S15.E06: Golden Time

[Castiels Cat]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

That's Eileen's fate.  Now that she's back in a body, so Sam can sleep with her and then watch her die (instead of offscreen like last time) and feel horribly guilty about it.  

Yes. I think so... probably. Chuck twirled his mustache at that hug.

[catrox14]

10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The amount of grief Sam is showing over Rowena is so far out of proportion for what we saw on the screen, I am convinced it's being ghost-written by a fanfic author.

I think because Sam said "I killed her" in response to Eileen saying "You miss her?",  his grief isn't really grief at all. It's guilt and he's upset because he feels guilty. He also said "Does it seem like your life is a big cosmic joke" to the deaf girl killed by an unseen and unheard hell hound is that he was more upset about how Rowena death affected him more than Rowena being dead. I did appreciate that Eileen's response was Showing him she's a fucking ghost who was in hell instead of Heaven. I thought Shoshanna played it like 'Really, Sam?'.

I really want to know if Jensen ad libbed the line from Dean about "I didn't do a damn thing ' I legit thought that's some grade A snark about Dean in this episode. I'm sure it's wishful thinking on my part LOL.

I'm thinking it's endgame Saileen, or they kill her again  just to torment Sam

Spoiler

Why didn't Cas smite the djinn instead of stabbing him? Is he losing his power again? Could this point towards an end game human!Hunter!Cas? That would certainly prevent the Empty from claiming him since he would be human. Hmm

Overall boring. And was with that shitty music during the big fight scene? Is Chuck now the music director? It was some kind of terribad ripoff of Miami Vice. God's it loud, terrible and distracting.

Dean's pajamas under his Dead Guy robe were a delight

[Castiels Cat]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think because Sam said "I killed her" in response to Eileen saying "You miss her?",  his grief isn't really grief at all. It's guilt and he's upset because he feels guilty. He also said "Does it seem like your life is a big cosmic joke" to the deaf girl killed by an unseen and unheard hell hound is that he was more upset about how Rowena death affected him more than Rowena being dead. I did appreciate that Eileen's response was Showing him she's a fucking ghost who was in hell instead of Heaven. I thought Shoshanna played it like 'Really, Sam?'.

I really want to know if Jensen ad libbed the line from Dean about "I didn't do a damn thing ' I legit thought that's some grade A snark about Dean in this episode. I'm sure it's wishful thinking on my part LOL.

I'm thinking it's endgame Saileen, or they kill her again  just to torment Sam

  Reveal spoiler

Why didn't Cas smite the djinn instead of stabbing him? Is he losing his power again? Could this point towards an end game human!Hunter!Cas? That would certainly prevent the Empty from claiming him since he would be human. Hmm

Overall boring. And was with that shitty music during the big fight scene? Is Chuck now the music director? It was some kind of terribad ripoff of Miami Vice. God's it loud, terrible and distracting.

Dean's pajamas under his Dead Guy robe were a delight

Nothing showed up in the spoiler????

Not sure why Cas is losing his powers except that it was something that happened in a 5 when he was cut off from heaven and Chuck is reworking a 5 Winchester Gospels endings... so his powers are on/off.

I think Eileen is a goner after she sleeps with Sam and he will inadvertently be to blame and it will be horrible.

We are in a demented s 5 in which Chuck/God wants them to suffer and learn lessons before they die. 

Those writers are pissed off.

[ahrtee]

Did I miss some explanation about how they knew it was a djinn?  All I remember is a few missing bodies and the kid drained of blood, which, tbh, could be any number of things.  And did Cas  just happen to have a knife dipped in lamb's blood with him?  

25 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Could this point towards an end game human!Hunter!Cas?

Moved to another thread (as soon as I figure out which one it belongs in.) 😊

Edited November 22, 2019 by ahrtee

[gonzosgirrl]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think because Sam said "I killed her" in response to Eileen saying "You miss her?",  his grief isn't really grief at all. It's guilt and he's upset because he feels guilty. He also said "Does it seem like your life is a big cosmic joke" to the deaf girl killed by an unseen and unheard hell hound is that he was more upset about how Rowena death affected him more than Rowena being dead. I did appreciate that Eileen's response was Showing him she's a fucking ghost who was in hell instead of Heaven. I thought Shoshanna played it like 'Really, Sam?'.

I really want to know if Jensen ad libbed the line from Dean about "I didn't do a damn thing ' I legit thought that's some grade A snark about Dean in this episode. I'm sure it's wishful thinking on my part LOL.

