S08.E05: The Bells

[MrsR]

17 minutes ago, GiuliettaMasina said:

"Dovaogēdys! Āeksia ossēnātās, menti ossēnātās, qilōni pilos lue vale tolvie ossēnātās, yn riñe dōre ōdrikātās. Urnet luo buzdaro tolvio belma pryjātās!

(Unsullied! Slay the masters, slay the soldiers, slay every man who holds a whip, but harm no child. Strike the chains off of every slave you see!)"

―Daenerys Targaryen orders the Unsullied to purge Astapor of slavers.

Lovely. Now let's extrapolate that. Outside the city, Dany issues her order. Drogon fires on the wall burning the Masters. However 3 blocks away a serving girl who has no idea what's being said outside the wall sees a fire breathing mythical creature barbequing some men. She probably runs screaming. 
A half an hour later 25 blocks away a family is sitting down to dinner when a soldier bursts in and kills the parents in front of the children. No one bothers to explain to the children that it's the "righteous" thing to do, the soldier moves on to rinse and repeat.

She sacked a city. And then screwed off with her army which is what she came for in the first place. Now it's all very cool and satisfying in a contrapasso kinda way but it stills signifies to anyone (free) willing to do so as, "This bitch is dangerous."

[GraceK]

1 hour ago, MJ Frog said:

As to your other point, I am hoping she doesn't care about the throne anymore. While watching her burn everything and everyone, I was thinking maybe this is her way of breaking the wheel: tearing the whole rotten thing down and saying,"There, motherfuckers. Have you had enough of this crap? Because I sure as hell have."

And then she flies away to become the crazy lady in the mountains whom you don't fuck with because she has a dragon.

I would honestly  love that ending better than the one we are probably getting . 

[Francie]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I guess she should have cried and squealed like a weak. little woman, over the brother who just threatened to kill her and her baby.

Her reaction was the reaction of a Khaleesi.   

Her reaction was one of superiority ("He is not a dragon" and implying that she is) and a high level of tolerance for extreme violence and the pain and suffering of another. That's what carried over to Season 8, Episode 5.  

Look, I think Dany becoming "mad" was a heel turn.  But Dany capable of massive violence has been shown to be there, all along.  Before King's Landing, though, she either got her way before that point came, someone talked her out of what her instincts were, or the person to whom she did "deserved it" in some viewers' eyes.  

[DarkRaichu]

3 minutes ago, Fiver said:

I love reading your posts, Sistermagpie.  They are so thoughtful and intriguing.  I feel like I am getting more out of your analysis of season 8 than what D&D are giving me, lol.

Analysis that @sistermagpie and @Drogo gave regarding Dany's motivation are great but they are wasted on showrunners whose basic reasoning was Dany wanted blood

[Bryce Lynch]

2 hours ago, RealReality said:

I know I didn't say that because I didn't at all think that.

Any human being, man or woman should have some visceral reaction to someone dying a gruesome death whether they liked them or not.

I never said it had to be a breakdown, crying or hair pulling.  But it should be something.  I think that's just a human response.  And khaleesi or not, I'd like my leaders to have a little humanity.

She saw an abusive POS get the death he richly deserved.  What is the reaction supposed to be, bearing in mind that she had become largely assimilated into Dothraki culture?  

She showed humanity when she was heartbroken over the little girl accidentally killed by one of her dragons.   

Funny, people freaked out over Brienne weeping over Jaime going back to Cersei, saying it made that strong female character look weak.  But, when Dany is stoic, something is wrong with her.

Sansa had almost the same look on her face when she saw Ramsay torn apart by the hounds, which was even a more brutal death than Viserys suffered.  But, nobody holds that against Sansa (nor should they).

In episode 1, Jon told Bran not to look away, when Ned beheaded the deserter, because a leader is not supposed to turn away from such unpleasant things.

Robb showed little emotion when he executed Lord Karstark.   

Jorah told Dany to look away, but she bravely watched (just like Bran) because that is what a Khaleesi and a strong leader is supposed to do.   

[Francie]

2 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

Well if Dany stays on the throne.. They may just have to eat the loss.. I imagine a negotiation will involve a Drogon appearance 

The Iron Bank has the faceless men.  I'd bet on them any day of the week. Even over a dragon. 

[TigerLynx]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

Logic says Jon is the only one who can get close enough to Dany when Drogon is around.

Knowing the showrunners though, Bronn is going to shoot Dany with that fancy crossbow (at Tyrion's request) while Jon is busy getting chased by the dragon

If Bronn kills Dany, and Jon gets eaten by a dragon, I'm going to laugh.

[DarkRaichu]

1 minute ago, Francie said:

The Iron Bank has the faceless men.  I'd bet on them any day of the week. Even over a dragon. 

Do the Bank has the faceless men's backing though ?  I thought they just happen to have headquarters in the same city?

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Francie said:

The Iron Bank has the faceless men.  I'd bet on them any day of the week. Even over a dragon. 

I'm not sure if the Iron Bank considers the debtor to be the Realm or Cersei and House Lannister.   I know there were discussions in the past about them always trying to back the winning side.  If they could collect from the winners when their side loses, why would they care if they backed the winner or the loser?

[RealReality]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She saw an abusive POS get the death he richly deserved.  What is the reaction supposed to be, bearing in mind that she had become largely assimilated into Dothraki culture?  

