ralph for it... 

The writers write for Iris like they hate her.  Or like they're writing hate-bait.

I just don't get it.

Edited December 4, 2019 by phoenics

[Lantern7]

Looks like Team Flash will be on zero rest as the Crisis hits. Thanks a lot, D'ohinder! Seriously, though, Ramsey made for an effective villain . . . and I'm sure he'll escape ARGUS custody to plague Team Flash (or its successor) in early 2020.

On 11/27/2019 at 6:37 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

I am finding Bloodwork- aka, Low-Rent Carnage- to be incredibly underwhelming as a villain.

I wanted to disagree with you last week, but seeing the CGI monster at the end . . . you might be right. I mean, I don't think it's a ripoff, but -- size aside -- there is a resemblance. At least Ramsey didn't incorporate turds into his speech on eternal life.

Mrs. Rosso . . . so she wasn't dead? Hallucination? At the time I saw it, I thought it was Ralph.

Creepy episode. How messed up is it that Central City goes through hell right before what could be considered the ultimate end?

[SevenStars]

8 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Same.  I thought this episode was marginally more interesting and I liked Cisco and Iris working together... 

BUT... (I can't not speak on this)

The way this show constantly tries to turn EVERY Westallen moment that should be private into a group activity is extremely disturbing, bordering on erasure and racism.

That little scene of KF/Cait was completely unnecessary to the plot and should've been left on the cutting room floor.  It feels like the show is deliberately doing everything in its power to elevate all of TF to the level of Iris and it's - quite frankly - deplorable and manipulative.

It's like in order to soothe the fans who hate that Iris is with Barry and the female lead, they are overcompensating by overloading on OTF in emotional moments that really should belong to Barry and Iris.  Iris telling Barry that she got Cisco to vibe her to her first first real kiss with Barry was so sweet - but that should have been a private moment between Barry and Iris!  FFS!

I was expecting Barry to apologize to Iris for nearly choking her twice in the episode - but instead he mentions how he couldn't control it to the whole team and lumps her in with all of them in that - when Iris was the ONLY one who Dark!Flash ever choked out.  And he choked her out TWICE.  That deserved a separate apology - they deserved their own moment of him being upset about that.  But of course - nothing.

The buildup to Crisis has been trash.

Worse - we have to suffer through Ramsey bashing Iris for the out of character behavior of "accepting" Barry's fate in Crisis... just like she was bashed by Allegra for it.. just like she was bashed by Ralph for it... 

The writers write for Iris like they hate her.  Or like they're writing hate-bait.

I just don't get it.

All of this. I was ready to be done with the show last season (Stopped watching midseason) but when I heard Eric was announced as the new showrunner, I decided to stick around. But now, I might be done with the show and catch any crumbs that Iris get on YouTube. 

[shantown]

Where was Ralph? Why were Kamillah and Cecile together at the office so late at night? Why did a zombie run so deep into a tunnel? If Bloodwork has Barry why did he need Cisco alive? Why do I think so hard about these episodes?

The zombie plot would have made a spooky Halloween episode. As the penultimate episode before Crisis? I think it did a disservice to both plots. 

Mostly I’m so incredibly annoyed by Caitlin and Frost’s voiceover conversations while DP just stands there looking bored and calling it acting. 

[quarks]

1. In retrospect, it might have been more interesting to keep Frost evil and Caitlin good - that way, the whole "YES, YOU CAN ICE OVER THIS WOUND" thing might have had a touch of suspense, instead of turning into a "Hi, Ice Person Whose Sole Thing Is, Well, Ice, Ice This Thing, We Know You Can Ice This Thing, And You Are A Good Person Now, So, Ice This Thing." It felt rather flat, especially with the zombies around. And an evil Frost telling Caitlin to go spend time with her friends before everyone dies also would have had more emotional power.

2. It's rather difficult to get overly excited about zombies attacking Nash Wells when two different shows had already shown us he survived them only to get sucked into the DOOR OF MEANINGFUL SYMBOLS.

3. Even Candice Patton seemed to be struggling a bit with the clunky material she was given tonight. Geesh. At least Iris got to save the day with a gun.

[ottoDbusdriver]

56 minutes ago, phoenics said:

The buildup to Crisis has been trash.

Agreed.  

And Bloodwork was just so underwhelming as the main villain of Season 6A.
And he is defeated by a peptalk from his dead mom.  Can't swing a dead cat in the DCU without hitting a superhero with a dead mom.

The whole sub-plot with Cecile and Kamilla was so dumb -- how about you shut a frakking door and lock it.

The drop of Bloodwork in the accelerator was beyond ridiculous.

I laughed so hard when DarkFlash took out Cisco and his photon cannon.  Did Cisco not anticipate something like that would happen ?

[Trini]

So I'm NOT a fan of the horror genre; but Wallace clearly is. At least he warned us, though ("Season of thrills and chills!!"). I'm hoping that it is just for this half-season - please.

Not that I think he was needed here, but it does seem a bit odd that Ralph was mostly absent from these last two episodes. I wonder what Hartley was doing in his time off? (I doubt it was Crisis filming since I'm pretty sure he's not in it much.)

Fast-forward worthy stuff: Caitlin and Killer Frost talking to each other; Cecile and Kamilla; More Nash in a tunnel.