I'm thinking it's endgame Saileen, or they kill her again  just to torment Sam

  Reveal spoiler

Why didn't Cas smite the djinn instead of stabbing him? Is he losing his power again? Could this point towards an end game human!Hunter!Cas? That would certainly prevent the Empty from claiming him since he would be human. Hmm

Overall boring. And was with that shitty music during the big fight scene? Is Chuck now the music director? It was some kind of terribad ripoff of Miami Vice. God's it loud, terrible and distracting.

Dean's pajamas under his Dead Guy robe were a delight

I agree about Sam's guilt in this case, but he's been red-eyed and moping since her demise, and gets all misty over her spell books, etc. It's dumb.

On the bolded - Billie was going to 'toss' Dean and Sam to the Empty so I don't think being human would/should preclude Cas from going there. Of course there's 'new canon' so...

I really wanted Dean to take off his dead-guy robe and give us a fuller view of those pj pants.

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And did Cas  just happen to have a knife dipped in lamb's blood with him?  

I guess angel blade overrules any normal weapon of lore? Or, you know, 'new canon'. That's a thing now.

[Commando Cody]

My only thoughts on Eileen, if she's going to be semi-regular this season, she would have been more useful as a ghost. They had the means to bring her back, they could have waited til the end.  I don't believe ghosts go crazy immediately.  Some of the ghosts in season 7 had been dead for years and they hadn't deteriorated yet.  I suppose if she dies again it would give Sam more motivation to get rid of Chuck. 

I was always neutral on Eileen.  It is good that Adrianne Palicki is busy with the Orville, I love that show, but Jessica would have been Sam's full circle.  Although it has been 15 years since her death.  Maybe at this point, it wouldn't have worked anymore. 

This episode seems to be the reason Sam and Dean hate witches. It makes me hate them as well. Sometimes I think it's more the actresses that play them that makes me dislike the witch episodes. 

Not a great episode, but not as bad as others have been this season. 

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree about Sam's guilt in this case, but he's been red-eyed and moping since her demise, and gets all misty over her spell books, etc. It's dumb

Oh I think he's felt guilty since he killed her. Not just this time.

[tennisgurl]

I can imagine that it must just be wearing down on Sam that pretty much every friend/loved one/ally/random innocent person pretty much ends up dead/in hell/miserable, especially lately so he is really feeling the guilt angst right now. Especially considering their whole lives have apparently been written out for Chucks amusement, which means all of those people died because they were in Sam and Deans orbit, and that them dying and suffering added to Sam and Deans drama and if they never met the Winchesters, they might be alright now. Or at least, thats how I read it I have no idea of thats what the writers are actually trying to get across here. 

[ahrtee]

27 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I can imagine that it must just be wearing down on Sam that pretty much every friend/loved one/ally/random innocent person pretty much ends up dead/in hell/miserable, especially lately so he is really feeling the guilt angst right now. Especially considering their whole lives have apparently been written out for Chucks amusement, which means all of those people died because they were in Sam and Deans orbit, and that them dying and suffering added to Sam and Deans drama and if they never met the Winchesters, they might be alright now. Or at least, thats how I read it I have no idea of thats what the writers are actually trying to get across here. 

Well, not just Sam.  That's why they've been alternating being depressed/angsty.

OTOH, did Chuck create everything just to set up Sam and Dean's story?  In which case, none of the people they didn't have contact with might not really have existed at all.  It's enough to give you a metaphysical headache. 😊

[Shannonsspirit]

6 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I saw where the writer of the episode was quite proud that she was following the "new canon!" that was established a couple of episodes ago.

Well, good for her. Just ignore the fact that the show has something going for it that very few other shows will ever have: 14 seasons of world building and established history and characterization and oh, yeah, CANON. Ignore the ways that the writers could use this as a strong foundation for the final season in so many satisfying ways. (And no, bringing back random characters for brief "convention" appearances does not count as doing this.)

Sure, you just go ahead with your shiny "new canon" -- doesn't matter if it doesn't even make sense. How pointless is it to even have a Heaven versus a Hell, if it is so simple for people like Eileen to accidentally end up in Hell? But whatever.

And as Katy says, let's not even ask why Bobby and John are still in Heaven now. Or are the angels going to come knocking on their doors up there with a notice of eviction, which states that under New Canon Regulation 5.2, they must be relocated back to Hell? It is kind of insulting to the viewers, who have watched the show faithfully for so long, for the writers to act as if they can just shrug and say, "Yeah, well, new canon."

You make so many excellent points, revealing. The insult to the long time viewers seems to be the underlying premise of this season.

