S03.E11: Liars

[ferjy]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

She was swiping many, many times.  Yeah, not a vacuum cleaner, an industrial strength cleaner there.  As others have said, they are probably used to cleaning up blood there.

Pretty sure the FM was speaking figuratively. The point being made was that it it could have been a broom but it would still have been impeccably cleaned because that’s how the show runners write these episodes. They come to their result without rhyme or reason. 

[AnswersWanted]

7 hours ago, Empress1 said:

I remember I once watched some show, I can't even remember the name of it, but one character was lying to the other about being in a fight, and the other one was like "Look at your hands." The liar's hands were smooth, unblemished. The other one held up his hands, which were cut and bloody and the knuckles were bruised, and he said "This is what hands look like when you've been in a fight." I thought of that when WinStabler punched her square in the face and then later her face was barely bruised. At BEST she'd be bruised, at worst she'd have a broken jaw or cheekbone or both and some loose, missing, or broken teeth. He also slammed her head into the floor. I've seen Meloni in person; he's a big guy (and fit, and hot; I saw him when we were both waiting for a light to change in NYC, standing on the same corner. He was jogging). He could have snapped her neck easily.

Absolutely. And love that nick choice for him, heh. 

I can suspend belief for a TV show that’s earned it, but this show has totally disappointed me this entire season, so the whole fight scene really made me just irritated. 

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to want a show to make some effort to make sense sometimes. Give my brain a break, ffs. 

June’s pointless struggle should have been over in 3 seconds, with June either unconscious or her neck snapped as you said. 

She was like the goddamn energizer bunny and just kept going and going, it was so unbelievable.

Between her face surviving a full force punch to the pen stabbing, I was just over the whole endeavor. 

6 hours ago, AllyB said:

Well I absolutely loved that Kate Bush song at the end. I didn't think I'd ever heard it before so I googled it and watched the music video which was directed by Terry Gilliam and stars Donald Sutherland. That did feel vaguely familiar to me, so possibly I saw it a few times when I was a kid. It's a great song though, I can tell I'll be playing it a lot in the next few days. And I'll add it to some of my playlists, driving and figure skating I think.

That's my main takeaway from the episode. I really enjoyed a 34 year old song.

I liked it too, it was definitely my first time hearing it. 

During season 1 I actually thought the show had some really good, random song choices that I added to my playlist, but this season either it’s been music I already had or I just didn’t care for. 

6 hours ago, Joana said:

I mean... they basically spoiled everything with the episode title alone. You just knew that there would be betrayal and that June's plan would fall apart (eh, kinda) and that either Fred or Serena would be setting each other up, except that from the moment of that scene with Rita it was more than obvious that it was going to be Serena, so none of this came as a surprise.

Except for June killing Commander Meloni. I did NOT see that coming! Until they met at the Jezebels, at which point it was the only plausible resolution left. But man, was that killing scene ridiculous. Of course a man of his size would easily overpower her. What kind of crap was that? June is basically morphing into Bride/Arya now, except that Kill Bill was actually entertaining and Arya was likeable, and this/she is not. And of course, Martha Ex Machina conveniently pops up. They took their sweet time disposing of the commander's body, so I don't understand why June couldn't have cleaned herself up instead of going outside the room all blood-stained - except for DRAMATIC! purposes, of course. Also, the show promised us that Commander Meloni would be gay. Booooo! I'm disappointed. Unless they were really going for the "he wants it doggy style because it's the only way he can get it up with a woman" angle, which... I can't. I really can't. And most importantly - what kind of vacuum cleaner IS that???!

As satisfying as it was to see Fred arrested, I still have some pretty major beef with that one. So, it basically happened because he was actually willing to give up on his power in order to have a quiet family life with his wife and baby? COME ON! Are you kidding me? GTFO. That's so wildly out of character that I don't even know where to begin. Throughout their entire conversation in the woods I just kept thinking "Isn't it a few years too late to have this discussion". Also, count me in among those wondering where the hell they were with absolutely no one watching over the roads. Oh, if only Moira and Emily had been aware of this magical road to freedom. And poor Commander Lawrence too, apparently. 

To sum it up, it was basically the same as last week. The good: stuff happens. The bad: almost none of it makes sense. 

Preach. 

I feel exactly the same way overall, I concede stuff is happening, but WTELF is the point? 

All of these characters are dumb as shit now just so the plot can even happen.

Lawrence has to be a sniveling weasel because “plot”. 

Fred apparently is willing to drop all the progress he’s made in Gilead to regain his title as a high Commander because he bought into his wife’s fantasy of them “helping”  their former US enemies and he would totally be off the hook for EVERYTHING because “reasons”. 

June apparently has the upper body strength of a raging heavy weight boxer now because “yeah, like we fucking care about realism, didn’t you see how COOL that shit looked???”. 

I don’t mind watching a show with some unrealistic bits and pieces that advance the story reasonably, but this show... 

I feel like they’re too lazy to write well so the onus is on me to just not care enough.

Well in that case then what’s the point in tuning in if I cannot be bothered to watch so much clunky, junky, trash being sold to me as “art”? 

6 hours ago, Joana said:

The religious aspect of the show has been entirely thrown out of window this season. What used to be a brand new (and perversely fascinating) religion with a unique worldview is now reduced to "uhm, yeah, everyone is super-Christian". Among the utter lack of creativity and lazy writing that's plagued S3, this one is what probably bugs me the most. 

Agreed.

It’s such a key component to the story that this show has just tossed away like it doesn’t even matter, or should.

I’ve lost count how many times they’ve done that now. 

I always liked how Atwood interwove religions introspection into the story, but these writers just want to get to the more juicer bits, like a Jezebel throw down showdown and magical Canada border crossings of convenience.

5 hours ago, Joana said:

You know, when Fred and Serena were talking and he mentioned how he thought she'd leave him for a man who could give her a child, there was something... sinister about him (probably unintentionally, as it turned out) and for a second I really believed he was going to be like "Bitch, I know you're trying to cross me, and now you're not getting out of these woods alive"; and that it would turn out that both of them were planning to betray each other the whole time. But then obviously nothing happened.

Frankly, that he was willing to along with her "plan" to leave everything they have in Gilead behind them so that they could get the baby back is so unbelievable and absurd to me that I can't fully enjoy him being arrested. 

I felt the exact same. 

I may hate Fred, but he just would not be this stupid, not to get caught like that. 

His so called “love” for his wife and her desire to have a kid, a kid that they conceived through rape that is now in the custody of her birth mother’s, their former slave, husband, yeah, that is what causes him to actually believe in such a happy ending...GTFOOH.

Fred obviously has an IQ higher than 65, so how the hell did he suspect absolutely nothing was amiss about a “deal” being made with the very same government that had been trying to destroy him and his regime for over 5 years? 

The second she put that phone on his desk his ass should have known something was up.