I did really like Iris and Cisco working together even though they had different approaches/ideas. Glad they got to express their feelings about Barry. Did not like #Prepared, because, are they, though? Anyway, loved that they figured out that Barry was trying to reach them and what he wanted them to do.

Not that the pseudo-science on this show ever makes sense, but light rays being able to counteract Bloodwork's infection is something they didn't even try to explain. *sigh* Anyway, I knew that it would be Allegra saving the day once Cisco introduced his light gun thingy. Stay predictable, Flash. (NO. I'm just kidding; please stop.) I guess they needed her to have a hero moment?

Eh - they could have just saved the VFX budget for something else other than the Bloodwork monstrosity at the end there. I get that it's based off the comic look of the character, but I don't think it worked here. (Wait - are they going to use THAT instead of Ramamurthy in case they bring him back??)

Wasn't really feeling the resolution to Bloodwork. Although I thought Barry using Ramsey's mother against him was a nice touch. So they're just going to keep him at STAR Labs? I don't see how that's going to work long term. My resolution would have been to somehow remove the dark matter from Ramsey, then he'd instantly (or soon) die from HLH and/or the effects of the dark matter.

I did really like some of the callbacks to previous seasons and moments. Yay! Iris knows about her and Barry's real first kiss! And Cisco used to vibe her there? My Irisco heart! Aw, of course Barry & Iris are going to face Crisis together. But we couldn't get a real kiss before the red skies appeared?? After we just talked about kissing? COME ON.

So Barry better really die in Crisis, or all this drama will be for naught - LOL!

[phoenics]

47 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

The whole sub-plot with Cecile and Kamilla was so dumb -- how about you shut a frakking door and lock it.

 

OMG This!  All they had to do was stay in that room, turn the lights off and lock. the. door.  It was after hours, most folks were gone, so doors would naturally be LOCKED.

That made no sense other than to give them screentime.  I would've preferred it if they'd been at Jitters (rebuilt) or something rather than at the office like that.

I did appreciate that finally we got to see outside of Star Labs though - in the city, etc..

I think having everything mostly happening at Star Labs is problematic - at least at Jitters you could see random folks from the city... it felt like a real place people lived and worked around.  But with so much happening at SL, the show has lost its core and ability to connect with real people's lives. Even the scene at the West house was in the backyard - which makes me worried that they've destroyed the West Family home sets.

Is Jitters gone for good?  Because we actually need that set.  Making EVERYTHING revolve around Star Labs really hurts this show.

It's like it's lost its heart.

[adora721]

Ramsey's monster form reminded me of the Abomination from the 2008 "Hulk" movie with Edward Norton.

What a lackluster Fall finale. ARGUS must be amassing quite an army of  potential Suicide Squad members and now have Bloodwork. Ralph is still recovering at ARGUS, I guess, from last week's attack. 

I think Eric W. may be one of those men who either hate romance in superhero genre or he just hates IR romance. Either way, the lack of any respect for WestAllen as a couple is absurd. They don't act like a couple married only two years nor as a couple about to lose their relationship. 

Did Iris and Killer Frost actually make eye contact? Must be the end of the world.😂

Edited December 4, 2019 by adora721

[Trini]

32 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Even the scene at the West house was in the backyard - which makes me worried that they've destroyed the West Family home sets.

They showed the West house in the previous episode; so it's still around.

I don't know why they would be rid of Central City's one and only coffee shop, though. It was a good location for meetings.

[thuganomics85]

Yikes, when it comes to Bloodwork, Sendhil Ramamurthy in make-up is way better than whatever hell that CGI mess was at the end!  That entire thing was so laughable.  But, whatever: Ramsey has been defeated thanks to Barry using his memories to distract him with his dead mother, and now he's in ARGUS' hands.  For now.  Because, yeah, as Ramsey pretty much spelled out, he ain't going to be stuck in there forever (of course, this being ARGUS, they'll probably try to have him join the Suicide Squad and have everything blow up in their faces.

While I enjoyed last week a lot, this really did feel like a big old "Oh, crap!  We got to wrap this all up before Crisis kicks in!" rush job.  It really is weird that Crisis (and Barry's supposed sacrifice) has been treated like an afterthought here, while over on Arrow, it's the main game.  The only one who really seems to be doing anything about it is Nash, and most of it has been on his own.

I did like seeing Iris and Cisco interact with each other. It feels like that rarely happens.  Candice Patton and Carlos Valdes work well together.

I was also wondering why Cecile and Kamilla didn't just bunker down in the office.  It's not like anything came out of them escaping from the building.

They seem to be going all in on Allegra now.  New potential regular?

I guess Ralph is still resting.  He'll need it before Crisis!

I did like Barry's final speech to everyone.

It's almost here!

[Lady Calypso]

8 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

The whole sub-plot with Cecile and Kamilla was so dumb -- how about you shut a frakking door and lock it.

I absolutely fast forwarded through that stuff once I realized it would just be them running away from zombies. Maybe there was some substance to their dialogue in between that, but I didn't bother to watch. I still don't like Kamilla, and Cecile is only good around specific people. I did catch a bit of the plot when Kamilla figured out she was channeling the emotions of the zombies, and that was sad, for sure, but otherwise? Meh.

Yeah, part 1 was way better than this part. Even though this part had a lot of Cisco/Iris (I LOVE when these two get paired together) and smart Barry, everything else just didn't work, especially the shoddy dialogue. 