Chuck's purpose appears to be two-fold, representing both writers and audience. Years of writing and watching Sam and Dean face inordinate struggles with monsters, foes and the loss of loved ones and allies. It is the superficial synopsis that a teenager would reduce the show to, while first-time marathoning ten seasons in one month. This is not why I watched, but they think it is.

The world and its characters were richly drawn and developed, organically, with evolving lore and rational canon that a thoughtful audience could accept, because it made sense within that world.

Contrived struggles and revisiting old friends and allies, while overwriting canon is a mockery.

[Shannonsspirit]

48 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I can imagine that it must just be wearing down on Sam that pretty much every friend/loved one/ally/random innocent person pretty much ends up dead/in hell/miserable, especially lately so he is really feeling the guilt angst right now. Especially considering their whole lives have apparently been written out for Chucks amusement, which means all of those people died because they were in Sam and Deans orbit, and that them dying and suffering added to Sam and Deans drama and if they never met the Winchesters, they might be alright now. Or at least, thats how I read it I have no idea of thats what the writers are actually trying to get across here. 

Maybe, but realistically, everyone they associate with is already hunters or in that dangerous world, regardless of Sam and Dean. I always thought that point was overemphasized. If you are a firefighter or soldier in battle, it does stand to reason that those you associate with have a higher mortality rate. A prime example is the death of Ash. Ash lived in the Roadhouse among other hunters who were marked by Azazel. Dean saying they got him killed is not true.

[AwesomO4000]

44 minutes ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Ash lived in the Roadhouse among other hunters who were marked by Azazel. Dean saying they got him killed is not true.

And Ash is cool with it.

(I really liked Ash.)

I agree with you though that the guilt both Sam and Dean heap on themselves is a bit much. Even including Rowena... How many times had Rowena been killed before this? Any one of those could have been permanent, and Rowena seemed to pick up enemies everywhere she went ...including her own son.

That she lived as long as she did was amazing in my opinion. She lived enough for multiple lifetimes, and took other peoples' lifetimes while doing so in order to further her own (or just to get a free meal.)

Sadly with LOL canon, the show has seemed to have forgotten that they wrote Rowena in the beginning as a horrible character, and so she actually got a better sendoff than many other characters who'd done less bad than she did got. But instead Sam has to be all mopey about her and guilty.

Why don't they just make Sam be all mopey about Lucifer? Oh wait... in a round about way they already did that with Nick. *sigh*

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, Shannonsspirit said:

You make so many excellent points, revealing. The insult to the long time viewers seems to be the underlying premise of this season.

Chuck's purpose appears to be two-fold, representing both writers and audience. Years of writing and watching Sam and Dean face inordinate struggles with monsters, foes and the loss of loved ones and allies. It is the superficial synopsis that a teenager would reduce the show to, while first-time marathoning ten seasons in one month. This is not why I watched, but they think it is.

The world and its characters were richly drawn and developed, organically, with evolving lore and rational canon that a thoughtful audience could accept, because it made sense within that world.

Contrived struggles and revisiting old friends and allies, while overwriting canon is a mockery.

Canon has been rewritten since the nepotism duo became staff... Does rogue reapers or reapers are now Angels ring any bells... and the list of their atrocities grew with each episode they wrote and the behind the scenes power they wielded. As if marriage to the EP wasn't enough.

Don't forget that these writers are proud to have been voted #2 worst villains on the CW.

They take pride in ruining the show.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree about Sam's guilt in this case, but he's been red-eyed and moping since her demise, and gets all misty over her spell books, etc. It's dumb.

On the bolded - Billie was going to 'toss' Dean and Sam to the Empty so I don't think being human would/should preclude Cas from going there. Of course there's 'new canon' so...

I really wanted Dean to take off his dead-guy robe and give us a fuller view of those pj pants.

I guess angel blade overrules any normal weapon of lore? Or, you know, 'new canon'. That's a thing now.

Didn't Dean wing it last season too in an episode with a djinn. These particular writers do not care.

I watch Legacies afterwards and they do care about those details. It's otherwise throwaway but at least their writers come up with CV lever monsters and remember how they get killed. 

[Shannonsspirit]

19 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And Ash is cool with it.

(I really liked Ash.)

I agree with you though that the guilt both Sam and Dean heap on themselves is a bit much. Even including Rowena... How many times had Rowena been killed before this? Any one of those could have been permanent, and Rowena seemed to pick up enemies everywhere she went ...including her own son.