A double double cross would have been a much more believable and interesting take on the situation. 

We know these two can turn on each other and show off just how selfish and self serving they really are, so the whole romantic Romeo and his Juliet act to the end was frankly total bullshit.

There was so many other ways they could have handled a Fred and Serena takedown. And frankly I would have liked to see it happen to them inside of Gilead.

What better way for the gruesome twosome to end up than being eaten alive by the same Frankenstein’s monster that they willingly created once to serve them. 

This arrest just read to me as being a hack job to rush the plot for the finale, per usual, and there was nothing impressive about it. 

If they have to write Fred without a functioning brain to get him to remain a factor on the show, just kill him off already.

3 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Yeah, that comment about why he wanted her on her stomach was  bit of a stretch for me. He could be gay or bi, or he could just hate women so much that he doesn't want to look them in the eye during sex. FWIW, straight people often enjoy anal sex as well. 

While I do think he had a hard on for Fred, the review's simplifed commentary just rubbed me the wrong way.

Exactly, what kind of sex you enjoy or prefer or what sexual positions you engage in, none of that is tied to your sexual orientation. 

Winslow was a man who enjoyed fucking with people and rape, that’s completely separate from his orientation, his sex positions would come from that place of power, of wanting to exert control and domination over his victim, that’s what I got out of it. 

And who is to say he wasn’t intending to get some backdoor action in the first place? 

That would probably have convinced the reviewer he definitely was trying to pretend he was having sex with a man, you know, avoiding the vag and all *rolls eyes*. 

3 hours ago, Joana said:

Also, while I get that some suspension of disbelief is always necessary and I don't have a problem with that, really, but... 52 children? 52 CHILDREN??! At the same time? Give me a break.

Taking away just one child is incredibly risky, as June certainly should be aware of, as she was in on it herself, but getting that many of them is simply ridiculous. It would take a massively coordinated effort to even have a slight chance of that plan working out, and if the resistance movement had that much manpower and resources available, they would have long liberated themselves from Gilead's rule. There's a much, much, MUCH bigger chance all those children would end up dead than freed and it's simply not worth it.

I know many characters have pointed out to June how crazy dangerous that plan is, but somehow they didn't quite manage to get that point across enough.

I immediately felt tired when they mentioned that number and we were just 2 minutes into the episode. 

It’s hard enough to take 20 kids on a fucking field trip to the museum in a society where they aren’t stolen children who are constantly under watch by armed guards and fake “parents”.  

This bunch is working within a deadly regime where everything has to be done in total secrecy and at any given time a hanging can be carried out, throwing the whole plan into chaos. The entire operation ending in complete and utter tragedy would be unavoidable, because reality and science and logic would never allow for it.

Again the show is the only one pushing this impossible plan into place because they want this huge payoff to close out the season, but it’s so illogical it’s laughable. 

Why didn’t they have Canada working out this operation with the US government that were also working with the resistance inside, this plan would desperately need so many free bodies on the other side to pull off. Those with real power and the ability to get things moving without risking imminent torture or death. 

Government officials, secret spies, arranging solid, dependable transportation options, and most importantly correlated movements from every single person involved, including the kids and those who would have to keep them quiet and hidden at all times. 

It’s like someone watched “Schindler’s List” and got a big head over how this show could have a similar moment, aka Emmy fodder. 

And it’s all due to them wanting June to be the headliner, she just has to be the one pulling all of this off, even though it makes no sense for her to be. 

They’re arranging for the impossible just so that June gets the credit for the “win”, she has done what no else could or would, blah blah bullshit.

No, she’s doing what no one else would dare to because they don’t want a bunch of dead kids on their hands and would only act when the plan is at least half plausible. 

Everything has to be sacrificed at the altar of June, there is no exception, no matter what. 

This show doesn’t even care to pretend anymore that any of this shit is reflecting a plausible reality for human beings that aren’t secretly mutants with super powers. 

I mean now they’re going to get the kids out in a goddamn plane because hey, why the fuck not, June can pilot it herself if need be because of course she took a flying course once in college or watched a Youtube video that one time. 

With June every fucking thing is possible.

She can save lives and souls through the power of baked goods, sneers, pens, and sheer willpower.

Praise be. 

[lucindabelle]

What docs were shredded?  Or the papers that said where all the kids were I hope.

eleanor docilely snuck away after threatening to kill him the day before? Doesn’t fit.

but how satisfying was that arrest.

admittedly I didn’t realize it was a set up and kept wondering why the heck Serena would think truell would give her a baby.

immediately rewatched and it’s obvious she’s in on it. She doesn’t scream when arrested. She’s put into an American car. She doesn’t struggle at all.

dona nobis os a famous round: often sung in productions of HENRY V. I don’t agree they were performing. They were just singing together, a la ca

lcife.

i do wonder though I mean gilead has been in existence just five years. That’s NOTHING. To me it’s bizarre still that it has so many rituals and that places like that gentle inn even exist.

[ferjy]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

We've been getting a lot of the Martha storyline for quite a while now

I disagree. We’ve been getting snippets here and there and only when it serves to help June in some way. 

[mamadrama]

6 minutes ago, ferjy said:

I disagree. We’ve been getting snippets here and there and only when it serves to help June in some way. 

Yeah, snippets here and there but no actual meat. Since it became June's Tale, they have only existed to further her "plot."

[ferjy]

21 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

Frankly, that he was willing to along with her "plan" to leave everything they have in Gilead behind them so that they could get the baby back is so unbelievable and absurd to me that I can't fully enjoy him being arrested. 

23 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

I may hate Fred, but he just would not be this stupid, not to get caught like that. 

I’m glad you guys brought that up. While I listened to the U.S. agent rattling off Fred’s offences I thought he should have saved his breath and merely said “You’re under arrest for sheer stupidity,” and ended it there. Then I might have cheered the arrest. 

[ferjy]

25 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Yeah, snippets here and there but no actual meat. Since it became June's Tale, they have only existed to further her "plot."

That scene with the Marthas at the beginning was the worst. They start by berating June (with good reason) but not two minutes later they give in and agree to go along with her.  {blinks}

[AnswersWanted]

16 minutes ago, ferjy said:

I disagree. We’ve been getting snippets here and there and only when it serves to help June in some way. 

That's the function of nearly 99% of the other characters now, they only matter or make an appearance when June is involved and they can service or assist her in some way. 

Even these kids she's wanting to rescue, these kids suddenly matter and are worth tanking the entire resistance movement for because June wants to do it, the end. 

The Marthas' should have laughed in her face and told her to sit her useless, thoughtless ass somewhere out of the way while the grownups actually had a conversation that didn't lead to countless more dead bodies she could care less about. 

She is a nobody that didn't even take advantage of her own opportunity to make a break for freedom, how is she now going to act like she runs shit. Bish please. 

