Veronica Mars Unpopular Opinions

[mstaken]

This is the place to confess your opinions about the show which, in your experience, have been considered odd or unpopular...while merrily respecting everyone else's, of course :)

 

I'll get us started:

 

1. S2 is my favorite season and, much to my own surprise, much more rewatchable for me than S1. That's probably attributable in part to the UO that...

 

2. I despise Lily Kane, and not even in a fun 'love to hate' way. I just can't stand her, and it's to the point where her death and the degree to which it affected others wasn't as poignant to me as it should have been. Similarly, the Lianne storyline drives me all kinds of crazy to watch.   

 

3. I think Veronica/Wallace's friendship is the best relationship on the entire show, better than even Keith/Veronica, which sometimes tries a little too hard with the cutesy P.I. bantering and occasionally even creeps me out a tad when Veronica seemed a bit more of a wife than daughter. 

 

4. While I totally see why so many feel they have chemistry, I found Veronica/Logan tiresome and depressingly dysfunctional, and would have far preferred that they remain frenemies/uneasy allies rather than becoming romantically involved. 

 

5. I enjoyed Troy Vandergraff beyond the telling of it, and You Think You Know Somebody is one of my three favorite episodes of the entire series. I can't begin to justify it! 

 

6. Veronica is very, very hard for me to like and root for sometimes. 

 

7. Cliff is easily one of my five favorite characters of the entire series. I'm ridiculously excited whenever he pops up on screen. 

 

8. I liked Piz and, while I don't ship Veronica with anyone, I preferred Veronica with Piz to Logan. I didn't care at all about Parker and thought the Logan/Parker relationship was ridiculous. 

 

9. Mac is fine, but not an especially special or memorable character for me. 

 

10. I adored Meg more than is rational. 

 

11. Dick is disgusting and appalling to me, and I hate how they vilified Madison to the nth degree for her comparatively less terrible behavior while making Dick seem like just the innocently goofy comic relief and glossing over his abject awfulness. 

 

....I have more, but I'll mercifully shut myself up for now :) I'll look forward to reading other people's UOs! 

 

[Jediknight]

I'll look forward to reading other people's UOs! 

I hate Logan Echolls.  The guy treated people like crap, handed out GHB, drugged his best friend, organized bum fights, gave away $500,000 of his father's money, torched a community pool, treated Veronica and Duncan like shit after Veronica broke up with him, destroyed evidence in a murder case, jumps to the conclusion that Piz was responsible for the video and sucker punched him, and when his friend started a fire at a hotel, they got out of there without warning anyone or checking to see if everyone was okay.  I'm not rooting for that guy to hook up with Veronica.  Now go ahead and call me a douche, but in the first episode where we meet Aaron, I thought Logan deserved to get smacked by Aaron.  The guy organized bum fights and gave away money that wasn't his, he deserved what Aaron gave him in that episode.

[mstaken]

I'm not rooting for that guy to hook up with Veronica.

 

I agree! And I never, ever bought that fiercely (and often understandably) unforgiving, suspicious and judgmental Veronica, of all people, would forgive Logan for so very much egregious awfulness---let alone actually trust him enough to date him. I would have found it much more believable and interesting if he's remained a frenemy throughout the series. Logan was an ass, but at least he used to be a somewhat compelling character for me...USED to be. Their roller coaster romantic relationship didn't do either character any favors IM(U)O.  

[Syme]

Veronica, of all people, would forgive Logan for so very much egregious awfulness---let alone actually trust him enough to date him.

 

I disagree. She would be bored out of her mind mind with anyone less complex, less driven, & less challenging than Logan.

 

And regardless of their past, Logan was a lock when in S3, he hired that bruiser bodyguard to literally carry her away from a riot. "I don't care" that VM is furious re: his intervention; her safety was too important to him. He had lost Lily, his mother, his father, ...everyone in his life except VM.

[mstaken]

Your opinion is definitely the popular one, Syme! I just can't get on board with them...and I really, truly wanted to :) And, yeah, of all the many, many awful things Logan's done, I agree with the UO that the bum fighting may be the most stomach-turning. Despicable. 

 

Here's another unpopular opinion: I actually think S3 is pretty underrated. It's certainly got its share of flaws, and I agree that Veronica was least root-worthy and accessible in this season, but I also think it has some surprisingly awesome episodes. I don't see it as nearly as drastic a drop in quality from the first two seasons as most do (especially because I see S1 as more flawed and less rewatchable than most other fans do!) I find S3 especially engaging when I merrily fast forward most of the fighting between Logan/Veronica and pretty much anything between Logan/Parker  and Mac/RandomGuyWhoseNameICanNeverRecall.  

[Carrie Ann]

I like S3 too. On rewatch, I actually found a lot of S3 easier to watch than S2. I think they had a lot of kinks to work out moving from a season-long arc format to a multiple arc format, as well as from high school to college. It wasn't perfect, and they made a lot of mistakes, but the end of S3 made me think that they were figuring it out. I think if we'd had a season 4, season 3 wouldn't seem so bad in retrospect.

 

I love Logan and Veronica, but I am Team Veronica above all. They both have flaws, but her misdeeds don't come close to his in my opinion. In some ways, I'm relieved the show didn't go on for much longer, because I did/do ship them, but I don't think they were capable of being in a healthy relationship with each other at that stage in their lives and I would have hated to see Veronica's character ruined just to pull them back together again. They both had a lot of trauma that they never dealt with. Instead, they built their lives around indirectly confronting or running from that pain. On his side, he was reckless and destructive, and needed Veronica to fill every hole in his life and for that reason he was intolerant to her taking risks. On her side, she went after the truth at any cost to herself or others, and she wasn't ready to trust or rely on anyone else. Fundamentally incompatible.

 

We'll see where RT takes them post-movie and Book 1, but from my perspective, I think they'd have a chance now. Hopefully time has healed some of their trauma; Logan's career path has hopefully curbed his destructive and reckless tendencies while also providing him with a greater sense of self and purpose. Veronica is the wild card now. I still don't have a good sense of where she is when it comes to trust or forgiveness, but the fact that

she took baby steps toward Lianne in the book--despite the fact that I hate Lianne and will never forgive her personally--

makes me think she might have done some growing in that area too.

[mstaken]

I love Logan and Veronica, but I am Team Veronica above all. They both have flaws, but her misdeeds don't come close to his in my opinion. In some ways, I'm relieved the show didn't go on for much longer, because I did/do ship them, but I don't think they were capable of being in a healthy relationship with each other at that stage in their lives and I would have hated to see Veronica's character ruined just to pull them back together again. They both had a lot of trauma that they never dealt with. Instead, they built their lives around indirectly confronting or running from that pain. On his side, he was reckless and destructive, and needed Veronica to fill every hole in his life and for that reason he was intolerant to her taking risks. On her side, she went after the truth at any cost to herself or others, and she wasn't ready to trust or rely on anyone else. Fundamentally incompatible. We'll see where RT takes them post-movie and Book 1, but from my perspective, I think they'd have a chance now. Hopefully time has healed some of their trauma; Logan's career path has hopefully curbed his destructive and reckless tendencies while also providing him with a greater sense of self and purpose. .

 

Wow! This may be the most insightful analysis of this couple that I've ever read. I feel like I'll be watching them through a slightly different prism now. Thank you! 

 

 

 

On rewatch, I actually found a lot of S3 easier to watch than S2.