I do like Allegra, so I'm glad she had a part in saving the day. But it just goes back to the idea that metas are everything to this show. They rely too much on metas. 

Just a really, really weird ending because Crisis is coming up and they had to wrap up the Bloodwork storyline first. It did feel very rushed. But at least he's captured and in ARGUS, although:

Spoiler

Very poor writing on The Flash's part for naming Lyla as the person they went to to send Ramsey to ARGUS when we know Lyla's been too busy dealing with Crisis! 

I'll admit, when Ramsey mentioned needing to go to STAR Labs and made the explosion sound, I thought "WE'RE GETTING RID OF STAR LABS? SWEET!" Alas, that wasn't what ended up happening so boo.

[jmonique]

10 hours ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

The whole sub-plot with Cecile and Kamilla was so dumb -- how about you shut a frakking door and lock it.

THIS. "The building is overrun with zombies, except in the room we're in. Obvi, we need to leave this room." The hell?

Sendhil Ramamurthy is a fine actor, and great eye candy, but I was over him playing a zealot about superpowers literally a decade ago. Dark, Slobbering Mohinder is just tiring me out. 

This used to be my favorite Arrowverse show. Now it just annoys me.

[tennisgurl]

Not anywhere as good as Part 1, but it did at least have some parts that I liked. I always like when Cisco and Iris work together (Carlos and Candace are great together) and I liked seeing their different styles as to how to deal with possessed Barry, and them bonding over having to deal with losing Barry and how much that hurts them. I liked that Barry was still in there deep down and was giving them clues as to how to stop Bloodwork, using the bond they forged against him, and that Cisco and Iris figured it out pretty quickly. Bloodwork accusing Iris of being a bad wife for giving up on Barry was brutal but the kind of thing that I can imagine Iris would worry about without ever expressing it to anyone. In general, the A plot was pretty good, even if it wasnt anywhere near as engaging and emotionally raw as the A plot of last weeks episode. 

Its biggest flaw was that everything needed to be wrapped up pretty quickly with Ramsey to get ready for Crisis next week, and that made for a rather anti climactic ending. For a show that has spent so much of its season spinning its wheels getting ready for Crisis, its shocking how frantically everything was stuffed into just one episode to wrap everything up. The lead up to Crisis had some really great moments (mostly last week and for the first few episodes of the season) but has really been a big let down. They had so much to work with, especially considering Barry, unlike a lot of Arrowverse heroes, has a spouse and parent (well, adopted parent) still around, plus his close friends, plus a daughter he lost and now will never get to see grow up (seriously, LET ARROWVERSE HEROES RAISE THEIR CHILDREN!!!) that is a TON of emotional drama to deal with, but instead of going to that very obvious well, they spent way too much time on boring subplots with the supporting characters and not nearly enough time with people (especially people named Iris) dealing with what is apparently going to inevitably happen, or trying to prevent it. 

I wonder if the show runner feel uncomfortable writing romance, or just isnt into it, and thats the reason for the lack of Barry/Iris content this season. Its like every time it seems like they will get a romantic moment, it ends up quickly cutting to Killer Frost being angsty or some hijinks with Cecile and her empathy powers or a fight scene breaks out, and its just ridiculous. Of course, it could also be any number of other things, like a dislike or Iris or trying appeal to tons of different parts of fandom, I have no idea, but the show seems to be bizarrely allergic to giving Iris and Barry romantic moments, especially for a couple that has now been married for a few years now! Like this week, I liked the bits we got with Barry and Iris, but I really wanted them to have a scene with just the two of them, talking about what Barry went through with Ramsey and the Speed Force and the issues that he has clearly been suppressing about his impending death and how full of tragedy and death his life has become since he got his powers, Barry being horrified that he almost hurt Iris under Ramseys influence, the grief they feel over everything that has happened and will happen, thats the kind of stuff you should probably discuss with your spouse! I liked everyone reminiscing about the past (Iris went back to their first kiss she forgot about! Awwww!) and Barry saying he didnt want his last minutes before Crisis to be sad awkward silence, but we really needed a scene that was just Barry and Iris before that. 

I mean, you would think that Barry and Iris would be horribly messed up by Dark Barry almost killing Iris, but I guess we HAVE established that both of them spend an insane amount of energy pushing their real feelings down so they dont upset their team, so I guess this is sadly in character? 

I liked Allegra helping out, but Cecile and Kamilla running around trying to escape the zombies was just a massive waste of time. Have you two never seen a zombie movie?! Kamilla, your dating Cisco, I cant imagine you guys have never watched a zombie movie! You should know not to just run around like idiots, you hunker down and try to find a way to get help for outside. 

I think I read that HS was filming for some Crisis stuff, so that explains him not being around. That Crisis sure is punctual, if nothing else. Oh shit you guys, red skies! That means its officially Shit Get Real O Clock! 

