S09.E05: Paradise Lost?

[Yeah No]

On 7/12/2019 at 2:02 PM, Ilovepie said:

I watch Younger too, but I wouldn't qualify Jamie as having BDE. On Younger, Lauren accuses Kelsey of having BDE when she uses her real job title on dating apps and tells her it's too intimidating to potential guys. I think of someone more Alpha like Jon (fiance of Dr. Jess) as having BDE, not someone like Jamie - he's too quiet and unassuming, not to mention snarky and sullen when fighting with E. If there was a term for LDE, I would use Fireman Ryan as the prototype 😜

Actually now that you mention Jon, I agree with you that he far more than Jamie has BDE.  Jon is kind of like the definition of BDE.  I remember thinking that he was too much man for Molly.  She would always be in competition with him for who has the most BDE because she thought she was the shit.  Next to Jon, Jamie looks like a weak limp noodle, LOL.

[qtpye]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Actually now that you mention Jon, I agree with you that he far more than Jamie has BDE.  Jon is kind of like the definition of BDE.  I remember thinking that he was too much man for Molly.  She would always be in competition with him for who has the most BDE because she thought she was the shit.  Next to Jon, Jamie looks like a weak limp noodle, LOL.

His BDE turned off Molly but did draw in Dr. Blondie. I hope he was worth losing what was for her a pretty sweet and lucrative gig. 

[qtpye]

6 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Did I miss that?  I don't remember them asking Matt specifically about the height difference.  All I remember is in the segment where the experts were deciding which couples to pick for the show that Dr. Pepper said that Matt had mentioned to her previously that he had dated a woman that was 5'2" in the past so she thought he would be OK with it.  I remember thinking that was a big assumption to make and wondered why she didn't ask him if he would be OK being matched with one now.  I also remember thinking that this was the choice for most ridiculous couple because the other option in question was the woman that was a professional organizer matched with a messy guy.  Either one would have been a risky match, but of course I think that was by design.

You might be right. From what I learned from Jaimie and Big Red is that people actually lie to get on this third rate reality show. I think even last season Kate lied about her smoking. 

Matt probably lied or made it seem like he was open to dating a shorter woman when he was not. That’s kinda on him if he lied but I am not sure if he did.

In all fairness, a 5’2” woman probably seems like a giant to Dr. Pepper.

I think Amber’s 80k salary probably includes the money she is getting for the show. I have no clue what they get paid but there had been speculation that it is in the 20-25k range. The grooms might even get higher since they are harder to come by. There has also been talk about a bonus if they say yes on decision day and stay together for about a month.

So, let’s speculate that they are both getting around 40-50k combined for the show.  This will be added to the probably around 50k she gets from teaching. Amber did not talk about what they are getting from the show on camera but she is probably implying that it’s enough for him to start a business and not have to go overseas for a basketball contract, at least for the first year.

Matt got angry off camera because :

1. It took away his get out of jail free card, that was his go to exit strategy for getting out of an unwanted marriage without looking like the bad guy.

2. It kind of reveals, in front of the crew, that he has no income besides what is coming from the show.

I have officially put way too much thought into this stupidity.

Edited July 14, 2019 by qtpye

[Ilovepie]

1 hour ago, qtpye said:

I have officially put way too much thought into this stupidity.

You and everyone else on this forum @qtpye! Also, I find it fascinating that of all the things to discuss related to this episode, Amber’s salary has generated the most discussion on this forum this week, so you are definitely not alone in any sense! 😋

[Kareem]

6 hours ago, qtpye said:

...

Matt got angry off camera because :

1. It took away his get out of jail free card, that was his go to exit strategy for getting out of an unwanted marriage without looking like the bad guy.

2. It kind of reveals, in front of the crew, that he has no income besides what is coming from the show.

...

