S14.E20: Moriah

[Jediknight]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't see how that works.  It's only souls from Hell that seem to have come back. OG!Bobby was rescued from Hell and was last seen in Heaven Jail, Rufus, Jo and Ellen are likely somewhere in Heaven.  Unless you're suggesting Heaven's souls are out as well, which isn't what I got from this episode. Well, Bela could come back but I don't it will be Lauren Cohan.  I don't want all these characters recast either. 

Chuck could have lied, and some souls from Heaven got released.  Cohan has said she'd like to return for the final season.  I'd love to see her back.

Just now, mertensia said:

Dance off. 

Ooh-oo child, things are gonna get easier.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Jediknight said:

huck could have lied, and some souls from Heaven got released.  Cohan has said she'd like to return for the final season.  I'd love to see her back. 

She is a lead in a show on ABC now. Not sure how that timing would work.

To your point about Chuck lying. I guess anything that happens on the show now that doesn't fit past Canon or is not textually or subtextually on screen will just be hand waved with "Chuck lies". I find that just .... Blech.

[sarthaz]

9 hours ago, Lastcall said:

My new theory is The Empty gives Jack a power up so he can get ALL of Sam and Deans old kills.

This works. He's family, after all. He's a Winchester. 🤮

[Dobian]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

 Bela could come back but I don't it will be Lauren Cohan.  I don't want all these characters recast either. 

I always wanted Bela to come back and get a better ending than she got.  I liked Bela.  So she was a bad girl, they need some love too you know.

[Bobcatkitten]

18 hours ago, Dobian said:

I'd like to know how the three of them get out of that Walking Dead scenario at the end considering the last shot is of them getting completely swallowed up by that mob.

A world where no one lies would be pretty much what they showed, though maybe not as hilarious to watch.  Sociological research has shown that lying is an essential part of human communication, interaction, and collaboration.

So Chuck is a narcissistic sociopath, that is pretty consistent with what we have known about him.

Alexander Calvert did an excellent job of playing Jack, showing the range of his feelings throughout the season and in the finale.  He brought a lot of depth to the character.  I've always been a fan of Jack, and I'm glad the writers didn't have him devolve into a one-dimensional killing machine.

One season to go with God as the principle villain.  Should be a good one.

My guess is Billie zaps them out.

[S Cook Productions]

7 hours ago, mertensia said:

Dance off. 

To Thriller. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

My guess is Billie zaps them out.

I'm going with Rowena helping. Or a hole opens up right under their feet and they land in not!Hell for a hot minute. LOL

[AwesomO4000]

36 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Or a hole opens up right under their feet and they land in not!Hell for a hot minute. LOL

Oh, that's a good one! Hell would be empty anyway right?

[Castiels Cat]

10 hours ago, mertensia said:

Dance off. 

That implies a Guarduans of the Galaxy rescue...

And yes it was stated by Cas that the souls were released from hell which I believe is a Judeo-Christian Apocalypse/End of Days kind of thang.

10 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Chuck could have lied, and some souls from Heaven got released.  Cohan has said she'd like to return for the final season.  I'd love to see her back.

Ooh-oo child, things are gonna get easier.

"Ooh..oo child..." exactly what I was thinking... except this time the casting is correct Nd Jebsen is Starlord. Pratt is a hot mess.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

17 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

This. The only way is either Chuck having a change of heart, or, most likely,  Nougat Sue beaming back from The Empty just in time to either woo out the zombies/ghosts or zapping them back to the bunker. There is no way they survive that without Supernatural intervention. 

Or maybe Sam could just yell at them and order them all back to Hell. 

He has his special effect air blast that vaporizes everything except humans. It just throws humans and Angel's backwards in slow motion. All humans except Winchesters die when it happens... usually, sometimes, maybe... I forget.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/27/2019 at 2:01 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

The worst among the litany of things wrong with the character of Jack is that they can't decide if he is emotionless or nothing bu emotion. Sorry terrible writers, he can't both be incapable of feeling love, and terribly hurt that they might not love him. As someone else said, rage is also an emotion, and he's certainly displayed that. So is fear.  He's taken satisfaction in his kills, and pride in his execution of Duma's orders. Yet we're supposed to get weepy over his confession that he can't feel love? Nope. 