She showed humanity when she was heartbroken over the little girl accidentally killed by one of her dragons.   

Funny, people freaked out over Brienne weeping over Jaime going back to Cersei, saying it made that strong female character look weak.  But, when Dany is stoic, something is wrong with her.

Sansa had almost the same look on her face when she saw Ramsay torn apart by the hounds, which was even a more brutal death than Viserys suffered.  But, nobody holds that against Sansa (nor should they).

In episode 1, Jon told Bran not to look away, when Ned beheaded the deserter, because a leader is not supposed to turn away from such unpleasant things.

Robb showed little emotion when he executed Lord Karstark.   

Jorah told Dany to look away, but she bravely watched (just like Bran) because that is what a Khaleesi and a strong leader is supposed to do.   

Humans should always exhibit humanity.  It's part of being human.

Shock and surprise are two human reactions I can think of having when you see someone, anyone die a gruesome death whether you like them or not.

If the argument is that she did not have these reactions because she had been assimilated into dothraki culture, it sounds more like you are saying that this assimilation to a violent culture stripped away parts of her humanity...which would be different IMI then saying that having no reaction to someone dying a horrible death is humane.

And it's not a bad point to say that in order to survive Dany had to let parts of her humanity be stripped away. 

I also think that comparing brienne crying over Jamie leaving to Dany showing no emotion at the vicious death her brother endured is apples and oranges.

Edited May 17, 2019 by RealReality

[TigerLynx]

If Jon, Tyrion, or any of these people had actually learned anything, they would realize that someone being put in power simply because of blood, birthright, etc., was a bad idea.  If Dany's mad Targ genes were really the problem, then any of the ruling families being in power would be a problem.

[RealReality]

19 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She saw an abusive POS get the death he richly deserved.  What is the reaction supposed to be, bearing in mind that she had become largely assimilated into Dothraki culture?  

She showed humanity when she was heartbroken over the little girl accidentally killed by one of her dragons.   

Funny, people freaked out over Brienne weeping over Jaime going back to Cersei, saying it made that strong female character look weak.  But, when Dany is stoic, something is wrong with her.

Sansa had almost the same look on her face when she saw Ramsay torn apart by the hounds, which was even a more brutal death than Viserys suffered.  But, nobody holds that against Sansa (nor should they).

In episode 1, Jon told Bran not to look away, when Ned beheaded the deserter, because a leader is not supposed to turn away from such unpleasant things.

Robb showed little emotion when he executed Lord Karstark.   

Jorah told Dany to look away, but she bravely watched (just like Bran) because that is what a Khaleesi and a strong leader is supposed to do.   

As for Sansa,I would absolutely say that part of her humanity was stripped away from her time with the Bolton's.  Even Sansa acknowledged how much her experiences shaped her.

I also don't think a beheading is nearly as gruesome as a "crowning.". Neither is an ideal way to go, but if I was forced to choose, I'd pick the sword.

Edited May 17, 2019 by RealReality

[RealReality]

7 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

If Jon, Tyrion, or any of these people had actually learned anything, they would realize that someone being put in power simply because of blood, birthright, etc., was a bad idea.  If Dany's mad Targ genes were really the problem, then any of the ruling families being in power would be a problem.

The interesting thing is that while Dany and maybe Jon (?) have a birthright to the throne, both of them were chosen to rule by merit by different groups of people.

Edited May 17, 2019 by RealReality

[DarkRaichu]

Just now, TigerLynx said:

If Jon, Tyrion, or any of these people had actually learned anything, they would realize that someone being put in power simply because of blood, birthright, etc., was a bad idea.  If Dany's mad Targ genes were really the problem, then any of the ruling families being in power would be a problem.

This is why they should crown someone chosen by Lord of Light himself 😄

[ShellsandCheese]

2 minutes ago, TigerLynx said:

If Jon, Tyrion, or any of these people had actually learned anything, they would realize that someone being put in power simply because of blood, birthright, etc., was a bad idea.  If Dany's mad Targ genes were really the problem, then any of the ruling families being in power would be a problem.

Shhh. Quit talking sense. Above all else, the ruling class wants to remain the ruling class. That's why I scoff at all of Tyrion's defenders claiming he was all about the people, ditto for Varys. They were for certain people, preferably people in power that could be molded, shaped, and manipulated - and that could help them in the long run. That's why I have a hard time believing that people still root for certain people to get the The Throne. The whole premise of the show is that The Throne is the problem. As a result, there are only two realistic endings: 

1. The Throne is destroyed and the realm goes back to how it was pre-Targaryen conquest

2. A total tyrant sits on the throne to keep everybody in check but the intrigue behind the scenes results in a never-ending cycle of violence and destruction

[MrsR]

5 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

The whole premise of the show is that The Throne is the problem. As a result, there are only two realistic endings: 

1. The Throne is destroyed and the realm goes back to how it was pre-Targaryen conquest

2. A total tyrant sits on the throne to keep everybody in check but the intrigue behind the scenes results in a never-ending cycle of violence and destruction

Yep, that's it.

It's not a prize, it's a curse. 