That she lived as long as she did was amazing in my opinion. She lived enough for multiple lifetimes, and took other peoples' lifetimes while doing so in order to further her own (or just to get a free meal.)

Sadly with LOL canon, the show has seemed to have forgotten that they wrote Rowena in the beginning as a horrible character, and so she actually got a better sendoff than many other characters who'd done less bad than she did got. But instead Sam has to be all mopey about her and guilty.

Why don't they just make Sam be all mopey about Lucifer? Oh wait... in a round about way they already did that with Nick. *sigh*

I loved Ash. The show does have a history of needlessly killing off some characters. Sometimes people just move or retire from view; though it was great seeing him in Heaven able to master Enochian and enter other Heavens 

I love Sam and believe his emotions. Rowena was one of those characters you love to hate, then just love.

[FlickChick]

What was this shit that I wasted forty minutes of my life on? I agree with everyone who said that it was a snoozefest. SN episode - Dean = snoozefest. I expected more from Glynn - I guess she drank the koolaid too. Or I'm also beginning to think that whoever is in charge these days is giving out a list to the writers of which lead character is to be onscreen, which past character is supposed to come back this week, and which atrocious music is to be played. That way they can piss off the longtime viewers on three levels. Fuck you, Show!!!!

[Castiels Cat]

Thinking Cas' case was too easy too... not sure what the lesson was. When the mother insisted on coming along I suspected that she was the monster protected her monster spawn. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

I love Sam and believe his emotions.

Oh I do, too. I think sometimes though that Sam forgives a little too easily - last time it got him killed (via Nick). I guess Sam's forgiving easily is fairly consistent though, unless his being angry will result in more drama, in which case that happens sometimes instead.

3 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

Rowena was one of those characters you love to hate, then just love.

The Winchesters have had a lot of those recently... strange bedfellows and such. And I guess now with Chuck, they may have even more strange friends and allies.

[Shannonsspirit]

27 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Oh I do, too. I think sometimes though that Sam forgives a little too easily - last time it got him killed (via Nick). I guess Sam's forgiving easily is fairly consistent though, unless his being angry will result in more drama, in which case that happens sometimes instead.

The Winchesters have had a lot of those recently... strange bedfellows and such. And I guess now with Chuck, they may have even more strange friends and allies.

Yes, strange bedfellows. I think it starts out as a unwilling, but necessary alliance against the common enemy. But, evolves quite naturally into respect, then friendship.

Awww poor Chuck. Poor maligned Chuck, having to represent evil writters.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Shannonsspirit

[Jynnan tonnix]

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think because Sam said "I killed her" in response to Eileen saying "You miss her?",  his grief isn't really grief at all. It's guilt and he's upset because he feels guilty. He also said "Does it seem like your life is a big cosmic joke" to the deaf girl killed by an unseen and unheard hell hound is that he was more upset about how Rowena death affected him more than Rowena being dead. I did appreciate that Eileen's response was Showing him she's a fucking ghost who was in hell instead of Heaven. I thought Shoshanna played it like 'Really, Sam?'.

I really want to know if Jensen ad libbed the line from Dean about "I didn't do a damn thing ' I legit thought that's some grade A snark about Dean in this episode. I'm sure it's wishful thinking on my part LOL.

I'm thinking it's endgame Saileen, or they kill her again  just to torment Sam

  Reveal spoiler

Why didn't Cas smite the djinn instead of stabbing him? Is he losing his power again? Could this point towards an end game human!Hunter!Cas? That would certainly prevent the Empty from claiming him since he would be human. Hmm

Overall boring. And was with that shitty music during the big fight scene? Is Chuck now the music director? It was some kind of terribad ripoff of Miami Vice. God's it loud, terrible and distracting.

Dean's pajamas under his Dead Guy robe were a delight

When Mr. Jyn wears pajamas of that sort of style, they always gape - big time - at the fly. I will admit to reflexively checking Dean's. Alas, no.

[SueB]

15 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Rowena writing her own spells should not gave been a surprise. She talked about that all the time. I blame the writers rather than Sam not listening.

It was probably the first time Cas has been a competent FBI agent.  That was 50 shades of righteous vengeance with a djinn standing in for Chuck as far as the character is concerned and what you said as far as the writers are concerned.

Didn't Cas go check on her?

I didn’t mean to imply he was surprised she wrote down her own spells, more that he was delighted that she had the equivalent of witch’s journals akin to hunter’s journals.  He clearly admires Rowena for finding her own sense of control.  And just like reading his father’s journal, I suspect he will want to read her journals for both knowledge and to stay connected.  IMO he admires her for the way she changed to be a force for good and morns her loss for more than just his role in it.  

