Book vs. Series: On The Shelf

[quarks]

50 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Netflix tends to cancel most shows after the third season (if they make it that far), but there are of course the exceptions, like The Crown and Stranger Things. If they can keep the quality up and the book fan base happy, and if the producer wants to continue they could be such an exception.

Alienating the books fans may not be helpful.

It might not be helpful, but:

a) At least some book fans (including me), are not in favor of sticking with Eloise and Sir Philip.

b) Given the combination of first season events on the show, and offscreen events involving Marina's actress, it is very difficult to see a path forward for Sir Philip and Eloise that will not involve negative publicity and potentially alienating viewers.

c) And from Netflix' point of view, the number of show viewers vastly outnumbers the number of book readers. 

And by vastly, I mean that Netflix has reported that Bridgerton season 1 - only season 1 - garnered 113,300,000 complete views.  All eight Bridgerton books and the four prequels have, as of mid-2023, sold around 17,000,000 copies Those are amazing book sale numbers, no question, and full congratulations to Julia Quinn, but represent only 15% of the show numbers. And again, that's a contrast between just one season of Bridgerton and fourteen books.

Complicating the issue further, as per HarperCollins, about 750,000 of those book sales came between December 25, 2020, and January 15, 2021 - right after the first season was released, and HarperCollins saw another sales spike after the second season was released. Which is to say, at this point, the show is driving book sales - not the other way around. 

And sure, that doesn't account for library reads, which would certainly increase the book reader numbers - but those Netflix numbers also don't account for how many people are in the room watching the screen, which is presumably at least sometimes more than one person.

So I think it's fairly safe to say that, even accounting for library readers, the book fan base probably represents around 10 to 15% of total viewers - and that might be optimistic. Not nothing, certainly, but maybe not enough to make this a huge concern for Netflix executives. 

[RachelKM]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

It might not be helpful, but:

a) At least some book fans (including me), are not in favor of sticking with Eloise and Sir Philip.

b) Given the combination of first season events on the show, and offscreen events involving Marina's actress, it is very difficult to see a path forward for Sir Philip and Eloise that will not involve negative publicity and potentially alienating viewers.

This. I read all of the books, many of them more than once in the since the early 2000s. And I really like To Sir Phillip with Love (it's not my favorite book but I like it.)  That said, I completely agree that sticking with the books would be terrible for so many reasons. 

I'll be honest, I would probably skip that season if they tried. 

I want them to follow the books generally; but the only changes that have really pissed me off have been the ones that violate the norms of the era in a way that would have been viewed beyond scandalous in the time (the actual engagement of Anthony and Edwina, for instance). 

In the case of Eloise and Phillip, the changes already made would make following the books would be beyond the pale  in terms of the scandal.  It was a little unusual for the female cousin of Philip's late wife to begin writing him regularly.

But, on the show, Eloise barely even met Marina more that a handful of times. And she met Marina in the context of being her brother's fiancée who attempted to trap him and was publicly outed for it.  What possible reason would she have to write to Phillip? 

And, as I've said before, I don't really think the book would lend itself to the structure of this show. Bridgerton the TV series expanded the view of the book beyond the Bridgerton child of each book and his or her love interest. It had added Queen Charlotte and and expanded the perspective of Lady Danvers. The show is more of an ensemble about the Ton rather than about the 8 Bridgerton children and their eventual spouses. 

Eloise's book is completely isolated from the Ton and the rest of her family by plot necessity.  So, unless we want a story in which the only face we know well is that of Eloise and the remaining cast is two small children and a man we saw briefly in two scenes, it would have to change. 

But, I don't know, maybe they can find a way. I can't picture it. 

[magdalene]

no point.

Edited December 27, 2023 by magdalene

[Jane Tuesday]

I'm fine with them changing Eloise's story, but I'd also be totally fine with them doing her book story, but with different names. Would it really matter if she started writing to her dead cousin Melissa's husband, Felix?

The one thing I definitely DON'T want is a continuation of the Theo "relationship". It's boring, clichéd, and WAY too unrealistic, even for this show.

Then again, Show Eloise is boring, clichéd, and WAY too unrealistic, so they could skip her romance altogether, as far as I'm concerned. 

[PRgal]

Finally reading the books (okay, I’m listening to the audiobook) and can only picture the actors in the roles rather than using my imagination.  I can’t be alone in this right?

[RachelKM]

NO NO NO NO! I don't want the lovely young man Francesca has shown interest in to be John  Stirling.  He seems like a character I will adore and I do not want to see him have Book!John's fate.  I don't recall that we got very much time with him in the book and I believe it was mostly if not exclusively through Michael's perspective.  I don't want to become attached to this John and then have him die.