[Trini]

14 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I wonder if the show runner feel uncomfortable writing romance, or just isnt into it, and thats the reason for the lack of Barry/Iris content this season. Its like every time it seems like they will get a romantic moment, it ends up quickly cutting to Killer Frost being angsty or some hijinks with Cecile and her empathy powers or a fight scene breaks out, and its just ridiculous. Of course, it could also be any number of other things, like a dislike or Iris or trying appeal to tons of different parts of fandom, I have no idea, but the show seems to be bizarrely allergic to giving Iris and Barry romantic moments, especially for a couple that has now been married for a few years now! Like this week, I liked the bits we got with Barry and Iris, but I really wanted them to have a scene with just the two of them, talking about what Barry went through with Ramsey and the Speed Force and the issues that he has clearly been suppressing about his impending death and how full of tragedy and death his life has become since he got his powers, Barry being horrified that he almost hurt Iris under Ramseys influence, the grief they feel over everything that has happened and will happen, thats the kind of stuff you should probably discuss with your spouse! I liked everyone reminiscing about the past (Iris went back to their first kiss she forgot about! Awwww!) and Barry saying he didnt want his last minutes before Crisis to be sad awkward silence, but we really needed a scene that was just Barry and Iris before that. 

It's so stupid, because they reference previous great WestAllen moments in this same episode, but they apparently didn't feel up to actually writing a new one for this very important pre-Crisis episode. They also missed the opportunity of a lightning rod moment of Iris bringing Barry back to himself.

[Kate45]

18 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I mean, you would think that Barry and Iris would be horribly messed up by Dark Barry almost killing Iris, but I guess we HAVE established that both of them spend an insane amount of energy pushing their real feelings down so they dont upset their team, so I guess this is sadly in character? 

This!

I don’t understand the writing of this show. It’s stupid. There, I said it. Barry as dark flash nearly killed his wife twice and that was never addressed. It would be natural for Iris to feel timid around Barry after that happened. I would imagine that Barry would feel guilt for putting Iris in that position. But, nothing. As always. We have time to have Caity Frost talk to each other on screen for no reason, but no time to discuss the fact that Iris is set to lose her entire family within 6 months. 
 

This show is not grounded at all, and it seems to be going in the worst direction. I’m not sure that it can be turned around.

Another thing that’s random to me: has anyone else noticed this increase of male on female violence this year? In previous seasons, it would mostly be same sex fighting. But, this season we have had both Iris and Caitlin choked by men. It’s a disturbing trend that I hope ends very soon. 

[adora721]

5 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

don’t understand the writing of this show. It’s stupid. There, I said it. Barry as dark flash nearly killed his wife twice and that was never addressed. It would be natural for Iris to feel timid around Barry after that happened. I would imagine that Barry would feel guilt for putting Iris in that position. But, nothing.

Not apologizing to Iris for almost killing her or helping to try to kill her seems to be the standard for this show. The sad thing is I thought that would change with a new showrunner. I was, obviously, very wrong.

[tennisgurl]

4 minutes ago, Kate45 said:

We have time to have Caity Frost talk to each other on screen for no reason, but no time to discuss the fact that Iris is set to lose her entire family within 6 months. 

Writers Room: "Hmmm I guess this is another horrific trauma for Barry and Iris, I think we should let them have a conversation about this and how it affects them and how Iris is suffering from seeing her husband giving into darkness out of what was apparently an enormous amount of fear and grief and that he tried to kill her and might even be afraid seeing him for a second, and how Barry still probably has a lot of the same feelings he was feeling last week that we should maybe address, and the guilt he must feel about almost hurting the woman he loves more than anything and fear about how she will go on after Crisis...OR, hear me out, what if we just didnt address any of that and instead had Caity Frost give each other more mutual pep talks that we have already had about seven billion times this season about how awesome KF is now and and how she is totes the best hero that this show has! Maybe even have Allegra randomly call her a badass, just so the audience really knows who the real hero is here! I mean, its just as successful as how they have every character just stop and talk at the camera to remind us that Black Siren is the best and most redeemed awesome hero ever now on Arrow! Who would want to watch the actual main character on this show dealing with the actual emotional fallout of any of this when they could watch KF angst more about nothing while Barry prepares to die a tragic and horrible death, and Iris prepares to lose her husband, father of her child, and childhood best friend!?! 

Wow, I think I am a bit more bitter than I thought I was! 

[BeautifulFlower]

3 hours ago, Kate45 said:

This!

I don’t understand the writing of this show. It’s stupid. There, I said it. Barry as dark flash nearly killed his wife twice and that was never addressed. It would be natural for Iris to feel timid around Barry after that happened. I would imagine that Barry would feel guilt for putting Iris in that position. But, nothing. As always.
 

Savitar. Did we all forget how Iris acted towards him after he failed to kill her? Killer Frost?

I'm not upset over this. This is the sad truth. Iris has been written to be too forgiving, so this is not a surprise.

[rmontro]

I thought the whole Dark Flash get up looked really juvenile and cringy.  Like the black stuff on the Flash logo, that just looked ridiculous.  Not to mention Barry apparently suddenly stopped brushing his teeth.  He looked like an evil imp elf.

I don't find the plot worth discussing, so that's all I have to say. 

[phoenics]

46 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Savitar. Did we all forget how Iris acted towards him after he failed to kill her? Killer Frost?

I'm not upset over this. This is the sad truth. Iris has been written to be too forgiving, so this is not a surprise.

But at least Savitar was shocked and surprised at her generosity... his words were "I tried to kill you..." in shock and awe that she was so forgiving.

The PERFECT scene when Barry emerged from his darkness! would have been him immediately grabbing Iris in a hug, asking her if she's okay and that he's sorry - he couldn't stop... then after Iris assures him she's okay... he could notice Ramsey was missing.  I can literally see the scene IN MY HEAD easily and it would've taken 10-15 seconds of screentime.