15 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Yeah, snippets here and there but no actual meat. Since it became June's Tale, they have only existed to further her "plot."

Amen. 

We could have had, at the very least, one whole episode dedicated to them and their network. 

We could have followed the awesome Martha in Lawrence's household as she went about her business.

We should have long ago been introduced to the head leaders of the resistance and see them in action.

Rita could have been a big part of this as well, but hey, why write a well thought out and carefully constructed story when you can pull a Michael Bay. 

Cars! Planes! Trucks! Muffins! Paper! Pens! Vacuums! Blood! Driving! Woods! Guns! Singing!

Nothing happens now unless June can somehow be placed smackdab in the middle of the action. 

If June doesn't get screen time then no one does hardly. It's total madness.

9 minutes ago, ferjy said:

I’m glad you guys brought that up. While I listened to the U.S. agent rattling off Fred’s offences I thought he should have saved his breath and merely said “You’re under arrest for sheer stupidity,” and ended it there. Then I might have cheered the arrest. 

Hah!!

Omg, if that had happened I would actually have floved this episode just on principle, heee.

I mean they even had that bit in the car where Fred is "growing suspicious" about the drive, like holy shit on a shingle, it was so moronic I laughed. 

He should have immediately pumped the brakes, shoved Serena out the passenger side and put that car in reverse like his life depended on it. 

The show figured my hatred of Fred would make up for the absolute idocy that got him captured.

They were very, very wrong.

[ferjy]

57 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

Government officials, secret spies, arranging solid, dependable transportation options, and most importantly correlated movements from every single person involved, including the kids and those who would have 

Ha! You can imagine all the people that would have to be involved, at different levels. What do we get? June. How could they possibly expect us to swallow this crap? 

Edited August 1, 2019 by ferjy

[ferjy]

6 minutes ago, AnswersWanted said:

He should have immediately pumped the brakes, shoved Serena out the passenger side and put that car in reverse like his life depended on it. 

I actually thought he was going to do just that (well, maybe not shove Serena out). Rev that engine backwards and make it safely back to Gilead. Honestly, I don’t know what to expect from this loony lot of writers. 

[Tesla]

What is this? Movement of the plot? I barely remember what that feels like. 

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, ferjy said:

That scene with the Marthas at the beginning was the worst. They start by berating June (with good reason) but not two minutes later they give in and agree to go along with her.  {blinks}

I was loving the beating she was taking from the Martha at first. Wish it had continued.

[Empress1]

2 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I was loving the beating she was taking from the Martha at first. Wish it had continued.

Me too. And really, I want to see a show about the Marthas and their network.

[SuzieSioux]

I don't have anything else to add to the discussion, but have to give another thumbs up here for "Cloudbusting" at the end of the episode, that song is a tune and a half. I'm mostly excited to read about how people on this forum heard it for the first time ever during this episode. Do yourself a favour: go one further and get yourself a copy of the album Hounds of Love and enjoy!

Edited to add: I just remembered this episode also had "Only You" by Portishead in it. Whoever was organising the music for this one was on point!

Edited August 1, 2019 by SuzieSioux

[Joana]

3 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I was loving the beating she was taking from the Martha at first. Wish it had continued.

Oh, so did I! And to be fair, they only agreed to stay out of her way and not interfere with her plan instead of actually helping her, but regardless, their hard no should have remained a hard no.

And it was so annoying that Beth eventually vouched for June. For all we've been shown, she doesn't really like/trust her all that much ("This house was a hell of a lot safer before you came" - HAH!) - not that she has any reason to, of course. 

[Anela]

1 hour ago, SuzieSioux said:

I don't have anything else to add to the discussion, but have to give another thumbs up here for "Cloudbusting" at the end of the episode, that song is a tune and a half. I'm mostly excited to read about how people on this forum heard it for the first time ever during this episode. Do yourself a favour: go one further and get yourself a copy of the album Hounds of Love and enjoy!

Edited to add: I just remembered this episode also had "Only You" by Portishead in it. Whoever was organising the music for this one was on point!

I'm not in love with that song, but I listened to part of the album last night. It was out when I was a kid, so I already knew the songs, I just haven't heard them for a while. 

[Ariam]

6 hours ago, ferjy said:

Ha! You can imagine all the people that would have to be involved, at different levels. What do we get? June. How could they possibly expect us to swallow this crap? 

But the sad thing is that 99% of the people watching seem to be not just swallowing the crap, they also think it’s a steak and praise it. Check the fb page, Twitter, fb groups and fuck even critics are saying it was a.m.a.z.i.n.g and they have done such a good job. Yikes.  

Edited August 1, 2019 by Ariam

[Ashforth]

9 hours ago, chickenella said:

Also, what kind of pen was that? That wasn't any ordinary Bic, maybe a Mont Blanc fountain pen. I still find it hard to believe she could break the skin with it.

It was a Sharpie!  heh

[kieyra]

47 minutes ago, Ariam said:

But the sad thing is that 99% of the people watching seem to be not just swallowing the crap, they also think it’s a steak and praise it. Check the fb page, Twitter, fb groups and fuck even critics are saying it was a.m.a.z.i.n.g and they have done such a good job. Yikes.  

TV Club reviews have been pretty brutal this season, and they gave this week a bad grade again, but they're getting torn apart in the comments for it this time. 

[Joana]

10 hours ago, Ashforth said:

Oddly enough, even though the logistics of getting 52 children out of their homes and into a truck or a plane at the same time are staggering, if one or two children were taken at a time it could be even more difficult. With each small taking, there would be a bigger risk of compromising the network, with the result of preventing future rescues. 

I totally agree, but taking a child or two is at least somehow feasible. It's extremely risky and would basically take a Hail Mary attempt, but with some luck, it can be done. 

OTOH, taking 52 of them is simply a logistic impossibility with the tools they have at their disposal. Those kids would absolutely need to be drugged beforehand (remember Hannah?) and it would only take one of those 104 "parents" to notice something fishy for the whole plan to disintegrate. Then, it would need to occur more or less simultaneously. It's not like that truck can tour around the Boston area and pick up the kids along the way. As soon as the disappearance of the first child is noticed, everyone in Gilead would be after them. They'd need a MASSIVE diversion to get all the guards out of their way before they'd even take off, not to mention they'd need to keep the authorities occupied with something long enough to give them a reasonable amount of time to escape. And that's just scratching the surface. I simply cannot see how it can be done. 

I'll say it again, this should have happened at the start of the season, not now towards the end. I could easily see it play out as some kind of Sophie's choice, with June realizing there are far more people willing to smuggle out children than she can accommodate, and then some very difficult decisions would have to be made. It could have made for an interesting story.

9 hours ago, chickenella said:

So Fred knows he's infertile? Where does he think Nicole came from? Pardon me if it was shown already that Fred knew Nicole wasn't his baby, I can't remember if he knew or not. But that line stuck out to me as unusual.