The first thing I thought of was that he was finished with basketball and wanted to settle down, with the detailing business possibly being more potential than paycheck at this point, that he panicked as he’s now married and to a wife who’s discussing baby names.  I thought maybe he ran it by her to get her reaction and not so much to be a ball breaker or for announcing an exit strategy.  Maybe he got scared and was falling back on the sure thing money-wise. It would explain his defensiveness regarding her thinking he needs to be taken care of.  He obviously has some kind of money to start the local business.    Hard to know with him because he plays it close but it seemed more like a misunderstanding than a kick to the curb to me this early on.  

[Lily247]

14 hours ago, Yeah No said:

Actually now that you mention Jon, I agree with you that he far more than Jamie has BDE.  Jon is kind of like the definition of BDE.  I remember thinking that he was too much man for Molly.  She would always be in competition with him for who has the most BDE because she thought she was the shit.  Next to Jon, Jamie looks like a weak limp noodle, LOL.

Jon, in my opinion, was so opposite of BDE I thought it was blatantly obvious. His desperation for Molly was kind of sad. He whined about her not wanting sex with him despite having a slutty past in college. He felt somehow threatened by Ryan the other douche. He made stupid comments about Ryans fiances ring size. Any guy with BDE would have given Molly the boot (or just ignored her) long before her verbal abuse surfaced. Quitting his job for a dating show takes the cake. The only guy on this show with BDE IMO was the tall guy from Texas who got matched with crazy Amber. And possibly the douche from Staten Island from the 2md season of this show. 

[Lily247]

On 7/12/2019 at 12:19 PM, Soup333 said:

Him saying disappointed in regards to anything is really telling. I don't think they'll make it, but any of us could have guessed that. I think we'll be more surprised if they make it.

I agree about Jamie/Doug. I think she sees him as necessary evil (he's not evil, but you know). She wants more kids, her brand is built off their marriage, some things the sponsors send them are for a man, etc. 

Doug is the kind of guy some women settle down with after they are done with their wild dating years. He is comfortable, very beta, lets her make all the decisions and be in charge. 

[Yeah No]

11 hours ago, qtpye said:

You might be right. From what I learned from Jaimie and Big Red is that people actually lie to get on this third rate reality show. I think even last season Kate lied about her smoking. 

I believe that but I wonder how Kate would have hid the smell of smoke from Dr. Pepper when she visited her at home.  Unless she never smokes at home (and I've known people like that).

11 hours ago, qtpye said:

Matt probably lied or made it seem like he was open to dating a shorter woman when he was not. That’s kinda on him if he lied but I am not sure if he did.

I kind of wonder whether that would really be a deal breaker for him if he was really crazy about a woman.  Probably not.  I don't necessarily think they lie about stuff like this to get on the show.  Some of them just don't want to close off any options in case they might miss out on "the one" over a point that wouldn't matter if they really clicked with the person.

12 hours ago, qtpye said:

Matt got angry off camera because :

1. It took away his get out of jail free card, that was his go to exit strategy for getting out of an unwanted marriage without looking like the bad guy.

2. It kind of reveals, in front of the crew, that he has no income besides what is coming from the show.

Matt said something to the effect that she publicly humiliated him, I presume by making him look like a charity case who is unable to take care of himself or whatever.  I don't know if I believe that, but even that would be a boneheaded reaction.  

5 hours ago, Kareem said:

The first thing I thought of was that he was finished with basketball and wanted to settle down, with the detailing business possibly being more potential than paycheck at this point, that he panicked as he’s now married and to a wife who’s discussing baby names.  I thought maybe he ran it by her to get her reaction and not so much to be a ball breaker or for announcing an exit strategy.  Maybe he got scared and was falling back on the sure thing money-wise. It would explain his defensiveness regarding her thinking he needs to be taken care of.  He obviously has some kind of money to start the local business.    Hard to know with him because he plays it close but it seemed more like a misunderstanding than a kick to the curb to me this early on.  

