S02.E08: Moon Shadow

[formerlyfreedom]

SEASON FINALE!

Quote

Wednesday has disappeared, and Shadow is tormented. Those that remain witness the power of New Media as she is unleashed, and the nation is enveloped in a state of panic brought on by Mr. World, who cunningly illustrates the power of fear and belief.

Airing Sunday, April 28, 2019. Please note, Starz makes episodes available on demand earlier than the broadcast time. Entering this topic may spoil you if you enter it before air time on 4/28.

 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Honestly, I'm kind of relieved that the season is finally over because it was becoming almost a chore to watch. It was always beautiful but unfortunately, that wasn't enough for me. I'm hoping that they get their shit together next season with the new showrunner.

Awwww, Salim and Jinn!

[Mr. Sparkle]

I just woke up early to watch, and yeah, what a mess. I won't discuss it until tomorrow for those who haven't seen it, but I really hope it's better next season. 

[nodorothyparker]

Ye gods, what an incomprehensible mess.  About the only thing that worked was Shadow and Salim sharing that brief moment of appreciating as the only live mortals in the building just how potentially screwed they are with these people.  I have no idea where Laura's going, but I hope she knows something we don't because this is becoming near unwatchable.

[hnygrl]

Unpopular opinion:  Liked it.  It wrapped up this and last seasons’ storylines nicely. And As soon as he was on the bus? My first thought was “So Mike Ainsel finally makes his way to Lakeside...” And sure enough. I was kinda worried we wouldn’t see Lakeside in this iteration but it looks like we are. 

Not sure, but it appears Shadow put two and two together and got dad. Next season should be very interesting.  And the Mad Sweeney/DeadWife saga...continues...?

What did we think of tech boy 2.0? I was not impressed. 

[ombre]

Watched over breakfast, have been mulling through the morning.  I'd probably give this ep and the season overall a B/B- with the option for extra credit next season to see how they build on the pieces laid out here.  Got the job done, but for me, it feels like a missed opportunity. 

There were some nice moments, but the meat of the episode - Shadow's realizations - was a bit meh for me.  That said, Laura's scenes and Bilquis's scenes were great and left me hungry to see what comes next for each of them.  They've clearly got Plans.  And I'm all kinds of ready for some quiet time in Lakeside.

On the broader level, I think they made too much season out of too little material.  But I can see *why* they did it.  They wanted to end last season and this with two really important moments in Shadow's life - his coming to believe and then his profound disillusionment (or, alternatively, Wednesday's rise and then cowardly slinking off).  And the larger power dynamics work with that - assembling the team and then breaking the team into a seemingly unsolvable mess.  And you know what?  I can't fault them for that logic!  I can't even fault them for wanting to put a whole season in between those poles, to give some real weight to the disillusionment and some real dude wtf to the scattering.

And there's the missed opportunity - if you've got a set start point and end point and not much material for the middle, invent something *fun*!  They've shown that they can write some really wonderful stories into the space between the book-canon events.  They just... didn't do quite enough of that.  Salim and the Jinn could have had an actual relationship!  Or more of young Shadow.  Or seeing hints of Sweeney's madness.  Or, most especially, more Coming to America.  By my count, there were three CtA stories - a very short one for Argus, a more real-world one for Shadow, and the lovely one for Tech Boy.  I could happily have had more of that (Mama-Ji, for instance!  Particularly if she'd come over through the Caribbean, as so many people of Indian heritage did and had her own previous run-ins with the Vodou crowd!).  Or, heck, more of any of the bit players in the spear storyline.

That said, I mostly liked the elements that *were* added this season.  (With a huge darned exception for the lynching story, but I wrote about that in the ep 5 thread.)  I even liked the fact that we spent so much time in the funeral home.  Put me in mind of the summer John Brown and his crew spent living near Harper's Ferry and pretty much just sharpening their gazillion pikes and dirks and slowly going stir crazy.

So.  I'm still looking forward to next season.  At this point, I'm mostly here for Laura and Bilquis (and Sweeney, if if if if only), but I'm rooting for Shadow, too.  And I don't know what's going on with some of the others, but if there's some there there I want to see it.