 

Heh---as I've confessed, S2 is my special favorite. It defies rational explanation :) Speaking of S2...I also hold the UO of adoring Gia. I never hated Jackie. And I thought it had even better MotWs than S1. Oh, and I seriously love the widely disliked One Angry Veronica. (That scene where Veronica embraces Wallace, who's made a surprise appearance just before New Year's, is one of my favorite of the series) *tiptoes out the nearest door* 

Edited June 26, 2014 by mstaken

[NoNeinNyet]

Speaking of S2...I also hold the UO of adoring Gia.

 

 

I first fell in love with Krysten Ritter because of Gia/Veronica Mars and have loved her in pretty much everything else I've seen her in. Gia's not perfect but I love her.

[Kalliste]

I CANNOT stand Logan, and that was before I read this thread and thought of him in the context of all the terrible things he did. I was very unhappy with RT pandering to the fans in the movie to the point where it didn't make a huge amount of sense.

 

I might be the only person to think this in the world, and yes it's creepy, but I loved the chemistry between Vinnie and Veronica and secretly wanted something to happen there, regardless of age gap and Veronica's repulsion at Vinnie.

 

I wish there had been more Weevil

 

My favourite Veronica/Logan scene is where Logan breaks up with her in S3, smartest thing Logan ever did... for us anyway.

[scarynikki12]

 

The guy organized bum fights and gave away money that wasn't his, he deserved what Aaron gave him in that episode.

I strongly disagree with this.  The show getting Harry Hamlin was a stroke of genius, and I love everything about his portrayal, but Aaron was an abusive, murderous, ephebophilic prick and no one deserved the violence he unleashed.  One thing the show did very well in season 1 was establish that Logan wasn't a Psychotic Jackass in a vacuum: he learned everything he knew about violence and bullying from his father.  Logan was clearly his favorite target for years as evidenced by his resigned calm at picking out the belt that would be used against him.  Even Trina was't surprised when Aaron assaulted her boyfriend for her black eye (though she did try to stop it), which tells me that she was aware of his violence even if she didn't believe that it had ever been aimed at Logan.  

 

Logan deserved serious punishment for his behavior over the course of the show but not in the form of yet another beating at the hands of his father.  

 

While I hate that it lead to her murder I do love that Lilly took those tapes and got the hell out of the Echolls' house once she found them.  If only she'd shut the door to the recorder!  I don't know if she was truly going to give them to Inside Edition or just blackmail him for them, but I love that she was proactive about it.  On any other show, she'd have run out of there in horror and leave the evidence behind.  Then Veronica would never have figured out Aaron's motive and wouldn't have realized he did it.  She used her brain and took it home with her, ultimately leaving the key to the case for Veronica to find.  Well played.

[Kel Varnsen]

While I hate that it lead to her murder I do love that Lilly took those tapes and got the hell out of the Echolls' house once she found them.  If only she'd shut the door to the recorder!  I don't know if she was truly going to give them to Inside Edition or just blackmail him for them, but I love that she was proactive about it.  On any other show, she'd have run out of there in horror and leave the evidence behind.  Then Veronica would never have figured out Aaron's motive and wouldn't have realized he did it.  She used her brain and took it home with her, ultimately leaving the key to the case for Veronica to find.  Well played.

Looking back and reading your post I kind of wish they had cast someone different as Lily. I mean I have nothing against Amanda Seyfried, but I think the reveal that she was having sex with Aaron would have been a hell of a lot more creepy if they had cast someone who actually looked 16. I looked it up and Seyfried was 19 during season 1 but I think it would have been better if they tried to cast someone who looks younger. I mean I think part of the creepiness of Aaron is lost over the fact that the person he is sleeping with looks significantly older than any high school kid I have ever seen.

[Pogojoco]

I caught up with Veronica Mars on Netflix, so I missed all the Internet talk at the time it was aired, so I didn't expect this to such an unpopular opinion. But, I like Piz. A lot. He's funny and not tormented, and appeals to Veronica's witty side. And his face lights up when he looks at her. It's just nice. 

 

I agree with those who like Veronica and Logan as rivals better than as a couple, and I sort of agree. 

[bettername2come]

But, I like Piz. A lot. He's funny and not tormented, and appeals to Veronica's witty side. And his face lights up when he looks at her. It's just nice.

 

I side with Piz so strongly in the movie breakup. While I don't necessarily like him and Veronica together, he's probably the guy I'd want to date if I stumbled into the Veronica Mars universe (and Deputy Leo wasn't available). 

[amensisterfriend]

Unpopular opinions about Veronica Mars? I've got a slew of these :) 

 

1) First and maybe most unpopular, I definitely prefer the unpopular second season to the very popular first for a bunch of reasons, one of which is... 

2) I really can't stand Lily Kane, and I thought the mystery regarding who killed her was poorly plotted and paced.

3) I thought Veronca and Logan were MUCH better alternating between adversaries and reluctant allies than as a romantic pairing.

4) I liked Piz and thought Veronica seemed a lot happier while she was dating him.

5) I couldn't care less about Parker.

6) Mac is fine, but I was never especially attached to her like pretty much everyone else seems to be.

7) I adore Gia and wish she had played a more major role in the series. 

8) I think a semi-reformed Troy was the best match for Veronica by far and always thought Troy/Veronica had the most romantic chemistry of any of the show's pairings. I adored Leo as well, but, honestly, I think he's too nice for our heroine. 

9) A spinoff featuring Cliff would be one of my favorite things ever. He and Weevil were my two favorite characters. And I still have a fascination with Beaver :) 

10) Dick is abhorrent to the point where I can't find him nearly as amusing and entertaining as we're supposed to. I hate how Madison got all the blame for pretty much everything while Logan and Dick were always given a pass. 

11) I love One Angry Veronica, often cited as one of the series' very worst episodes. That final scene alone (where Wallace shows up unexpectedly at Veronica's door) makes it a 'must watch' for me, but there are actually other things about it that I find interesting, especially after serving on a jury.  

[munchin]

Unpopular opinions about Veronica Mars? I've got a slew of these :) 

9) A spinoff featuring Cliff would be one of my favorite things ever. He and Weevil were my two favorite characters. And I still have a fascination with Beaver :) 

 

11) I love One Angry Veronica, often cited as one of the series' very worst episodes. That final scene alone (where Wallace shows up unexpectedly at Veronica's door) makes it a 'must watch' for me, but there are actually other things about it that I find interesting, especially after serving on a jury.  

 

Nothing unpopular about #9. Cliff was an outrageously solid recurring character. I would've loved to know more about his and Keith's relationship when Keith was sheriff and their relationship would have naturally been more adversarial.

 

11 was a shocker for me. One Angry Veronica is one of my favorite episodes. When I do a rewatch, it's one I always look forward to. What problems do people have with it? Is it too awesome?

[betsyboo]

9) A spinoff featuring Cliff would be one of my favorite things ever. He and Weevil were my two favorite characters. 

 

Seconded!

[Delphi]

I'm in the middle of a rewatch of this, which will probably be put on hold because new shows are coming on but through the rewatch I've come to realize.

1) I hate Logan after season one, he just gets old for me. I can understand season 2 antics but season three is where I'm out. Completely. Because

2) I love Piz. I think he's prefect for Veronica. But that may be because he's the kind of guy I'd want to date.

3) I also think Season three was a very solid one and even enjoy the last few stand alone episodes, like Unamerican Graffiti

4) I loved Bronson and wish he had stayed on.