[Shannonsspirit]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

I didn’t mean to imply he was surprised she wrote down her own spells, more that he was delighted that she had the equivalent of witch’s journals akin to hunter’s journals.  He clearly admires Rowena for finding her own sense of control.  And just like reading his father’s journal, I suspect he will want to read her journals for both knowledge and to stay connected.  IMO he admires her for the way she changed to be a force for good and morns her loss for more than just his role in it.  

The layers within the characters and how they relate to the world and each other has always been the richest part of Supernatural.

[Jediknight]

14 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Oh I think he's felt guilty since he killed her. Not just this time.

No doubt, he's felt the guilt since he killed her.  He knows there's no coming back for her, since that was her permanent death.  They couldn't buck destiny in that case.

All of it weighs on Sam.  Rowena had become part of the family.  She warded/hexed her apartment against everybody except herself, Sam, and Dean that we know of.  To be the one that kills her, just adds more weight to the grief that he'd feel for the death of a family member.  She hadn't turned evil, she wasn't trying to kill the Winchesters, it wasn't done in self defense.

His praise of Rowena in this episode felt believable.  He also wants to make sure that he does her proud, and her death won't be for nothing.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Jediknight

[gonzosgirrl]

I'm probably going to have a doh! moment here, but does anyone know the meaning/reference for the episode title? I got nothing.

[Casseiopeia]

22 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm probably going to have a doh! moment here, but does anyone know the meaning/reference for the episode title? I got nothing.

There have been a few references to gold so far. Not sure what it means.

[Casseiopeia]

35 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm probably going to have a doh! moment here, but does anyone know the meaning/reference for the episode title? I got nothing.

Okay here is one possible definition 

In emergency/trauma medicine, the golden hour (also known as golden time) refers to a time period lasting for one hour following traumatic injury. During this time it is most likely that prompt medical treatment will prevent death.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

Okay here is one possible definition 

In emergency/trauma medicine, the golden hour (also known as golden time) refers to a time period lasting for one hour following traumatic injury. During this time it is most likely that prompt medical treatment will prevent death.

Ah okay, that could be it. That's a mightly long hour for Eileen though. LOL!

[ahrtee]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm probably going to have a doh! moment here, but does anyone know the meaning/reference for the episode title? I got nothing.

How about "stay gold" from The Outsiders (with the Hinton connection)?  Maybe this is their golden time before everything hits the fan. They did get a win,  after all. 

TBH, aside from a few titles that were way too on the nose (Jack in the Box, anyone?) most of the recent titles have been obscure at best, if not completely baffling.

Edited November 23, 2019 by ahrtee
site ate the end of my sentence.

[Bergamot]

On 11/22/2019 at 12:00 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree about Sam's guilt in this case, but he's been red-eyed and moping since her demise, and gets all misty over her spell books, etc. It's dumb.

Yeah, I have to say that it does seem a bit much. Dean had a even longer, more intense, although very strange and conflicted relationship with Crowley, but I would have thought it weird if he had been weepy and depressed over him when Crowley sacrificed himself. And it's not like it was for Sam when Charlie died, for example. Or it doesn't seem to me that it should be, from what we saw happen on the show. I feel as if his reaction might be more like a set up for Future Plot Points in episodes to follow, which is why is seems, let's say,  un-organic to me.

Rowena was actually a more interesting and complicated character, I think, than she is currently being viewed. It's like all her sharp edges have been sanded down and smoothed away so that she can be an acceptable object of grief for Sam. It is interesting now to think of how we first met her, when she had nailed hotel workers to the ceiling and was happily relaxing under their dead bodies. And how she then murdered a waiter in a horrible fashion for interfering with her lunch at a nice restaurant, and sacrificed as bait to save herself one of the women she had recruited.

But then, Rowena never pretended to be anything other than what she was. She was not selfless or loving; she always acted to please and protect herself, and did whatever she needed to do to gain and keep power. Specifically, magical power. It was all she really cared about, all that was important to her: being a powerful witch. Rowena made it absolutely clear that she served magic above all else. As she told Sam at the end,  "I don't care about anything enough to take my own life. Not you, your brother... not even the world. But I believe in prophecy. I believe in magic."

That's why I like the speculation that Rowena could someday end up as the Queen of Hell. I think it does the character a disservice to have her set on a pedestal by the show as a redeemed soul who nobly sacrificed herself to save the world after bonding with Sam. I just don't like the idea of her death serving as an inspiration for Sam -- it sounds too much like "fridging" her. I would rather think of her as someone who in the end remained true to what she served, which (as she once told Sam) was Magic, not God. And someone who would maybe find a witchy way to come back, because Rowena always did!