18 hours ago, hnygrl said:

What did we think of tech boy 2.0? I was not impressed. 

Man, that poor actor has a heavy lift.  Is there anybody who didn't viscerally loathe his first iteration?  He might have been able to pull this change off if 1.0 weren't so repulsive.  I like that he's getting to play out the essence of Sweeney's warning to Shadow about how the gods aren't the heroes of the story (and all the broader implications of that idea and that discussion).  And I like that his rebirth mirrors larger real life trends of "Hey this tech is cool!" to "Whoa, this tech is scary!"  But his transformation into something more lethal felt lacking.  Just more of the same.  I guess we'll see how his story plays out, too.  

Edited April 29, 2019 by ombre
Typos. Feh.

[DarkRaichu]

Meh.

This thing is a mess.  My interest is nearing 0.

Tech 2.0 is still subservant to World? Why? With new power he did not even attempt to defy World? Whatever...

I think Laura is bringing Sweeney to Baron Samedi to bring him back to life.  Although with so many still believe in Leprechaun, how did Sweeney be dead?

Edited April 28, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[nodorothyparker]

2 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

I think Laura is bringing Sweeney to Baron Samedi to bring him back to life.  Although with so many still believe in Leprechaun, how did Sweeney be dead?

I wondered that too and then wondered if it was too obvious a solution.  But then I realized I don't really care how they do it as long as they present a plausible way to bring the character back as my interest is barely hanging on despite really striking visuals and ideas.  I have to think the whole conversation at the cafe shooting at the beginning of the season about how gods come back/regenerate/whatever as long as there's still some belief somewhere was there for a reason.  Even the drunken nonsense that mostly is St. Patrick's Day in America should give Sweeney something in the same way that chocolate eggs and worship in an entirely different religion that has nothing to do with her prop up Easter.

[mjc570]

About the only things I liked were the snails, and Laura toting Sweeney.  I've always liked DW + MS, so there is hope.  Glad the season's over.  Great acting, lousy writing.

Edited April 29, 2019 by mjc570
spelling

[showme]

Can someone confirm for me that Shadow Moon is Wednesday's illegitimate son? Is that the realization Shadow had when cutting at the tree? If so, doesn't that make him half god? How come he has no supernatural abilities?

And what happened with that tree? So he cut it down, and it beams him onto a bus??? so weird.

Edited April 29, 2019 by showme

[ombre]

7 hours ago, mjc570 said:

About the only things I liked were the snails...

After last week, some small part of my brain was all "what did you *do* to those three mourning ladies?!?" 

41 minutes ago, showme said:

Can someone confirm for me that Shadow Moon is Wednesday's illegitimate son? Is that the realization Shadow had when cutting at the tree? If so, doesn't that make him half god? How come he has no supernatural abilities?

And what happened with that tree? So he cut it down, and it beam him onto a bus??? so weird.

Spoiler tagging for anyone who prefers ambiguity. Only addressing the first question:

Spoiler

Yes, shadow's his son. 

As for the rest of your post, that's totally what I mean by the meat of the ep is a confusing mess. It feels like the way some of my favorites authors (Robin McKinley, haruki Murakami, etc) always have 50 pages of strange atmospheric mystical... crap. The rest of the book is generally excellent, but that 50 pages, you can read them again and again and every time come out all question marks.  Interesting to watch them do that here and have the same oh ffs reaction. The best I can say is: at least it wasn't 50 pages of it! 

I read an interesting interview with gaiman (https://deadline.com/2019/04/american-gods-spoilers-neil-gaiman-season-2-finale-1202603555/) where he talks about the overall pacing of the season and putting the emphasis on ep 7 instead if ep 8:

DEADLINE: I thought it [ep 7] was a very powerful episode and one in which we really got a sense for the first time, I think, in American Gods of the consequence of this war and the role that it plays internally, for the old Gods…

GAIMAN: The finale of a show used to be the big, exciting one, and instead, episode 7 is really the big, exciting one, and the finale is much quieter, much more content. I think, it takes us along, and it’s definitely one of those things, which is fascinating.