5) Lilly Kane was awesome. Especially the hallucinations from Duncan and Veronica. Loved every ghostly second of her.

[amensisterfriend]

I love Piz. I think he's prefect for Veronica.

 

I'll out unpopular you there and say admit that I think Veronica would be best matched with the newly, (mostly!) reformed Troy---I just saw so much chemistry and natural connection there. But I'm totally with you on far (far, far, FAR!) preferring Piz to Logan, which puts us in a tiny minority :) I found pretty much everything about the Veronica/Logan pairing exhausting and frustrating and hated the way it affected both individual characters and the overall show. And Veronica/KB really did seem far genuinely happier around Piz to me even though I'm sure we weren't supposed to think that. It reminds me of how on Gilmore Girls I was always in the equally small minority who thought Lorelai/Lauren Graham seemed genuinely happier around Christopher than Luke even though the latter was clearly the show's 'endgame.' 

 

And how's this for unpopular: For some bizarre reason I liked Logan with Hannah----much more than I did with Veronica or Parker. 

 

I absolutely loved Gia and wish she had played the Parker role in S3. (Parker did absolutely nothing for me, though I know many fans liked her a lot!)

 

I love witty, snarky dialogue, mysteries (even moderately lame ones!), ethically ambiguous situations and strong father-daughter relationships, so I'm hoping that now that a lot of time has elapsed (and that I can fast forward through the Logan/Veronica and Duncan/Veronica stuff), I'll fall in love with the show all over again :)   

[Delphi]

Ohh, upping Gia to a regular in season three and replacing Parker would have been sick an interesting move! I love Gia and Krystin Ritter. I think the odd couple angle would have actually been hilarious instead of blah and it would have actually given Veronica something personal to drive her focus in the mystery.

[FurryFury]

I'll out unpopular you there and say admit that I think Veronica would be best matched with the newly, (mostly!) reformed Troy---I just saw so much chemistry and natural connection there. But I'm totally with you on far (far, far, FAR!) preferring Piz to Logan, which puts us in a tiny minority :) I found pretty much everything about the Veronica/Logan pairing exhausting and frustrating and hated the way it affected both individual characters and the overall show. And Veronica/KB really did seem far genuinely happier around Piz to me even though I'm sure we weren't supposed to think that. It reminds me of how on Gilmore Girls I was always in the equally small minority who thought Lorelai/Lauren Graham seemed genuinely happier around Christopher than Luke even though the latter was clearly the show's 'endgame.' 

You know, I get what you're saying about Lorelai and Christopher - I too thought she seemed WAY happier around the latter, at least in the later seasons - but VM isn't GG. It's not about being happy, it's about being interesting and dark and dramatic. It was never a feel-good show with a happy ending. So this is why I rooted for Logan/Veronica - because they were the most interesting romance out there, not because I wanted a happily ever after. If I wanted a functional relationship for Veronica, I'd choose Leo, personally - Piz was way too boring and milquetoast-y.

 

My UO is that I WANTED Logan to be the killer in the movie. Talk about a gut-punch! I do get why RT made them hook up (even if it did feel a bit too fast, even for this shipper). It was supposed to be the swan song, made (at least partly) on the backers' money. It would be too much to have it end badly.Still, it would be truly noir-y if it happened (of course I don't think Logan would kill an innocent woman out of the blue, it would be completely OOC, I meant if he were the killer in general, maybe because of reasons that made some kind of sense for him). 

Edited October 14, 2015 by FurryFury

[betsyboo]

Just finished a much-overdue rewatch of season one and bringing my UO over from the finale thread:

I should maybe go post this in Unpopular Opinions, but this is probably my 5th or 6th full-season rewatch, and I think this is the first time I really thought Veronica was a bitch to Logan. Yes, she runs. Yes, he brought the GHB to the party, Yes, she didn't know he wasn't the one recording in the poolhouse. But she never gave him the benefit of the doubt, ever. Perhaps he didn't deserve it. I'm not sure when I became more of a Logan fan/apologist than Veronica!

 

[Mislav]

Well, I ship Veronica/Wallace...

Veronica/Logan just seemed like a downer at times.

[amensisterfriend]

I kind of loved the idea that Veronica and Wallace could have one of the few close male-female friendships on TV where neither developed romantic feelings for the other, but I do think Wallace brought out the best and most likable sides of Veronica, so by the end I wouldn't have been opposed to a relationship between them. I'd have definitely preferred them to Veronica/Logan, but then I prefer almost anything to Veronica/Logan: Veronica/Semi-reformed Troy, Veronica/Leo and even Veronica/Piz. (And Veronica/Happily Single, of course, but that's rarely done on TV!)  I may even dislike the Veronica/Logan dynamic and how it affected the overall show as much as I dislike Veronica/Duncan, if not more.  

[amensisterfriend]

---I recently started rewatching and am surprising myself with the UO that I'm really liking S3. And part of the reason is that I really like Piz and how Veronica was around him as compared to how she was with Logan. I also like the Dean O'Dell stuff a lot an the creepy criminology class TA. S3 does have a lot of problems, but now that a lot of time has gone by since I last watched it, I'm liking it to a surprising degree! 

[DigitalCount]

(Haven't seen the movie yet, so that's where my answers are coming from. This may change in about a month or so)

 

I really find Veronica to be fundamentally different in S3, in a bad way. There was a time when she seemed hard done by and legitimately striking out against those who had done her harm. In S3 that changed and it felt like she was just a mean-spirited jerk who said and did mean things because she could and knew how to get away with them. (My reaction to S03E20's title: "when did she ever leave?")

 

Dick Casablancas is super under-the-radar perceptive/intelligent from a worldly point of view (not book smart), which actually makes him more abhorrent because he can't hide behind stupidity to justify or excuse his behavior. At the same time it's hard for me to hate Ryan Hansen's portrayal. But there were definitely a couple of times where he understood stuff or responded in a way that was incongruous with the persona he was trying to project.

 

Parker became one of my favorite characters and remained so thereafter when she saved Veronica in Spit and Eggs. For the record, that list includes Wallace, Weevil, Mac and Cyrus as well as Keith on good days.

 

Cassidy as essentially the series' villain was derailing to the point of making me question why I watched the show in the first place. I'll always feel that Kendall made so much more sense as the architect of the bus crash, and even after he explained his reasons it seemed so OTT. Although I guess that in a genderbent noir story, Kendall can't really be the femme fatale.

 

I think it's BS that Weevil and Veronica never ended up together. I did ship Veronica/Wallace and Veronica/Troy at various times, although I think we can stop pairing Aaron Ashmore with damaged, peppy truth-seekers for a while (waiting for him to show up on iZombie). With Wallace, it was mostly the episode where they had her go full-on wife status for his basketball career. But with Weevil it was always there in the background.

[Mislav]

On 5. ožujka 2016. at 10:25 PM, amensisterfriend said:

I kind of loved the idea that Veronica and Wallace could have one of the few close male-female friendships on TV where neither developed romantic feelings for the other, but I do think Wallace brought out the best and most likable sides of Veronica, so by the end I wouldn't have been opposed to a relationship between them. I'd have definitely preferred them to Veronica/Logan, but then I prefer almost anything to Veronica/Logan: Veronica/Semi-reformed Troy, Veronica/Leo and even Veronica/Piz. (And Veronica/Happily Single, of course, but that's rarely done on TV!)  I may even dislike the Veronica/Logan dynamic and how it affected the overall show as much as I dislike Veronica/Duncan, if not more.  

