statsgirl

Laurel has been in the background but in her own stories which often had nothing to do with the Team Arrow ones and either in opposition to them (when she blamed the Hood for Tommy's death) or taking time away from them (Lance family dinner in ToD). The EPs may argue that that's because she didn't know Oliver's secret but neither did Moira, Walter or Quentin and they've had a lot of fan support. I think that if she had spent a couple of seasons, or even just one, cooking what Oliver catches and providing general ADA office support to Team Arrow and then Sara died, there would have been more positive feeling about her becoming a vigilante. I would have liked to see her giving Team Arrow the info they couldn't get for themselves and helping them. Phoning Felicity at QC to get info on a guy that her office could have got her and that she didn't have any justification to go after was pretty much the opposite of what they needed to do to get her better liked. So basically, while I think KC was miscast, the writing just continues to make things worse, unless they're really trying to get rid of her after this season but that doesn't make any sense either.

Moving my reply to the Slings and Arrows thread because it's about how the EPs should have handled Laurel. (Or maybe it should be in the Laurel thread, I'm not sure any more.)

Forget Oliver, I could use a break from this much sadness! That's another reason why the crossover episodes were so good.

Quentin is such a careful parent, I can't imagine him giving his baton to a child to play with, much less wield properly. As well, if she were able to use a police baton, wouldn't we have seen her seize something and use it baton-like in one of her fight scenes in previous seasons or in Birds of Prey? I can see "something they haven't seen before" and "a really strong segment for the show" referring to Laurel donning the BC costume. We've seen before that what is a strong segment for the show is not necessarily something that makes sense in light of the previous episodes.

KC does a lot of work with Paul Blackthorne working out scenes because they're both method actors and they should both be on the same page. But didn't KC say in an interview that she was so excited at being handed the jacket? I guess that was such a big episode that that scene was one of those times of using what there is on the take.

It's interesting (as in I hate that) they use Barrowman a lot in Laurel heavy-episodes. Both 303 and 304 had a lot of Laurel, and 310 is going to be the start of her Canary arc. No dummies they.

When Oliver showed up at Marcos' place, the bad guys were all tied up and Barry said "I had eight seconds to kill." I wonder if they picked eight seconds on purpose, since that's the amount of time a rodeo rider needs to stay on before the buzzer goes

Barrowman was in eps 3 (Corto Maltese) and 4 (The Magician) and a brief moment at the end of ep 5 when Oliver moved in with Thea. Hopefully they've got plans for him in coming eps, although what's he to do in 310 if Oliver isn't in town? If they're using him heavily in ep 310, wouldn't they start promoting that now to get people to tune in, or would they wait till 309 has played through? (I'm also someone who preferred having spoilers and spoiler discussion in the same thread instead of having to click 2 places now.)

The practical answer is that the EPs don't want to deal with it right now, so they dropped it in to remind people of the plotline for season 4 or whenever. The psychological answer is that when you miss a parent or another loved you, you don't really question someone saying "X loved you" because you miss the other person so much. My mother died a couple of years before Moira but I miss her so much that when someone says "she really loved you", I grab on to that connection and hold tight. It doesn't matter if it's true or not, or if the other person actually knew what the situation was, I just want that validation so much, I don't question it.

It really is surprisingly mature of her for a TV show. Yet another reason to like the character of Felicity. As you said, cross-overs are to bring in new viewers, so what you want to do is give a snapshot of who these characters are and how they relate. In that sense, it's important to concentrate on the long-term relationships, interactions and storylines so people know what to expect if they choose to tune in to the show. On Arrow, the longterm stuff is Diggle being the wise one and the one who is in a stable relationship, Roy is generalized support, and for Oliver and Felicity, it's the "they're so married but not together yet". The stuff with kissing Ray and Oliver's "I can't be with anyone" is just a blip on the long term plan. You don't want to sell the blips because then people will not get what they're expecting if they do decide to tune in. For example, if they played up Oliver's attitude from Cupid that he can't be with anyone and a new viewer expected him to stay single and all his female love interests to move on or die, and they might be pretty disappointed if (when) he does end up with someone.

I think one of the reasons Team Flash is more light-hearted than Team Arrow is that on the Flash, it's only Barry confronting the meta-humans while Cisco and Caitlyn stay safe at Star Labs, except for that one time Felicity talked them into going out into the field to help Barry in Going Rogue. It's easy to be sunny and cheerful when you're never getting hurt, unlike Team Arrow where all of them, even Felicity, have been hurt in the field. At this point, Felicity is the only one working two full-time jobs. Roy has a part-time one with Thea, Diggle's got the baby when the nanny isn't working and Oliver is just vigilanting and working out. I just saw a documentary on how much harder women work now that they have two full time jobs (office and household) and it's funny to see the expectation even on this show.