Edited May 16 by RachelKM

[twoods]

I just came to post the same thought. He seems so sweet and kind, and I don’t want to see him die. That is too cruel.

[RachelKM]

50 minutes ago, twoods said:

I just came to post the same thought. He seems so sweet and kind, and I don’t want to see him die. That is too cruel.

I was so charmed by him bringing Francesca the music in the notations she suggested.  And her face when John did it was totally beaming. 

I always found When He Was Wicked a little uncomfortable because of Michael seeing and falling near instantly in love with his cousin's wife literally at the wedding.  I don't think that will feel any less ick when I know and like John.

[gerdialiaVA]

This is so wrong having Francesca's courtship added to the show. She never appeared so much before When he was wicked. 

[quarks]

All of this. John is great - that bit with the music was just the sweetest, most romantic thing ever, and Francesca just looked so happy and delighted.

And the actors are so cute together. That bit where they were able to sit silently on the couch and just be happy together without talking - that's incredibly difficult for actors to pull off, and yet, those two managed it, making the pairing completely credible even before John turned into the single most romantic person on this show.

I mean, kudos for showing me just why Francesca is going to have a hard time falling for anyone else, let alone this cousin we still haven't met, but wow, Bridgerton is going to have to deliver one hell of a Michael (or Michaela) to get me on board after that music scene. 

[scarynikki12]

I think the reason Benedict is once again getting a mistress is to set up his story with Sophie. Whatever else they change I think they're going to keep him wanting to initially make her his mistress and her refusal out of a desire not to repeat her mother's life. Him having multiple mistresses before Sophie enters his life is to set up that part of the story.

[quarks]

So, since we're chatting about what this season is doing to the future storylines of various characters, can we talk about Eloise?

Because let's ignore the BTS stuff causing potential problems for a future Eloise/Sir Philip romance, and instead look just at Eloise in the show:

Season one: Eloise continually tells us that she is dreading her upcoming season; tells Daphne that she is terrified of marriage/having children, and has never forgotten the trauma of Hyacinth's birth. She speaks to exactly three men who are not directly related to her: two servants, and the Queen's secretary Brimsley.  She otherwise shows no interest in men; she's focused on books, women's rights, her friendship with Penelope, and unmasking Lady Whistledown.

Season two: Eloise again frequently speaks out against marriage, dodges and avoids all of her suitors, and at balls and other social events, makes a point of seeking out Penelope. She does become friends with Theo - but immediately ends that friendship right after their almost kiss. Eloise says she's acting out of concern for Theo and not wanting to get him into trouble - but that's after multiple characters have assured us that just being alone with a man is enough to cause scandal, even if absolutely nothing physical has happened, and after we saw Portia successfully force Cousin Jack and Prudence into an engagement because the two of them were found alone together. 

Eloise knows about Cousin Jack and Prudence, and knows that by Society's rules, she really shouldn't be hanging out with Theo, especially unchaperoned. And yet she does - right up until the possibility of a kiss/romance.

Season three, part one: Eloise continues to speak out against marriage, and tells Francesca that she's glad Francesca is around, since that means Violet isn't completely focused on finding Eloise a husband. She reads Emma, with its focus on platonic relationships between women, instead of the more romantic Pride and Prejudice, and tells Colin (and us) that that's exactly why she's reading the book. Once again, she avoids suitors, but does make a point of trying to joke with and entertain her fellow debutantes - successfully, proving that she can be very charming in company if she likes. She makes friends with Cressida and continually approaches Cressida at balls, and is frequently seen giving Penelope longing looks.

It's a huge contrast to the other women in Bridgerton, most of whom have shown at least some interest in men. The exceptions so far have all been minor characters - the housekeepers (although Varley found Lord Featherington 2 to be quite charming) and a few of the maids (although some of them were caught eyeing Simon or trying to listen to Simon and Daphne). Even not very interested in sex Prudence showed some interest in Lord Featherington 2 - I mean, sure, that was less attraction and more "yay, I'm getting married," but some interest was there. 

So I have to ask: what, exactly, is the show doing with Eloise?

It's possible, of course, that Bridgerton just wants to ensure that Eloise never really looks interested until she finally meets her endgame match - somewhat similar to the way that Francesca looked uncomfortable right up until the moment when she met John and was all, ok, THIS GUY GETS ME. And of course Bridgerton is also using Eloise to comment on the hypocrisy of the ton and, along with Benedict, as the rebel character.

But it's increasingly hard for me to read show Eloise as anything but queer. Granted, I don't know where her storyline is going, or if the show has any plans to completely drop the Sir Philip plot. And I can absolutely buy that show Eloise might well be interested in striking up a purely intellectual/platonic exchange of letters with a man.

