S08.E06: The Iron Throne

[proserpina65]

57 minutes ago, Drogo said:

He was screaming.
"Have you been down there?!  Have you seen?!  CHILDREN, little children, BURNED!"

The way she sounded- either like 1) a realistic leader who had no intention of trying to make everyone happy (and becoming the most popular dead person around in the process- TM Bronn) or 2) a tyrant - lies mainly in the difference between those who liked Daenerys and those who didn't.

I mostly liked Dany, and to me, she sounded like a tyrant.  Also, Jon's voice was raised but I wouldn't call that screaming.  But as I say, agree to disagree, so this is my final comment on that point.  I don't want to keep repeating myself.

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

Remember how Yara built her Iron fleet from the nonexisting wood on Iron Island???

Yara stole her Iron Fleet.  It was Euron who built a fleet on a bunch of islands without trees.

57 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It still makes no sense for citizen and noble of the North to be named king of the 6 Southern Kingdoms.  It would be like a Canadian citizen being POTUS.    

Except that he was already named King by all the other nobles there.  Only Sansa held out.  Makes perfect sense to me.  Hell, they could've chosen anyone they wanted.

54 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The whole speech was stupid.  Who cares about "stories" for a ruler?  I mean a good story helps but qualifications, experience and charisma are generally much more important.  

But, even if you did, Jon and Davos and possibly others had much better stories than Bran. 

It wasn't that Bran had that great of a story so much as he knew the stories of everyone who'd ever lived.  At least that's what I took away from it.  Ymmv of course.

46 minutes ago, taanja said:

The fucking wall fell down!

Part of the Wall fell down, not all of it.  It's hundreds of miles long.  And the whole Night's Watch thing was just to spare Jon's life.  When he got to Castle Black, there were wildlings there, not brothers of the Nights' Watch.

27 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I know.

That's why my full post said that making Brienne Master of Whispers makes as much sense as having a Citadel drop out as Grand Maester, a guy who doesn't understand the concept of interest as Master of Coin, Tyrion as Hand and Bran as King, i.e., no sense at all

Oh, that makes sense.  I apologize for misreading your post.  D'oh!

22 minutes ago, QuinnM said:

And apparently there weren't enough people canceling in protest before the final episode.

Yeah, all those people were cancelling in protest after Ned died, too.

[RealReality]

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Technically, once Bran is dead, the Lords of the 6 kingdoms will elect a new king.  Since the North is now independent, it would not have any say in that election, amIrite???

Yes, and boy will it suck for her if the next leader decides or runs on a platform of retaking the north....

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, Taget said:

Dany reduces one city to dust.  And that symbolism is what causes other cities to capitulate.

The other cities were going to capitulate anyway because Dany had a weapon of mass destruction and they didn't. Not to mention that there were no large armies left to oppose her rule anyway. There was no need whatsoever to kill any civilians in King's Landing if the point was to cow other cities into submission. Genghis Khan and other real life conquerors did it because they didn't have dragons who make fortifications and armies useless. Destroying all the Lannister forces in a few minutes would have done the trick. But the writers seemed so enamored with making Dany look Hitler that even someone like me who is not a fan of her at all was left with the impression that she was character assassinated.

[RealReality]

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The whole speech was stupid.  Who cares about "stories" for a ruler?  I mean a good story helps but qualifications, experience and charisma are generally much more important.  

But, even if you did, Jon and Davos and possibly others had much better stories than Bran.   

I think, at this point, to assume any multilevel strategic thinking on Tyrion's part is a stretch.  He simply drinks and comes up with bad ideas.   

I think a story is a big bonus if you have the charisma of a leader as well.  But ONLY a story?  With no vision, no real plan?  Dany was OTT, but leading with no plan seems like a poor idea too.

Even if the "stories" referenced were from the past, I think that makes someone a good advisor, but not so much a good leader.  Unless you're leading a storytime.

[DarkRaichu]

6 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Yes, and boy will it suck for her if the next leader decides or runs on a platform of retaking the north....

Speaking of propaganda / deterrent, Sansa should put a sign saying:

Stannis: died in the north
Bolton backed by Lannister: died in the north
Night King: died in the north
Next?

Edited May 20, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[Sakura12]

Since the North is such a fickle bunch, I really wonder how long Sansa's rule will be. The minute they don't like a decision she makes someone else will want to rule the North. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, RealReality said:

I think a story is a big bonus if you have the charisma of a leader as well.  But ONLY a story?  With no vision, no real plan?  Dany was OTT, but leading with no plan seems like a poor idea too.