Frankly, I feel like show work best when they follow *one* approach (explosions in penultimate ep, wrap things/move on in last ep VS last ep big explosions) rather than mixing between them. Establishing expectations (creating anticipation) and then meeting them (creating satisfaction) is a big part of successful storytelling. Last season ended with a a bang, so it was not unreasonable to expect that this one would. And after the Sweeney ep, I certainly had the feeling geez, what can top *that*? And the answer was, nope, sorry. Can't. Not gonna try. Which... Leaves a sense of dissatisfaction. 

[terrymct]

19 hours ago, hnygrl said:

Unpopular opinion:  Liked it.  It wrapped up this and last seasons’ storylines nicely. And As soon as he was on the bus? My first thought was “So Mike Ainsel finally makes his way to Lakeside...” And sure enough. I was kinda worried we wouldn’t see Lakeside in this iteration but it looks like we are. 

Not sure, but it appears Shadow put two and two together and got dad. Next season should be very interesting.  And the Mad Sweeney/DeadWife saga...continues...?

What did we think of tech boy 2.0? I was not impressed. 

I liked it, too, but I think I need to watch it again to pick up on a few things.  All the side stories are very much in the spirit of the book, even though not all of them occur in the book.  Gaiman does enjoy taking a side trip on a regular basis.

Shadow is learning step by step that he's not who or what he thought he was.   Mr Nancy and Anubis' exchange while playing chess was a whole lot of foreshadowing.

Tech boy 2.0, my opinion is up for grabs yet.  He needs to be arrogant as heck because that's the Silicon Valley sort of attitude.  They think they can solve any problem with a quickly written app and no knowledge of the actual industry/market in which they're getting involved.  The rebirth of Tech Boy and Media gave Mr World a stronger command of information flow and creation, even the ease of falsification.   I think that's what this was supposed to demonstrate.  I liked the link back to the War of the Worlds.  Fear makes something real.  The gods need people to think they're real.  For a god like Bilquis, that's through adoration since she's a love god.  For Wednesday, his primary route would be fear since he's a god of war.  Mamma Ji is a war god, but she's got two faces.  Nurturer and Destroyer, so she can get what she needs by taking care of people in diners across the country.  Wednesday couldn't nuture something unless it was going to pay off for him in the end..which means it's not true nuturing.

[Lemur]

4 hours ago, ombre said:

I read an interesting interview with gaiman (https://deadline.com/2019/04/american-gods-spoilers-neil-gaiman-season-2-finale-1202603555/) where he talks about the overall pacing of the season and putting the emphasis on ep 7 instead if ep 8:

DEADLINE: I thought it [ep 7] was a very powerful episode and one in which we really got a sense for the first time, I think, in American Gods of the consequence of this war and the role that it plays internally, for the old Gods…

GAIMAN: The finale of a show used to be the big, exciting one, and instead, episode 7 is really the big, exciting one, and the finale is much quieter, much more content. I think, it takes us along, and it’s definitely one of those things, which is fascinating.

This is pretty much the "Prestige Television" model these days though - you see it on a lot of the big time cable productions (GOT, West World, etc.), and was popularized by The Sopranos.  The penultimate episode is the climax of the season and the finale is the denouement that starts tying up loose ends and setting the stage for the next season.

5 hours ago, showme said:

Can someone confirm for me that Shadow Moon is Wednesday's illegitimate son? Is that the realization Shadow had when cutting at the tree? If so, doesn't that make him half god? How come he has no supernatural abilities?

And what happened with that tree? So he cut it down, and it beams him onto a bus??? so weird.

That tree is Yddrasil, the World Tree.  He didn't cut it down, he merely cut into it.  Yddrasil is more resilient than that.  And it didn't beam him into the bus (which would have been a little too on the nose - using an axe to summon the Bifrost ... or I could just have The Avengers on the brain).  He was able to go "backstage" and counter the FBI beating down the door, or so it seems.  Anyway, on to Lakeside or Lakewood or whatever we're calling it now. 