But with each episode, I'm finding it harder and harder to see Show Eloise as interested in any sort of romantic relationship with a man, making me wonder if that's the intention here.

[RachelKM]

43 minutes ago, quarks said:

But with each episode, I'm finding it harder and harder to see Show Eloise as interested in any sort of romantic relationship with a man, making me wonder if that's the intention here.

I have not read Eloise as queer as much as hating social confinement of any kind. I have not seen her longing looks at Pen as being anything other than missing her friend and I actually did think she was a bit attracted to Theo but not in any serious way.  That was certainly ambiguous, though.

If the show did decide to establish her as queer, I wouldn't find it inconsistent.  I just haven't gotten that impression and it feels more like she would not be opposed to a relationship with a man if it didn't come with the confines of marriage as Regency Era Ton woman. 

Eloise has immense freedom in her current existence by the standards of the time (a thing she acknowledge in this most recent season).  She is from a wealthy family that, while they may wish for her to marry in that they think it would lead to a more fulfilling life for her, would never press her to marry. Her mother and brother allow her far more freedom of movement than most unmarried women of her time and her family is wealthy enough that she would never been a burden on them if she did not wed.

In short, to me, she is more Emma as Emma professes herself to be than it turns out Emma actually is. In fact, Eloise may find she likes the book less when "I have no need to wed" Emma turns out to be in love after all the with man who she claimed was merely a friend and marries him.

So I think show Eloise could realistically fall for a man. But it would have to be some implausibly liberal gentleman who, despite the world he has been raised in, does not view his wife as HIS in the property sense and values her and her independence.  It is a favorite total fairytale of a trope in romance novels.

[scarynikki12]

One book change I would welcome is if only select Bridgertons learn about Pen being Lady Whistledown. Book Lady W wrote far less inflammatory gossip about the ton and Pen barely survived societal ruin. Show Lady W has been vicious* to the point I cannot see Pen, and anyone associated with her, not getting permanently exiled from the ton. What I can see is Colin finding out, and dealing with that before their Happily Ever After, and Pen makes a point to be kinder in her column. 

*I'm not arguing if she was or wasn't justified just that they were more vicious than the book version.

[quarks]

Book Pen was also saved by having the powerful Duke of Hastings step forward right after the reveal and applaud, basically daring anyone there to criticize, followed by most of the other Bridgertons (except for Eloise and presumably Benedict, Sophie and Francesca, who weren't there) and the Featheringtons.

My guess is that Queen Charlotte will be taking on that applause role, saving Pen from exile. The real question - ok, my real question - is how exactly the show is going to shift from three years of Queen Charlotte frustrated that Lady Whistledown hasn't been entirely supportive of the Queen and the Crown, to Queen Charlotte applauding Lady Whistledown. It can be done - we've seen Queen Charlotte frequently change her mind before - but I'm wondering how it will be done.

[Roseanna]

I think the book about Pen and Colin is better than the third season. They both are older (she 28 year old and he 33).

He has been travelling for years, so it's more believable that he had developed and begins to see her in a different light.

Even more important, Pen hasn't done things to Marina (who didn't even exist) and Eloise she did in the first and second season.

Yet, they are problems enough, him searching for a meaning in life, and her having to deal about the blackmail about her secret identity.  

 

[LittlePeas3]

Random musings: Does anyone else thing they are going to have 2 Bridgerton weddings this season? 
Evidently Pen and Coling, but also Francesca and her first husband? 

[Ohiopirate02]

7 minutes ago, LittlePeas3 said:

Random musings: Does anyone else thing they are going to have 2 Bridgerton weddings this season? 
Evidently Pen and Coling, but also Francesca and her first husband? 

I don't mind seeing Francesca and her first husband.  They may not be endgame, but it would be odd to not show it.  

[libgirl2]

And maybe we can get something more going on Benedict? 

 

Question.... as I binge the shows and really need to go back and rewatch, haven't we seen or had mention of the Smythe Smith Quartet? 

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

And maybe we can get something more going on Benedict? 

 

Question.... as I binge the shows and really need to go back and rewatch, haven't we seen or had mention of the Smythe Smith Quartet? 

I believe there was a reference to them last season.  

[quarks]

If memory serves, the Smythe Smiths were briefly mentioned in Queen Charlotte.

 

[libgirl2]

11 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I believe there was a reference to them last season.  

Thank you, I knew there was something but very brief. I enjoy their books and it would be fun to possibly see them in a spin off. 

[Roseanna]

In the book Pen and Colin had sex before marriage, so I expect the same to happen also in the show. 