IMO soullessness was the dumbest concept they ever introduced because it has been so ill conceived and inconsistent. Of course it has never been thought about at all since season since except by Meredith Glynn in her first episode. Len explained soullessness the best. His characterization was amazing. The fact that a major character, one of the leads, was soulless in season 6 and they never sat down and thought about its ramifications is inexplicable. It was Sam's major story yet all we learned was he never slept and it made him "a better hunter than rusty ole Dean"...lol. Silly Gamble... girl get a life.

The fact that they never even tried to consolidate the lore is even worse than the lol-canon surrounding reapers imo especially when they repeatedly revisit soullessness and then bestow it on another main adjacent character. 

YEESH.

This plus whiplash about Jack's evolution between Game Night and Moriah and WTF happened to Dean's very certain sealed fate???!!! 

Grrr

[ZennyKenny]

On 4/26/2019 at 8:05 AM, Castiels Cat said:

Sam was pretty stupid. Dude... don't shoot God.

Yeah, but Sam was clearly pissed and just reacting without thinking it through. You could say that he was acting in the...

...wait for it...

HEEEEAAAT OF THE MOMENT!

[Castiels Cat]

1 minute ago, ZennyKenny said:

Yeah, but Sam was clearly pissed and just reacting without thinking it through. You could say that he was acting in the...

...wait for it...

HEEEEAAAT OF THE MOMENT!

I gave you that and you took it... you are welcome.

[Casseiopeia]

As for getting out of the Zombie perdicterment they are in if there isn't a dumpster nearby then my guess is AU Bobby is going to ride in with that rag tag team of AU hunters he was going to round up.  This would fulfill Jim's appearance in all 15 seasons of Supernatural.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Casseiopeia

[Macbeth]

On April 27, 2019 at 3:38 AM, SueB said:

 "Are you not entertained?!" - Winchester Style (with apologies to Maximus Decimus Meridius, aka Gladiator). My meta head kinda exploded on that topic.  But I also know, flat out, that the cast & writers love the characters. So were they poking at themselves for torturing fictional characters or poking at the audience or both?

I liked your post a lot SueB, but I honestly have to say at this point I am not being entertained. 

I lost interest with the BMOL.  How many times will Lucifer rise from the dead??  And their universe keeps contracting as everyone keeps dying. If they are brought back - they will only die again. 

This was a great show at one point. I thought seasons 1-7 were absolutely fantastic. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Macbeth

[heisenberg]

On 4/26/2019 at 12:02 PM, Casseiopeia said:

I'm assuming there is a dumpster nearby. 

Or Rick from The Walking Dead will show up.

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, heisenberg said:

Or Rick from The Walking Dead will show up.

I would pay money to see a Dean Winchester/Rick Grimes team up.  HOLY SHIT!

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/27/2019 at 1:24 PM, catrox14 said:

Of all the dumb things in this episode, Chuck saying the father killing his son, is such billshit because the only way that works is if Lucifer killed Jack. Or Cas at best. The only reason I can see for the show putting that on Dean is that they wanted a rift between Dean and Cas. Sam would have been a more effective father figure to kill Jack. Sure, Dean woul do it because he makes those hard calls which made it seem like it's just a given that Dean was Jack's defacto father for me it doesn't wash. YMMV

Wasn't a major theme in "Unhuman Nature" the father-son bond between Jack and Dean? That was the episode... right?. Jack is dying... Dean takes him out... it is the culmination of over a season of their relationship growing. It slowly evolved to Dean becoming the one who taught Jack how to be a man and a hero. The show was pretty clear on this. 

Jack ate a hamburger, drove Baby and they fished. They both looked pretty happy as Jack said he believed his life was well lived. 

So yes. Dean was his father. This was well done.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[sarthaz]

If this is the Apocalypse for realzies, maybe Jesus will save them!

(Or Jesse).

[DeeDee79]

3 minutes ago, sarthaz said:

If this is the Apocalypse for realzies, maybe Jesus will save them!

Oh, please no! They've already ruined Heaven, angels and God. Leave Jesus out of it; I don't want my head to explode.

[catrox14]

38 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Wasn't a major theme in "Unhuman Nature" the father-son bond between Jack and Dean? That was the episode... right?. Jack is dying... Dean takes him out... it is the culmination of over a season of their relationship growing. It slowly evolved to Dean becoming the one who taught Jack how to be a man and a hero. The show was pretty clear on this. 