Late reply, I know, but I'm surprised by the lack of VeronicaxWallace fanfics. In every other fandom, detectivexhis/her sidekick/partner/best friend seems to be the most popular ship. HolmesxWatson, BoothxBrennan, BoothxBones, MulderxScully and all that...

[Carrie Ann]

There are probably several reasons for that. Those are all two-lead shows, where the partners are at the center, so it's a different setup than V/W, where Wallace was one of several crime-solving partners for Veronica. Another thing is that much of what is readily available these days was written post-series, so people already knew about the main canon ship. On AO3, for example, about 80% of the works were published post-series finale, and over half of all the VM works are tagged Veronica/Logan. So I think a lot of people just don't bother shipping a non-canon ship at that point, and if you're marathoning the show, you get to V/L pretty quickly. (I do wonder if there was stuff posted on Livejournal while the series was airing that never made it onto the newer platforms.) Also, other than a few questionable moments, I don't personally think V/W had many hints toward romance. But another factor is likely racial--it is just frustratingly true that even canon ships with non-white characters will often get less love than non-canon white/white ships. It's gross.

[CurlyATX]

Yeah! Chiming in late to the party that is probably over now...

1. I liked that they kept Wallace/Veronica platonic.  It isn't a race thing but I loved that she could have one real friend who could see all her sides (selfish too) and still like her without falling for her romantically.

2. I always thought VM and Weevil had insane chemistry and would have at least hooked up.

3. I wish there never was a love triangle for Veronica.   Duncan should have stayed someone she dated.  The "two best friends dating the same girl" is too soapy. 

4. I didn't like Keith and Alicia together.  But I did want him to date someone.

5. I'm not sure how believable Logan/Veronica where in the beginning (he seemed to REALLY hate her).  But JD really has this amazing look when he's making out with KB, it's very loving and sweet.  I think that's his makeout face because he even gets it with Hannah, but not so much with Kendall.

[topanga]

4 hours ago, CurlyATX said:

4. I didn't like Keith and Alicia together.  But I did want him to date someone.

One of my favorite scenes of all time: 

"Alicia and I didn't want to say anything until we knew we were serious."

"Alicia?... You're dating Wallace's MOM?"

[Delphi]

Unpopular opinion,  I enjoyed Keith with harmony.   it might be Just Shoot Me feels but I felt that they had insane chemistry,  and I honestly thought Veronica should have just stayed the fuck out of his business.   It was nothing like the cases they took.  Veronica was just upset,  like she always was,  that her dad was attempting to move on. 

[amensisterfriend]

I thought Keith and Harmony had chemistry too! And the ethical murkiness surrounding their relationship fit in with the show's themes and overall feel. As someone who also idealized my dad sometimes at Veronica's age (and sometimes still does at a much, much older age, haha), I totally got Veronica's reaction to their affair, though. I defend Veronica less than most do, but in that case I got why she was upset even if she technically had no right to be. 

Speaking of S3, I like this season SO much more than I did initially! And I still hold the supreme UO of genuinely liking Piz and Piz/Veronica.  People have made great arguments about how why Veronica and Logan are a better fit given how screwed up/complex they and their worlds can be, and I don't disagree. I'll also readily concede that Veronica and Logan have powerful chemistry. I just find their nonstop drama exhausting to watch and borderline toxic. And she seemed genuinely happy with Piz, though maybe we weren't supposed to see it that way. As far as non-Logan relationships go, I also FAR prefer Pi/Veronica to Duncan/Veronica. 

It's weird, because S2 and S3 have gotten even better for me with rewatch while S1 gets a little worse...? I think it's that I initially declared S1 pretty much my favorite season of any show ever, so there was no way it could continue living up to those lofty standards. Also, I have the UO of finding Lilly Kane supremely annoying and not especially enjoying her friendship with Veronica at all, so that kind of interferes with my ability to love parts of S1. 

[azshadowwalker]

I hated that Veronica was ever paired with Logan and that it was treated as a Great Love Story at the time. He and his buddies were into rape and tormenting people in any way they could. The "poor abused rich boy" shit didn't get him off the hook for that. It was much worse than the Buffy/Spike pairing, because that show at least had the fantasy/horror element. This one had the heroine paired with a guy who was cool with procuring drugs for rape, and told us it was a positive thing in the real world. I stopped reading anything written about the show because of the way it was romanticized.

Veronica was never a "bitch" to that creep. And, yes, I am kind of fine with a rich boy getting his ass kicked after using the desperation of poor people to get his taste for violence satiated. 

[Affogato]

On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 3:57 PM, amensisterfriend said:

 

Speaking of S3, I like this season SO much more than I did initially! And I still hold the supreme UO of genuinely liking Piz and Piz/Veronica.  People have made great arguments about how why Veronica and Logan are a better fit given how screwed up/complex they and their worlds can be, and I don't disagree. I'll also readily concede that Veronica and Logan have powerful chemistry. I just find their nonstop drama exhausting to watch and borderline toxic. And she seemed genuinely happy with Piz, though maybe we weren't supposed to see it that way. 

I think we were supposed to see Veronica as happy with Piz. She says so, to Mac. Also we see she is sexually insecure and Piz is letting her gain confidence before they take that step and he joins her in homework and in going to activities. Logan is, first off, by definition (look around) an emotional vampire and Veronica, like Keith, is a stayer, not a runner like Lianne (an unpopular opinion). I think the show tried to break Logan and Veronica up over and over, showing it was a horrible relationship and that fans and the network wouldn't let it go--which I think is why the ratings fell and the show was eventually cancelled. If Logan  had disappeared to rehab at the end of season two maybe he could have reappeared in season four as a friend. I suspect that is unpopular.

Also: I like Keith but I think he wasn't the best father during the period of the show, but that it was probably okay.

I think the worst thing that happened to veronica was Logan taking the gun away from her on the roof, if he was concerned he should have talked her down. Being raped with her own taser and then essentially having control taken away again was really the worst outcome. I don't know that she would have shot Cassidy anyway, but it was a moment when she could choose between justice and revenge and Logan made it all about him.

And to all, enjoyed reading this unpopular opinion thread. Unpopular opinions are the best.

[marshmallows]

Unpopular Opinions:

1. I loved Gia (btw I had no idea this was an unpopular opinion until I read this forum).  She was hilarious and weird, what's not to like? I also agree with whoever said that she should have been the one that was raped in s3 and dated Logan in s3, it would have made everything much more personal. I would have felt more connected to the story.

2. Idk why there ever even was a team Piz. If anyone could hold a candle to the epicness of LoVe it would have been Leo D'amato.  They missed out on a better triangle. Like, I might would have actually believed that Veronica would have difficulty choosing between Logan and Leo. Piz just wasn't her cup of tea. Not that he isn't a great guy, just not the guy for Veronica.  

3. s2 is my favorite. I thought the MoTW episodes were better than s1's. I also felt like the actors meshed better together. Also the story lines played out better.  And that finale and how they connected everything was epic. I was completely shocked that it was Beaver- and sad because damn it Rob Thomas you made me like this character and then he turned out to be the big bad.

4. I actually enjoyed s3, even though it had its issues, I never thought it was bad television. I still enjoyed the story line. I do wish that they had done it like the previous 2 seasons where they had one underlying story instead of 3 big ones. But, it didn't make me dislike.