He does know. He never said it out loud, but it was strongly implied several times during S2 that he's aware that Nick is the real father of June's baby. For starters, Serena told him it wasn't his baby. It can be argued that he thought she was just saying it in the heat of the argument and wasn't being serious, but his overall demeanour (hurrying to marry Nick off and send him away ASAP, for example) indicates that he knows the real story. 

[rubinia]

 

 

 

1

2 minutes ago, Joana said:

He does know. He never said it out loud, but it was strongly implied several times during S2 that he's aware that Nick is the real father of June's baby. For starters, Serena told him it wasn't his baby. It can be argued that he thought she was just saying it in the heat of the argument and wasn't being serious, but his overall demeanour (hurrying to marry Nick off and send him away ASAP, for example) indicates that he knows the real story. 

Yep, that and the fact that after trying for children with both Serena and handmaids there was no success.

[littlemommy]

An imperfect episode, but I still liked it, mostly because Waterford got arrested.

I also really liked that part with Serena Joy driving. The show runners obviously like that actress—and they should, she’s excellent—but they just made her too irredeemable with her actions, especially in season 2. I wanted to be able to cheer for her escape a little, but she’s just too odious. 

So now we only have three named (to us) commanders left, right? Lawrence, one handed Warren Putnam, and...Nick.

[ElsbethTascioni]

On 7/31/2019 at 1:50 AM, ferjy said:

lol Gilead must have concocted some superduper cleaning agents to get that blood out so well. Usually carpets are replaced in such circumstances. I guess it would have been a bit much to have the Marthas laying out new wall-to-wall carpeting, on their knees, holding nails between their teeth, banging away with hammers that no one would hear. (But would it, with this show?)

That whole time I was like damn, what brand is that carpet cleaner because I need a miracle machine like that.

[Joana]

18 minutes ago, kieyra said:

TV Club reviews have been pretty brutal this season, and they gave this week a bad grade again, but they're getting torn apart in the comments for it this time. 

I totally agree with that review. I see they're wondering what it was that made June finally snap, after having been in that position (i.e. raped) several times before, and was actually willing herself to go through the motions again. I have a theory, and while I realize it's complete fanwank as we've been shown exactly zero of this, but I really think it could explain it - perhaps she realized just what she had told the High Commander and how it may come across - that Lawrence is sending her out on spying missions in order to collect dirt on other commanders. And knowing he's fallen from grace already, this could well be the last straw and the thing that gets him executed/sent to colonies, while she's assigned to a new posting (if she's lucky!) and her plan falls apart. And then she realizes the man can't get out of that room alive. Of course, the killing scene proceeds to be ridiculously awful, but that's a different matter. 

And of course, that we have to go to such lengths in order to make sense of things the show doesn't even bother to pretend it's going to explain...

[nikkichan]

On 7/31/2019 at 12:00 AM, LittleRed84 said:

Need a murder cleaned up? Call Jezebel’s Houskeeping 1-800-Blood-Removers

No kidding! I want to know what brand of carpet shampooer machine that was cause it did a great job of cleaning blood out of the carpet!

Not that I need to clean blood from my carpets...that sounded weird.

[Trillian]

9 hours ago, ferjy said:

That scene with the Marthas at the beginning was the worst. They start by berating June (with good reason) but not two minutes later they give in and agree to go along with her.  {blinks}

I was so very thrilled when the Martha (sans muffins lol) said “you jumped onto a train that was already moving and now you’re Che fucking Guevara”?  I actually cheered out loud.  But I’m with you that they gave in to her bullying for no good reason. What I really wanted them to say was:

”Hell, yes, we’re going to stand in your way, because your stupid plan is not a plan but a crazy dream. Don’t you think if it were feasible we would’ve done it by now?  We don’t care if you kill yourself, but you’re risking the lives of anyone who helps you, risking the children’s lives, and very probably going to destroy the network we’ve carefully built up and undo years of resistance efforts. There is no magically-unattended yellow brick road where you can just drive into Canada”. 

But then they gave in to June’s piercing glare and squared jaw, Fred finds the magic road and my dream died. 

I don’t think anyone else has mentioned this, but I was also really annoyed by Jezebel’s. June is sauntering around chatting up the bartender as if it were not Gilead and she was there to enjoy an evening out. Um, that’s not what the women at Jezebel’s are kept alive to do. And the ambiance? I half expected Humphrey Bogart to sidle up with the Letters of Transit that she needs to get out.  

Edited August 1, 2019 by Trillian
Correct term from Casablanca finally came to me

[Helena Dax]

Well,it wasn't perfect, but I liked it, especially the end. I think we all agree that Fred isn't exactly a genius so I wouldn't be surprised if he thought that he was such a big fish now that he could get baby Holly back without raising suspicion. I mean, I don't think he was planning on defecting so they could live in Canada with the baby, like some posters say. Based on their conversation about Americans not understanding their loyalty to Gilead, I guess Serena made Fred think that they could trick the Canadians/Americans into giving them the baby somehow (maybe she told Fred his "wonderful" videos had surely made the world understand how cool Gilead is.)

Serena deserves a punishment, but I don't think she'll get it, especially if she starts working for the Americans against Gilead.

Also, I guess Canadians didn't arrest Fred the first time because  1) Canada isn't at war with Gilead and 2) Fred was there with diplomatic immunity or something like that, but this time he was there without protection and the Americans were waiting for him. Heh.

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, Joana said:

OTOH, taking 52 of them is simply a logistic impossibility with the tools they have at their disposal. Those kids would absolutely need to be drugged beforehand (remember Hannah?) and it would only take one of those 104 "parents" to notice something fishy for the whole plan to disintegrate. Then, it would need to occur more or less simultaneously. It's not like that truck can tour around the Boston area and pick up the kids along the way. As soon as the disappearance of the first child is noticed, everyone in Gilead would be after them. They'd need a MASSIVE diversion to get all the guards out of their way before they'd even take off, not to mention they'd need to keep the authorities occupied with something long enough to give them a reasonable amount of time to escape. And that's just scratching the surface. I simply cannot see how it can be done. 

I've been trying to think about how it could be done since the 52 muffins arrived.  Obviously it will be done.  Initially I thought the season finale would be Fred arrested and hung, but since this episode arrested Fred?  I think the kids will get out.

They have the cargo plane that's delivering the contraband, and it will fly out with the kids.  I think that's a given now.  So how?  More importantly, will the Martha's have to fly out with them?  It seems like they would since the kids will obviously be in their care.  They are the nannies too in Gilead.  If they stay there would have to be an extremely good excuse for them.

The best I can come up with is Lawrence.  He's got to be key to this.  Fred and Winslow are out of his way now...some kind of gathering or party or maybe even a video to send to the world about how happy the kids are, so give us Holly back?  OR, if it's arranged during a time when the Commanders and Wives are at a function that he sets up?