Jack ate a hamburger, drove Baby and they fished. They both looked pretty happy as Jack said he believed his life was well lived. 

So yes. Dean was his father. This was well done.

In your opinion, it was well done. My opinion is the polar opposite.

Just because the show wanted Dean to be wrong about Jack that's why they gave him the Unhuman Nature thing.  I've hated the entire arc with Dean being forced into being Jack's not!father and having Castiel sidelined.  I love Dean, obviously, but they really pushed too inorganically Dean being Jack's father figure for this ending.

It might be poetic symmetry but that doesn't make it good storytelling.  I think it would have had more emotional impact if Sam would have been compelled to be the one to make that choice given his attachment to Jack.  That he had to be the one to be called upon to do the hard thing this time. 

Dean being the one to do it was just...obvious.  And bad IMO. YMMV. 

1 minute ago, DeeDee79 said:

Oh, please no! They've already ruined Heaven, angels and God. Leave Jesus out of it; I don't want my head to explode.

At this point, Jack is going to end up as Jesus. 

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

At this point, Jack is going to end up as Jesus. 

Gah! Stop!!! 😡

[mertensia]

13 hours ago, S Cook Productions said:

To Thriller. 

Nah. That's passe. To Girls Just Wanna Have Fun.

[Res]

4 minutes ago, mertensia said:

Nah. That's passe. To Girls Just Wanna Have Fun.

I'm okay with passe, if it's Thriller. Or I could go with "Kung Fu Fighting".

[mertensia]

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=girls+just+want+to+have+fun+dance+off+the+orville&&view=detail&mid=96487132831F8584A49296487132831F8584A492&&FORM=VRDGAR

[ZennyKenny]

19 hours ago, Macbeth said:

This was a great show at one point. I thought seasons 1-7 were absolutely fantastic. 

Thank you for including season 7 in that. I am one of the few who loved the Leviathans.

[Macbeth]

34 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Thank you for including season 7 in that. I am one of the few who loved the Leviathans.

 I loved the Leviathans as well. 

Best scene of the show for me was when Dean, Sam and Bobby decided to enslave Death and make him their "Bitch" as Cas had gone all bats in the belfry. 

[OrigamiNightmare]

16 hours ago, catrox14 said:

In your opinion, it was well done. My opinion is the polar opposite.

Just because the show wanted Dean to be wrong about Jack that's why they gave him the Unhuman Nature thing.  I've hated the entire arc with Dean being forced into being Jack's not!father and having Castiel sidelined.  I love Dean, obviously, but they really pushed too inorganically Dean being Jack's father figure for this ending.

It might be poetic symmetry but that doesn't make it good storytelling.  I think it would have had more emotional impact if Sam would have been compelled to be the one to make that choice given his attachment to Jack.  That he had to be the one to be called upon to do the hard thing this time. 

Dean being the one to do it was just...obvious.  And bad IMO. YMMV. 

At this point, Jack is going to end up as Jesus. 

1

Oh man, I hope he doesn't end up as Jesus. Ugh, that's totally what will happen!

[DeeDee79]

2 minutes ago, OrigamiNightmare said:

Oh man, I hope he doesn't end up as Jesus. Ugh, that's totally what will happen!

If it does I may have to bail on this show for good, Jensen or no Jensen.

[Bobcatkitten]

I don't consider myself particularly religious and have been fine with angels/demons etc. But the latest thing of making God a villain is bothering me a bit. I know my sister in law was upset with it and said she might not watch anymore. And she has watched since day one. 

[ZennyKenny]

To me, the thing is that he was a walking contradiction this episode. You can't emphasize how you provide a sandbox for everyone to have freewill AND also be a writer who writes their stories. Honestly he seems more like Metatron than Chuck this episode. If the show was currently smarter than it is, I would suspect that Chuck was not actually "God", but an impersonator. After all, he was once supposedly pretending to be a prophet. Also Gabriel was once the Trickster.  

Another possibility is that this "Chuck" is evil version of God from an alternative Universe that slipped through undetected with that one spear chick, or any time a doorway to another dimension was left open for any amount of time (example: that rift that was created when Jack was born wasn't monitored 24/7).

I mean... that probably WON'T happen; they'll probably keep God evil. But just saying, there are options if they want to backpeddle.