[Melgaypet]

My unpopular opinions:

• I wasn't against the Logan/Veronica relationship in principle, especially in season 1 when Logan was at his most compelling as a character, but lord, did it get grating after a while. The constant breakup/makeup cycle may have been realistic - I know plenty of high-school and college relationships that worked that way, even had a few - but that didn't make it good TV.
• Even more grating were the batshit LoVe shippers. Mind, I'm not talking about all of them - if LoVe was your ship, good for you, (even if that particular portmanteau is something I'm sure both halves of that fictional couple would have mocked mercilessly)- I mean the crazy ones. The ones that also tended to be hardcore Logan fans. The ones that thought Logan Echolls was the most adorable little woobie ever created and and never ever wrong and Veronica was a total bitch to him even though they're epic love and Kristen Bell was a bitch too because she failed to fawn over Jason Dohring sufficiently in interviews like how dare she and really shouldn't the show be renamed Logan Echolls? Those shippers. I had to take a break from the TWOP VM forums because they were starting to ruin the show for me.
• I liked Parker a lot and wouldn't have minded seeing more of her.
• I was never bothered by Piz, except for his unfortunate hair.
• In retrospect, Duncan wasn't that bad.
• Leo was the best though.
• Ryan Hansen was hilarious in his role and I get the writers' urge to keep him around, but Dick was a horrible, awful, rapist (in intent if not deed) douchebag and Veronica should never have been even slightly okay with him. Logan may, in theory, have the right to choose his friends, but honestly, if I were Veronica? That friendship would've been a dealbreaker.
• I wanted more Weevil.
• Mercer, in the end, was a more compelling villain than Beaver.

[marshmallows]

On 2/18/2017 at 10:23 PM, Melgaypet said:

My unpopular opinions:

• I wasn't against the Logan/Veronica relationship in principle, especially in season 1 when Logan was at his most compelling as a character, but lord, did it get grating after a while. The constant breakup/makeup cycle may have been realistic - I know plenty of high-school and college relationships that worked that way, even had a few - but that didn't make it good TV.
• Even more grating were the batshit LoVe shippers. Mind, I'm not talking about all of them - if LoVe was your ship, good for you, (even if that particular portmanteau is something I'm sure both halves of that fictional couple would have mocked mercilessly)- I mean the crazy ones. The ones that also tended to be hardcore Logan fans. The ones that thought Logan Echolls was the most adorable little woobie ever created and and never ever wrong and Veronica was a total bitch to him even though they're epic love and Kristen Bell was a bitch too because she failed to fawn over Jason Dohring sufficiently in interviews like how dare she and really shouldn't the show be renamed Logan Echolls? Those shippers. I had to take a break from the TWOP VM forums because they were starting to ruin the show for me.
• I liked Parker a lot and wouldn't have minded seeing more of her.
• I was never bothered by Piz, except for his unfortunate hair.
• In retrospect, Duncan wasn't that bad.
• Leo was the best though.
• Ryan Hansen was hilarious in his role and I get the writers' urge to keep him around, but Dick was a horrible, awful, rapist (in intent if not deed) douchebag and Veronica should never have been even slightly okay with him. Logan may, in theory, have the right to choose his friends, but honestly, if I were Veronica? That friendship would've been a dealbreaker.
• I wanted more Weevil.
• Mercer, in the end, was a more compelling villain than Beaver.

I am a 100% LoVe shipper and I will go down with my ship, but I would never make it to where other people felt uncomfortable. I can't stand when shippers do that. Indeed, Logan did mess up quite often and I can see that. And the whole breaking up and getting back together was exhausting, but definitely realistic considering their age and their personalities, but sometimes I just wanted to shake them and scream "Can you just like be happy for more than two episodes?" 

Omg Piz's hair was very unfortunate. I'm so glad it was fixed by the movie.

Yay, another Leo fan. He may have actually been the best for Veronica, but like I said I will always ship LoVe.

Yeah, Dick was hilarious. I hate that they wrote in the part about him encouraging Beaver to rape Veronica. It soured his character. I mean I think he is an idiot and obsessed with sex, but it just seemed ooc for Dick to encourage something that evil.  If I were Veronica, that friendship would have bothered me much more and been wayyyy more of a deal breaker than him sleeping with Madison when they were broken up. I get it, Madison was a bitch, but it's not like she knew Veronica was raped or that the drink was drugged.

 

I think everyone wanted more Weevil. I know I did.  I actually preferred their friendship to hers and Wallace's (now that's probably an unpopular opinion lol.)

 

And if you don't mind me asking, why do you think Mercer was a more compelling villain? I'm just curious, because I think they were both pretty good villains, but I would probably pick Beaver as being more compelling just because we got more back story on him. 

[topanga]

7 hours ago, marshmallows said:

Yeah, Dick was hilarious. I hate that they wrote in the part about him encouraging Beaver to rape Veronica. It soured his character. I mean I think he is an idiot and obsessed with sex, but it just seemed ooc for Dick to encourage something that evil.  If I were Veronica, that friendship would have bothered me much more and been wayyyy more of a deal breaker than him sleeping with Madison when they were broken up. I get it, Madison was a bitch, but it's not like she knew Veronica was raped or that the drink was drugged.

 

I think everyone wanted more Weevil. I know I did.  I actually preferred their friendship to hers and Wallace's (now that's probably an unpopular opinion lol.)

I agree with your first paragraph. The show overall took a hard stance against rape, so I was surprised they let Dick get away with being the goofy, surfer guy who annoyed Veronica—and, oh  yeah, he encouraged his little brother to rape her when she was unconscious. But we somehow were supposed to forget about that after Season 1.

And, yeah, I loved Weevil, but for me, nothing, absolutely nothing, compares to Veronica's friendship with Wallace. You can argue that maybe Francis Capra was a better actor than Percy. The scenes with Francis and Kristen Bell’s back-and-forth were always engaging--they were smart, evenly-matched peers (and sometimes rivals).  In contrast, Kristen’s scenes with Percy made her seem like the slightly older sister to her not-annoying little brother Wallace.

But Veronica made cookies for Wallace and stuck them in his locker. Wallace claimed the top bunk when their parents started dating. Veronica could shed her tough, badass persona and be her vulnerable self when she was with Wallace. And Wallace was there for Veronica when she finally learned what happened the night she was drugged. Veronica and Wallace were ride-or-die for each other. 

[Melgaypet]

12 hours ago, marshmallows said:

Yeah, Dick was hilarious. I hate that they wrote in the part about him encouraging Beaver to rape Veronica. It soured his character. I mean I think he is an idiot and obsessed with sex, but it just seemed ooc for Dick to encourage something that evil.  If I were Veronica, that friendship would have bothered me much more and been wayyyy more of a deal breaker than him sleeping with Madison when they were broken up. I get it, Madison was a bitch, but it's not like she knew Veronica was raped or that the drink was drugged.

[...]

And if you don't mind me asking, why do you think Mercer was a more compelling villain? I'm just curious, because I think they were both pretty good villains, but I would probably pick Beaver as being more compelling just because we got more back story on him. 

I don't think Dick encouraging Beaver to rape Veronica was OOC at all. In fact, that's exactly who he was at his core to me. After all, he intended to roofie and rape Madison himself, something Veronica Mars the character and Veronica Mars the show both tended to forget, which infuriated me. Madison was a stone bitch, but she didn't deserve that, and Dick wasn't just some harmless goofball.