"My preciiiiiiiiious"

Edited May 17, 2019 by MrsR

[TigerLynx]

6 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

Shhh. Quit talking sense. Above all else, the ruling class wants to remain the ruling class. That's why I scoff at all of Tyrion's defenders claiming he was all about the people, ditto for Varys. They were for certain people, preferably people in power that could be molded, shaped, and manipulated - and that could help them in the long run. That's why I have a hard time believing that people still root for certain people to get the The Throne. The whole premise of the show is that The Throne is the problem. As a result, there are only two realistic endings: 

1. The Throne is destroyed and the realm goes back to how it was pre-Targaryen conquest

2. A total tyrant sits on the throne to keep everybody in check but the intrigue behind the scenes results in a never-ending cycle of violence and destruction

I agree getting rid of the Iron Throne would be a great step in the right direction, but things weren't all that great for the regular people before the Targs showed up.

The best thing that could happen for the people of Westeros is for them to get rid of the ruling families, and elect their own government, and even then that can backfire.

[Heathrowe]

39 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She saw an abusive POS get the death he richly deserved.  What is the reaction supposed to be, bearing in mind that she had become largely assimilated into Dothraki culture?  

In general, I'd hope for something more like Jon Snow's reaction when he watched Varys get torched. Discomfort. I think the reaction to watching anyone die in front of you is hopefully more like, "Oh, sh*t!" even if the person dying is hateful. But it's interesting that you bring up her assimilation into Dothraki culture. Would we all have been able to root for Khal Drogo if, instead of Dany, he wanted to become king? I think many on these boards would reject him as too barbaric, even though he was hot, hot, hot.

Edited May 17, 2019 by Heathrowe

[screamin]

15 hours ago, GraceK said:

Why is this a bad thing?’it’s called a Game of Thrones. So many critics of Dany seem to see her ambition and pursuit of the Iron Throne as character flaw. Why? Is it because she actually continues to conquer and gain power?

Yes, a little? The first book was called a Game of Thrones. And I think the series was meant to show that the game is a cruel game played by aristocrats with little care for those who suffer far more than they do as they struggle for the power that they think their pedigrees entitle them to, while they ignore greater dangers that threaten them all.

The showrunners switched it around, IMO; they chose to name the whole series 'Game of Thrones' and to make the game central by making getting the Iron Throne from Cersei the climax, with the threat of the Others and winter everlasting a temporary detour. But the fact remains that anyone who decides to play the cruel game, decides that the people who suffer for them to gain power are just the necessary means to their end, have a streak of cruelty about them. Dany was an innocent young girl at the start, but there was no way she couldn't know, when Drogo agreed to her plan to invade Westeros and began invading the peaceable Lamb Men's territory to get funds for the invasion, that people innocent of doing any harm to her were going to die for her sake. Everything she did for the conquered after that was a halfway measure to salve her conscience for the harm done.

 She's certainly one of the best people who chose to play the game. She still chose it, though.

Edited May 17, 2019 by screamin
Because less ain't more.

[RealReality]

I think that varys and Tyrion only understood the world through monarchs.  So, I think they both could want what's best for the people, but mostly understand that to mean a king or queen who is fair, just, kind, empathetic and wise.  They don't know another way.

And word up to the poster who said democratically electing leaders can go sideways too.  No system is perfect.  But, even though democracy can be messy, I prefer it.

Edited May 17, 2019 by RealReality

[Constantinople]

I found Cersei's death unsatisfying for two reasons

1. The specific manner of death was dull. I'd rather Cersei take more active steps in her death, or show some kind of defiance. After all, she was willing to kill herself at the end of the Battle of Blackwater Bay. But even if she still went the I'm afraid to die route, I'd rather she die some other way. Death by masonry was a bit anticlimatic.

2. Her death is pointless after what Daenerys did to the city. After what Daenerys did, I'd rather have Cersei escape to Pentos, Jaime succumb to his injuries and Tyrion be executed for his part in Cersei's escape (but only after Tyrion found out Jaime died and Cersei had a miscarriage, so that Tyrion knew he did it all for nothing).

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Fiver said:

I love reading your posts, Sistermagpie.  They are so thoughtful and intriguing.  I feel like I am getting more out of your analysis of season 8 than what D&D are giving me, lol.

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

Analysis that @sistermagpie and @Drogo gave regarding Dany's motivation are great but they are wasted on showrunners whose basic reasoning was Dany wanted blood

Aww, thanks! But yeah, they really don't seem to do themselves any favor when they speak for it, do they?

1 hour ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She saw an abusive POS get the death he richly deserved.  What is the reaction supposed to be, bearing in mind that she had become largely assimilated into Dothraki culture?  

She showed humanity when she was heartbroken over the little girl accidentally killed by one of her dragons.   

Funny, people freaked out over Brienne weeping over Jaime going back to Cersei, saying it made that strong female character look weak.  But, when Dany is stoic, something is wrong with her.

Sansa had almost the same look on her face when she saw Ramsay torn apart by the hounds, which was even a more brutal death than Viserys suffered.  But, nobody holds that against Sansa (nor should they).

In episode 1, Jon told Bran not to look away, when Ned beheaded the deserter, because a leader is not supposed to turn away from such unpleasant things.

Robb showed little emotion when he executed Lord Karstark.   

Jorah told Dany to look away, but she bravely watched (just like Bran) because that is what a Khaleesi and a strong leader is supposed to do.   