I would bet my bank account that he brought that up at the very least to put the brakes on and send a signal to her that she's moving in too fast for him.  At the worst it was a lame attempt at slipping in an exit strategy because he's not sure about the relationship.  I think it was more of a signal to let her know that he doesn't even know what he wants to do career-wise yet let alone with her.  Which of course is not what he told the experts or her in the beginning.  Back pedaling like that to me can only mean he's at the very least looking for an escape hatch just in case things don't work out.

[Lily247]

On 7/12/2019 at 11:34 AM, Ohwell said:

It that's true, then the "experts" were stupid.  It's one thing to have a sports buddy, but a totally different thing to be in a marriage.

I should also add that I realize that it's not just about height and Matt still might not have been attracted even is she was 5'9." The other side of that is maybe being short, she might not have wanted to be married to a guy so tall.   Of course, she definitely seems attracted to him so good for her.  Unfortunately, things might not work out for her.  I don't know is she had slowed her roll that things might be different because it's hard to read Matt.

I was confused by this pairing. I do not believe Amber's extensive knowledge of sports, teams, and players will make Matt lust after her. I think his request of a woman who "makes athletics a priority in her life" is code for a woman who takes care of her body, not necessarily a woman who watches football. I dated a basketball player once and I had zero clue of how the game worked, and it posed ZERO problem, in fact he thought it was cute how clueless I was in the game. Even though Matt would not be my type because of his height, (to me) it looks like he would have wanted a woman...less tomboyish.... than Amber. 

[Yeah No]

15 minutes ago, Lily247 said:

Jon, in my opinion, was so opposite of BDE I thought it was blatantly obvious. His desperation for Molly was kind of sad. He whined about her not wanting sex with him despite having a slutty past in college. He felt somehow threatened by Ryan the other douche. He made stupid comments about Ryans fiances ring size. Any guy with BDE would have given Molly the boot (or just ignored her) long before her verbal abuse surfaced. Quitting his job for a dating show takes the cake. The only guy on this show with BDE IMO was the tall guy from Texas who got matched with crazy Amber. And possibly the douche from Staten Island from the 2md season of this show. 

Wow, see I didn't see Jon that way at all.  I didn't see him as desperate for Molly in the least bit.  He was annoyed with her a lot and of course was miffed that she put him off because I am sure he's not used to that reaction from women, plus he put a lot on the line to go on the show, such as quitting his job.  Molly was so toxic with him it would have been hard for anyone not to argue with her.  And Dave from Texas was a total automaton with anti-BDE energy in my opinion.  And toxic, crazy, threatening to the point of restraining order Ryan from season 2?  BDE?  No way no how.  I guess YMMV.  

One of the famous men making the BDE list online was Tony Bourdain, the traveling TV chef that committed suicide last year.  Tony was not as confident in reality as he appeared.  He gave off a vibe but inside was not exactly the person that people saw him as.  He often said that he was actually shy.  But I get why people gave him the BDE label.  He was most certainly an alpha male that never seemed to have to work hard to find women.  And I'm sure he was confident in his ability in the bedroom.

[Yeah No]

26 minutes ago, Lily247 said:

Doug is the kind of guy some women settle down with after they are done with their wild dating years. He is comfortable, very beta, lets her make all the decisions and be in charge. 

Doug is so beta, he's practically gamma.

[LuvMyShows]

12 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

One of the famous men making the BDE list online was Tony Bourdain, the traveling TV chef that committed suicide last year.  Tony was not as confident in reality as he appeared.  He gave off a vibe but inside was not exactly the person that people saw him as.  He often said that he was actually shy.  But I get why people gave him the BDE label.  He was most certainly an alpha male that never seemed to have to work hard to find women.  And I'm sure he was confident in his ability in the bedroom.

I didn't watch Sex in the City, but I saw clips occasionally....didn't Big have BDE?   And whether you like their politics or not, both Nancy Pelosi and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez have BDE big-time.

