statsgirl

Arrow is more like a tragic opera, Oliver burdened like Seigfried, or something more modern by Samuel Barber. (I was traumatized by Vanessa this summer.) Thanks, but no thanks. Although I'd really like to hear Barrowman, Haynes, Rickards and even Amell sing.

I've been hearing "Marcia, Marcia, Marcia" in my head for a long time now. Yet another island isn't going to change things unless they change Laurel's personality. What is it they say about doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, AK and MG? BunsenBurner, that was a great comparison. Is there a thread that covers talking about characters other than in relationship?

I think they're a lot more complaisant about Arrow now. It's almost sure to get a season 4 pick-up so they don't have to try as hard any more, hence the more spoilers. It's an easy way to get people to watch whereas tiny hints with mystery is more work. The Flash is the show they're putting their efforts into now, plus Berlanti's Mysteries of Laura and putting together a Supergirl show for his DC empire. I also think that AK focusing on The Flash and Belanti on all his projects has left Marc Guggenheim as the one really in charge of Arrow and for overall management, I suspect he's the weakest of the three. For whatever reason, the storylines on Arrow this season have had more holes than every before (it's the Swiss cheese season), Oliver has gone back to being douchey and Felicity and Diggles are being written OOC (just look at the debates as to whether there is justification for Felicity being Ray's prime cheerleader of she's just been blinkered), the much pulbicized Thea/Malcolm story line has been missing for 5 of the 7 episodes, and Who Killed Sara? is one of the worst written mysteries on TV. And then there's Laurel being made Black Canary which I can't see being a plus overall for the show. (Either she's great in the job, in which case a significant' part of the audience rolls their eyes, or she's stumbling, which wouldn't please her fans and is an annoyance for those who aren't.) Even Stephen Amell, who is the show's biggest booster, seems to be discouraged by the audience's reaction and the questions.

replying in Slings and Arrows thread

I understand what Felicity sees in Ray. He's got Oliver's desire to make Starling a better place, he's got her own exuberance and not knowing where the boundaries are, and he seems like a pretty good boss, giving her a position at her worth and time off when she needs it. Also, he's not bad to look at. Or pretty much what apinknightmare said. But..... it's been badly done and too Pretty Woman for me to even enjoy the storyline much less take it seriously. And the speech at dinner felt like something from a Mel Brooks movie. They're trying to get us to accept Ray by having Felicity be his cheerleader and then they want to play with the idea that he's really sinister with that suit and the dwarf star stuff. But they can't play it both ways. Either we take Felicity's speech at face value, or we look at the other stuff and think that Felicity is being played. (That's a big problem with this season, that all of Oliver, Felicity and Diggle are acting stupid to drive the plot.) Laurel didn't question it so much as assume that Tommy's only purpose was to get into her pants, even though he had been there before. Felicity doesn't think she's worth that kind of extravagance and that the man wouldn't do it just for sex with her ... which leads into its own kind of problem in this episode. Agreed that she would not change her moral beliefs, but she's also not the kind of person who would expect these kinds of presents. Even more so because growing up in Vegas, Donna would have taught her that that kind of gift comes with strings attached. Maybe Felicity did think that it was the same thing as Oliver getting her a dress for the Dodger's auction. He wanted her to look good, so he provided the dress. And in Ray's case, a fortune in diamonds. So that leaves us with the options that either Felicity is shallow because an expensive dress and necklace leaves her panting for dressing up and not asking the questions of Ray that she should be (like why did he buy a dress for her specifically when there were a hundred other women who he could have gone to the dinner with), or she's become stupid and doesn't question Ray's actions. Frankly, neither possibility thrills me. I'd be shocked if she had to give the dress back at the end of the night. That was a gift. There are bonuses, and there are bonuses. If he gave her $2500 of tech as a thank you, I'd still think it was overkill and inappropriate. But a $2500 dress? I wish Moira could have a talk with Felicity on trust and boundaries and how men aren't always what you think they are. And so are we, it looks like.