As for Beaver the villain, those final scenes on the hotel roof ruined it for me. The set up of Beaver as the killer was good, if imperfect, but the reveal felt like freaking Scooby-Doo-meets-Bond villain. I mean, blowing up a plane in the sky? I wasn't supposed to be laughing at that point, right? By contrast, I was very tense during Veronica's final confrontation with Mercer, who felt like a very real and terrifying villain to me.

[marshmallows]

10 hours ago, Melgaypet said:

I don't think Dick encouraging Beaver to rape Veronica was OOC at all. In fact, that's exactly who he was at his core to me. After all, he intended to roofie and rape Madison himself, something Veronica Mars the character and Veronica Mars the show both tended to forget, which infuriated me. Madison was a stone bitch, but she didn't deserve that, and Dick wasn't just some harmless goofball.

As for Beaver the villain, those final scenes on the hotel roof ruined it for me. The set up of Beaver as the killer was good, if imperfect, but the reveal felt like freaking Scooby-Doo-meets-Bond villain. I mean, blowing up a plane in the sky? I wasn't supposed to be laughing at that point, right? By contrast, I was very tense during Veronica's final confrontation with Mercer, who felt like a very real and terrifying villain to me.

 

I'm saying I felt like that entire scenario was OOC for Dick. Like, he is a total horny pig when it comes to women, but nothing about his character strikes me as some evil person out to rape or encourage it. He just seemed like one of the guys from American Pie, you know horny but harmless. I hate that they ruined his character by making him the bad guy in this because I feel guilty every time I laugh at his jokes now.  

 

I can understand that. Blowing up the plane was definitely OTT, but I guess it was the only way we could believe Veronica might shoot him since he apparently killed her father. I don't think she would shoot him over the kids on the bus or even her own rape. I think her father was the trigger. Idk how else they could have made it believable that Beaver killed her father. 

[marshmallows]

15 hours ago, topanga said:

I agree with your first paragraph. The show overall took a hard stance against rape, so I was surprised they let Dick get away with being the goofy, surfer guy who annoyed Veronica—and, oh  yeah, he encouraged his little brother to rape her when she was unconscious. But we somehow were supposed to forget about that after Season 1.

And, yeah, I loved Weevil, but for me, nothing, absolutely nothing, compares to Veronica's friendship with Wallace. You can argue that maybe Francis Capra was a better actor than Percy. The scenes with Francis and Kristen Bell’s back-and-forth were always engaging--they were smart, evenly-matched peers (and sometimes rivals).  In contrast, Kristen’s scenes with Percy made her seem like the slightly older sister to her not-annoying little brother Wallace.

But Veronica made cookies for Wallace and stuck them in his locker. Wallace claimed the top bunk when their parents started dating. Veronica could shed her tough, badass persona and be her vulnerable self when she was with Wallace. And Wallace was there for Veronica when she finally learned what happened the night she was drugged. Veronica and Wallace were ride-or-die for each other. 

 

Oh Veronica's and Wallace's friendship is definitely more solid. I just prefer to watch her and Weevil's interactions. And some of that may be choked up to Francis Capra being a better actor, but I don't think Percy is a bad actor. I love Wallace's and Veronica's friendship, but I just love that weird connection her and Weevil have and how they pretty much always have each other's back while antagonizing each other at the same time.

[Affogato]

On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 10:02 AM, marshmallows said:

Yeah, Dick was hilarious. I hate that they wrote in the part about him encouraging Beaver to rape Veronica. It soured his character. I mean I think he is an idiot and obsessed with sex, but it just seemed ooc for Dick to encourage something that evil.  If I were Veronica, that friendship would have bothered me much more and been wayyyy more of a deal breaker than him sleeping with Madison when they were broken up. I get it, Madison was a bitch, but it's not like she knew Veronica was raped or that the drink was drugged.

Well, Dick did give the roofie to Madison without her knowledge with the intent of making it easier for him to have sex with her, so actually a rapist, even if his plot didn't work. Assault with a deadly weapon can be worse than manslaughter, because of intent.  I think he  honestly thought that Cassidy was gay and so couldn't rape Veronica, so just being a bully.

I think Veronica had other issues with Madison, long term issues, and the lingerie store incident was more illustrative of why the incident bugged her and brought up Veronica's insecurities. Logan would have known that, too. She might have forgiven him for sleeping with Madison, considering they weren't together when it happened.

But

I think that Logan had said 'less pain now versus more pain later' and then got back together with her and when she ran into some more pain it occurred to her that he was right, it was just going to be a cycle of pain.

[marshmallows]

On 2/25/2017 at 9:38 AM, Affogato said:

Well, Dick did give the roofie to Madison without her knowledge with the intent of making it easier for him to have sex with her, so actually a rapist, even if his plot didn't work. Assault with a deadly weapon can be worse than manslaughter, because of intent.  I think he  honestly thought that Cassidy was gay and so couldn't rape Veronica, so just being a bully.

I think Veronica had other issues with Madison, long term issues, and the lingerie store incident was more illustrative of why the incident bugged her and brought up Veronica's insecurities. Logan would have known that, too. She might have forgiven him for sleeping with Madison, considering they weren't together when it happened.

But

I think that Logan had said 'less pain now versus more pain later' and then got back together with her and when she ran into some more pain it occurred to her that he was right, it was just going to be a cycle of pain.

 

Idk if you saw my other post, but I was saying that the entire scenario seemed OOC for Dick to me. They portrayed him more like one of the American Pie guys who was horny and goofy. Not an evil rapist. But, they put it in the plot so therefore I have to accept the fact that Dick is well a dick, it just bothers me that the writers and characters seemed to have forgotten what he did. The writers seriously should have thought that through, if they were going to want Dick to be a regular likable character.

Oh Veronica definitely had deep seeded issues with Madison, but I just don't see how him sleeping with her when they were broken up was the deal breaker, and him being friends with Dick wasn't.  Not that the Madison thing isn't a valid reason, but when you are okay with him being friends with the person who did drug the drink and encouraged his brother to rape you, the Madison thing becomes a bit invalid.  

 

And yes, it definitely ended up with more pain, but I think Veronica's biggest issue with the whole situation is she never really forgave Logan for having the GHB in the first place. She let it go way too quickly in s1. I think this is why she would take little things he would do and blow them out of proportion.  I don't think the rape was his fault, but they really should have talked that out more because ultimately I think this is the real reason why she didn't trust him. Because honestly, he didn't really give her reasons to distrust him to the extent that she did. Well, except for when he wouldn't tell her about how he and Mercer set that hotel on fire. He should have just been honest.  But, for the most part Logan was a loyal boyfriend who truly loved Veronica.

[Chinspinner]

I didn't realise this was still discussed here, but I'll jump in if people don't mind. I don't know if this opinion is popular or unpopular; I'm assuming it is probably the popular opinion: -

Season 1 was superb. 

Season 2 was so-so. 

Season 3 was barely watchable. 

I'm always bemused when people wonder why this show was cancelled, because Season 3 was a mess.

I think part of the problem is that, coming from the UK, it portrayed a deeply unpleasant, divisive and sinister version of college that I don't recognise in my country. There was nothing in the setting that I could relate to - for me and everyone I know, university was fun. It certainly did not involve sororities and fraternities, nor was it a hotbed of gender, race and class tensions. It was fun!  