[topanga]

On 7/12/2019 at 9:33 PM, Gem 10 said:

I think Amber would have taken anybody that wore pants, tall or short.  She just wants to be married.  The experts screwed up again, royally.  That was a ridiculous match.  What were they thinking?  They both liked basketball?

Aren't people picked for this show because they want to be married? Therefore, I fault the experts for matching Amber with someone who probably wouldn't be Matt's type. Although I didn't see the matchmaker special, so I don't know what Matt said his type is. 

16 hours ago, Kareem said:

The first thing I thought of was that he was finished with basketball and wanted to settle down, with the detailing business possibly being more potential than paycheck at this point, that he panicked as he’s now married and to a wife who’s discussing baby names.  I thought maybe he ran it by her to get her reaction and not so much to be a ball breaker or for announcing an exit strategy.  Maybe he got scared and was falling back on the sure thing money-wise. It would explain his defensiveness regarding her thinking he needs to be taken care of.

I'm sure basketball is the one thing Matt feels he can do well. But if we wanted to provide for his family and still be there with his family, surely he can find a decent job in the Charlotte area. If the detailing business doesn't take off, he can coach, he can teach PE, he can look for a front office job with the Hornets organization while playing in weekend basketball leagues for fun. Those jobs won't make him rich, but apparently, neither has playing basketball outside the U.S.

[Empress1]

10 hours ago, Lily247 said:

I think his request of a woman who "makes athletics a priority in her life" is code for a woman who takes care of her body, not necessarily a woman who watches football.

In straight men's online dating parlance, "a woman who takes care of herself" or "an active woman" is code for small to medium-sized. I've seen this in profiles by men of all shapes and sizes. When Matt and Amber were working out, he said he was glad they could work out together - and I'm not shading him for that; he was a professional athlete, it stands to reason that he wants someone he can share that with. (Plus, while I'm far from a professional athlete, I work out a lot and compete in things and want an active partner, so it would be hypocritical of me to shade him for it.)

[Elizzikra]

Quote

I believe that but I wonder how Kate would have hid the smell of smoke from Dr. Pepper when she visited her at home.  Unless she never smokes at home (and I've known people like that).

I believe Kate was a social smoker - she would have a cigarette when she was out for drinks. I don't think she was a routine smoker and probably didn't smoke at home. I thought it was blown out of proportion by douchey Luke, who wanted any excuse at all to not be with Kate.

[Soup333]

6 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

I believe Kate was a social smoker - she would have a cigarette when she was out for drinks. I don't think she was a routine smoker and probably didn't smoke at home. I thought it was blown out of proportion by douchey Luke, who wanted any excuse at all to not be with Kate.

I think she actually said as much after Luke made it seem as if she were a chain smoker. Luke was really saying anything at all to avoid making himself look bad. 

[Ohwell]

Even if Kate was a "social smoker" she still might have had the faint odor of smoke on her breath and on her clothes when she came home.  As someone whose nose is very sensitive to smoke. I can understand why Luke would be turned off if he detected a smell.  Luke was a douche, but I got a slovenly vibe from her. 

[Nowhere]

On 7/11/2019 at 3:19 PM, gonecrackers said:

He still could've backed off if he didn't find her attractive - I doubt he was raped LOL.

On 7/11/2019 at 3:53 PM, aphroditewitch said:

He doesn't care if he hurts her feelings, which is why he tore her down off camera. I'm so tired of this excuse, especially on the heels of last season. These men are not having sex with Amber, Kate, or any other woman to avoid hurt feelings. That is not a thing that is happening.

Men don’t ever get raped by women because we have nothing we can stick in their asses and we don’t have the strength to overpower them with a dildo. I’m sorry for being very direct but I’m sick of this excuse too. If a man has a full hard on, I’m thinking he wants sex. Otherwise, sex is impossible. Anybody ever heard of getting pumped and dumped? Men do this all the time. They have sex with a woman and never speak to her again. Yes, women do it too. But the point is, he didn’t have to be attracted to her or want a long term relationship with her to be horny. If he cared about her feelings he wouldn’t have had sex with her and would not have let her “attack him”, if that’s what happened. Fully agree with gonecrackers and aphroditewitch.