Iirc, part of what I read into Dany's reaction to the crowning was a feeling that she'd seen this guy, her brother, as so powerful her whole life but he lied--he wasn't a dragon, he was just a man. And a weak man at that. That was part of what she was learning with the Dothraki, that by their standards (and frankly by most peoples' standards I would think) he was weak. And she was certainly stronger.

It is a cold reaction, but I definitely think of it as being a lot like Sansa's reaction to Ramsey--there she herself even chose the punishment. Dany wasn't sadistically reveling in her revenge, but it probably did mark a step forward in her relationship to power. And it made sense that that came toward the beginning of her story where with Sansa it's more of an endpoint.

Dany seems to see this sort of thing more on a personal level--there are strong people and there are weak people. That's very Dothraki. Probably very Targ also. Sansa's experiences more show power coming in very different forms and sometimes anyone might need to use any of them. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, RealReality said:

Humans should always exhibit humanity.  It's part of being human.

Shock and surprise are two human reactions I can think of having when you see someone, anyone die a gruesome death whether you like them or not.

If the argument is that she did not have these reactions because she had been assimilated into dothraki culture, it sounds more like you are saying that this assimilation to a violent culture stripped away parts of her humanity...which would be different IMI then saying that having no reaction to someone dying a horrible death is humane.

And it's not a bad point to say that in order to survive Dany had to let parts of her humanity be stripped away. 

I also think that comparing brienne crying over Jamie leaving to Dany showing no emotion at the vicious death her brother endured is apples and oranges.

Many of the most beloved characters on the show have shown no regret when enemies, including brothers, husbands or friends were executed.

Jon didn't weep when he executed Olly.

Robb Stark showed only anger not sadness or compassion when he executed his kin, Lord Karstark.

Sansa looked on with no emotion as Ramsay was torn to pieces and then gave a slight smile, not unlike the look on Dany's face as she walked away.

Brienne showed no emotion, except maybe anger as she killed the 3 Stark men, and made the last one suffer ("Two quick deaths...") who had killed the 3 women.

Arya - don't me started on her (my favorite character BTW).  

Ned, Jon, Robb and Bran showed no emotion when Ned beheaded the NW deserter. 

Sansa showed no emotion, except perhaps satisfaction, as she watched as Littlefinger gasped for breath and bled out after she ordered Arya to slit his throat.  

This is not a show where characters tend to weep or display shock at just executions.  I'm not sure why Dany should be singled out as "inhumane" for being like the rest.   

Edited May 17, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[Bryce Lynch]

11 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I found Cersei's death unsatisfying for two reasons

1. The specific manner of death was dull. I'd rather Cersei take more active steps in her death, or show some kind of defiance. After all, she was willing to kill herself at the end of the Battle of Blackwater Bay. But even if she still went the I'm afraid to die route, I'd rather she die some other way. Death by masonry was a bit anticlimatic.

2. Her death is pointless after what Daenerys did to the city. After what Daenerys did, I'd rather have Cersei escape to Pentos, Jaime succumb to his injuries and Tyrion be executed for his part in Cersei's escape (but only after Tyrion found out Jaime died and Cersei had a miscarriage, so that Tyrion knew he did it all for nothing).

I agree, except, unless she went there to plot her revenge, I would not like to see Cersei flee to Pentos.  As evil as she was, she was not a coward, she was a fighter.   She should have died defiantly.   But, "subverting expectations" and all that. 

[Uncle JUICE]

12 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Aww, thanks! But yeah, they really don't seem to do themselves any favor when they speak for it, do they?

Iirc, part of what I read into Dany's reaction to the crowning was a feeling that she'd seen this guy, her brother, as so powerful her whole life but he lied--he wasn't a dragon, he was just a man. And a weak man at that. That was part of what she was learning with the Dothraki, that by their standards (and frankly by most peoples' standards I would think) he was weak. And she was certainly stronger.

I can cut Danerys a little slack for not reacting as one might expect when we consider he abused her (the extent of which is only hinted at) and sold her into sex slavery, when the show's depiction of Targaryen lineage expressly talks about Aegon and his sister wives, how Targaryens had wed brother and sister, etc. etc...she went from thinking she'd be the sister queen of Viserys's Westeros to getting sold into sex slavery to what looked to her like a tribe of nomad barbarians. While she fell in love with Drogo, she certainly wouldn't forgive that.

[Uncle JUICE]

16 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I found Cersei's death unsatisfying for two reasons

1. The specific manner of death was dull. I'd rather Cersei take more active steps in her death, or show some kind of defiance. After all, she was willing to kill herself at the end of the Battle of Blackwater Bay. But even if she still went the I'm afraid to die route, I'd rather she die some other way. Death by masonry was a bit anticlimatic.

2. Her death is pointless after what Daenerys did to the city. After what Daenerys did, I'd rather have Cersei escape to Pentos, Jaime succumb to his injuries and Tyrion be executed for his part in Cersei's escape (but only after Tyrion found out Jaime died and Cersei had a miscarriage, so that Tyrion knew he did it all for nothing).

A pretty THronesian ending. I hope someday you'll stop by the Fixed It thread I will make for this show with further ideas like this one :). The point about her death being meaningless at the end is spot on. If you can do the fan service of CLegane Bowl, or even more egregious, the Brienne and Jaime coupling up for like twenty minutes (INexcusable!), then you can do the job of having Cersei confronted directly by Dany and co., being defiant and being dracarysed. Or having John lop off her head for what she did to Sansa, Ned, Catelynn, Bran, etc. 