Edited November 23, 2019 by Bergamot

[Aeryn13]

4 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yeah, I have to say that it does seem a bit much. Dean had a even longer, more intense, although very strange and conflicted relationship with Crowley, but I would have thought it weird if he had been weepy and depressed over him when Crowley sacrificed himself. It's not like it was for Sam when Charlie died, for example. Or it doesn't seem to me that it should be, from what we saw happen on the show. I feel as if his reaction might be more like a set up for Future Plot Points in episodes to follow, which is why is seems, let's say,  un-organic to me.

Rowena was actually a more interesting and complicated character, I think, than she is currently being viewed. It's like all her sharp edges have been sanded down and smoothed away so that she can be an acceptable object of grief for Sam. It is interesting now to think of how we first met her, when she had nailed hotel workers to the ceiling and was happily relaxing under their dead bodies. And how she then murdered a waiter in a horrible fashion for interfering with her lunch at a nice restaurant, and sacrificed as bait to save herself one of the women she had recruited.

But then, Rowena never pretended to be anything other than what she was. She was not selfless or loving; she always acted to please and protect herself, and did whatever she needed to do to gain and keep power. Specifically, magical power. It was all she really cared about, all that was important to her: being a powerful witch. Rowena made it absolutely clear that she served magic above all else. As she told Sam at the end,  "I don't care about anything enough to take my own life. Not you, your brother... not even the world. But I believe in prophecy. I believe in magic."

That's why I like the speculation that Rowena could someday end up as the Queen of Hell. I think it does the character a disservice to have her set on a pedestal by the show as a redeemed soul who nobly sacrificed herself to save the world after bonding with Sam. I just don't like the idea of her death serving as an inspiration for Sam -- it sounds too much like "fridging" her. I would rather think of her as someone who in the end remained true to what she served, which (as she once told Sam) was Magic, not God. And someone who would maybe find a witchy way to come back, because Rowena always did!

Rowena herself in episode 3 said she wouldn`t sacrifice for Sam or the world, that`s just not her, but she believes in magic and destiny. If Death hadn`t told her about her death-prophecy, Rowena would have flat-out not done it. 

I get not speaking ill of the dead but yeah, that super rose-colored lenses the show is now viewing Rowena through kinda takes away from her.     

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I just don't like the idea of her death serving as an inspiration for Sam -- it sounds too much like "fridging" her. I would rather think of her as someone who in the end remained true to what she served, which (as she once told Sam) was Magic, not God. And someone who would maybe find a witchy way to come back, because Rowena always did

I think there is also room for a QOH!Rowena to recruit Sam into being her Boy-ish King of Hell.  I actually would find that a more reasonable thing than Sam being all weepy eyed over Rowena, other than Sam secretly being in love with her from the get go.  Maybe that is just the chemistry between Jared and Ruth...? 

[Castiels Cat]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think there is also room for a QOH!Rowena to recruit Sam into being her Boy-ish King of Hell.  I actually would find that a more reasonable thing than Sam being all weepy eyed over Rowena, other than Sam secretly being in love with her from the get go.  Maybe that is just the chemistry between Jared and Ruth...? 

He broke the rules for her in Regarding Dean... and whenever Dean showed compassion for his  own supernatural friendships Sam would side eye in similar circumstances...Sam never trusted Crowley who had a longer history of helping in the end I think and honestly always aided Dean after DDean. And Benny was nothing but a faithful friend who asked nothing of Dean but a helping hand when he was literally at death's door.

In regarding Dean it was commiseration overcame shared fear of Lucifer which was real even if she played him a little. IDK.

When she was first introduced she had the hots for Dean even in the midst of trying to kill him.

I think she did do that spell to help but probably also hoped it could eventually work out for her and for Fergus too. I don't know why she would be thinking about Sam per se. She was making eyes at Ketch in the episode before he died and he is most likely down there.

25 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yeah, I have to say that it does seem a bit much. Dean had a even longer, more intense, although very strange and conflicted relationship with Crowley, but I would have thought it weird if he had been weepy and depressed over him when Crowley sacrificed himself. It's not like it was for Sam when Charlie died, for example. Or it doesn't seem to me that it should be, from what we saw happen on the show. I feel as if his reaction might be more like a set up for Future Plot Points in episodes to follow, which is why is seems, let's say,  un-organic to me.