[Elizzikra]

50 minutes ago, Nowhere said:

Men don’t ever get raped by women because we have nothing we can stick in their asses and we don’t have the strength to overpower them with a dildo. I’m sorry for being very direct but I’m sick of this excuse too. If a man has a full hard on, I’m thinking he wants sex. Otherwise, sex is impossible. 

I could not disagree more. First - an erection is a biological response. Men can get them and not want sex - just ask any boy in algebra class who carries his math book in front of him when he goes to the board to solve a problem. Some women show physical signs of arousal when raped; some may even experience orgasm. It doesn’t equate to consent. Second, not all men are stronger than all women and it’s possible for a man to be overpowered not just through brute strength but through the use of drugs and or alcohol. Third, many other objects besides a penis or dildo can be used to rape someone. 

I’m not saying anyone on this show was raped or not but I think it’s categorically false to assert that men cannot be raped by women, though that belief is almost certainly one reason a male victim may choose not to come forward.

[watchingtvaddict]

Matt was super happy his wife enjoyed making out with him all the time when they first met. I don't think she forced him to do anything when it came to sex/being intimate. If he respected her and wasn't 100% attracted to her he could have stopped sex from happening but instead he probably saw her as an easy lay AND thinks its okay to have sex with his wife even if he doesn't plan on staying with her because she is his wife. 

[Nowhere]

8 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I could not disagree more. First - an erection is a biological response. Men can get them and not want sex - just ask any boy in algebra class who carries his math book in front of him when he goes to the board to solve a problem. Some women show physical signs of arousal when raped; some may even experience orgasm. It doesn’t equate to consent. Second, not all men are stronger than all women and it’s possible for a man to be overpowered not just through brute strength but through the use of drugs and or alcohol. Third, many other objects besides a penis or dildo can be used to rape someone. 

I’m not saying anyone on this show was raped or not but I think it’s categorically false to assert that men cannot be raped by women, though that belief is almost certainly one reason a male victim may choose not to come forward.

Great. Let’s start saying women have orgasms when they’re raped. Next we’ll say that if it’s legitimate rape a woman’s body has ways to shut that whole thing down so she doesn’t get pregnant. Oh yeah. That has been said and it’s bs. If you know someone who has had an orgasm while being violently raped, let’s keep that to ourselves. We don’t need the  rapists thinking we get turned on by it now.

Anyway, I’m talking about full grown men and full grown women, not women and little boys. Most perpetrators of male rape are other men. It would be kind of difficult for a woman to make a grown man penetrate her, completely against his will. It is not as difficult for a man to overpower a woman and penetrate her against her will. I don’t see men carrying rape whistles and pepper spray when they walk to their cars at night because of all the women that might rape them. But most women are legitimately scared of men. We are not on equal footing when it comes to rape. 

And this is way off topic.

The point was, Matt had sex because he wanted to, not because he was trying to spare anyone’s feelings.  

Btw, I’m not trying to offend anyone, including Elizzikra or any man who has been raped. It’s just a sensitive subject for many women and maybe should not be discussed here. 

[Elizzikra]

Quote

We are not on equal footing when it comes to rape. 

I never said they were. I only took issue with your statement that men cannot be raped by women. I think that is incorrect.

Quote

Let’s start saying women have orgasms when they’re raped. 

I didn't "start" saying that - it's not new. It's uncommon but it happens and it's totally irrelevant to the issue of rape, which is about consent and not about the body's biological response. I offered it up as a counterpoint to your statement that any man with a full erection wants to have sex.  I also thought that was incorrect.

From a reliable male source -"I wake up many times at 3 a.m. with a raging boner and I don't want to have sex. i just want to go back to sleep."