Even if the "stories" referenced were from the past, I think that makes someone a good advisor, but not so much a good leader.  Unless you're leading a storytime.

Right.  Sam has a great story.  Forced to give up his birthright and join the NW.  Abused by his fellow brothers and the officers   Killed White Walker, killed Thenns Thenn, saved a woman and her baby from a monster of a father.  Went to the Citadel, cured grayscale, etc. ,etc. 

But, would any of that make him a good king?  Hells no!  

[Affogato]

7 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Since the North is such a fickle bunch, I really wonder how long Sansa's rule will be. The minute they don't like a decision she makes someone else will want to rule the North. 

They just need a strong presence in winterfell. Anyone remember which houses are left?

[Constantinople]

12 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Since the North is such a fickle bunch, I really wonder how long Sansa's rule will be. The minute they don't like a decision she makes someone else will want to rule the North. 

Part of me hopes that happens, she appeals to the South for help, and they say "Nope! You wanted to be independent! We're not interfering in your internal affairs"

Edited May 20, 2019 by Constantinople

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Part of e ope that happens, she appeals to the South for help, and they say "Nope! You wanted to be independent! We're not interfering in your internal affairs"

Bran (while smirking): "I saw that coming"

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Since the North is such a fickle bunch, I really wonder how long Sansa's rule will be. The minute they don't like a decision she makes someone else will want to rule the North. 

I would love to see that,  But, I'm not sure how fickle they really are.  They followed the KITN whose name was Stark for thousands of years, then followed Starks as WOTN for another 300. 

The fickleness seems to be a more recent thing and it wasn't totally without cause.  Pretty much everyone backed Ned and then Robb, until he was killed.  His mother's actions and his oathbreaking with Frey hurt his standing before that.

Then the Boltons had all the power and were extremely ruthless.  There was not true born Stark male to be LOWF, and Sansa had troubling Lannister and Bolton marriages.   After the BOTB, they got behind Jon, and declared him KITN.   So, I can understand them not getting too excited about backing a pair of questionable "Starks" in what seemed like a hopeless battle against an enemy who would flay them alive and probably do horrible things to their families if they lost.  

Then he sort of betrayed their trust (at least from their perspective) by bending the knee to Daenerys.  He had the authority to do that, but he clearly did not have a mandate, and if the people knew he would bend the knee so quickly, they probably would never have crowned him.

But, most of them still fought with Jon at WF and then went to KL.   

[Drogo]

2 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Part of e ope that happens, she appeals to the South for help, and they say "Nope! You wanted to be independent! We're not interfering in your internal affairs"

[Absurda]

I suspect that after all they've been through in the last 2 generations, the people of Westeros would be thrilled to have a boring old king who doesn't do much but provide stability and zero drama.  Of course, they don't get to choose and most of them don't care who's on the throne anyway.

[CarobCake]

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

On rewatch now - part of Dany's Hitler speech speaks of liberating people all over the world. "From Winterefell to Dorne, from Lannisport to Qarth, from the Summer Isles to the Jade Sea"

 Ummmm...liberating people in Winterfell from what? They don't have slavery there. Nor in Lannisport. Slavery is outlawed in the Seven Kingdoms. I can picture Sansa giving Jon a snarky "I told you so" side eye if she'd been there to hear it.

For a moment I thought this might be commentary on modern imperialism and all the pointless wars where people are "liberated" by bombs. Then I remembered that I was giving the writers way too much credit. 

[Constantinople]

King Bran's already putting on airs

Can't just have some random nobody roll His Grace around, but has to have a knight

[Absurda]

Quote

King Bran's already putting on airs

Can't just have some random nobody roll His Grace around, but has to have a knight 

Based on his armor, it looked like Pod was a member of the king's guard.  It would make sense for a bodyguard to be in charge of rolling him around. 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

King Bran's already putting on airs

Can't just have some random nobody roll His Grace around, but has to have a knight

And Pod will probably have to carry him around a lot, too.  I can't imagine the Red Keep is all that wheelchair accessible.    

[proserpina65]

3 minutes ago, luvenan said:

For a moment I thought this might be commentary on modern imperialism and all the pointless wars where people are "liberated" by bombs. Then I remembered that I was giving the writers way too much credit. 

Not my quote, but I'll comment anyway.  I think the writers probably had some of that in mind, and I don't think that's giving them too much credit.

[Beachdreamer]

25 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Everyone understands that Tyrion is the de facto king.  But Bran is the king, and people won't be inspired by an emotionless  search engine.  They want someone they can cheer.  FFS, they were even willing to cheer Joffrey when he and Margeary waved to the crowd.