Given that returning from the dead is practically SOP on this show, especially if you're a guy, I can't imagine what would make Felicity and Diggle not look for Oliver unless he told them that he was going undercover for a few months so don't look for him and blow his cover. The shirtless cowl-wearing is funny, like the huge muscles on both characters. I guess it's the male equivalent of the DD breasts for women. I think they said not this season. All the spoilers are for Laurel but I bet there will be Ray Palmer in there too. The audience wouldn't be suspense wondering what happened to him if they showed him with the LoA. If he's missing missing, viewers will tune in for 3x11 and 3x12 hoping to see him.

I think Malcolm saw Tommy as flawed and not strong like Thea so he's kind of written him off. But more likely it's a plot contrivance since if he went after Laurel, there's no way he wouldn't get her. I've been thinking of Laurel more as one of the mean girls from high school, given how she treated Sara and Felicity, but I think you've done it better. That's exactly who she comes across as. Even her line to Sara when Sara tried to tell her that Oliver wasn't ready to move in with her because he was cheating all over the place "Why can't you be happy for me?" reinforces it. I see the parallel with Neal on OUaT but I don't think Neal was ever meant to be Emma's endgame, just a storytelling ploy and stall for Hook, whereas Laurel was originally (I hope) meant to be Oliver's endgame. I think they can sway fans of the show though. Agreed that for some viewers she's a lost cause (a friend of mine watches the show over the internet the next day and I have to tell her how much Laurel there is in it and that's how she decides whether to watch) but for many people, who watch for the action or the overall storyline, I think they could come over to the Laurel-side if she was a well-written character. For example, if even she was keeping Sara's death a secret from her father, but using every resource she can find in an effort to find Sara's killer, DNA, contacts with the LoA, working closely with Team Arrow, while training with Ted Grant because she knows that when the person is found, she may be in for the fight of her life. Instead, she seems to be more focused on getting vengeance on people who didn't kill her sister and brow-beating everyone from her father to Oliver, while Felicity is the one working three jobs to help find Sara's killer, and was the one to prepare Sara's body for burial. Yeah, that's pretty much what I was thinking. Seeing her spiral down into revenge and fight her way back could actually become a real island for her instead of that bad addiction arc last season. In fact, it's the only island I can think of for her right now, the only real reason for putting on the Canary black leathers because what I'm seeing now is someone who has always wanted other people to behave the way she wants them to and is now getting ready to do it physically too. Even at this point, they could do a better job of writing Laurel so that she becomes a more popular character. The question is, why aren't they doing it? ETA: I was talking to my daughter about why wasn't Laurel actively looking for Sara's killer and she replied "Because Laurel killed her." She meant it in a metaphorical way, that Sara was killed so Laurel could become the Black Canary, but it would be an interesting explanation as to why Laurel doesn't seem to be looking for Sara's killer.

Maybe superspeed jiggled the atoms on the boomerang around as Barry whipped them together, causing them to re-form into a a solid bond. I can buy that easier than the ever-frustrating finances of Oliver and his team. Does he give Felicity an allowance to buy stuff for the Arrow cave? And why is it Felicity's job to outfit it? Do we assume that because she's the girl? Or because she's the only one organized enough? Because she's the only one with a full time job outside the Team. I assume ARGUS took Boomerang back to put in their super secret secure (at least till the season finale) cell. But if they were willing to kill him earlier, and he just killed a whole bunch of their people, why didn't they kill him now? They can't be developing a conscience over this. Inquiring minds want to know.

I"d be in favor of Oliver taking over the LoA and handing it over to Nyssa but I think s3 is too early for that. I'll have to see the punch scene after editing but it looked kind of strange, Laurel running in from the side and punching out a guy who was shooting a gun. I wonder if it's one of the times when she does succeed as her Canary self, or one where she doesn't. Maybe she succeeds and then Quentin gets angry at her for risking her life.

As others have said, I think Barry knows dark things in theory while Oliver knows them in practice. I did like Barry calling Oliver out on the "my mother was murdered in front of me" because while it's true that Oliver wins the competition in terms of awful things that have happened to them. Oliver uses it as a justification to push the light away. It makes him even more psychologically damaged. As Viktor Frankl said, you have no control over what happens to you, all you can control is how you deal with it. I'm hoping Barry will reciprocate when Oliver next visits -- if Wells will let him. Oliver runs his Arrowcave, Wells runs Star Labs. Oliver referred to Sara as "a woman I loved" to Barry. So he loved Sara. I assume he still loves Laurel as a friend at least. He loves Thea as a sibling. He probably loves Diggle and cares for Roy. And we know he's in love with Felicity (at least for this season). For someone who thought he had lost his humanity, he sure loves a lot of people - which makes his self-sacrificing, martyr complex even more BS. I think Barry is better emotionally protected by Joe and Wells than Oliver was. She can't turn him as she did Oliver because he'd just flash away. Finally, I loved how seamlessly both teams were blended together. Barry, Oliver, Cisco, Caitlyn, Diggle, Lyla, Felicity, Roy .... they all seemed like they were one supportive, well-functioning team. Kudos to the writers.