[AuntieMame]

Life got...interesting and I temporarily drifted away from the weekly episodes, figuring that I would have the treat of a binge watch. I was so invested after the end of the first season. I will still do my binge, but reading here it seems the problems behind the scenes translated to the screen. 

[rab01]

I dozed off during this episode so I'm going to have to rewatch it.  Reading people's posts this morning makes me half-dread that rewatch but, much diminished though the show may be from last season, I still kind of like it.  

I was, however, awake for the early scene between Shadow and Dead Wife so one question -- Does the same DW who regularly contemplated suicide in S1 seem like the same person who would have a very Rom-Com standard reaction to seeing a cute puppy? And does the same Shadow who committed a robbery to help her feel alive seem like someone who wouldn't have immediately bought her a puppy?

[DarkRaichu]

7 hours ago, Lemur said:

That tree is Yddrasil, the World Tree.  He didn't cut it down, he merely cut into it.  Yddrasil is more resilient than that.  And it didn't beam him into the bus (which would have been a little too on the nose - using an axe to summon the Bifrost ... or I could just have The Avengers on the brain).  He was able to go "backstage" and counter the FBI beating down the door, or so it seems.  Anyway, on to Lakeside or Lakewood or whatever we're calling it now. 

Technically Ydrassil pulled him into itself.  Then he realized / put together the clues in that backstage.  Not only that, he basically used his power to reset reality.  In the flashback he was playing cops marching to a dollhouse.  When he removed the toy cops from the yard, that also happenned in front of Ibis funeral house.  The cops that surrounded the house just vanished.

Then he broke through Ydrassil, maybe via backstage, and I assume he took Ydrassil with him, leaving the axe on the floor.

[tennisgurl]

Well it took for freaking ever, but we are finally on route to Lakeside! Lets get this literal show on the actual road.

This season has certainly had some good episodes and even some great moments, but its taken a serious downgrade since the first season. The change in show runners, followed by a number of cast members leaving forcing them to abruptly change plots this season, clearly hurt the show, taking what was often dreamlike, and just turning it plodding and complicated. 

I honestly dont mind them expanding on the source material, at least I didnt mind it last season. Its such a large and complex world, with so many characters and avenues to explore, that while it wasent very plot heavy, the book wasent really either. This season however, just felt like a lot of padding, especially in the middle. Even worse, the story started to become generic, and American Gods is many things, but generic it is not. Or possibly worse, it just became nonsensical. 

Much like this episode. New Media faking a financial attack (like War of the Worlds? Maybe?) and everything surrounding that was just confusing, as was the rebirth of Technology Boy as...AI Boy? The whole thing was just confusing, and while i could see some good ideas in there, it was all such a mess, like they were throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick. Much like this season in general. Lots of ideas, some of which had potential, but most were never really used to their full potential. Like, the War of the Worlds stuff was really a cool idea to explore more, and showing the way that stories and media can create fear that makes something real, but, again, didnt get fully fleshed out as much as I wanted it to. 

I did like some of the episode. I do enjoy watching the gods just shooting the shit, snarking, and waxing philosophical (the actors are just that good), poor Salim is still one of my favorite things about the season, and he and the Jinn going off together at the end was so sweet, I really hope things work out for them, till death do they part and all that. And him and Shadow both bonding a bit over being the only normal people in the god house was a nice bit as well. I am also very interested to see what Laura is up to, dragging Sweenys dead body off to parts unknown. Awww, Dead Wife you old softie, good thing she knows a lot about resurrection these days. I guess she isnt done with our favorite drunken leprechaun! So how does one go about resurrecting a dead ancient Celtic god/fairy/king? 

I really hope we get back on track next season, and the new showrunner does a better job of getting this show running again. Its still lovely to look at, and the performances are still great, but the plot itself has just gone totally off the rails. Hopefully next season gets back to at least close to season 1 quality.