[Drogo]

Just now, sistermagpie said:

Dany seems to see this sort of thing more on a personal level--there are strong people and there are weak people. That's very Dothraki.

As are her braids, and her hair which has never been cut as she's never been defeated.  Daenerys has never let go of her Dothraki days.

I've long held the theory that Drogon was born of Drogo's life (death pays for life, Mirri was chanting as she was burned and dragons were born and delivered Rhaego covered in scales..)  and that he heard her plea from his catatonic state and simply did what he said he'd done in the House of the Undying:

        

Daenerys:  "That sounds like something you would do."

Drogon only abandoned her once... when she was fixin' to throw her dragons into captivity (how was he supposed to help her locked in a dungeon?!)... but he went to chill in her hometown and came back for her when she was really losing control: after the former slaves' riot against her, and again when the Sons of the Harpy attacked in the fighting pits.

And what'd he do when she could finally get on his back?  Dropped her off a stone's throw from a Dothraki horde so she could be taken to Vaes Dothrak... where he had every confidence she'd win herself an army.  Once she had them, he returned to her again.  In a way, he kept his promise of an army to take the IT. 

Regardless of what happens with Daenerys, Drogon will be with her. 

(I get it, my dude.  When you find a really good one...)

 

**Oh, don't look at me like that.  If we can believe in dragons, we can believe in Twu Wuv.**

[Heathrowe]

42 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Many of the most beloved characters on the show have shown no regret when enemies, including brothers, husbands or friends were executed.

JThis is not a show where characters tend to weep or display shock at just executions.  I'm not sure why Dany should be singled out as "inhumane" for being like the rest.   

Pretty much everyone on the show has done horrible things, yes. So using the same logic, if Sansa or Tyrion or Jon had suddenly turned murderous we could say it was there in the writing all along. That's part of my problem with the increasingly wishy-washy viewpointless writing on the show. So, I understand what you are saying but at the same time-I think Dany is getting "singled out" because her horrible act is the most recent and worth discussing. And unfortunately, with only one episode left to go, her horrible act will be decisive and important to the end of the story, and there's not a lot of time for them to build a redemption arc. I get that it's a raw deal for the character. 

[GraceK]

22 minutes ago, Drogo said:

As are her braids, and her hair which has never been cut as she's never been defeated.  Daenerys has never let go of her Dothraki days.

I've long held the theory that Drogon was born of Drogo's life (death pays for life, Mirri was chanting as she was burned and dragons were born and delivered Rhaego covered in scales..)  and that he heard her plea from his catatonic state and simply did what he said he'd done in the House of the Undying:

        

Daenerys:  "That sounds like something you would do."

Drogon only abandoned her once... when she was fixin' to throw her dragons into captivity (how was he supposed to help her locked in a dungeon?!)... but he went to chill in her hometown and came back for her when she was really losing control: after the former slaves' riot against her, and again when the Sons of the Harpy attacked in the fighting pits.

And what'd he do when she could finally get on his back?  Dropped her off a stone's throw from a Dothraki horde so she could be taken to Vaes Dothrak... where he had every confidence she'd win herself an army.  Once she had them, he returned to her again.  In a way, he kept his promise of an army to take the IT. 

Regardless of what happens with Daenerys, Drogon will be with her. 

(I get it, my dude.  When you find a really good one...)

 

**Oh, don't look at me like that.  If we can believe in dragons, we can believe in Twu Wuv.**

It’s funny you say this because I think it’s Paula fairchild ( correct me if I’m wrong) who does the sounds and cgi for the Dragons, and she said in numerous interviews that she considers Drogon Khal Drogo reincarnated, and that’s how she makes him sound and animated him and plays his bond with Daenerys.

[Drogo]

8 minutes ago, GraceK said:

It’s funny you say this because I think it’s Paula fairchild ( correct me if I’m wrong) who does the sounds and cgi for the Dragons, and she said in numerous interviews that she considers Drogon Khal Drogo reincarnated, and that’s how she makes him sound and animated him and plays his bond with Daenerys.

I love that. 

[proserpina65]

8 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

I didn’t miss anything. I know how to read a mise en scene. This is Ret conning. Also as has been said many times: foreshadowing is not character development. If the moments were very samall andnoverhwrlmed bybheroic music and he way it was cut shot and acted its fair to say the moments were not the point.

people who now say “it was there all the time” are falling for spin.

It WAS there all the time, ripe for interpretation, and no, I'm not falling for spin.  I haven't read or seen anything from the producers.  My opinion is based solely on what has been presented on the screen for 8 seasons.  And the moments were not all very small.  The scene when Dany returned to Meereen makes it pretty damned obvious that she was willing to kill innocent men, women and children just because the rulers of Astapor and Yunkaii opposed her.

[sadie]

On 5/16/2019 at 3:50 PM, SNeaker said:

What she said was:

"Now she knows what happens when people hear the truth about you.”

What I got from that was that Sansa now knows that when people hear the truth about Jon, they abandon Dany to support him, whether he wants the throne or not. Just like she told him they would.

 

Ahhhhh, that’s even better. 