The first set of episodes with the flashing neon triangles lost a lot of my love for this show, and now, even though this episode was better, I still don't really care any more. I thought the Dawn/sperm plot was awful, even if I did end up feeling sorry for Dawn. (Note: yes, get an egg donation. It will be in better shape than yours.) Other than that, the plots were interesting, except for the guy who kept interrupting Charlie, but I don't care about these people any more. The new shrink is super annoying, and Maggie is even more annoying around him. Nice to see Robert Joy though.

I'm going to miss the show. I liked the characters, it was different than the usual cops and bad guys and of the shows currently on TV, this was the best at getting the medicine right. Netflix picked up Longmire; I wish someone would do the same with this show because I like it a whole lot more than Longmire.

It broke my heart the way other fics don't. Very well done.

I think he gave his blessing to Tommy and Laurel it was more in "I have bigger things to worry about than relationships; go make each other happy." With Felicity, it would be more like "I love you but I can't give you what you want and now that I may never come back, I want you to be able to find happiness." But I'd really rather they didn't go there at all. But given MG's thinking and his multiple hankie spoiler, I really doubt it's going to be mutual I love you's and 'see you when you get back'. I know. They've written themselves into such a hole with Laurel. Either they change her personality or she's never going to make superhero status. I guess she has to have a series of islands because it never sticks. And why should it because, as John Campea said, the problem is Laurel's personality. I think she doesn't tell them but suits up and beats up something instead. If she told them, Quentin at least would be / should be angry, and they're going to need him to be on her side in the upcoming four part trilogy. Totally. Even to the producers loving her so much she never has to pay the consequences for her actions. While I'm all in favor of turning the knife in Laurel's gut, I'd rather it were off-screen so I can spend more time with Diggle and Felicity.

No, I don't think we have any confirmation that Felicity actually start to date Ray, and I really hope she doesn't. It's just the assumption for the "how is Guggenheim going to keep Oliver and Felicity apart next?" step.

I was thinking about what meets the criteria of a scene between Oliver and Felicity that the audience will need big box of tissues for; that Felicity knows "where Oliver is and where he isn't"; and that ends with Felicity dating Ray Palmer. Having Oliver leaving and telling Felicity before he leaves that he knows she wants a relationship (Diggle's weird wording of 'Felicity doesn't want to be alone') and that she deserves one and since he can't give it to her, she should have it with Ray because he'll treat her well. I will totally hate it as even more cheesy than Oliver seeing the kiss, but Oliver is that kind of idiot and MG would probably be thinking it's a brilliant twist to string out the agony I think the only reason that's in there is because the comic book boys, AK and MG and Geoff Johns, like arguing about it amongst themselves. Yes, I think so. But usually the Canadian promos are about the fights and hardly ever about Felicity. Even the Secret Origins promo only had a brief moment of Felicity saying that she wrote the program five years earlier and the rest was Arrow and Arsenal fighting.

It's interesting, the Canadian promo hardly ever shows Felicity and never Olicity. But if Cisco is saying "I'll always remember this" in response to a shirtless Felicity, it's nice to see Caitlin running to get something to cover her up. Solidarity among sister nerds.

I think Felicity is going to try to move on but you don't stop loving someone like that. Ray may do the salmon ladder and he may have the billionaire CEO stuff down pat, but he's not Oliver. When the writers do the next stall to keep Oliver and Felicity apart (and you know they will), I want Oliver to tell Felicity that even though he feels he can't be with her now because reasons, I want him to tell Felicity that he when he saw her with Lyla's baby, he wanted a life like that with her. That he has his own silent dreams (as she said to Barry) and they're of her. Tie together all the little pieces the writers have been dangling in front of us. Just to give me something to go on.

I don't think she was waiting for him until they were flirty flirty during the summer (which we never got to see) and then he asked her out in The Calm. But after he ended it before it began, I think she's been hoping that he would figure things out and decide he really can have a relationship with her. But he repeatedly shuts her down while continuing to dangle maybes (like the "and you know how I feel about her" in Secret Origins) and I think hearing him tell Cupid yet again that he can't be with anyone was the last straw. I wonder if that's why she gave herself permission to enjoy another man kissing her, and went in for more.