They won't have to drug the kids, for them it could be like a "field trip" and tour of the airplane...whatever, that part is easy, once they are on the plane, it just takes off, with Lawrence maybe, but with Eleanor for sure?

6 hours ago, Joana said:

I'll say it again, this should have happened at the start of the season, not now towards the end. I could easily see it play out as some kind of Sophie's choice, with June realizing there are far more people willing to smuggle out children than she can accommodate, and then some very difficult decisions would have to be made. It could have made for an interesting story.

That could have been good.  I still think this is an interesting story though. 

The problem is, they have been SO sloppy before now that some have lost faith in the writers. 

As for this season?  To me, it all fits together now (FINALLY!) It's all tied in to breaking June to the point of snapping out of her rather selfish, but understandable desires to get Hannah out, into knowing she may die, but expanding the plan to saving as many kids as possible.  From the 3-4 times weekly executions which we heard would happen last season "it helps keep them in line" too long mostly solitary hospital on her knees confinement which gave her plenty of time to think, to the girls showing up to have their pelvises examined and measured...it's all lead to this significant change in June.

6 hours ago, Joana said:

12 hours ago, chickenella said:

So Fred knows he's infertile? Where does he think Nicole came from? Pardon me if it was shown already that Fred knew Nicole wasn't his baby, I can't remember if he knew or not. But that line stuck out to me as unusual.

He's been told at least 3 times it's not his baby.  June once, Serena twice.  The show has never mentioned it, but I always thought naming her "Nicole" was his tip off that the father was Nick. 

Either way, it had to be Nick or the doctor, June would have no other opportunity.

5 hours ago, Joana said:

I see they're wondering what it was that made June finally snap, after having been in that position (i.e. raped) several times before, and was actually willing herself to go through the motions again. I have a theory, and while I realize it's complete fanwank as we've been shown exactly zero of this, but I really think it could explain it - perhaps she realized just what she had told the High Commander and how it may come across - that Lawrence is sending her out on spying missions in order to collect dirt on other commanders. And knowing he's fallen from grace already, this could well be the last straw and the thing that gets him executed/sent to colonies, while she's assigned to a new posting (if she's lucky!) and her plan falls apart. And then she realizes the man can't get out of that room alive. Of course, the killing scene proceeds to be ridiculously awful, but that's a different matter. 

The entire season made her finally snap.  That's one thing I credit the writers with (and I do dislike much of what they've done, but not the past 3 episodes.)

Everyone has a breaking point, June's well past hers, which is why she's being so determined.  She no longer cares about her own life.  When the rape started with Winslow, she tried to go into her "it's not happening" place AGAIN, but this time, it didn't work.

5 hours ago, Trillian said:

I don’t think anyone else has mentioned this, but I was also really annoyed by Jezebel’s. June is sauntering around chatting up the bartender as if it were not Gilead and she was there to enjoy an evening out. Um, that’s not what the women at Jezebel’s are kept alive to do. And the ambiance? I half expected Humphrey Bogart to sidle up with the Letters of Transit that she needs to get out.  

Jezebel's is set up to be like the former singles bars/clubs where the commanders can pretend it's the old days.  Only in this version, none of the women they "hit on" can ever turn them down. 

That other woman was just sitting at the bar having a drink too, until that commander came up and claimed her.  Last time we saw Jezebels it was the same, Moira wandered around until claimed, as did the others.  Fred had to step in and stop another commander from "claiming" June as well. 

Nearly all of the women there are assigned to Jezebels, only a few are handmaids, and it's risky, even for the commanders to bring one.  (We learned all of this with Fred.)

The rest, as Moira told us, do get to hang out, listen to music, drink, eat what they want etc.  Their job is to "pretend" this is all like it used to be, with the exception that a man never gets shut down.

14 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Yeah, snippets here and there but no actual meat. Since it became June's Tale, they have only existed to further her "plot."

It's always been June's tale, since the book was written, decades ago.

12 hours ago, Tesla said:

What is this? Movement of the plot? I barely remember what that feels like. 

I know!  It's so cool!  I can forgive a lot because we are finally moving into the stuff I've wanted to know/see since I read the book so very long ago!

I hate the writers for wasting Moira and Luke in Canada, and not letting them interact with the world, do youtubes, do interviews, expose Gilead!  Especially Moira, who could be telling the world about Jezebels!  I hated that the "letters" June smuggled were such a big deal, when they have real, living, breathing, former handmaids and slaves already in Canada who WOULD be telling their tale, and talking to the Americans, and the world.

Finally, it's starting to happen.  Fred will be tried in a "world" court!  Canada and the USA are cooperating!  We will finally get the "rest of the story" instead of all the personal tales, like Moira trying to fuck again, and Luke drinking his beer.

9 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Me too. And really, I want to see a show about the Marthas and their network.

I want to see more, but I think we've seen a lot already.  What I want even more than that is to see the actual remains of Americans who are waging a ground war on Gilead to get their country back.  I want to see the world reaction to all of this.  I want much, much more of Spy Guy.  I want Moira to start writing and speaking out and doing interviews, and I want Emily to do the same.

I already know Gilead.  Now I want to see how the world is feeling about Gilead.

7 hours ago, Ariam said:

But the sad thing is that 99% of the people watching seem to be not just swallowing the crap, they also think it’s a steak and praise it. Check the fb page, Twitter, fb groups and fuck even critics are saying it was a.m.a.z.i.n.g and they have done such a good job. Yikes.  

There are a lot of opinions out there, and some excellent criticisms of the show, as well as praise for it when it steps up and does land good episodes. 

One of the biggest criticisms is that nothing happens, or that they are dragging their feet.  I agree with that one for the most part.

This episode and the two previous episodes though?  We are finally seeing things happen, important, game changing things.  So, yay.

Also, all of June's previous escapes have taught her things, and they are useful now, along with her joining the existing network and learning there, and playing Lawrence as well.  The strings are being pulled together.

Handmaids, Marthas, and Lawrence are all telling her off, deservedly, and the show went out of it's way to show her changes and idiocies (that school wall scene, ugh.)  In retrospect though, all of that was for a reason.  It's all changed her, and we have watched her change, and finally care about more than her own child and her own life.

6 hours ago, littlemommy said:

An imperfect episode, but I still liked it, mostly because Waterford got arrested.

I also really liked that part with Serena Joy driving. The show runners obviously like that actress—and they should, she’s excellent—but they just made her too irredeemable with her actions, especially in season 2. I wanted to be able to cheer for her escape a little, but she’s just too odious. 

So now we only have three named (to us) commanders left, right? Lawrence, one handed Warren Putnam, and...Nick.

Yeah, and I don't know how much longer Lawrence will be around!  Maybe he stays to continue to help bring Gilead down, or he chickens out about turning himself in?