Instead we got a lame "I'm back" and "you're back"... which had little to no emotional punch.  Not like it could have.

The reason many of us say this show needs black women writers is because every last one of us who saw Barry choking Iris out twice felt that in our bones and it didn't feel good.  The fact that the largely male and white writing staff just skipped past that like it didn't matter is because to THEM - it didn't.

The fact that Barry said all he could do was keep from hurting them is proof.  He DID hurt Iris - you know she would have bruise marks around her neck - I'm a similar skintone and I bruise when someone jabs me with their finger.

1 minute ago, rmontro said:

I thought the whole Dark Flash get up looked really juvenile and cringy.  Like the black stuff on the Flash logo, that just looked ridiculous.  Not to mention Barry apparently suddenly stopped brushing his teeth.  He looked like an evil imp elf.

I don't find the plot worth discussing, so that's all I have to say. 

LMAO - "He's an angry elf."

[Starry]

Iris didn't get any credit for getting through to Barry. My headcanon is that Barry was able to resist because of what the Speed Force said to him, that choosing the Bloodwork's path would mean losing the qualities Iris loves about him. But then this episode didn't make it clear that Iris was the reason why Barry didn't totally succumb to Ramsey. He didn't kill Cisco either. He was sending messages to the both of them. He even said that he let Ramsey infect him so he could turn things around and use Ramsey's own doubts against him. That part confused me.

But overall I hated it that Iris wasn't clearly shown as his lightning rod and didn't get any credit for her part in saving the day. But let's make sure Barry thanks Allegra and calls Frost a badass. The toddlers should be praised and coddled all the damn time. I am so-so about Allegra. Some times I like her, others I don't and I already fear she's going to be used more for her powers than for Team Citizen.

Everything with Caitlin Frost talking to herself is once again stand-up comedy. So bad.

I think Iris talking about Cisco vibing her to her first erased kiss with Barry was very sweet but that should have been a private moment and should have taken place at their loft. I think Grant and Candice added some tender, sweet touches but the writing for them is so...sigh. They can't have Barry say anything about Iris. The master of grand speeches is suddenly mute when it comes to talking about how much his wife means to him. It sadly looks like it's being done on purpose.

20 hours ago, phoenics said:

Worse - we have to suffer through Ramsey bashing Iris for the out of character behavior of "accepting" Barry's fate in Crisis... just like she was bashed by Allegra for it.. just like she was bashed by Ralph for it...

That's how you know they are being malicious. They could have used Ralph and Ramsey bashing Iris for being a "bad wife" to give her a POV but that just never happened. At least if the other characters didn't act like what Iris was doing was strange or bad one could make the argument that the writers were just that clueless, that some internalized biases prevented them from exploring Iris' feelings. Instead they are making her act accepting and not in any rush to spend time with Barry and then use other characters to bash her for it. They know that what they have written for Iris is wrong but instead of correcting it they throw hate at the character.

Also, in this episode Iris talks about not wanting Bloodwork to take the last hours she's left with Barry away from her only for her and Barry to spend those hours with the entire team. So bad.

At least the Iris and Cisco parts were quite good.

[adora721]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Iris has been written to be too forgiving, so this is not a surprise.

Likewise, the people who hurt her are written as being unremorseful, unapologetic, and unconcerned about how their actions afffect her. It doesn't even occur to them that Iris is hurt, physically or emotionally. As if Iris is just a numb, dead inside, synthetic human designed to "take a licking and keep on ticking."

[phoenics]

57 minutes ago, Starry said:

That's how you know they are being malicious. They could have used Ralph and Ramsey bashing Iris for being a "bad wife" to give her a POV but that just never happened. At least if the other characters didn't act like what Iris was doing was strange or bad one could make the argument that the writers were just that clueless, that some internalized biases prevented them from exploring Iris' feelings. Instead they are making her act accepting and not in any rush to spend time with Barry and then use other characters to bash her for it. They know that what they have written for Iris is wrong but instead of correcting it they throw hate at the character.

Also, in this episode Iris talks about not wanting Bloodwork to take the last hours she's left with Barry away from her only for her and Barry to spend those hours with the entire team. So bad.

At least the Iris and Cisco parts were quite good.

I know folks thought I was being overly dramatic and paranoid when I kept talking about the shift in tone from Episode 2 and especially 3 onward.  The weird direction that pulled focus on KF/Barry and at times cut Iris out of the shot.  The awkward way they had Iris come up to Barry and KF after KF figures out Barry is gonna die - almost like Iris didn't belong there with him.  The weird camera angles that pushed Iris to the edges.  The strange way editing has been done to elevate Caitlin in Barry's dialogue... even when Barry's mouth is obviously saying CISCO.  The complete ignoring of Iris' PoV coupled with the hostile writing decision to have TF bash Iris for her silence and "acceptance" of Barry's death.  The solo episodes for TF to bond with Barry before he dies and not ONE EPISODE focused on Iris and Barry bonding and grieving over lost love, lost chances and their lost child who will never be born when Barry dies.

It is hostile, vicious writing and I am so glad to see twitter lighting Eric Wallace's ass up.  He's let women but most especially black women and girls down with the heavy handed strong black woman trope he's draped over Iris (and worse, he lets the team bash her instead of being concerned for her) without giving her a point of view at all ...

I think I'm in shock.