Rowena was actually a more interesting and complicated character, I think, than she is currently being viewed. It's like all her sharp edges have been sanded down and smoothed away so that she can be an acceptable object of grief for Sam. It is interesting now to think of how we first met her, when she had nailed hotel workers to the ceiling and was happily relaxing under their dead bodies. And how she then murdered a waiter in a horrible fashion for interfering with her lunch at a nice restaurant, and sacrificed as bait to save herself one of the women she had recruited.

But then, Rowena never pretended to be anything other than what she was. She was not selfless or loving; she always acted to please and protect herself, and did whatever she needed to do to gain and keep power. Specifically, magical power. It was all she really cared about, all that was important to her: being a powerful witch. Rowena made it absolutely clear that she served magic above all else. As she told Sam at the end,  "I don't care about anything enough to take my own life. Not you, your brother... not even the world. But I believe in prophecy. I believe in magic."

That's why I like the speculation that Rowena could someday end up as the Queen of Hell. I think it does the character a disservice to have her set on a pedestal by the show as a redeemed soul who nobly sacrificed herself to save the world after bonding with Sam. I just don't like the idea of her death serving as an inspiration for Sam -- it sounds too much like "fridging" her. I would rather think of her as someone who in the end remained true to what she served, which (as she once told Sam) was Magic, not God. And someone who would maybe find a witchy way to come back, because Rowena always did!

Dean accorded Crowley the respect he deserved as part of the team. Without his sacrifice the plan had no chance of working. 

[Castiels Cat]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

How about "stay gold" from The Outsiders (with the Hinton connection)?  Maybe this is their golden time before everything hits the fan. They did get a win,  after all. 

TBH, aside from a few titles that were way too on the nose (Jack in the Box, anyone?) most of the recent titles have been obscure at best, if not completely baffling.

I dread Galaxy Brain which has to refer to their shining star... it's episode 12. Meh.

[Castiels Cat]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

I didn’t mean to imply he was surprised she wrote down her own spells, more that he was delighted that she had the equivalent of witch’s journals akin to hunter’s journals.  He clearly admires Rowena for finding her own sense of control.  And just like reading his father’s journal, I suspect he will want to read her journals for both knowledge and to stay connected.  IMO he admires her for the way she changed to be a force for good and morns her loss for more than just his role in it.  

This is exactly what a grimoire is. I will just chalk it up to the writers attempting to show that Sam is still emotional. Of course perhaps maybe they do not know what a grimoire is... witches write down their spells. Duh.

The journals are nice historic documents. The fact that she wrote down her spells should be no surprise. The BotD is exactly one watch's spells. 

[AnimeMania]

Hey, I need me some of that Cup O'Woman Soup. Just open the packet and pour the contents into a bathtub full of hot water. 

[catrox14]

23 minutes ago, AnimeMania said:

Hey, I need me some of that Cup O'Woman Soup. Just open the packet and pour the contents into a bathtub full of hot water. 

I'm trying to figure out why she had all her clothes on and then suddenly corporealized nude. I presume she got the hunters funeral fully clothed, no?  the next time Dean dies, I want him to be brought back in the buff. It's only fair!

[bettername2come]

My love of Eileen is disproportionate to the amount of love I feel for the episodes she appears in. But she's the only love interest of Sam's - if you can even call her that considering nothing's ever actually happened in that regard - since Jess that I've loved. I am on this train. I like that we had one character I care about get resurrected on this farewell tour. And I'm glad the Blue Fairy from Once Upon a Time got a paycheck.

Glad to see Castiel. Guess with God injured and pissed at him, the angelic powers are running low. I enjoy seeing Castiel play FBI. This is they best he's ever done at it. 

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm trying to figure out why she had all her clothes on and then suddenly corporealized nude. I presume she got the hunters funeral fully clothed, no?  the next time Dean dies, I want him to be brought back in the buff. It's only fair!

Sorry, it'll only work if they build him a body from scratch. Otherwise his designated three layers rise from the ashes with him. 

[Castiels Cat]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm trying to figure out why she had all her clothes on and then suddenly corporealized nude. I presume she got the hunters funeral fully clothed, no?  the next time Dean dies, I want him to be brought back in the buff. It's only fair!

That made sense to me after the momentary .. huh. The spell was only to bring back the person after all not her outfit.

Yes... I cannot wait for Dean to die in the finale and Benny to use that spell to bring back his buddy. 

We know Sam will have two dogs and be trying to fix air conditioners with one hand and signing with the other. . .