[Lastcall]

26 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

To me, the thing is that he was a walking contradiction this episode. You can't emphasize how you provide a sandbox for everyone to have freewill AND also be a writer who writes their stories. Honestly he seems more like Metatron than Chuck this episode. If the show was currently smarter than it is, I would suspect that Chuck was not actually "God", but an impersonator. After all, he was once supposedly pretending to be a prophet. Also Gabriel was once the Trickster.  

Another possibility is that this "Chuck" is evil version of God from an alternative Universe that slipped through undetected with that one spear chick, or any time a doorway to another dimension was left open for any amount of time (example: that rift that was created when Jack was born wasn't monitored 24/7).

I mean... that probably WON'T happen; they'll probably keep God evil. But just saying, there are options if they want to backpeddle.

Everything you said is possible, pretty much every theory is at this point. IF (and that’s a big if) they stay with what was established then there is just one God and he wrote infinite drafts. I agree Chuck seemed very off. The Amara Keno bit seemed off too. Chuck could have imprisoned her again or maybe some other entity imprisoned them both and is posing as Chuck. Also if Chuck has a sister he might have a mother or father. Going off an old Star Trek episode maybe Mom and Dad will put Chuck in time out for breaking his toys. 

One new possibility I’ve been thinking about is Hell didn’t open up all around the world. They might say it was all localized and coming from the cemetery. All the ghosts would be descending on Lebanon. Sure everything would take place around the bunker but it’s the only way Sam and Dean could realistically send all their old kills back to hell (at least by hunting).

Edited April 29, 2019 by Lastcall

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I know my sister in law was upset with it and said she might not watch anymore. And she has watched since day one. 

My mom said the same thing and she's the one that got me into SPN. I find it interesting how people generally seem to get upset whenever politics is brought into television because they say that it's inappropriate or ruins their enjoyment of the show as with the interjection of current politics in this episode. Meanwhile they can make a mockery of all religions/faiths on television and no one even bats an eye. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by DeeDee79

[gonzosgirrl]

I'm not belittling anyone's faith or their offense, but IMO, this isn't God any more than Micheal or (especially) Lucifer, or any of the other biblical characters are the Christian versions from the actual bible. I guess I don't understand drawing the line at Chuck.

[DeeDee79]

It's not about drawing the line IMO. It's all based on personal beliefs and what you can and can't watch without feeling disappointed. I'm certainly quite aware that they're not drawing from actual biblical text; it doesn't mean that I can't be aggravated and comment on what they choose to depict for entertainment purposes. 

[Castiels Cat]

2 hours ago, Lastcall said:

Everything you said is possible, pretty much every theory is at this point. IF (and that’s a big if) they stay with what was established then there is just one God and he wrote infinite drafts. I agree Chuck seemed very off. The Amara Keno bit seemed off too. Chuck could have imprisoned her again or maybe some other entity imprisoned them both and is posing as Chuck. Also if Chuck has a sister he might have a mother or father. Going off an old Star Trek episode maybe Mom and Dad will put Chuck in time out for breaking his toys. 

One new possibility I’ve been thinking about is Hell didn’t open up all around the world. They might say it was all localized and coming from the cemetery. All the ghosts would be descending on Lebanon. Sure everything would take place around the bunker but it’s the only way Sam and Dean could realistically send all their old kills back to hell (at least by hunting).

Chuck lies and manipulates. Both are obvious within this script. Chuck can do anything with a snap. He can kill Jack with a snap which means he is neither afraid of him and  also that Jack is nowhere near powerful as God. Likewise his manipulation of Dean prior to the end is obvious. The manipulation could not trump love and family, and Dean did love Jack like a son. once he saw Jack as something other than a monster again that came flooding back.

Free Will exists but the deck is stacked. Dean exercised free will by not pulling the trigger despite everything being set up for him to pull it.

This is precisely why Metatron. When he was playing God, physically inserted himself in the story and did the stabbing himself. He recognized the problem that the Winchesters + free will created, especially Dean Winchester + free will.

[gonzosgirrl]

But if Chuck is all powerful and everything in the Winchester's lives is a construct for his amusement, wouldn't that also mean Jack is his creation?

[Castiels Cat]

33 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But if Chuck is all powerful and everything in the Winchester's lives is a construct for his amusement, wouldn't that also mean Jack is his creation?