I kept hoping I was just being paranoid - but I've seen this kind of ish before in writing.  Especially the hate bait the writers are doing.  But now they aren't even giving Iris or WA fans crumbs.  The only fans winning are the ones who love TF (specifically OTF) and hate Iris.  They don't even have to suffer through SEEING WestAllen - they get endless scenes with Barry while Iris gets choked out and crumbs.

I'm so pissed off.

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

Likewise, the people who hurt her are written as being unremorseful, unapologetic, and unconcerned about how their actions afffect her. It doesn't even occur to them that Iris is hurt, physically or emotionally. As if Iris is just a numb, dead inside, synthetic human designed to "take a licking and keep on ticking."

Now you see how doctors consistently believe black women and men don't feel pain and how they suffer deadly consequences because of it.  The SBW trope isn't just racist, it's dangerous and life threatening.

[Trini]

Some BTS info from Sendhil Ramamurthy:

Blooper reel? :

[Starry]

12 hours ago, phoenics said:

I kept hoping I was just being paranoid - but I've seen this kind of ish before in writing.  Especially the hate bait the writers are doing.  But now they aren't even giving Iris or WA fans crumbs.  The only fans winning are the ones who love TF (specifically OTF) and hate Iris.  They don't even have to suffer through SEEING WestAllen - they get endless scenes with Barry while Iris gets choked out and crumbs.

The Reddit fanboys who have been raging about Iris and WestAllen since season 3 are happy with what they are doing with the character now. The OTF fans on Twitter are also talking about "balanced writing". Some are more hopeful than ever about SB. In previous seasons they used to lit up the writers' mentions for making the show about Iris and writing Barry OOC ( because he rightfully prioritized his wife and family over Cisco and Caitlin ).

Fans are always going to have different opinions but when the most vicious Iris haters start acting like you are the answer to all their prayers there's something very wrong going on.

[phoenics]

Another show catered to the racists and fanboys.  It was called Sleepy Hollow.

We know what happened to that show.

I think I'm out after Crisis plus one last 6B episode to see if they've fixed this.  If not, Adios.

[Brinny]

Oh my god. What the fuck was that? 

Look, I love me some Flash cheese (pretty sure I’ve confessed my love for King Shark in these forums more than once), but everything about this Bloodwork storyline has been horrible in the worst way. Most notably whatever poorly rendered CGI horror show monster  they ended up with.

Actually, almost everything about this entire 6A season has been horrible in the worst way. I was SO optimistic about the new season and feel so let down. The pacing has been atrocious, almost everything on screen seems to be more of the telling instead of showing variety (and not even in a sort of cringe-filled exposition way, just in a plain old lazy way), and while it’s great to explore different relationships/pairings in later seasons of any show, focusing on this while your titular character is literally counting down the days until his death is probably NOT the best time to do this.

Like, why are we watching Frost and Caitlin stand in a room alone talking to “each other”? Does anyone really need to watch Kamilla and Cecile make an ill advised plan to run around in the dark? Who decided either of those things were dynamic storytelling? Why are Barry and Iris having their one or two sparse intimate moments IN FRONT OF TEAM FLASH?! What is going on?!!

At this point, if you wanna shake things up so desperately, just kill Barry and start over with Wally. The characters who are onscreen now are already dying from character assassination (minus, maybe Cisco and Barry, to a degree), so it can’t be much different. 

[dmeets]

On ‎12‎/‎4‎/‎2019 at 3:49 PM, Starry said:

He even said that he let Ramsey infect him so he could turn things around and use Ramsey's own doubts against him. That part confused me.

Oh good, so I didn't mishear that? What the fuck, Barry? You let yourself get turned in order to mindfuck Ramsey back? It's nice you had faith that Iris and Cisco would figure out what to do and interpret coded messages, but that's one hell of a gamble you played, seeing how you injured your wife and helped zombify who knows how many innocent civilians in the interim. Did he not realize what it'd mean to be infected? If he willingly got infected just to play Ramsey, that's even more reckless than Flashpoint.

[shantown]

44 minutes ago, dmeets said:

If he willingly got infected just to play Ramsey, that's even more reckless than Flashpoint.

Sounds exactly like Barry then!

[Quark]

Dark Flash had a really creepy smile. I couldn't stop laughing when I saw it.

[immortalfrieza]

On 12/4/2019 at 1:23 PM, Kate45 said:

Another thing that’s random to me: has anyone else noticed this increase of male on female violence this year? In previous seasons, it would mostly be same sex fighting. But, this season we have had both Iris and Caitlin choked by men. It’s a disturbing trend that I hope ends very soon. 

Better than the alternative which they've used too much of on this show in the past, when the females just magically avoid any real threat and/or damage whatsoever at the hands of men just because it's a man attacking a woman thanks to the plot writing around having to do it when logically they should. Iris was a total moron going to their apartment to talk a Brainwashed and Crazy Barry down, the villain decided to have Barry hand deliver Iris and Cisco to him. In both cases getting choked for a bit was the least of the potential consequences and I'm glad to see that what should happen did happen.