That's a good point and one that's all on the writing -- why is it Felicity who is looking for Sara's killer, and Laurel who is beating up random people, learning to box, and brow-beating her father? (Remember that heart condition, Laurel, that was the reason you couldn't tell him about Sara's death? It's still there.) They've told us often that the problem with writing for Laurel is that she doesn't know Oliver's secret ... well, she's known for almost a year now and they still can't integrate her into the A plot unless the A plot is about her.

Maybe not. The Flash is just more fun to watch, while Arrow has been pretty heavy and depressing, this season especially. On the Flash they smile a lot of the time and it's sunny, as Oliver said.

I think it would have been great to have Sara around to help Laurel in season 3. But Sara was dead at the end of 3x01, which they shot in June, so the decision to kill her must have been made very soon after that interview. If not before and AK was referring to the dynamic of having Laurel in the Arrow cave, which really hasn't happened yet and the dynamic for her and Team Arrow is still the same -- she talks to Oliver and talks at the others. It's all very confusing.

I wonder what Laurel flashbacks they could show. Compared to every other same age character on the show, she had it easy until the Queen's Gambit sank. Pulling Quentin out of bars would have been better shown during her addiction arc than now. It will be bizarre to see Oliver flashbacks when there is no current Oliver present day story to connect them to though. I think it's too early for the Atom to be making a superhero appearance. We don't even know if or why he wants to be a superhero. I'd be okay with Felicity helping him with the tech on his suit though while Oliver's gone.

The Brave and The Bold showed why I have never been able to get with Laurel. The line to Oliver "I heard The Arrow was seen in Central City" could have been played a number of ways. The way KC said it, it sounded like she was scolding Oliver for not getting her approval beforehand, just as her earlier conversation with Quentin sounded like she was telling him he wasn't doing a good enough job as police captain. She reminds me of my grade five teacher who still wore nylons with perfectly straight seams (I have no idea where she got them), and somehow no matter how hard we tried, we just couldn't do well enough to live up to her standards. I think they could have done it more easily in the early parts of this season -- she invites Oliver to Quentin's announcement but we find out she's already told Diggle and Felicity and asked them to keep it a secret to surprise Oliver; when she's in the Arrow cave to go after Sara's killer, she's polite to Diggle and Felicity, in Corto Maltese she asks Felicity for a favor instead of telling her to do it. Most recently, she told Oliver that she's not on his team so he doesn't get to be the boss of her. That was two episodes before the "the Arrow was in Central City" scene. At this point, I can think of two ways Laurel can be incorporated: Diggle, Felicity and Roy feel sorry for her so they let her join their fight, or she walks in and joins and there's no build-up or explanation as to how or why she's there. I think the second is more likely since the EPs don't seem to want to spend time on the relationships between Laurel and anyone in the lair except Oliver.

Since Oliver already feels that he can't have a real family life, I can't imagine why he would want custody of the kid. And if he does get to the point where he thinks he can be Olvier again, why would he give up the possible kids he could have with Felicity to marry this woman for a kid who is already 8? Unless Felicity is in a relationship with Ray at that point and Oliver thinks he can't have her so he marries this woman to provide a father for the kid. And then it's going to feel like Castle seasons 3 and 4 again, the two seasons I skipped because they were both being so stupid.

I cared about Thea a lot more over the summer when I thought they were going to do a twisted storyline with her and Malcolm. But they've only done 2 episodes out of 9 with anything of them on it and I didn't enjoy The Magician. If Thea is going to be relegated to being a plot contrivance and kissing the sleazy DJ, I'd rather the show gave me more on Diggle or Felicity or Roy.

It will probably go down in January. Flash watchers will tune in expecting more of the same and they'll get

At this point I'm not expecting more of a reunion moment than a wave across the room, or maybe a hug like they had in Three Ghosts, because this show has a knack of throwing away what should be it's best moments leaving us to fanwank them instead. He said on the ArrowAfterShow that he had 11 days off in a row, not counting weekends, which is the longest time he's ever had off while the show was shooting. This is Diggle and Lyla.... I'm expecting something better than it being held in Big Belly Burger but not a whole lot more upscale than that. Maybe Oliver in a suit and Felicity in a nice dress (although please not the Victoria Beckham). I'm pretty sure that Oliver isn't there just for that reason, because they wanted (as opposed to needed) the time for Laurel's story. But to not have a good suspense arc while he's gone is going to be a waste of storytelling potential. About Oliver's baby mama: Why would she appear in The Flash? Is there some comic connection with her, and they're going to put her in The Flash's comic world instead of Oliver's? Or is it that the Arrow will be visiting Central City again?