Not that it matters what the people want since they have as much input into running the country as before

But the people are all dead, so what difference does any of it make?  At least the people of Kings Landing, where they apparently plan to stay.  The other people from the other 6 or 7 lands all live far enough away that they'd be unlikely to ever see the king anyway.

[Drogo]

Just now, Absurda said:

Based on his armor, it looked like Pod was a member of the king's guard.  It would make sense for a bodyguard to be in charge of rolling him around. 

Pod is to Bran what Hound was to Joffrey, except Joffrey could walk. 

[Bryce Lynch]

3 minutes ago, Absurda said:

Based on his armor, it looked like Pod was a member of the king's guard.  It would make sense for a bodyguard to be in charge of rolling him around. 

Does this mean Pod is supposed to be celibate?

[Drogo]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

And Pod will probably have to carry him around a lot, too.  I can't imagine the Red Keep is all that wheelchair accessible.    

Makes sense:  Bran has 0 working legs, Pod has 3. 

Source: Word on the street.

[Constantinople]

4 minutes ago, Absurda said:

Based on his armor, it looked like Pod was a member of the king's guard.  It would make sense for a bodyguard to be in charge of rolling him around. 

No way Pod the Sex God is joining the King's Guard

The whores will go crying from Dorne to Casterly Rock

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

And Pod will probably have to carry him around a lot, too.  I can't imagine the Red Keep is all that wheelchair accessible.    

Sounds like a Disability Act violation!

[Popples]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

And Pod will probably have to carry him around a lot, too.  I can't imagine the Red Keep is all that wheelchair accessible.    

A lot of it was damaged by Drogon so it might be now.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Drogo said:

Pod is to Bran what Hound was to Joffrey, except Joffrey could walk. 

Did they hold the final small council meeting in the small council chamber or in the Hand's tower, where Twyin had moved it?  If it was the latter, Pod probably had to carry Bran up a lot of steps, as Joffrey complained that he would have to climb all the stairs if he wanted to attend.  

[Drogo]

Just now, Bryce Lynch said:

Did they hold the final small council meeting in the small council chamber or in the Hand's tower, where Twyin had moved it?  If it was the latter, Pod probably had to carry Bran up a lot of steps, as Joffrey complained that he would have to climb all the stairs if he wanted to attend.  

"We could arrange for someone to.. carry you."

• Joffrey: "OMG how offensive; I am the King!!"
• Bran:  "That sounds amazing, what time should I be ready?"

[chrisvee]

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

The Seinfeld finale was Godfather II compared to this black hole.

I’m laughing so hard I’m gasping for air.

[MrsR]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Did they hold the final small council meeting in the small council chamber or in the Hand's tower

The Hand's Tower was collapsed.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Drogo said:

"We could arrange for someone to.. carry you."

• Joffrey: "OMG how offensive; I am the King!!"
• Bran:  "That sounds amazing, what time should I be ready?"

Joffrey > Bran the Boring  

[chrisvee]

3 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

For me, Brienne completing Jaime's page in the Book of Brothers was her getting closure on their relationship. Once she closed it she's ready to move on.

duty is the death of love 

[DarkRaichu]

2 minutes ago, Drogo said:

"We could arrange for someone to.. carry you."

• Joffrey: "OMG how offensive; I am the King!!"
• Bran:  "That sounds amazing, what time should I be ready?"

Pod: I know the king will never say this, but Ser Brienne, could you hold the door? 

[byrd]

18 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I don’t care how lonely my island gets. I loved this and will miss this show. 

I am also seated at my table for one.. I loved it also, especially when the Dragon scorched the Iron Throne and flew away with Dani's dead body.  It was a mysteriously beautiful and incredible scene. However I still wanted to drag Cersei from the ruble and cut her head off .

[Quark]

I just find it utterly hilarious that Tyrion went from being in shackles for an execution, to being in shackles and deciding who was King of Westeros.

I suppose that's magic for you.

[byrd]

5 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

duty is the death of love 

I actually wanted to see more of that develop. 

[CarobCake]

15 hours ago, lmsweb said:

On rewatch now - part of Dany's Hitler speech speaks of liberating people all over the world. "From Winterefell to Dorne, from Lannisport to Qarth, from the Summer Isles to the Jade Sea"

Ummmm...liberating people in Winterfell from what? They don't have slavery there. Nor in Lannisport. Slavery is outlawed in the Seven Kingdoms. I can picture Sansa giving Jon a snarky "I told you so" side eye if she'd been there to hear it.