 

On 12/4/2019 at 7:00 PM, phoenics said:

I know folks thought I was being overly dramatic and paranoid when I kept talking about the shift in tone from Episode 2 and especially 3 onward.  The weird direction that pulled focus on KF/Barry and at times cut Iris out of the shot.  The awkward way they had Iris come up to Barry and KF after KF figures out Barry is gonna die - almost like Iris didn't belong there with him.  The weird camera angles that pushed Iris to the edges.  The strange way editing has been done to elevate Caitlin in Barry's dialogue... even when Barry's mouth is obviously saying CISCO.  The complete ignoring of Iris' PoV coupled with the hostile writing decision to have TF bash Iris for her silence and "acceptance" of Barry's death.  The solo episodes for TF to bond with Barry before he dies and not ONE EPISODE focused on Iris and Barry bonding and grieving over lost love, lost chances and their lost child who will never be born when Barry dies.

It is hostile, vicious writing and I am so glad to see twitter lighting Eric Wallace's ass up.  He's let women but most especially black women and girls down with the heavy handed strong black woman trope he's draped over Iris (and worse, he lets the team bash her instead of being concerned for her) without giving her a point of view at all ...

I think I'm in shock.

I kept hoping I was just being paranoid - but I've seen this kind of ish before in writing.  Especially the hate bait the writers are doing.  But now they aren't even giving Iris or WA fans crumbs.  The only fans winning are the ones who love TF (specifically OTF) and hate Iris.  They don't even have to suffer through SEEING WestAllen - they get endless scenes with Barry while Iris gets choked out and crumbs.

I'm so pissed off.

Now you see how doctors consistently believe black women and men don't feel pain and how they suffer deadly consequences because of it.  The SBW trope isn't just racist, it's dangerous and life threatening.

You act like this is a new thing for Iris. Iris has basically functioned as little more than a living prop the entire run of the show. Iris has no powers or combat skills of any kind, unlike Cisco, Caitlin and the various Welles she has absolutely no skills that are of actual value to the team at all and she's never going to get either one. Iris' role has been to be this woman Barry pined over and then when they finally got together to give her husband pep talks to make him into a more effective hero. Her own feelings have been treated as pretty much irrelevant to anything since the show started except in context as to whether she'd get together with Barry and she herself doesn't display those feelings much. Even an entire season focused almost entirely on preventing her death was far far more about how her death would effect Barry than it was about her or how she felt about it.

The most they've ever attempted to do with Iris outside of her relationship with Barry was make her team leader only to pretty much shove that aspect aside 90% of the time she was supposed to be doing it. In the case of this season ignore it entirely as Barry makes Cisco the team leader instead of her despite the fact that she's had months of experience in the matter. Then they have this whole plot with the Central City Citizen that as of right now hasn't been relevant to anything (though to be fair is probably setting something up for the second half of the season) and has been more of an excuse just so she even has a plotline. Even on Supergirl Kara's Catco News side has been all but ignored for most of the show but has been significantly of more importance to the plot than Iris' own blogging or little newspaper has ever been. In fact, Iris' paper has had much more importance as another set for everybody to meet up and discuss things outside Star Labs rather than anything the paper has published or done.

The fact that they've all but completely ignored Iris' feelings about her husband dying (not to mention the fact that she should be fighting with absolutely everything she has to prevent it, though that's not limited to her) and avoided having anyone acknowledge it including in this episode is pretty much par for the course.

[phoenics]

5 minutes ago, immortalfrieza said:

Better than the alternative which they've used too much of on this show in the past, when the females just magically avoid any real threat and/or damage whatsoever at the hands of men just because it's a man attacking a woman thanks to the plot writing around having to do it when logically they should. Iris was a total moron going to their apartment to talk a Brainwashed and Crazy Barry down, the villain decided to have Barry hand deliver Iris and Cisco to him. In both cases getting choked for a bit was the least of the potential consequences and I'm glad to see that what should happen did happen.

 

Hmmm.  I'm not sure this is accurate - not for Iris, at least.  Iris faced down Tony Woodward, she fought off and shot the Clock King who nearly dragged her by her hair.  Not to mention her ducking Wally's attempted punch and then her knocking him TF out in S3.  In all instances, she was in dangerous situations with male characters who managed to be menacing without choking her out. That's a particularly violent tendency that hasn't really been seen on this show aside from seeing Iris shanked repeatedly in S3, both on show and in promos/recaps.

But more disturbing than that is the violence against women seems to be happening with no remorse or attention.  Particularly when it's Iris.  Even in S1 when Caitlin got hemmed up by her throat by Blink (or whatever her name was) and Iris knocked the villain out, there was an acknowledgement between Iris and Caitlin... the moment wasn't just glossed over like nothing happened.

I just - I just can't imagine Superman being under mind control and choking Lois Lane out and him not coming to and being super (heh) apologetic about it.  That this happened with Flash and Iris and Barry never directly addresses it and instead "All Lives Matters" it when he did this to Iris twice, unlike what he did to Cisco.

Also - Iris wasn't a "moron" for going to see Dark!Barry - I was actually glad to see that.  She's his lightning rod - and she's snapped him out of mind control before.  Remember Grodd?  Why should Iris feel this is any different?  And she was right.  Yes it was dangerous, but like she said, "in sickness and health".  That was the most in character we'd seen Iris this whole season regarding how she is with Barry.

You act like this is a new thing for Iris. Iris has basically functioned as little more than a living prop the entire run of the show. Iris has no powers or combat skills of any kind, unlike Cisco, Caitlin and the various Welles she has absolutely no skills that are of actual value to the team at all and she's never going to get either one.