Hey, that analogy came from here. I can't remember whose it was (Orion? Ceylon5?) but when I read it, it struck me really nailing it why Felicity needs to stop waiting around for Oliver to get his stuff together and live her own life.

Yes, it is like slapstick and Arrow needs that. EBR seems to do it well, which is why the EPS were all about how wonderful her scenes with BR are (except no, they're not). That was kind of what Ryan McGee was saying in his part of the Ryan and Ryan report, that now that they've realized how popular Felicity is and how good EBR is, they're doing overkill with her. I saw it but I don't remember any Felicity scenes at all. The Canadian promos rarely have Felicity in them; I have to look at the New Zealand ones for that.

I hope Oliver doesn't. That would be overkill and cheapen all the feelings; he'd be thinking Felicity is making out with every guy but him, and then Felicity would have to placate him. I'd rather it be played for laughs between Barry, Felicity, Cisco and Caitlin. Thanks, New Zealand promo makers. You guys always come through.

This season? It wouldn't surprise me at all. Sara's whole death was a Bullshit move. It would be ba enough if it were written to plot. But it's written to plot contrivance, and that's much worse. The sad thing it, it wouldn't have been hard to write properly from the beginning. First, have Sara suddenly go missing rather that most sincerely dead. Then we could see everyone be more cautious while they frantically search for her, along with Nyssa who brought them info on what cases Sara was working on, and Laurel would be worried and scared instead of rage 'roidy. It would also make it acceptable for Quentin to be kept in the dark since he would be worried about what had happened to her and they don't want to tell him until they know for sure. Then produce all the possible suspects and eliminate them one by one instead of one suspect each week until you get to the last. And do the mystery continuously rather than one episode one, two off, so the suspense carries on through the half-season rather than having the audience forget every few weeks what it's supposed to be.

Mo Ryan and Ryan McGee seem to have picked up on that same theme, that "this is beneath this show", and while they're willing to say every show has it's bad episodes, they also spend a lot of time talking about how this season is meandering and pointless. They Oliver has been unpleasant this season and they're writing Felicity badly. They liked the Corto Maltese episode, likening it to first an episode of Strike Back (Strike Force in the rest of the world) and Burn Notice, two shows I really like. They both didn't like The Secret Origins episode because they don't like what the season has done with Felicity, who McGee has a crush on and Mo Ryan likes. (She's said before that Team Arrow is the heart of the show.) I'm happy that McGee said that Felicity being awed by the diamond necklace makes her "shallow" since that's the word I tweeted to MG. Both they and Rober Dougherty pretty much said every criticism we've had of this season. I wonder if the EPs pay attention to reviewers, and if so, who they pay attention to.

Yes, Oliver will think it's Thea and based on that go off, and then the audience learns that it wasn't her after all. Maybe even Sin, if she's deliberately feeding them bad information. Manipulated by Amanda Waller or Ra's. I've seen romance novels better written but I wouldn't put it past MG to mean this very thing. In Unthinkable, she concluded that Oliver was willing to sacrifice Felicity to save his true love, Laurel.

I love Dougherty's analyses, from " Arrow starts another season stumbling with Laurel Lance" to "Arrow Now Rushing to Overcome Ray Palmer's Awkward First Impression" because for me he just nails the problems with the show. Live this one: ... No matter what Stephen Amell says.

At the crossover screening, when asked about whether Caitlin will become Killer Frost, AK said that

That's what worried me when I heard Kreisburg was going to The Flash and leaving Guggenheim in charge of Arrow. I like The Flash, it's good fun and as Matt Roush said, it's the show with no casting mistakes. But somehow Stephen Amell, EBR and David Ramsey got me in my gut with Arrow and I'm having an awful time being able to quit it.

Didn't she even say that in the 103 episodes, that she's normally closed off and Ronnie reached out to her and warmed her up? The foreshadowing that scene was layered on with a trowel.

That is such an important message for girls ... and one that was absent when I was growing up.