Edit to add: Is that Howland Reed sitting between Bran and Edmure at the little post BBQ sit down?

15 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Not my quote, but I'll comment anyway.  I think the writers probably had some of that in mind, and I don't think that's giving them too much credit.

Sorry, still figuring out how to quote people properly in the forums. As above, with the original credit. 

It's like everything else in the season, there are hints of good things but they are thoroughly thought out enough to give it proper weight. If it was commentary on imperialism, then the Hitler imagery should've been tuned way down, as it brings to mind a different story of tyranny and war.

On a side note, I wonder if the water bottles coffee cups were a sort of strike/rebellion from the props/editing department to how the season was being handled. The interviews of the cast that have suddenly start to make more sense imply to me a very unhealthy work environment there towards the end. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by luvenan
Because words have meaning.

[byrd]

17 minutes ago, Beachdreamer said:

But the people are all dead, so what difference does any of it make?  At least the people of Kings Landing, where they apparently plan to stay.  The other people from the other 6 or 7 lands all live far enough away that they'd be unlikely to ever see the king anyway.

Maybe there were a few left . 

[Jack Shaftoe]

Considering the ignominious end of the previous two monarchs whose Hand was Tyrion, I think Bran would be wise to write his will as soon as possible.

[byrd]

39 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Since the North is such a fickle bunch, I really wonder how long Sansa's rule will be. The minute they don't like a decision she makes someone else will want to rule the North. 

Sansa is truly her mother's daughter in every way .  

[Constantinople]

15 hours ago, lmsweb said:

On rewatch now - part of Dany's Hitler speech speaks of liberating people all over the world. "From Winterefell to Dorne, from Lannisport to Qarth, from the Summer Isles to the Jade Sea"

Ummmm...liberating people in Winterfell from what? They don't have slavery there. Nor in Lannisport. Slavery is outlawed in the Seven Kingdoms. I can picture Sansa giving Jon a snarky "I told you so" side eye if she'd been there to hear it.

Slavery is illegal in the Seven Kingdoms, but most of the common people have little more control over their lives than slaves.

Quote

Talisa: That boy lost his foot on your orders.

Robb: They killed my father.

Talisa: That boy did?

Robb: The family he fights for.

Talisa: Do you think he's friends with King Joffrey? He's a fisherman's son that grew up near Lannisport. He probably never held a spear before they shoved one in his hands a few months ago.

Dany is trying to liberate people from the sort of lords who compare the common people to dogs and horses while deciding who will be the next king

[Andromeda]

38 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

But the writers seemed so enamored with making Dany look Hitler that even someone like me who is not a fan of her at all was left with the impression that she was character assassinated.

Yeah, it was way too sudden and over the top. Not slamming the acting at all.

I'm tired of seeing people tell me there were all these "signs" Dany was going to go mad. Mostly in the recent seasons I saw people wondering about her parentage, and coin-flipping, but those aren't her actions being judged, it's her DNA. Which is really uncool.

But I could do the same justification with pretty much every character, if the writers had chosen to warp the character at the 11th hour. For instance,

Bran  is now actually evil. That's why he had no emotion in saying goodbye to Meera, or seeing Hodor die. He arranged for the Night King to get killed so he could take his place. He didn't warn anyone about the coming annihilation of KL -- he actually warged into Drogon to make it happen, which is why we don't see Dany after the chaos and destruction start.

OK, I don't believe that, but there's just as much evidence for it as there is for Dany going bonkers.

Or Sansa is a new Cersei, plotting for her own power. Again, plenty of evidence to read it that way if the writers had gone there. Or, how about Tyrion plotted all along to become the king in all but name. He was intentionally giving Dany bad advice.

Or, Jon is a depressive, and commits suicide in a shocking finale. There's plenty of evidence to support that's where his head is at.

My point being there wasn't any more evidence of Dany ending up where she did than of any other character getting character assassinated at the last minute.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

Slavery is illegal in the Seven Kingdoms, but most of the common people have little more control over their lives than slaves.

Dany is trying to liberate people from the sort of lords who compare the common people to dogs and horses while deciding who will be the next king

Was she?  I was a huge Dany fan, but was she really going to give power to all the people, including the common people?  Maybe, but I saw her more as a benevolent monarch, before her heel turn.  She passionately opposed slavery.  Her views on feudalism were less clear.  