[libgirl2]

17 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

In the book Pen and Colin had sex before marriage, so I expect the same to happen also in the show. 

I think they will as well. 

[Roseanna]

In the book Pen's family lawyer accidently read her writings and arranged their printing, distribution and payments. After he died, she continued independently. 

I think that's are a better explanation than in the show where we are supposed to believe that 17-year old Pen did all by herself.  

[scarynikki12]

Still no Sophie sighting but at least we know we're getting the masquerade ball and Benedict's story next season so I can only hope it happens in the first episode. I wonder if they'll keep the time jump after meeting Ben or if they'll just truncate it? Also people on social media were saying Cressida's mom's name is Araminta but we got nothing of that, or any kind of Sophie related hints, this season so I wonder if someone just made that up.

I didn't want to post in the episode 8 thread because it's potential spoilers but I get why they had Francesca react to Michaela the way she did. Yes, book Fran genuinely loved John and only fell for Michael later but her story is also about how the love they shared, while wonderful, did not have passion. She finds passion with Michael and that allows for each relationship to stand on its own rather than offering the opportunity to compare. With regard to the show, I think it will also go a long way toward making non-book readers ok with Michaela when the time comes AS LONG AS they make clear Fran's committed to John even while be attracted to his cousin.

Years ago I speculated Fran would not be straight and yay I was right! I'm never right, let me have this. I'm kind of hoping they run her and Eloise concurrently for season 5 which will give Fran enough time to have at least one kid with John before his death and give the Not-Twins time together.

I'm also going to need the show's decision maker to get it together and give us actual Anthony and Kate stuff. I know Bailey's availability was limited due to the million things he was filming at the same time but they can only write Anthony and Kate traveling the world so many times before it looks like he should just abdicate to Benedict. I loved Anthony's scene with Gregory last season and his scene with Ben and Colin this season so I'm not asking to see him at clubs or the House of Lords but just some family moments scattered in each episode. And why not let Kate and Violet have fun doing viscountess things together? It's nice of Kate to let Violet continue doing the bulk of it but it would be nice to see her get involved when the family finds themselves in a jam. I'm worried we'll get even less Anthony and Kate next season or, worse, they'll get written out because Violet's there to do the viscountess stuff. 

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Yes, book Fran genuinely loved John and only fell for Michael later but her story is also about how the love they shared, while wonderful, did not have passion. She finds passion with Michael and that allows for each relationship to stand on its own rather than offering the opportunity to compare. 

Of course the genre demands that all romances must be basically similar, at least in that they are based on passion, but it would be nice if different people would have a life of different kind. Fransesca would be happy with her non-passion marriage with John, Benedict would continue threesome or try other kinds of sex, Eloise would be asexual (or it would be she who has relationship with Michaela!).

[LittlePeas3]

Does anyone find that this show is now becoming more about representation of all types of people and being only tangibly related to the books?  I can get past the people of colour having titles, even though it didn't happen in that time period, but I am struggling with the Benedict threesome and now Michael being Michaela. 

 

I also get why they did Colin's story before Benedict's, but I hate the filler they used.  I was looking forward to Sophie and I really enjoyed that storyline in the book.

[libgirl2]

9 hours ago, LittlePeas3 said:

Does anyone find that this show is now becoming more about representation of all types of people and being only tangibly related to the books?  I can get past the people of colour having titles, even though it didn't happen in that time period, but I am struggling with the Benedict threesome and now Michael being Michaela. 

 

I also get why they did Colin's story before Benedict's, but I hate the filler they used.  I was looking forward to Sophie and I really enjoyed that storyline in the book.

I understand that. It was a bit much with the threesome, all I could think is please bring on Sophie and fast! 

I don't mind Michaela so much but I would rather see that develop and the reasons why when that moment arrives not on Francesca and John's wedding day. 

[quarks]

10 hours ago, LittlePeas3 said:

Does anyone find that this show is now becoming more about representation of all types of people and being only tangibly related to the books?  I can get past the people of colour having titles, even though it didn't happen in that time period, but I am struggling with the Benedict threesome and now Michael being Michaela. 

 

No, but that's because from my perspective what you're describing started in season one, which had a lot of stuff that was only tangibly related to the books. Season two not only had a lot of stuff that was only tangibly related to the books (Lord Featherington Two, the Mondriches, and Queen Charlotte and George), but also made huge changes to the plot of The Viscount Who Loved Me.

And back in the first season, Benedict had a threesome with two women and met a gay artist in an open marriage. During the second season, he continued to be strongly queer-coded in both seasons one and two - to the point where Bridgerton was getting accused of queer-baiting. 

So I just continue to see this as show Bridgerton being Bridgerton. I'm expecting similar changes to occur in future seasons.