???

I think their Universe is his construct and he finds them generally to be the most interesting things in it especially Dean, which is why Dean got to change the story twice in season 5 and why Dean got special time in season 11 and why God officially made everything Dean's responsibility ("firewall" nonsense), and why God really really wanted to see Dean shoot Jack. It was the uber OPT moment of all time.

Even God knows Dean is the coolest thing ever and Dean suffering makes the best storylines 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[Castiels Cat]

17 hours ago, mertensia said:

Nah. That's passe. To Girls Just Wanna Have Fun.

It's secretly Dean's favorite song.

[Castiels Cat]

On 4/28/2019 at 9:37 PM, catrox14 said:

In your opinion, it was well done. My opinion is the polar opposite.

Just because the show wanted Dean to be wrong about Jack that's why they gave him the Unhuman Nature thing.  I've hated the entire arc with Dean being forced into being Jack's not!father and having Castiel sidelined.  I love Dean, obviously, but they really pushed too inorganically Dean being Jack's father figure for this ending.

It might be poetic symmetry but that doesn't make it good storytelling.  I think it would have had more emotional impact if Sam would have been compelled to be the one to make that choice given his attachment to Jack.  That he had to be the one to be called upon to do the hard thing this time. 

Dean being the one to do it was just...obvious.  And bad IMO. YMMV. 

At this point, Jack is going to end up as Jesus. 

They had Jack start copying him immediately (to comic effect) and try to please him last season. It is why he began his quest to find a way to save Mary. He earned Dean's respect with his quest and Dean proclaimed he was one of them. When Jack was lost in the Apocalypse world Dean wanted to save Mary AND Jack. When Lucifer teleported away with Sam and Jack Dean was desperate to save both of them. When Jack lay dying, Dean could not be by his bedside because he was overcome with grief and both Sam and Cas understood that Jack's death hit Dean the hardest because Dean viewed him like a son.

Their heroic storylines were closely mirrored in seasons 13 and 14 partly because Jack wanted to grow up and be just like Dean.

The build-up was for two seasons. Dean's love of Jack as a son was an emotional storyline for him this season. It was explicit subtext and text in 3 episodes: Unhuman Nature, Byzantium and Moriah.

Oh and Ouroboros too. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Castiels Cat

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

???

I think their Universe is his construct and he finds them generally to be the most interesting things in it especially Dean, which is why Dean got to change the story twice in season 5 and why Dean got special time in season 11 and why God officially made everything Dean's responsibility ("firewall" nonsense), and why God really really wanted to see Dean shoot Jack. It was the uber OPT moment of all time.

Even God knows Dean is the coolest thing ever and Dean suffering makes the best storylines 

What has that got to do with it though.

My point was that Jack and the circumstances of his existence are all part of Chuck's story - and it's all so lame, because it means literally nothing the Winchesters (or anyone else) does, matters. They can kill all the monsters again, and Chuck can snap his fingers again, or not. It is terrible, terrible story telling because there is literally nothing that can't be undone, or redone. There are no stakes. So why should we care about any of it? I love a good Dean-whumping as much as anyone, but there has to be some kind of risk and consequence, or what's the damn point?

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

What has that got to do with it though.

My point was that Jack and the circumstances of his existence are all part of Chuck's story - and it's all so lame, because it means literally nothing the Winchesters (or anyone else) does, matters. They can kill all the monsters again, and Chuck can snap his fingers again, or not. It is terrible, terrible story telling because there is literally nothing that can't be undone, or redone. There are no stakes. So why should we care about any of it? I love a good Dean-whumping as much as anyone, but there has to be some kind of risk and consequence, or what's the damn point?

 Dabb has shown us Supernatural for just what it is. A television show where Sam and Dean and all of their allies and foes are just made up characters. 

Thanks Andrew. You finally did it.  You made me feel stupid for being fan.

[DeeDee79]

Recap/Review from The SnowLeopard for anyone that's familiar with her blog that may be interested in the read. Fair warning she wasn't too fond of Cas or Jack: http://thesnowleopard.net/thehistoricalmeow/2019/04/27/the-official-supernatural-moriah-14-20-season-finale-live-recap-thread/

[SueB]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I'm not belittling anyone's faith or their offense, but IMO, this isn't God any more than Micheal or (especially) Lucifer, or any of the other biblical characters are the Christian versions from the actual bible. I guess I don't understand drawing the line at Chuck.