[MadameKillerB]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

If there's no Night's Watch who were all the black-clad men at Castle Black? And I don't see any part of the wheel actually broken just because the great houses elected a monarch. Things like the maesters and the Iron Islands/Dorne could easily have been better explained in an ep that was already 60+ minutes. And I'm honestly annoyed I have to mentally fill in the blanks on how the floppy fish lord returned to power just because Edmure was only allowed to speak to be interrupted as comic relief.

Ah, I totally misunderstood. I wonder where the black IKEA-rug guys came from? (Edd last of the Watch died, right?) I'm a bit lost. But, eh. I felt like it was to fool Grey Worm? That Jon was going to go Beyond the Wall with the wildlings when Tormund decided it was OK for them to go back there. I completely misinterpreted that!

And I agree. Not much is "broken" of the wheel that runs Westeros. Just that how they choose the king/queen is different. Shrug.

[DarkRaichu]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Was she?  I was a huge Dany fan, but was she really going to give power to all the people, including the common people?  Maybe, but I saw her more as a benevolent monarch, before her heel turn.  She passionately opposed slavery.  Her views on feudalism were less clear.  

Yeah.  She was the kind of leader who freed you from slavery but in turn she expected your blind loyalty forever (or else dragon fire!!!)

[chrisvee]

1 hour ago, Lady S. said:

Does Sansa really not realize that she and her future kids would already be in line or was she just focused on guaranteeing a crown for herself?

Aren’t they either electing the next king like the Holy Roman Emperor or potentially introducing some type of broader elective republic? 

[Jack Shaftoe]

10 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Dany is trying to liberate people from the sort of lords who compare the common people to dogs and horses while deciding who will be the next king

To be honest, If I were living in Westeros I would actually prefer that kind of scum to rule over me rather than someone who "liberates" people by burning them alive.

[Wulfsige]

5 minutes ago, byrd said:

I am also seated at my table for one.. I loved it also, especially when the Dragon scorched the Iron Throne and flew away with Dani's dead body.  It was a mysteriously beautiful and incredible scene. However I still wanted to drag Cersei from the ruble and cut her head off .

I'm over here, all alone, too. I enjoyed it, mostly. That's not to say I thought it  was well executed or well told, but I was entertained. I agree with the Drogon scene being mysteriously beautiful. Aren't dragons supposed to represent ancient wisdom, beyond all concepts of good and evil, but not necessarily sadness?  (Yes, I realize the mythos around dragons is vast and varied.) Anyway, I wonder if Drogon, somewhere in his calcified ancient reptile  brain, was less than pleased at being reduced to a weapon of mass destruction to kill innocents? Perhaps he understood why Jon did what he did, and so he did what he could, which was to destroy the object that caused so much pain in the world. 

[Lady S.]

Just now, chrisvee said:

Aren’t they either electing the next king like the Holy Roman Emperor or potentially introducing some type of broader elective republic? 

Sansa pointed out Bran's inability to father children before Tyrion delivered his next blindly accepted edict. There's no hint that primogeniture will be dropped for any of the lords and ladies, so, yeah, closer to the Holy Roman Empire or any other elective monarchy.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, DarkRaichu said:

Yeah.  She was the kind of leader who freed you from slavery but in turn she expected your blind loyalty forever (or else dragon fire!!!)

I'm not sure about that.  After she acquired the Unsullied she freed them and they were free to go.  In Meereen, she was popular at fist.  Then the former Masters engaged in a insurrection through the Sons of the Harpy.  While putting down that, she executed Mossador for killing one of the accused SOH without a trial, and the people turned against her.  I don't recall her putting them all to death.  Later they seemed to support her again.

I believe the slaves in Astopor and Yunkaii were allowed to set up their own governments and she didn't interfere in those cities.  

Once she killed the Khals who planned gang rape and kill her, the Dothraki willingly followed her because they follow strength.  We never really saw any reason for the Unsullied or Dotraki to be disloyal to her and they were loyal to the end.   

[DarkRaichu]

4 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

Ah, I totally misunderstood. I wonder where the black IKEA-rug guys came from? (Edd last of the Watch died, right?) I'm a bit lost. But, eh. I felt like it was to fool Grey Worm? That Jon was going to go Beyond the Wall with the wildlings when Tormund decided it was OK for them to go back there. I completely misinterpreted that!

They were there to close the tunnel door as Jon left the Wall ???

Was Jon supposed to create a New Watch or was Bran/Sansa's actual plan to release Jon to the North of the Wall ?  

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

To be honest, If I were living in Westeros I would actually prefer that kind of scum to rule over me rather than someone who "liberates" people by burning them alive.

Well, she only starting "liberating" by burning alive in the next to last episode.  Prior to that, she just liberated people by liberating them.