Edited April 30, 2019 by tennisgurl

[terrymct]

18 hours ago, rab01 said:

I was, however, awake for the early scene between Shadow and Dead Wife so one question -- Does the same DW who regularly contemplated suicide in S1 seem like the same person who would have a very Rom-Com standard reaction to seeing a cute puppy? And does the same Shadow who committed a robbery to help her feel alive seem like someone who wouldn't have immediately bought her a puppy?

It seemed like more playing between them, cutesy talk, than more about an actual puppy.  

Edited April 30, 2019 by terrymct

[showme]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Awww, Dead Wife you old softie, good thing she knows a lot about resurrection these days. I guess she isnt done with our favorite drunken leprechaun! So how does one go about resurrecting a dead ancient Celtic god/fairy/king?  

I hope she find a way to bring him back, but the actor has joined another show, so maybe it is not a good sign?

[rab01]

1 hour ago, terrymct said:

It seemed like more playing between them, cutesy talk, then more about an actual puppy.  

Well, yeah of course it's just playing around cutesy talk and what bugged me is that they didn't sound anything like the couple we met last season.

I got a chance to watch it again tonight and it was just sort of there, filler to finish the episode order.  On second viewing, there were a lot of boring shots of Shadow walking around the house and the chat between Technical Boy 2.0 and his creator/acolyte was surprisingly drab.

Also, I have to say the nudity this season feels gratuitous in a way it didn't last year.  I enjoy seeing Bilquis naked as much as the next guy but there wasn't any plot reason this time and it didn't have any of the visual or mythological interest that those scenes had last year.

[ombre]

22 hours ago, terrymct said:

Tech boy 2.0, my opinion is up for grabs yet.  He needs to be arrogant as heck because that's the Silicon Valley sort of attitude.  They think they can solve any problem with a quickly written app and no knowledge of the actual industry/market in which they're getting involved.  The rebirth of Tech Boy and Media gave Mr World a stronger command of information flow and creation, even the ease of falsification.   I think that's what this was supposed to demonstrate.  I liked the link back to the War of the Worlds.  Fear makes something real.  The gods need people to think they're real.  For a god like Bilquis, that's through adoration since she's a love god.  For Wednesday, his primary route would be fear since he's a god of war.  Mamma Ji is a war god, but she's got two faces.  Nurturer and Destroyer, so she can get what she needs by taking care of people in diners across the country.  Wednesday couldn't nuture something unless it was going to pay off for him in the end..which means it's not true nuturing.

I really like these observations.  They get at the one-sidedness of gods.  They are, in effect, metaphors.  Shorthand for much larger ideas.  Which means that they often can't adapt without losing their identity.  And while some have different facets, there can be, in their heart, a one-dimensionality because, like the scorpion, they just gotta do what they gotta do.

Perhaps where Sweeney is such an intriguing character in the show.  He's certainly had plenty of god-like flatness (brawlin', drinkin', regretin', etc.), but it's through his interactions with one of the most human characters that he remembered his own human roots and got access to a *whooooole* different range of emotions and actions.  

19 hours ago, Lemur said:

This is pretty much the "Prestige Television" model these days though - you see it on a lot of the big time cable productions (GOT, West World, etc.), and was popularized by The Sopranos.  The penultimate episode is the climax of the season and the finale is the denouement that starts tying up loose ends and setting the stage for the next season.

Of course.  But that's only tangentially related to my point.  My point is that most shows pick *one* method and stick with it because form *is* function.  It's like cities - you don't mix all building sizes willy-nilly, you put like sizes or functions in one place, which creates usefulness (go to X for your choice in Y) and meaning (neighborhoodliness).  One way to make the mess of this season less messy would be to look at the previous season and the expectations that its overall structure created and figure out at least how to not let this season's *structure* create dissatisfaction (first season ended with a crescendo, so at least don't have second season appear to end with a crescendo and then just tear the pages out of the scores so everyone's just fumbling around).  I'm not saying they need to go back to, say, the rigidity of the Buffy Formula, but rather that there are a lot of ways to create meaning and clarity not not look like you're stumbling through the woods and this just isn't it.