This feels like an awfully reductive view of Iris, not to mention inaccurate.  Cisco and Caitlin have combat skills?  When?  Iris was raised by a cop and has routinely demonstrated more of an ability to fight as a human than Cisco or Caitlin. Or even a human Barry.  Cisco no longer has powers either.  And Caitlin might as well be in a relationship with the floor for all the times she ate pavement as KF whenever they needed her to fight.  This season is the FIRST time KF has EVER been not useless in a fight, lol.

Meanwhile Iris:

• Ducked Wally's punch and then laid him out with a crazy punch
• Fought Marlize
• Dove off a roof to save Barry
• Shot at Dr. Light, saving Linda and herself
• Punched out Girder, saving Flash and herself
• Shot the Clock King
• Saved Caitlin from being choked out
• Wears explosive earrings (lol that was awesome)

I'm sure I'm still leaving some scenes out where Iris is a badass, but this idea that she's a useless character isn't true.  It's also true that Iris doesn't have to be a scientist, badass or any of the things fandom seems to demand of her in order for her to be "useful".  She's the love of Barry's life and a pretty capable reporter.  Her blog led to her getting a job at a major paper and eventually the Citizen.

I don't think the writers do the best job with Iris because they seem to want to shove her into the very small box you seem to like her in, but that doesn't mean Iris isn't a great character in her own right. 

At least she's not a Frosty Sue or Deus Ex Cisco.

[BeautifulFlower]

1 hour ago, immortalfrieza said:

 Iris was a total moron going to their apartment to talk a Brainwashed and Crazy Barry down, the villain decided to have Barry hand deliver Iris and Cisco to him.

She wasn't a moron. Barry is her husband and long time best friend. Unlike Cisco, Iris didn't IMMEDIATELY give up on Barry just because he was under Ramsey's influence. Iris wanted to give it a chance that maybe talking to him would get through to Barry. Barry's been under the influence before by Grodd. She got through to him then, so she thought she could get through to him with Ramsey. That wasn't Iris being a moron, that was her being hopeful.

1 hour ago, immortalfrieza said:

 

You act like this is a new thing for Iris. Iris has basically functioned as little more than a living prop the entire run of the show. Iris has no powers or combat skills of any kind, unlike Cisco, Caitlin and the various Welles she has absolutely no skills that are of actual value to the team at all and she's never going to get either one. 

When did you start watching this show? What show have you been watching? Iris has no skills? Iris is the daughter of a cop. It has been shown and told to us that Joe trained Iris in self defense and boxing. He trained her how to use a gun. We've seen Iris use her skills plenty of times. So you saying she has no combat skills is wrong.

And what combat skills do the others have? The ones the writers forced them to have out of nowhere? With Iris, we've actually seen her develop these skills. With powers, they still got knocked out. Seriously, Killer Frost became a joke. You don't need to be a genius to be valuable to the team.

Do you think Joe brings nothing to the team?

[SevenStars]

46 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

She wasn't a moron. Barry is her husband and long time best friend. Unlike Cisco, Iris didn't IMMEDIATELY give up on Barry just because he was under Ramsey's influence. Iris wanted to give it a chance that maybe talking to him would get through to Barry. Barry's been under the influence before by Grodd. She got through to him then, so she thought she could get through to him with Ramsey. That wasn't Iris being a moron, that was her being hopeful.

When did you start watching this show? What show have you been watching? Iris has no skills? Iris is the daughter of a cop. It has been shown and told to us that Joe trained Iris in self defense and boxing. He trained her how to use a gun. We've seen Iris use her skills plenty of times. So you saying she has no combat skills is wrong.

And what combat skills do the others have? The ones the writers forced them to have out of nowhere? With Iris, we've actually seen her develop these skills. With powers, they still got knocked out. Seriously, Killer Frost became a joke. You don't need to be a genius to be valuable to the team.

Do you think Joe brings nothing to the team?

Iris is the only character it has been shown who has combat/fighting skills because she was raised by a Dad who believed in preparing his children to fight. The other characters outside of Joe can barley fight. Without powers and gadgets, the other characters can hardly defend themselves. Barry, despite Joe's best effort when he was growing-up, seems to have learned nothing and is useless in fights without his power.

[immortalfrieza]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

She wasn't a moron. Barry is her husband and long time best friend. Unlike Cisco, Iris didn't IMMEDIATELY give up on Barry just because he was under Ramsey's influence. Iris wanted to give it a chance that maybe talking to him would get through to Barry. Barry's been under the influence before by Grodd. She got through to him then, so she thought she could get through to him with Ramsey. That wasn't Iris being a moron, that was her being hopeful.

Moving this to the Iris West Thread.

[Trini]

A few things on re-watch:

Considering that they made this a 'part 2' of the previous episode, it really seems like a big missed opportunity that they didn't follow up on all the revelations about Barry's mental state in part 1.

They could have deleted the whole Cecile + Kamilla vs. zombies subplot, and instead shown us Barry winning the mental battle against Bloodwork.

And while Iris was in the A-plot, it would made sense for her to be even more involved with her bringing Barry back to himself or helping him resist Bloodwork; and of course Barry discussing those fears that were brought up in part 1 with her.

I wonder if Cisco's line at the end about "the old days" is a clue about the direction of the rest of the season? Are they moving back to a VOTW format?

And maybe Iris' line about liking time travel hints at

Spoiler

a possible adaptation of the comic story in which she is from the future? Which Wallace has mentioned being interested in.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Trini