Fair question. I can only answer for myself, but it’s something along the lines — even if he was a hands-off God in the Supernatural universe, he was Team Humanity, Team Sam & Dean, and Team Free Will.  So God represented the show’s ideals of good vs evil. And yes, they pretty much were in line with the ‘source’ lore (i.e. the Abrahmic perspective on God).  So, even if all the Angels were misbehaving, the most powerful entity (God) supported Sam & Dean’s understanding of right and wrong.  Dean even said to Amara ‘The Golden Rule, brother’s keeper... it IS his universe.’

Now?  What universe is it?  The ideals Sam & Dean embody are just plot points?  And they have suffered their whole life not because they were doing the right thing but because it amused Chuck?  Pretty shitty statement on the natural order and the concepts of ‘right and wrong’  

Ultimately, I reject what Chuck is currently selling.  I’ll content myself that his original concepts of souls, humanity, free will, and saving people were the right concepts to establish in the world’s ethos — even if the original ‘author’ has somehow abandoned these ideals.  

But it still pisses me off.  If ‘God is evil’ was the show’s original premise, then investing in the characters for 14 years is done with eyes wide open.  Instead, we’ve had every indication that while ‘absentee’, God was basically the good guy.  And now I feel hoodwinked that I’ve actually been supporting a show that I’m not morally comfortable with.  I can’t support the show with the same level of attachment because it’s gone to a place I’m not willing to follow.  

Ultimately, it’s their show.  This is the story they want to tell.  So I’ll take it for what it is, enjoy what I can.  But if this plot twist sticks permanently, it makes me sad. 

[Bergamot]

16 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I don't consider myself particularly religious and have been fine with angels/demons etc. But the latest thing of making God a villain is bothering me a bit. I know my sister in law was upset with it and said she might not watch anymore. And she has watched since day one. 

I would have thought that the earlier version of Chuck in Season 11, for example in "All in the Family", would be equally problematic to many.  A God who admits that he could not fix his creation, and so stopped trying? Dean very rightly called him out on that. Or as the Nobel Prize winning writer Elie Wiesel put it, in response to a similar premise put forth by author Harold Kushner (that God cared about the suffering of humanity but could not do anything about it): "If that's who God is then He should resign and let someone more competent take over."

But my point is not which version of God we should see on the show (no way do I want to get into that discussion), it's that it was just a very, very bad idea for the show to bring God onto the show as a character, rather than leave him as a mysterious and unknowable figure. Not that who God is should never be discussed on a TV show, but not on this show and definitely, definitely not by these writers. These writers? Trying to be clever about writing God as a character? No thanks. Chuck the prophet was a wonderful and original character, and I thought the way he was written worked well for the show. But Chuck as God was a big mistake.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Bergamot

[Pondlass1]

1 hour ago, Bergamot said:

But Chuck as God was a big mistake.

I'm not religious at all, in fact I'm an atheist.  But I agree.  They should've kept him as a prophet.... maybe alpha prophet.  But not God.

Especially as the actor is not particularly good.

[Lastcall]

I’m in the “they should have never made God a character” camp also. However, since they went there, I saw Chuck as a God with good intentions and who’s creations were very flawed. Any time he was actively involved with them, things got worse. So he played a long game nudging humanity along until they became the creations he intended. Earth was the proving ground and those that could truly get along and be what Chuck intended would go to the place he envisioned...heaven. 

If this version stays then we have an entirely different show. It becomes Lovecraft, impossibly powerful cosmic entities that care nothing about humanity. At best, we are entertainment and even Heaven will fall when Chuck no longer wants to watch.    

Maybe that’s where this is all going. The creations kill the creator and choose their own destiny. They try to become the God they wanted but find the goal impossible to achieve so the cycle repeats itself. Man that’s a nihilistic way to go if they play it that way.

[SueB]

54 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I’m in the “they should have never made God a character” camp also. However, since they went there, I saw Chuck as a God with good intentions and who’s creations were very flawed. Any time he was actively involved with them, things got worse. So he played a long game nudging humanity along until they became the creations he intended. Earth was the proving ground and those that could truly get along and be what Chuck intended would go to the place he envisioned...heaven. 