[BoxManLocke]

Watched the episode again for some reason.

Castiel just happens to stumble upon a case ? I hate it when that happens.

At first watch I actually overerestimated him and thought he'd been in cover this whole time, waiting for more info.

Instead it turns out his idea of "moving on" was fishing and being useless for weeks ?

Everything is just so half-assed this season.

[mertensia]

On 11/22/2019 at 6:46 AM, Ray Adverb said:

Kind of a bummer that even after dying, that girl is still deaf. 

Since the actress is deaf it seems tacky beyond all reason to bring her character back no longer being deaf.

Loved that effect of ghost Eileen sinking into the water since it didn't look like water.

I don't mind Dean having hit beam end. It's so much more realistic.

[Shannonsspirit]

18 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Since the actress is deaf it seems tacky beyond all reason to bring her character back no longer being deaf.

Loved that effect of ghost Eileen sinking into the water since it didn't look like water.

I don't mind Dean having hit beam end. It's so much more realistic.

I love everything you said.

[Aeryn13]

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

Since the actress is deaf it seems tacky beyond all reason to bring her character back no longer being deaf.

I agree, it would have an undercurrent of "hey, we fixed you so you are no longer damaged goods" instead of "nothing wrong with you beyond being dead".   

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I agree, it would have an undercurrent of "hey, we fixed you so you are no longer damaged goods" instead of "nothing wrong with you beyond being dead". 

I think so too. And I say this with hesitation, since I am not deaf and have no family or friends who are, so what do I know, but I can see how a deaf person would not see it as being "defective", but just as part of who they are.

[Aeryn13]

You know since the head witch told them the spell had a strict one-time-use policy - not necessarily a one-person-use - why not invite Kevin, get a big enough bathtub, throw a large amount of potpourie in and have them both get in the tub? IMO that would still have counted as a loophole.

[juppschmitz]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

You know since the head witch told them the spell had a strict one-time-use policy - not necessarily a one-person-use - why not invite Kevin, get a big enough bathtub, throw a large amount of potpourie in and have them both get in the tub? IMO that would still have counted as a loophole.

Yeah, that could have happened before Dabb, when the actual heroes of the show used to be smart and competent.

[Bali]

19 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

You know since the head witch told them the spell had a strict one-time-use policy - not necessarily a one-person-use - why not invite Kevin, get a big enough bathtub, throw a large amount of potpourie in and have them both get in the tub? IMO that would still have counted as a loophole.

I'm still trying to figure out why they assume the head witch isn't a liar. Because witches are suddenly upstanding citizens now?

On 11/22/2019 at 5:34 PM, Castiels Cat said:

Canon has been rewritten since the nepotism duo became staff... Does rogue reapers or reapers are now Angels ring any bells... and the list of their atrocities grew with each episode they wrote and the behind the scenes power they wielded. As if marriage to the EP wasn't enough.

Don't forget that these writers are proud to have been voted #2 worst villains on the CW.

They take pride in ruining the show.

We don't have canon anymore. We now have water pistols.

[Ray Adverb]

On 11/24/2019 at 5:47 AM, mertensia said:

Since the actress is deaf it seems tacky beyond all reason to bring her character back no longer being deaf.

Loved that effect of ghost Eileen sinking into the water since it didn't look like water.

I don't mind Dean having hit beam end. It's so much more realistic.

I knew that Shoshanna Stern was really deaf.  I didn't think of it as tacky; just impossible from a practical standpoint.

But in-universe, it seems like a bummer.  But being sent to Hell just because a hellbeast killed you is even more unfair.

[gonzosgirrl]

55 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

Yeah, that could have happened before Dabb, when the actual heroes of the show used to be smart and competent.

Wrong thread. Moved to All Episodes.

Edited November 25, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, Ray Adverb said:

I knew that Shoshanna Stern was really deaf.  I didn't think of it as tacky; just impossible from a practical standpoint.

But in-universe, it seems like a bummer.  But being sent to Hell just because a hellbeast killed you is even more unfair.

I agree with you. I understand why 'curing' a deaf person would be unacceptable on the whole. But in show, Eileen was not born deaf, her hearing was taken from her as a result of the Banshee's scream, so having it restored by this supernatural resurrection would have been fitting. 

[Aeryn13]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I agree with you. I understand why 'curing' a deaf person would be unacceptable on the whole. But in show, Eileen was not born deaf, her hearing was taken from her as a result of the Banshee's scream, so having it restored by this supernatural resurrection would have been fitting. 

I thought she survived the Banshee as a baby because she was deaf?