[Yeah No]

On 7/16/2019 at 3:56 PM, Nowhere said:

Men don’t ever get raped by women because we have nothing we can stick in their asses and we don’t have the strength to overpower them with a dildo. I’m sorry for being very direct but I’m sick of this excuse too. If a man has a full hard on, I’m thinking he wants sex. Otherwise, sex is impossible. Anybody ever heard of getting pumped and dumped? Men do this all the time. They have sex with a woman and never speak to her again. Yes, women do it too. But the point is, he didn’t have to be attracted to her or want a long term relationship with her to be horny. If he cared about her feelings he wouldn’t have had sex with her and would not have let her “attack him”, if that’s what happened. Fully agree with gonecrackers and aphroditewitch.

22 hours ago, Nowhere said:

Anyway, I’m talking about full grown men and full grown women, not women and little boys. Most perpetrators of male rape are other men. It would be kind of difficult for a woman to make a grown man penetrate her, completely against his will. It is not as difficult for a man to overpower a woman and penetrate her against her will. I don’t see men carrying rape whistles and pepper spray when they walk to their cars at night because of all the women that might rape them. But most women are legitimately scared of men. We are not on equal footing when it comes to rape. 

Female on male rape is a thing and is not that difficult to achieve under conducive circumstances.  It usually occurs in a "date rape" kind of situation under the influence of alcohol or some other substance.  It's usually where a woman "takes advantage" of a man who is either semi-conscious or unconscious at the time and has not given consent, as this article explains.  As we all know, an erection is a physiological response and happens whether or not the man's brain is giving consent to sex.  It can also be a case of coercion, usually with an older female exerting pressure on a younger male where there is an imbalance of power in the relationship and the young man feels forced into it.  So of course because of that it is quite a bit rarer than male on female rape, but it still exists.

[Drogo]

The "What is rape?" conversation has run its course. 

Topic, please.

[Mazzy]

On 7/10/2019 at 9:34 PM, Ohwell said:

I agree, Deonna always seems to be instructing Greg.  I liked her in the beginning but she really is beginning to annoy the hell out of me.

I am just catching up on this season, but I agree with this 100%. Deonna does NOT at all seem ready for a relationship. Sadly I see a lot of myself in her, but because of that I see her bad qualities. I think she didn't care much about being in a relationship, she enjoys "her" time rather than having to share it and do what others want to do, BUT I believe she gets lonely and bored and so she just wanted someone built in to her life to do stuff with but has no interest in him as an individual, just as a warm body to drag along when she's bored and wants to do something.

The difference between her and me (thank god!) is that I go all in with my man, and her body language is really strongly like seeming to have no interest in intimacy or really any affection. Even when this couple hugs she leans in with her shoulders like you'd hug a distant relative at a wedding, and keeps as much of her body from touching as possible.

[Mazzy]

Okay, again just catching up... But Iris getting upset about condoms? SHE is the virgin, not everyone else! So SHE needs to understand that other people are actually having sex. Also, as much as I like Iris and Keith, I do wonder how committed she really is because she came into this process knowing that she was going to be married and doing all the things married people do, yet she also knew that making a decision to sleep with someone was going to be a huge deal for her. With that in mind, she clearly had no intention of getting very intimate with her new husband very quickly and so her need to wait and see if this is really the person she wants to be with is exactly the opposite of what the process is supposed to be. She is supposed to be all in for the process, not just considering it as if she's been set up on an extended date.

[humbleopinion]

Iris is "acting" for the cameras for this basic cable show...get ready for more bad acting and emotional outbursts...

Bedside drawers are windows to the soul...joking....

Iris  will overplay her virgin card to follow her MAFS story line...so buckle up...

She should be happy to see Keith bags his groceries and kept it safe...

Edited July 20, 2019 by humbleopinion

[talktoomuch]

I would have been way more wary of his messy ass apartment than the condoms.