[Bryce Lynch]

19 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

It WAS there all the time, ripe for interpretation, and no, I'm not falling for spin.  I haven't read or seen anything from the producers.  My opinion is based solely on what has been presented on the screen for 8 seasons.  And the moments were not all very small.  The scene when Dany returned to Meereen makes it pretty damned obvious that she was willing to kill innocent men, women and children just because the rulers of Astapor and Yunkaii opposed her.

She said she would crucify all the masters and kill all there soldiers.  She did not mention slaughtering innocent civilians.   

Also, it wasn't that the rulers of Astaopor and Yunkaii "opposed her", they were attacking and burning her city.  They attacked her city and she was going to fight back, hard.   

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Heathrowe said:

Pretty much everyone on the show has done horrible things, yes. So using the same logic, if Sansa or Tyrion or Jon had suddenly turned murderous we could say it was there in the writing all along. That's part of my problem with the increasingly wishy-washy viewpointless writing on the show. So, I understand what you are saying but at the same time-I think Dany is getting "singled out" because her horrible act is the most recent and worth discussing. And unfortunately, with only one episode left to go, her horrible act will be decisive and important to the end of the story, and there's not a lot of time for them to build a redemption arc. I get that it's a raw deal for the character. 

Could you really tho?  I mean what exactly has Jon done in the seasons  that matches Dany feeding a maybe guilty mereenese man to her dragons?  Or as dishonest as what she did to kraznys ( yes he was a shitball slaver who probably deserved it on a moral level)  but they were doing a deal and she renegged and murdered the guy... I'm not asking for sympathy for him.. Just the facts of the situation... What has Jon Done?  Kill Olly... When he executed Olly and the rest he was still lord commander of the NW... They were mutineers his last act was to punish them by the laws... 

Sansa has had a few "clever" moments I guess but I guess after the BOTB... You could say she could do something.. I dunno without other examples its harder to say... 

Tyrion he's been about as just as any of these noble people other than the whoring... If I'm missing something or im not getting what ur saying I apologize .. But I'm not really seeing it

[Heathrowe]

6 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Could you really tho?  I mean what exactly has Jon done in the seasons  that matches Dany feeding a maybe guilty mereenese man to her dragons?  Or as dishonest as what she did to kraznys ( yes he was a shitball slaver who probably deserved it on a moral level)  but they were doing a deal and she renegged and murdered the guy... I'm not asking for sympathy for him.. Just the facts of the situation... What has Jon Done?  Kill Olly... When he executed Olly and the rest he was still lord commander of the NW... They were mutineers his last act was to punish them by the laws... 

Sansa has had a few "clever" moments I guess but I guess after the BOTB... You could say she could do something.. I dunno without other examples its harder to say... 

Tyrion he's been about as just as any of these noble people other than the whoring... If I'm missing something or im not getting what ur saying I apologize .. But I'm not really seeing it

Hmm. Good points. I do think they have all done awful things, but not sure if any of those equal razing Kings Landing. Jon's probably behaved the most nobly. He's just criminally stupid, unfortunately.

[lucindabelle]

Sansa smirked when she fed Ramsay to the dogs. Yet I don’t hear anyone saying she was ruthless. Yet somehow it was ruthless of dany to not react because the brother WHO HAD THREATENED HER BABY was killed.

arya fed Waldor Frey his own sons. I don’t hear anyone saying she’s crazy.

its called a double standard.

as for “reneging,” with krazynys, I really find it hard to believe anyone could watch that episode, in which dany, like JUDAH BEN HUR, offered a crucified slave water, and think we’re shpposed to feel she was in any way wrong.

sorry but I people like Krazynys, who was shown to be a disgusting brute, who shipped off a slaves nipple just cause, so NOT deserve to be dealt with honorably.

Not long ago slavery was legal in this country. And I don’t think it was “honorable@ to return a runaway slave.

[JunebugWA]

2 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Sansa smirked when she fed Ramsay to the dogs. Yet I don’t hear anyone saying she was ruthless. Yet somehow it was ruthless of dany to not react because the brother WHO HAD THREATENED HER BABY was killed.

arya fed Waldor Frey his own sons. I don’t hear anyone saying she’s crazy.

its called a double standard.

WORD!! 

D&D were determined to make Dany a villain so they force-fed us that narrative. Heck, by their standards, every single one of the surviving players of this "Game of Thrones" is crazy and ruthless. 

[Bryce Lynch]

8 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

Could you really tho?  I mean what exactly has Jon done in the seasons  that matches Dany feeding a maybe guilty mereenese man to her dragons?  Or as dishonest as what she did to kraznys ( yes he was a shitball slaver who probably deserved it on a moral level)  but they were doing a deal and she renegged and murdered the guy... I'm not asking for sympathy for him.. Just the facts of the situation... What has Jon Done?  Kill Olly... When he executed Olly and the rest he was still lord commander of the NW... They were mutineers his last act was to punish them by the laws... 

Sansa has had a few "clever" moments I guess but I guess after the BOTB... You could say she could do something.. I dunno without other examples its harder to say... 

Tyrion he's been about as just as any of these noble people other than the whoring... If I'm missing something or im not getting what ur saying I apologize .. But I'm not really seeing it

Killing:  Jon killed a boy, younger than Bran.  

Dishonesty: Jon deceived the Wildlings, claiming to have joined them and even killed one of his NW brothers to prove it.  I didn't have a problem with it, but that much more morally questionable that Dany renegging on a deal and killing Kraznys.