Waterford being arrested was so great!  Wonderful scene too, with him still blustering and trying to take charge.  Best of all, this has to be the opening we've wanted for "the rest of the story" that Atwood barely told...the world.

Moira will undoubtedly testify against him too, which should give us some very meaty scenes that she'll rock.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Umbelina
too not to

[BrindaWalsh]

For people debating what made June snap, I thought that the answer was much more basic than that - I figured that Meloni was going for anal rape - one that would be violent, painful, and potentially injury inducing.  And yes, June has been raped month after month, through a ritual, but not in this way - to our knowledge.  That was my guess about why she snapped and fought like hell.

When Lawrence handed her the gun and said "they're coming for us, are we certain that they mean June and her commander?  Not Lawrence and his wife?  I feel like they set the stage for it to go either way.  

And regarding Serena, are we supposed to see Season 2 and 3 as a sweeping awakening/redemption arc?  I still don't get what I'm supposed to think and feel about her.  

Also, I realized that if I separate this show from season one a bit -- acknowledge that the distorted world that Atwood created is now a bit of a different world all together, I find it much more tolerable.  Otherwise, I get stuck on details like dancing and singing.

Is next week the finale?

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

And regarding Serena, are we supposed to see Season 2 and 3 as a sweeping awakening/redemption arc?  I still don't get what I'm supposed to think and feel about her.  

I think Serena has been on the edge for a long time.  She's also snapped a few times.  She loved writing, and when Fred was in the hospital, she was happier than we'd ever seen her, until Nicole.  Then Fred was released, her limited freedoms and authority were gone again.

Her finger is cut off, she's beaten in front of June, and now, she doesn't even have the baby.  She left Fred and ran to mommy's and he sucked up until she took him back, but that's no marriage.  I think she took him back just to get Nicole back.  Fred doesn't even have sex with her, his only use is as a shield, or to get that baby back.

Fred and Winslow trying to play her about Nicole though?  Serena's always been the smart one in the family, not Fred, as the point out in this episode a few times.  I think she saw right through the "no forward progress with Nicole" bullshit. 

It made her reflect even more on her current life, and she was also greatly moved by watching the women in Canada longingly last time...with their friends and non teal clothing, and cell phones, and freedoms.

Serena wanted a "better" world and old fashioned "values" and to have a baby, and she loved her power and fame.  Once the coup happened though, she was shut out of having any power at all, but she stuck it out for at least 5 years, trying to make it work, and for the promised and rare baby.

Spy Guy gave her an opportunity to get out, and after the only thing she had left, the baby, was taken from her...she was over Gilead.

Then Fred made a fool of himself, showing his obsession with June to the world during that inspection, and the promised Nicole was put off and put off, and Serena saw right through Fred allowing the use of Nicole as a political tool, and lost whatever remaining hope Serena had left.

In some ways, June and Serena have been on these similar growth/change arcs since the show began.  Now those arcs seem to be finally paying off.

18 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

Is next week the finale?

Two more episodes.

18 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

For people debating what made June snap, I thought that the answer was much more basic than that - I figured that Meloni was going for anal rape - one that would be violent, painful, and potentially injury inducing.  And yes, June has been raped month after month, through a ritual, but not in this way - to our knowledge.  That was my guess about why she snapped and fought like hell.

Good point. 

[Trillian]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

It's always been June's tale, since the book was written, decades ago

I’ll bite. In Margaret Atwood’s hands, it was never June’s Tale, at least not how I read it. She was totally anonymous and could have been any woman trapped in the system. She had no name. She had no agency. She wasn’t a freedom fighter and she certainly wasn’t a leader of the resistance. 

One of the main themes was how women’s voices and experiences are lost to history.  They couldn’t have gotten multiple seasons out of that theme, so they made it June’s Tale. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s a different thing.  IMHO. 

[mamadrama]

4 hours ago, nikkichan said:

No kidding! I want to know what brand of carpet shampooer machine that was cause it did a great job of cleaning blood out of the carpet!

Not that I need to clean blood from my carpets...that sounded weird.

Hey, it's cool, we get it. Shit happens, blood leaks. We don't judge! (Each other, that is. The show we judge 10 ways from Sunday.) 😎

[Umbelina]

8 minutes ago, Trillian said:

I’ll bite. In Margaret Atwood’s hands, it was never June’s Tale, at least not how I read it. She was totally anonymous and could have been any woman trapped in the system. She had no name. She had no agency. She wasn’t a freedom fighter and she certainly wasn’t a leader of the resistance. 

One of the main themes was how women’s voices and experiences are lost to history.  They couldn’t have gotten multiple seasons out of that theme, so they made it June’s Tale. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s a different thing.  IMHO. 

It was The Handmaid's Tale.  Solo.  Not "all of the handmaid's tales" or "the wive's tale" or "the Martha's tale."  The show named that handmaid June, and decided it was (as hinted at in the book) Wallingford as her Commander.

Still, it was ONE woman's tale, a single handmaid stuck in Gilead.

From the book we know that at least

Spoiler

her tapes got to that cabin, and it's speculated that she made it at least that far, then possibly disappeared into Canada or Europe, and kept her name a secret to protect those still in Gilead.  Hannah?

Spoiler

So it's likely she was associated with the resistance, or how would she and/or her tapes get to that cabin.

Either way, to me what the writers squandered in this Hulu show was "the rest of the story."  They left first person June stories behind pretty early on, but never expanded on them.  They had Luke, then Moira, then Emily all escape to Canada and then not do a damn thing with them that was "world building" instead just more personal stories crap. 

They never explained even the power structure in Gilead, EVEN though they had plenty of solo Commander scenes.  It was cheap and stupid and lazy writing.

The reason I like this episode is that Fred's arrested, but more importantly, the WORLD is finally being introduced.

Edited August 1, 2019 by Umbelina
clarity

[BrindaWalsh]

Quote

I think Serena has been on the edge for a long time.  She's also snapped a few times.  She loved writing, and when Fred was in the hospital, she was happier than we'd ever seen her, until Nicole.  Then Fred was released, her limited freedoms and authority were gone again.

Her finger is cut off, she's beaten in front of June, and now, she doesn't even have the baby.  She left Fred and ran to mommy's and he sucked up until she took him back, but that's no marriage.  I think she took him back just to get Nicole back.  Fred doesn't even have sex with her, his only use is as a shield, or to get that baby back.

Fred and Winslow trying to play her about Nicole though?  Serena's always been the smart one in the family, not Fred, as the point out in this episode a few times.  I think she saw right through the "no forward progress with Nicole" bullshit. 

It made her reflect even more on her current life, and she was also greatly moved by watching the women in Canada longingly last time...with their friends and non teal clothing, and cell phones, and freedoms.