Many of the sub-plots in Season 3 felt too political and sanctimonious. It was as if all the high-jinx and adventure had been stripped from the show, and replaced with a lot of grand-standing and soap-boxing. TLDR: I didn't enjoy Season 3.     

[azshadowwalker]

On 2/27/2017 at 9:57 AM, marshmallows said:

 

Idk if you saw my other post, but I was saying that the entire scenario seemed OOC for Dick to me. They portrayed him more like one of the American Pie guys who was horny and goofy. Not an evil rapist. But, they put it in the plot so therefore I have to accept the fact that Dick is well a dick, it just bothers me that the writers and characters seemed to have forgotten what he did. The writers seriously should have thought that through, if they were going to want Dick to be a regular likable character.

I never thought he was likable, but I am not sure how the writers wanted me to feel. Thomas was so interested in appealing to a specific segment of the fanbase that characters got lost. I will say that rapists often have friends, significant others, family members who think they are cool, funny, endearing, harmless. And I did feel that Dick's gross objectification was quite harmful. I don't like dudes like that. I think they are assholes. Learning that a guy who thought of women merely as objects for his own satisfaction had raped someone, planned to rape someone, or encouraged someone else to rape wouldn't surprise me. The old saw that rape isn't about sex, it's about power is wrong; it's about both. There are lots of ways to exert power and even assault someone without raping her. The view of the female as, first and foremost, a sex object is why the exertion of power takes a sexual form. All things considered, Dick's character was totally the kind of guy who would rape someone, IMO. 

[marshmallows]

12 hours ago, azshadowwalker said:

I never thought he was likable, but I am not sure how the writers wanted me to feel. Thomas was so interested in appealing to a specific segment of the fanbase that characters got lost. I will say that rapists often have friends, significant others, family members who think they are cool, funny, endearing, harmless. And I did feel that Dick's gross objectification was quite harmful. I don't like dudes like that. I think they are assholes. Learning that a guy who thought of women merely as objects for his own satisfaction had raped someone, planned to rape someone, or encouraged someone else to rape wouldn't surprise me. The old saw that rape isn't about sex, it's about power is wrong; it's about both. There are lots of ways to exert power and even assault someone without raping her. The view of the female as, first and foremost, a sex object is why the exertion of power takes a sexual form. All things considered, Dick's character was totally the kind of guy who would rape someone, IMO. 

I personally felt like the writers wanted me to like Dick. I wouldn't say he was ever super likable- but he was funny comic relief. But, then they added the bit that basically made him an indirect rapist.  I totally understand your opinion. I just have a different one. I think with what they did with the character definitely made him less than some harmless guy who was just horny, but if they had left that part out, he really wouldn't have bothered me as a character. 

[Affogato]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 11:57 AM, marshmallows said:

 

Oh Veronica definitely had deep seeded issues with Madison, but I just don't see how him sleeping with her when they were broken up was the deal breaker, and him being friends with Dick wasn't.  Not that the Madison thing isn't a valid reason, but when you are okay with him being friends with the person who did drug the drink and encouraged his brother to rape you, the Madison thing becomes a bit invalid. 

And yes, it definitely ended up with more pain, but I think Veronica's biggest issue with the whole situation is she never really forgave Logan for having the GHB in the first place. She let it go way too quickly in s1. I think this is why she would take little things he would do and blow them out of proportion.  I don't think the rape was his fault, but they really should have talked that out more because ultimately I think this is the real reason why she didn't trust him. Because honestly, he didn't really give her reasons to distrust him to the extent that she did. Well, except for when he wouldn't tell her about how he and Mercer set that hotel on fire. He should have just been honest.  But, for the most part Logan was a loyal boyfriend who truly loved Veronica.

I keep on losing this message, I'll try one more time.

Logan gives the speech 'less pain now' and breaks up with Veronica over something minor, the voice mail. There is an article on the internet that says that people with separation anxiety will do that, mentions voicemail, maybe the writers got the idea from that. But, separation anxiety, he can't let her go. So, Madison talks to Veronica in the lingerie store. Veronica feels violated by Madison and Logan set her up to be violated by Madison, actually sex with someone when they were broken up likely had nothing to do with it. It hurts Veronica and she thinks 'logan was right, this is going to keep on hurting me and keep on hurting Logan' and she breaks up with Logan.

This has been building up all season, it is earned. He saves her when she's drugged again and he sets a guard on her, without telling her, she is scared to death and then assaulted by the guard as he drags her out of the fight. Logan says 'I would do it again because I don't want to feel the pain of you being hurt.' He didn't do it for her, he did it for himself, and it was horrible for her and violating. She still is trying to figure out how to stay with him.

Logan liked Hannah and Parker, but he can have the perfect relationship because no big need, no emotional investment. So he goes out with Parker. Mac tells Veronica that Logan is 'sweet'. Veronica is roped into going to the party and sees all of Logans friends, sees that Logan is telling them Parker is his girlfriend (remember in witchita linebacker when he didn't tell them Veronica was his girlfriend). She thinks 'Sad, but I was right, he's happier and I'm going to get over it. She hooks up with Piz, and tells mac that it is nice, less painful. She shares activities with Piz, not just sex. Because Logan and Veronica have the kind of relationship where it feels good when it stops, but Logan can't let it go because separation anxiety, so he acts out.

Need is not love. I think they did love and understand each other and genuinely were friends but were completely incompatible as lovers and I think Logan was incapable of love at the time, he never learned about relationships from his parents, had poor judgement about people, ;had lost everyone, had bad coping skills, like drinking and setting things on fire.

Dick. I think Veronica puts up with Dick because she knows he is all Logan has. This can be proof the ghb wasn't the issue. She doesn't forgive Dick but she isn't mean enough to take him away from Logan, and maybe not mean enough to take Logan away from Dick. Shared history.  

[Affogato]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 11:57 AM, marshmallows said:

 

And yes, it definitely ended up with more pain, but I think Veronica's biggest issue with the whole situation is she never really forgave Logan for having the GHB in the first place. She let it go way too quickly in s1. I think this is why she would take little things he would do and blow them out of proportion.  I don't think the rape was his fault, but they really should have talked that out more because ultimately I think this is the real reason why she didn't trust him. Because honestly, he didn't really give her reasons to distrust him to the extent that she did. Well, except for when he wouldn't tell her about how he and Mercer set that hotel on fire. He should have just been honest.  But, for the most part Logan was a loyal boyfriend who truly loved Veronica.

Just wanted to soften my last message a little. I'm sure Logan was loyal and loved Veronica. It is kind of a tragedy, as it happened.

My unpopular opinion is that Veronica was not a bitch to him, she really tried to work on the relationship, forgave him for a lot of things, not acknowledging her, not spending time with her except in bed, hiring a stalker bodyguard without telling her (I can't emphasize enough how horrible I feel that would have been for Veronica, who had just been drugged and attacked in a parking lot.) She has forgiven him for buying the rape drug, , for the salt lick, for the bullying, for the lying, for burning the pool, for Kendall...but she remembers these things, and I think with his soujourn with Madison, well, finding Logan with Kendall is recent and raw.

Max's case made her really think about honesty. Logan had been dishonest all year, protecting himself because he did things but thought she'd be mad at him. She feels that if she learns all these things she won't get mad, it will help with the problems they've had. It is a healthy impulse. Maybe he was right, the Madison thing, she would have been mad but when Madison met her in the lingerie store it might not have been a game changer, Veronica could have dismissed Madison as a bitch. Now the popular opinion is that Veronica was trying to trick him? Anyway, that was Logan's opinion I think.