Kraznys ordered the murder of 8,000 babies.   No punishment he received could possibly be too severe.

Besides that, she delivered the dragon she promised.  She never promised Drogon would obey him.   

[RealReality]

2 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Many of the most beloved characters on the show have shown no regret when enemies, including brothers, husbands or friends were executed.

Jon didn't weep when he executed Olly.

Robb Stark showed only anger not sadness or compassion when he executed his kin, Lord Karstark.

Sansa looked on with no emotion as Ramsay was torn to pieces and then gave a slight smile, not unlike the look on Dany's face as she walked away.

Brienne showed no emotion, except maybe anger as she killed the 3 Stark men, and made the last one suffer ("Two quick deaths...") who had killed the 3 women.

Arya - don't me started on her (my favorite character BTW).  

Ned, Jon, Robb and Bran showed no emotion when Ned beheaded the NW deserter. 

Sansa showed no emotion, except perhaps satisfaction, as she watched as Littlefinger gasped for breath and bled out after she ordered Arya to slit his throat.  

This is not a show where characters tend to weep or display shock at just executions.  I'm not sure why Dany should be singled out as "inhumane" for being like the rest.   

Because as far as I remember none of those deaths were as gruesome.  Listing all these deaths doesn't really change that for me.

And as I've said, I think sansas humanity has been stripped away as well.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, RealReality said:

Because as far as I remember none of those deaths were as gruesome.  Listing all these deaths doesn't really change that for me.

And as I've said, I think sansas humanity has been stripped away as well.

Many of them were rather gruesome.  Watching LF gasp for air, while blood poured out of his throat was as brutal as Viserys' death, which was pretty much instantaneous.  

Ramsay being torn apart by his own hounds was far more painful and gruesome (and glorious!).  

The hanging of Olly took longer as well, and he was a boy, younger than Bran.  It had to be done, but it was not a pretty sight.  

Brienne made sure to make her last victim suffer longer, to match what was done to the women.   

Honestly, I think Viserys' death was really only more dramatic and poetic than most of those other killings, except for Ramsay's , not more gruesome.    

[RealReality]

10 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Sansa smirked when she fed Ramsay to the dogs. Yet I don’t hear anyone saying she was ruthless. Yet somehow it was ruthless of dany to not react because the brother WHO HAD THREATENED HER BABY was killed.

arya fed Waldor Frey his own sons. I don’t hear anyone saying she’s crazy.

its called a double standard.

as for “reneging,” with krazynys, I really find it hard to believe anyone could watch that episode, in which dany, like JUDAH BEN HUR, offered a crucified slave water, and think we’re shpposed to feel she was in any way wrong.

sorry but I people like Krazynys, who was shown to be a disgusting brute, who shipped off a slaves nipple just cause, so NOT deserve to be dealt with honorably.

Not long ago slavery was legal in this country. And I don’t think it was “honorable@ to return a runaway slave.

I never said that a lack of reaction made Dany ruthless, but I think reacting to the gruesome death of anyone shows humanity and is a human reaction.

Maybe you conflate that with ruthlessness but I don't.  But again, I think every once in a while you may not respond to what people have actually said, but what you may think they have said.

Arya killed the Frey's mostly with poison.  This, to me, is not the same as burning innocent women and children alive.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, RealReality said:

I never said that a lack of reaction made Dany ruthless, but I think reacting to the gruesome death of anyone shows humanity and is a human reaction.

Maybe you conflate that with ruthlessness but I don't.  But again, I think every once in a while you may not respond to what people have actually said, but what you may think they have said.

Arya killed the Frey's mostly with poison.  This, to me, is not the same as burning innocent women and children alive.

For the record, burning all those innocent women and children (and men) alive for no damned reason was, IMO, the worst thing any character on the show has done.

What I am arguing is that it was out of character for Dany and that none of the things people mention as signs that she would do something so horrific were anything close to that, and that most of the other beloved characters have done things as brutal as anything Dany had done prior to 8.5  and many had also shown similar reactions to brutal executions to the one we saw from Dany when Viserys was crowned.  

[RealReality]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Many of them were rather gruesome.  Watching LF gasp for air, while blood poured out of his throat was as brutal as Viserys' death, which was pretty much instantaneous.  

Ramsay being torn apart by his own hounds was far more painful and gruesome (and glorious!).  

The hanging of Olly took longer as well, and he was a boy, younger than Bran.  It had to be done, but it was not a pretty sight.  

Brienne made sure to make her last victim suffer longer, to match what was done to the women.   

Honestly, I think Viserys' death was really only more dramatic and poetic than most of those other killings, except for Ramsay's , not more gruesome.    

Yeah we'll have to agree to disagree because I don't think LFs death was nearly as gruesome as the crowning.  And sansas lack of emotion at LFs death is understandable for the same reasons she was able to feed Ramsay to the dogs.

I also don't think hanging or beheading is as gruesome as a crowning.  A hanging death, if done correctly should be almost immediate as the neck is snapped.  It's not designed to be as gruesome as a crowning.  Burning someone alive may be quicker than a hanging gone wrong, but I still think it's more gruesome.

So yeah, if you think these methods are all the same...it's your opinion, and it's just as valid as mine.  But, I just don't agree and I see a pretty dramatic difference.