Serena wanted a "better" world and old fashioned "values" and to have a baby, and she loved her power and fame.  Once the coup happened though, she was shut out of having any power at all, but she stuck it out for at least 5 years, trying to make it work, and for the promised and rare baby.

Spy Guy gave her an opportunity to get out, and after the only thing she had left, the baby, was taken from her...she was over Gilead.

Then Fred made a fool of himself, showing his obsession with June to the world during that inspection, and the promised Nicole was put off and put off, and Serena saw right through Fred allowing the use of Nicole as a political tool, and lost whatever remaining hope Serena had left.

Yes, I agree with everything on this, and I tried to explain it and couldn't so simply deleted it.   You captured her arc beautifully.  Especially her realizations that Nicole as nothing more than a political tool for her husband, her visit to Canada and her realizations about how perfectly pathetic Fred Waterford truly is (and that's just one description in a long list of adjectives).  

However, I still don't get how I'm supposed to feel about her?  I don't know that the show is portraying her as a character we're supposed to have sympathy for -  because she's ultimately not sympathetic, no matter how many regrets she may have.  Especially when those regrets come from a completely selfish and egocentric point of view.   

[mamadrama]

41 minutes ago, Trillian said:

I’ll bite. In Margaret Atwood’s hands, it was never June’s Tale, at least not how I read it. She was totally anonymous and could have been any woman trapped in the system. She had no name. She had no agency. She wasn’t a freedom fighter and she certainly wasn’t a leader of the resistance. 

One of the main themes was how women’s voices and experiences are lost to history.  They couldn’t have gotten multiple seasons out of that theme, so they made it June’s Tale. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s a different thing.  IMHO. 

Yeah, really. Also, if we're going to use the argument that they are relying on something written "decades ago", then allow me to point out that this is NOT the book. We left that territory 2 years ago. Since then it's gone off to Millerland. 

The book was very good, but this is not the book, this is a TV show whose source material ran out. 

Edited August 1, 2019 by mamadrama

[mamadrama]

34 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

The reason I like this episode is that Fred's arrested, but more importantly, the WORLD is finally being introduced.

The world? Mexico and their problems were introduced in S1 and we've heard nary a peep since...Canada seems to pop up when one of the writers suddenly remembers that there used to be other characters, but it's far and in between. We've been "introduced" to America, but only through the eyes of Spy Guy. And then there was the sorry council who came to talk about Hollichole...and then immediately dropped away like they never existed.

Point being, there have been MANY opportunities for the show to give us the "world" and they have squandered those. I have zero hope that this will prove to be any different.

Edited August 1, 2019 by mamadrama

[greekmom]

On 7/31/2019 at 1:23 AM, chocolatine said:

- If Canada was seriously "negotiating" with Fred and other Gilead honchos over returning the refugees, and has hosted him on official visits before, why are they all of a sudden allowing Tuello to arrest him for war crimes? Did they get any new information recently?

This show is so frustrating.

In my opinion I think the reason Fred was captured this time was he was not invited into Canada by authorities, it wasn't a state visit or negotiations on said Holly (I'm not calling her Nicole).  It could be seen as his trying to deflect from Gilead therefore all bets are off.

Tuello may have filed the necessary paperwork off screen to be able to arrest Fred. 

I know everything has been filmed this year but next season I would like to see part of an episode in either Hawaii or Alaska and how the Americans are faring now that they have been reduced to only a few states.

Edited August 1, 2019 by greekmom
forgot to add next season remark

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

The world? Mexico and their problems were introduced in S1 and we've heard nary a peep since...Canada seems to pop up when one of the writers suddenly remembers that there used to be other characters, but it's far and in between. We've been "introduced" to America, but only through the eyes of Spy Guy. And then there was the sorry council who came to talk about Hollichole...and then immediately dropped away like they never existed.

Point being, there have been MANY opportunities for the show to give us the "world" and they have squandered those. I have zero hope that this will prove to be any different.

Mexico was the most idiotic episode of this show EVER.  I try to pretend it never happened.  😉

They have wasted Canada, and wasted the actors in Canada by not having them be involved with the world.  They have TV, phones, ability to travel, the internet, and if "the world" was there we would be seeing Moira giving interviews daily about Jezebels, and instead of going to stupid local protests?  Putting herself out there on social media and tearing this shit apart.

Luke wouldn't be ranting at his Canadian benefactors either, he would be screaming for the return of his wife and child, and also helping the US fight Gilead, doing interviews, getting a youtube channel up interviewing new escapees, etc.

I don't CARE to watch endless Moira/Luke/Erin/Emily pain and reentry, if they are simply going to sit on their asses and talk about that, instead of actually DOING something.  They are free, they can, why aren't they?

Yes, the WORLD, because in this episode we saw and heard that:

1. Canada was cooperating with the USA in the arrest of Gilead Commander.
2. That Commander would be put on trial for numerous war crimes in a WORLD Court.
3. Spy Guy is working with Serena which nearly has to bring in more story of the USA, it will start, at least, to be fleshed out.
4. The WORLD wants to know about the power structure inside Gilead, and now they have a captured Commander who is a weasel, a weakling, and a coward, and will probably spill his guts to them for a pillow in his cell, let alone to avoid a death penalty.

It's all set up to finally open up this story in a real way.  The door is open and they better walk through it.

Add in the Marthas and Nick being in the wars now, and hopefully we will get some stories beyond the east coast and the colonies soon too, including those still fighting all over Gilead to get their country back.  Those "supplies" the Marthas are getting on that shipment are probably weapons or ammunition as well, so hopefully we will see more of that system as well.

[Umbelina]

28 minutes ago, BrindaWalsh said:

Yes, I agree with everything on this, and I tried to explain it and couldn't so simply deleted it.   You captured her arc beautifully.  Especially her realizations that Nicole as nothing more than a political tool for her husband, her visit to Canada and her realizations about how perfectly pathetic Fred Waterford truly is (and that's just one description in a long list of adjectives).  

However, I still don't get how I'm supposed to feel about her?  I don't know that the show is portraying her as a character we're supposed to have sympathy for -  because she's ultimately not sympathetic, no matter how many regrets she may have.  Especially when those regrets come from a completely selfish and egocentric point of view.   

Actually, that TooFab review I posted earlier goes into the whole Serena thing very well.  https://toofab.com/2019/07/31/the-handmaids-tale-recap-death-consequences-change/

As far as how we are "supposed" to feel?  I don't know or really care, I feel the way I feel, but I get what you mean, what's the show doing, what's the intent here?

I think last season it all fell apart on this show, and the only "intent" of the showrunner was to give them all emmy episodes, and nothing really hung together.  This season they seem to be finally pulling some of those loose strings together to make a somewhat cohesive "whole."