If this version stays then we have an entirely different show. It becomes Lovecraft, impossibly powerful cosmic entities that care nothing about humanity. At best, we are entertainment and even Heaven will fall when Chuck no longer wants to watch.    

Maybe that’s where this is all going. The creations kill the creator and choose their own destiny. They try to become the God they wanted but find the goal impossible to achieve so the cycle repeats itself. Man that’s a nihilistic way to go if they play it that way.

Bingo. And ITA about the Lovecraft angle.  

[gonzosgirrl]

11 hours ago, SueB said:

Fair question. I can only answer for myself, but it’s something along the lines — even if he was a hands-off God in the Supernatural universe, he was Team Humanity, Team Sam & Dean, and Team Free Will.  So God represented the show’s ideals of good vs evil. And yes, they pretty much were in line with the ‘source’ lore (i.e. the Abrahmic perspective on God).  So, even if all the Angels were misbehaving, the most powerful entity (God) supported Sam & Dean’s understanding of right and wrong.  Dean even said to Amara ‘The Golden Rule, brother’s keeper... it IS his universe.’

Now?  What universe is it?  The ideals Sam & Dean embody are just plot points?  And they have suffered their whole life not because they were doing the right thing but because it amused Chuck?  Pretty shitty statement on the natural order and the concepts of ‘right and wrong’  

Ultimately, I reject what Chuck is currently selling.  I’ll content myself that his original concepts of souls, humanity, free will, and saving people were the right concepts to establish in the world’s ethos — even if the original ‘author’ has somehow abandoned these ideals.  

But it still pisses me off.  If ‘God is evil’ was the show’s original premise, then investing in the characters for 14 years is done with eyes wide open.  Instead, we’ve had every indication that while ‘absentee’, God was basically the good guy.  And now I feel hoodwinked that I’ve actually been supporting a show that I’m not morally comfortable with.  I can’t support the show with the same level of attachment because it’s gone to a place I’m not willing to follow.  

Ultimately, it’s their show.  This is the story they want to tell.  So I’ll take it for what it is, enjoy what I can.  But if this plot twist sticks permanently, it makes me sad. 

And this was my point in my next post. Dabb has changed the nature of the show, and it's not a good change. Frankly, I'm not sure he is even aware of the implications, and if he is, then I have to question his intentions.

I am honestly hoping for a big 'gotcha' in the opening five minutes in which he (Chuck/God) takes it all back, or it's revealed he wasn't really Chuck but the Trickster, and they immediately kill him once and for all.

Otherwise, I don't want to watch the show any more, because there can be no emotional investment and I care too much about the Winchesters to accept this. It's worse than their whole lives being for nothing - their whole lives were not even real. No thank you.

[S Cook Productions]

15 hours ago, SueB said:

Fair question. I can only answer for myself, but it’s something along the lines — even if he was a hands-off God in the Supernatural universe, he was Team Humanity, Team Sam & Dean, and Team Free Will.  So God represented the show’s ideals of good vs evil. And yes, they pretty much were in line with the ‘source’ lore (i.e. the Abrahmic perspective on God).  So, even if all the Angels were misbehaving, the most powerful entity (God) supported Sam & Dean’s understanding of right and wrong.  Dean even said to Amara ‘The Golden Rule, brother’s keeper... it IS his universe.’

Now?  What universe is it?  The ideals Sam & Dean embody are just plot points?  And they have suffered their whole life not because they were doing the right thing but because it amused Chuck?  Pretty shitty statement on the natural order and the concepts of ‘right and wrong’  

Ultimately, I reject what Chuck is currently selling.  I’ll content myself that his original concepts of souls, humanity, free will, and saving people were the right concepts to establish in the world’s ethos — even if the original ‘author’ has somehow abandoned these ideals.  

But it still pisses me off.  If ‘God is evil’ was the show’s original premise, then investing in the characters for 14 years is done with eyes wide open.  Instead, we’ve had every indication that while ‘absentee’, God was basically the good guy.  And now I feel hoodwinked that I’ve actually been supporting a show that I’m not morally comfortable with.  I can’t support the show with the same level of attachment because it’s gone to a place I’m not willing to follow.  

Ultimately, it’s their show.  This is the story they want to tell.  So I’ll take it for what it is, enjoy what I can.  But if this plot twist sticks permanently, it makes me sad. 

This. So much all of this. Exactly!