[RealReality]

4 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

For the record, burning all those innocent women and children (and men) alive for no damned reason was, IMO, the worst thing any character on the show has done.

What I am arguing is that it was out of character for Dany and that none of the things people mention as signs that she would do something so horrific were anything close to that, and that most of the other beloved characters have done things as brutal as anything Dany had done prior to 8.5  and many had also shown similar reactions to brutal executions to the one we saw from Dany when Viserys was crowned.  

I don't fully disagree with this, my only point was that most people can and should react to something as terrible as a crowning.  

I mean I react when I hear about how people we're impaled, or drawn and quartered back in the day and I don't know those people at all.

And truly, saying that a part of someone's humanity has gone is more an indictment of the terrible circumstances they were in. Like when Sansa said that she would not be who she is without having had her time with ramsay, I think people thought that it was a good thing.  But was it really?  She could literally sit there and watch LF bleed out with an expressionless face.  Yeah, he's an asshole but maybe the effect your awful life has had on you has been to strip away part of your humanity.

Edited May 17, 2019 by RealReality

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, RealReality said:

I don't fully disagree with this, my only point was that most people can and should react to something as terrible as a crowning.  

I mean I react when I hear about how people we're impaled, or drawn and quartered back in the day and I don't know those people at all.

 IMO, the crowning was maybe slightly more gruesome than a clean beheading (not a Theon one) or a hanging, but is in the same ballpark with throat cutting and not nearly as bad as hounds.   

It took Viserys less fewer (RIP Stannis) than 7 seconds to die from the time Drogo began pouring the gold.  

LF suffered for 16 seconds before hit flopped to the floor.  I'm not sure if he was dead at that point or suffered longer.

Olly and his fellow traitors kicked for about 11 or 12 seconds before dying.  

Ramsay is heard screaming for at least 30 seconds.  

[UNOSEZ]

24 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

Sansa smirked when she fed Ramsay to the dogs. Yet I don’t hear anyone saying she was ruthless. Yet somehow it was ruthless of dany to not react because the brother WHO HAD THREATENED HER BABY was killed.

arya fed Waldor Frey his own sons. I don’t hear anyone saying she’s crazy.

its called a double standard.

as for “reneging,” with krazynys, I really find it hard to believe anyone could watch that episode, in which dany, like JUDAH BEN HUR, offered a crucified slave water, and think we’re shpposed to feel she was in any way wrong.

sorry but I people like Krazynys, who was shown to be a disgusting brute, who shipped off a slaves nipple just cause, so NOT deserve to be dealt with honorably.

Not long ago slavery was legal in this country. And I don’t think it was “honorable@ to return a runaway slave.

If I remember correctly the earliest posts about how she reacted to viserys weren't because she didn't cry or smile or anything it was because her affect seemed flat... Ppl were talking..  saying she should show some emotion.. Initially I posted the same tho I read later some posts that said she mightve been in shock.. Or at that moment didn't want to show weakness in front of the dothraki so she just did the stone face... Both of those sound rational to me... When the argument shifted into where it is now I dunno

As for not hearing about Sansa... I suggest reading the threads for all the other episodes Sansa is called everything under the sun.. Even still Ramsay raped and tortured her.. Then killed her brother he specifically had already hurt Sansa and her family.. Same with Arya and the Freys.. They killed Robb and Cat and all those bannermen... They really betrayed house stark... These situations aren't equal.. But yeah the standard may still be diff.. Dany wants to be queen of the world.. Standards probably are diff... 

The Kraznys thing.. Ppl just view it either as he was garbage so it was ok.. Or he was garbage I don't mind it too much.. But she did kinda screw him.. That was littlefinger-esqe what she did.. Dunnon if that's great company... Tho he also pulled himself up and ammassed great power so what do I know

[Law Mom]

3 hours ago, MrsR said:

Yep, that's it.

It's not a prize, it's a curse. 

"My preciiiiiiiiious"

One Throne to rule them all!

[UNOSEZ]

31 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Killing:  Jon killed a boy, younger than Bran.  

Dishonesty: Jon deceived the Wildlings, claiming to have joined them and even killed one of his NW brothers to prove it.  I didn't have a problem with it, but that much more morally questionable that Dany renegging on a deal and killing Kraznys.

Kraznys ordered the murder of 8,000 babies.   No punishment he received could possibly be too severe.

Besides that, she delivered the dragon she promised.  She never promised Drogon would obey him.   

Jon as lord commander executed a man of the night's watch who was a mutineer.. Not to mention Olly murdered him.. 

The wildlings stuff.. Ur right its grey.. He was basically an undercover cop.. So he was doing his duty... But he also fell in love.. Messy

If Dany after hearing what Kraznys said about the  8k babies just looked him in the eye and had Drogon roast him.. Fine.. If she said ur despicable and roasted him fine.. Even what she ended up doing... I don't think a poster is losing sleep over it.. But its still negotiating in bad faith.. Its  clever move.. Its Tywin Lannister or Petyr Baelish.. Its making the best of her situation... Still cold -blooded... Still something that made me go damn.. What else will she do

[TigerLynx]

I saw it more as Dany and Sansa taking their agency back after being in powerless positions.  I was cheering both of them on every step of the way.

[Heckler52317]

4 hours ago, Law Mom said:

One Throne to rule them all!

and in darkness bind them