This show, to their credit here, has always written complicated characters (probably because Atwood did.)  Luke, for example, was no hero, he cheated on his wife, he resisted leaving Gilead because they weren't taking HIS job or HIS money, etc.  June was was also not squeaky clean either, she helped break up a marriage, she does stupid shit all the time, until deciding to try to get more children out, she was pretty selfish, caring mostly about her own children.  (etc)

Serena is also a complex character, evil at times, decent at times, her only consistency is really her intelligence, she's not stupid.  Her most decent move was letting Nicole go, her evil moves are much more numerous.  I do think she actually believed all the religious/ecology stuff she was preaching.  I do think she really wanted a baby.  I do think she's known for a while how corrupt Gilead actually is, how far from the ideal she dreamed of, but she was both stuck and still caught up with her demons.  We know she missed having sex, and certainly missed reading and writing and being consulted as well. 

She's a Phyllis Schlafly, a Tammy Faye Baker, a mix of any super conservative religious woman who want to drag women back to a role of subservience and "traditional values."  I don't think she ever intended or expected women to be forbidden to read or write, but she was probably all for "no money of their own or jobs" and definitely one of those who hated science, and blamed the intelligentsia for the world's problems.  As far as handmaids?  The show hasn't made much clear about her role in that, except to tell us "the ceremony" was all devised by men.  Serena's plan for herself was almost certainly to get other "fallen" women to redeem themselves by bearing children for her and the other righteous woman, but I don't she thought that would involve her husband or other husbands actually having sex with them, and certainly not while the wife held their arms. 

I think she did want sex outside of marriage stopped, but I really doubt she expected to be denied sex herself, under the "sex is only for procreation and all else is sin" banner.   She's probably the most complicated character in this tale, because she wrote herself into her own doom and misery, along with, of course, the other women and children of this government.
 

[Baltimore Betty]

I was disappointed that they killed Winslow off, I wanted to see Fred get pressured in to having a "romance" with him just to get ahead in his career and have a dirty little secret/ultimate sin.

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I was disappointed that they killed Winslow off, I wanted to see Fred get pressured in to having a "romance" with him just to get ahead in his career and have a dirty little secret/ultimate sin.

Hopefully, this show's love of flashbacks will have lots of Winslow scenes.  After all, Fred will be sitting in a cell for a long time, he's got to think about something!

Winslow could be like Dexter's father, popping in all the time.  (I hope!  Ha!)

[go4luca]

Unpopular opinion in this forum, but I'm so glad I still enjoy this show.  The cast is brilliant.  Is the show flawed?  Definitely.  Am I over the June nose hairs CU?  Yep, but Eleven from Stranger Things indoctrinated me to a similar signature camera CU so...🤷‍♀️

I thoroughly enjoyed "Liars".  All hail the Martha network.  That was all kinds of fun to watch and I've had Kate Bush's Cloudbusting on repeat ever since.

Wish they could have reached this level earlier in the season but hoping they maintain it in the final upcoming 2 episodes.

I'll show myself out the side exit.  😉

Edited August 2, 2019 by go4luca
typo

[Ms Blue Jay]

I really liked the episode!

I haven't felt this way in a long time.  I loved Kate Bush's "Cloudbusting" too.  I will definitely listen to "Hounds of Love", thank you for the recommendation.  I love Tori Amos so this song felt influential towards her style.

I still say that episode where they had June sulking on the floor of the hospital for the entire time is one of the worst episodes of any show I've EVER seen.  But I liked this one!

Edited August 1, 2019 by Ms Blue Jay

[Ashforth]

6 hours ago, BrindaWalsh said:

For people debating what made June snap, I thought that the answer was much more basic than that - I figured that Meloni was going for anal rape - one that would be violent, painful, and potentially injury inducing.  And yes, June has been raped month after month, through a ritual, but not in this way - to our knowledge.  That was my guess about why she snapped and fought like hell.

When Lawrence handed her the gun and said "they're coming for us, are we certain that they mean June and her commander?  Not Lawrence and his wife?  I feel like they set the stage for it to go either way.  

I also thought that what made June snap out of her acquiescence with the rape was that Winslow was going for anal. The fight, not "realistic" for sure, but it's pretty surprising what people can do when fighting for their lives. The weapon she used to stab him? That was confusing. Did she pull it from his jacket or her coat? For a hot second I thought it was the broken off stiletto heel of her shoe. When the Martha picked it up, I thought it looked like a box cutter. 

I thought the show missed an opportunity for a signature June smart-off when right before the death blow, Winslow said, "my children..." Why didn't June say, "What about mine, motherfucker?"

I took Lawrence saying "they're coming for us," to mean him and June because June had killed Winslow, but it would also translate to everyone in the household because, Gilead.

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

1. The WORLD wants to know about the power structure inside Gilead, and now they have a captured Commander who is a weasel, a weakling, and a coward, and will probably spill his guts to them for a pillow in his cell, let alone to avoid a death penalty.

There could not be a better description of Fred. Kudos!

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Serena is also a complex character, evil at times, decent at times, her only consistency is really her intelligence, she's not stupid.  Her most decent move was letting Nicole go, her evil moves are much more numerous.  I do think she actually believed all the religious/ecology stuff she was preaching.  I do think she really wanted a baby.  I do think she's known for a while how corrupt Gilead actually is, how far from the ideal she dreamed of, but she was both stuck and still caught up with her demons.  We know she missed having sex, and certainly missed reading and writing and being consulted as well. 

She's a Phyllis Schlafly, a Tammy Faye Baker, a mix of any super conservative religious woman who want to drag women back to a role of subservience and "traditional values." 

Only one note on this, she wanted to drag *other* women back to a role of subservience and "traditional values." She never imagined it would happen to her.

Edited August 2, 2019 by Ashforth

[aussieinsydney]

Great episode! Finally some real action and progression in storyline. Also, I'd forgotten how much I love Kate Bush! 😍

[lucindabelle]

party of one

I still care about Serena.

I'll tiptoe away now.

[Ashforth]

1 minute ago, lucindabelle said:

party of one

I still care about Serena.

I'll tiptoe away now.

I'll sit at your table! I make no apologies for finding Serena Joy the most fascinating character in this series. 

[go4luca]

I hope it isn't Nick who is coming after Lawrence and/or June.  Could that be the season ending cliffhanger?

[ferjy]

15 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Me too. And really, I want to see a show about the Marthas and their network.

I was just thinking that. The Marthas are a hoot, I'd love to see more of them, beyond kowtowing to June. In fact, end this farce already and give us a spinoff with the Marthas in Gilead. Frankly, I’m surprised they haven’t elaborated on their network.

[ferjy]

11 hours ago, Trillian said:

I was so very thrilled when the Martha (sans muffins lol) said “you jumped onto a train that was already moving and now you’re Che fucking Guevara”?  I actually cheered out loud.

I couldn't enjoy it as much as I might have because the way these guys are writing it, you knew that the Marthas would cave and June would sneer her smug face before the end of the scene.  Really, there's no anticipation anymore.