My impression is that Veronica was a loyal girlfriend who truly loved Logan enough to forgive him for things that she would have forgiven no one else, to actively make herself vulnerable to him. I think Logan was a messed up guy who reflexively lied and expected the worst and didn't really do anything supportive at all for Veronica in the small ways you would actually expect in a relationship (Yes, picked her up when she was unconscious in a parking lot, but that is different and you'd expect he'd do it for anyone, really). I think the popular opinion is she should have realized being a PI stressed him out and stopped, concentrated on school, let him buy her gifts and soothed him. Maybe he needed that, it just wasn't in her character and my unpopular opinion is that wasn't a bad thing. Jason Dohring makes a wonderful guy in a romance, it is likely sad that he hasn't done it more, but Veronica as a character is something almost unique.

[Carrie Ann]

13 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think the popular opinion is she should have realized being a PI stressed him out and stopped, concentrated on school, let him buy her gifts and soothed him.

I won't argue against your opinions on the relationship, but I will say that this statement is not accurate in my experience. I've been around the show fandom since it first aired, and I definitely don't think this is the popular opinion. There are plenty of viewers who think there are things that Veronica and Logan could have each done differently at various points in order to stay in the relationship, but I have personally never seen anyone, let alone the majority of fans, suggest that Veronica should quit being a PI in order to appease Logan. The general tenor of the shipping fandom does tend to be slightly more sympathetic toward Logan than I am, but not to the point that they (in general) blame Veronica for everything or think she should abandon her identity or her own goals in order to give Logan what he wants.

Edited March 18, 2017 by Carrie Ann

[Affogato]

31 minutes ago, Carrie Ann said:

I won't argue against your opinions on the relationship, but I will say that this statement is not accurate in my experience. I've been around the show fandom since it first aired, and I definitely don't think this is the popular opinion. There are plenty of viewers who think there are things that Veronica and Logan could have each done differently at various points in order to stay in the relationship, but I have personally never seen anyone, let alone the majority of fans, suggest that Veronica should quit being a PI in order to appease Logan. The general tenor of the shipping fandom does tend to be slightly more sympathetic toward Logan than I am, but not to the point that they (in general) blame Veronica for everything or think she should abandon her identity or her own goals in order to give Logan what he wants.

OK, sorry, I misspoke... And the PI thing is also canonical, I get that, in the movie/books she is stuck with it. (it seems like a dead end job to me and to Keith). It is more dangerous than being in the fbi or being a policeman and considerably duller, if you think about it.

However the  fan fiction I have dipped into has her change the directory of her life, not because it is what Logan wants, it is what she wants (she is too stressed, or doesn't like rules--I doubt these things, by the way), but it is the thing that allows them to be together. Some of the fan fiction handles it well, some not, as is the way of the world.   It seems to be a pretty common theme, although I haven't read all that much.

It happens to some extent in the book, Logan has this one thing that is working for him, Veronica has a wide range of things (police, lawyer, PI, FBI, barrista....anything, really) she can do and she realizes she will have to adjust her life to what he is doing and what he needs because she can be flexible and he can't. It is her realization at the end of MKAT, she accepts this and they will he together.  (I wonder what happens when he is sent around the world on his shore leaves, but we likely won't see that).

I'm not unsympathetic to Logan, I have some separation issues that the show has allowed me to explore, probably why I'm here. However, I think the interesting thing about the show was the variety of different relationships she had, and I don't think the one she had with Logan was the most important or even the second most important.

[marshmallows]

On 3/17/2017 at 1:44 PM, Affogato said:

I keep on losing this message, I'll try one more time.

Logan gives the speech 'less pain now' and breaks up with Veronica over something minor, the voice mail. There is an article on the internet that says that people with separation anxiety will do that, mentions voicemail, maybe the writers got the idea from that. But, separation anxiety, he can't let her go. So, Madison talks to Veronica in the lingerie store. Veronica feels violated by Madison and Logan set her up to be violated by Madison, actually sex with someone when they were broken up likely had nothing to do with it. It hurts Veronica and she thinks 'logan was right, this is going to keep on hurting me and keep on hurting Logan' and she breaks up with Logan.

This has been building up all season, it is earned. He saves her when she's drugged again and he sets a guard on her, without telling her, she is scared to death and then assaulted by the guard as he drags her out of the fight. Logan says 'I would do it again because I don't want to feel the pain of you being hurt.' He didn't do it for her, he did it for himself, and it was horrible for her and violating. She still is trying to figure out how to stay with him.

Logan liked Hannah and Parker, but he can have the perfect relationship because no big need, no emotional investment. So he goes out with Parker. Mac tells Veronica that Logan is 'sweet'. Veronica is roped into going to the party and sees all of Logans friends, sees that Logan is telling them Parker is his girlfriend (remember in witchita linebacker when he didn't tell them Veronica was his girlfriend). She thinks 'Sad, but I was right, he's happier and I'm going to get over it. She hooks up with Piz, and tells mac that it is nice, less painful. She shares activities with Piz, not just sex. Because Logan and Veronica have the kind of relationship where it feels good when it stops, but Logan can't let it go because separation anxiety, so he acts out.

Need is not love. I think they did love and understand each other and genuinely were friends but were completely incompatible as lovers and I think Logan was incapable of love at the time, he never learned about relationships from his parents, had poor judgement about people, ;had lost everyone, had bad coping skills, like drinking and setting things on fire.

Dick. I think Veronica puts up with Dick because she knows he is all Logan has. This can be proof the ghb wasn't the issue. She doesn't forgive Dick but she isn't mean enough to take him away from Logan, and maybe not mean enough to take Logan away from Dick. Shared history.  

 

Okay I see where you are coming from about the more pain later.  I can definitely understand that POV.  I just have a different one.  For me, the deal breaker still should have been Dick because she obviously isn't over the GHB thing since she makes a huge deal about how Madison gave her the drugged drink and wrote slut on her car.  She was obviously fine with him hooking up with some random girl- He tells her and then asks if she still loves him and she replies "Yes" in a sweet tone then they kiss.  Then all is good until she finds out he slept with Madison and she instantly brings up the GHB. So for me, it is most definitely what her trust issues with him bulls down to. So him sleeping with Madison brought all those feelings to the surface. I understand her feelings, but really if I were her- his and Dick's relationship would have been done or we would have been. I probably could have forgiven him with time for the Madison thing since she really had no idea what was up with the drink and just thought Veronica was all over her boyfriend because she was drunk. 

 

I'm obviously a LoVe shipper, so I'm just going to leave that as you and I see them differently.  I think Veronica was unfair to him a lot of the time. But, I also think Logan did a lot of idiotic things. I don't think their relationship issues were one-sided. I think it was a combination of her unwillingness to open up and let anyone in, in fear of being hurt, and his self-destructive behavior.

I also think they both had a hard time letting each other go. The only way that worked is when she moved away to Stanford, because as long as they are in close proximity to one another they are like a month to a flame- no matter how dangerous and explosive they just can't get enough.  

And once they both grew up they were better matches for each other than they ever could have been as kids.  He needed to gain a sense of self and she needed to learn to be okay with being vulnerable.  I think she is still working on it on her end, but I think Logan knows who he is now and is a pretty stable companion for Veronica.