The obvious counterargument is that this is, ultimately, a story about Shadow, and both finale eps are huge developments in Shadow's life.  But they minimized even that big revelation by trying to have it both ways - by trying to make Shadow's realizations both epic and still shrouded in mystery, and thus instead made them meaningless and confusing.  I've read the book, I know what's going on, but I feel like I can't talk about his realizations for fear of spoiling a piece that has been shown on screen but in such a convoluted way that it feels like its still supposed to be unclear.  

10 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Much like this episode. New Media faking a financial attack (like War of the Worlds? Maybe?) and everything surrounding that was just confusing, as was the rebirth of Technology Boy as...AI Boy? The whole thing was just confusing, and while i could see some good ideas in there, it was all such a mess, like they were throwing stuff at the wall to see what would stick. Much like this season in general. Lots of ideas, some of which had potential, but most were never really used to their full potential. Like, the War of the Worlds stuff was really a cool idea to explore more, and showing the way that stories and media can create fear that makes something real, but, again, didnt get fully fleshed out as much as I wanted it to. 

...

I really hope we get back on track next season, and the new showrunner does a better job of getting this show running again. Its still lovely to look at, and the performances are still great, but the plot itself has just gone totally off the rails. Hopefully next season gets back to at least close to season 1 quality.

I'm starting to think they should have ditched ep 2 and expanded *this* ep into two eps.  The pacing was so choppy - the leisurely stroll through War of the Worlds, but then running through the New Gods' hoax so fast that you only barely get a sense of what's going on.

In retrospect, the fact that they put out the news about Season 3 so surprisingly early should have said everything we needed to know about this season.  "Sorry 'bout this season, folks, just get through it and we'll all cross our fingers for season 3!"

I made the mistake yesterday of going back and watching part of season 1 while I still have my Starz access.  I'd forgotten how breath-takingly good season 1 was.  Frankly, they're (we're?) *lucky* it was such a long wait before season 2 to let us all forget just where the bar was. 

[terrymct]

9 hours ago, rab01 said:

Well, yeah of course it's just playing around cutesy talk and what bugged me is that they didn't sound anything like the couple we met last season.

I got a chance to watch it again tonight and it was just sort of there, filler to finish the episode order.  On second viewing, there were a lot of boring shots of Shadow walking around the house and the chat between Technical Boy 2.0 and his creator/acolyte was surprisingly drab.

Also, I have to say the nudity this season feels gratuitous in a way it didn't last year.  I enjoy seeing Bilquis naked as much as the next guy but there wasn't any plot reason this time and it didn't have any of the visual or mythological interest that those scenes had last year.

My take is that their relationship changed substantially after her affair came to light.  Before she'd manipulate him, including through the cutsie stuff.  He was in love and played her games.  At this point, there's something I know about why he was in jail but I can't recall if it was included in the show or only in the book.  I'm not going to go into it, just in case.

After he found out she was screwing around with his best friend while he was incarcerated, he views her with a more jaundiced eye and she's dropped the "little girl" cutesy crap.

[DarkRaichu]

1 hour ago, terrymct said:

At this point, there's something I know about why he was in jail but I can't recall if it was included in the show or only in the book.

I only watched the shows.  Not sure if this is what you are referring to but he was in jail because he was covering for her.  It was her plan to rob the casino she worked at.  So him being in jail was also the result of playing her games.

When he said "don't call me puppy", he effectively said he was no longer in that game of hers

[ombre]

21 hours ago, rab01 said:

I was, however, awake for the early scene between Shadow and Dead Wife so one question -- Does the same DW who regularly contemplated suicide in S1 seem like the same person who would have a very Rom-Com standard reaction to seeing a cute puppy? And does the same Shadow who committed a robbery to help her feel alive seem like someone who wouldn't have immediately bought her a puppy?

Rewatching their ep in Season 1as I make lunch. I'd forgotten that they even had a different (and more fitting) explanation for her calling him puppy (she'd been making fun of him as a sad puppy). 

ETA: oh dear god, this was such a good episode. I don't think I've ever seen any other TV that so accurately depicts the grey of depression. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by ombre
Groan.

[terrymct]

1 hour ago, DarkRaichu said:

I only watched the shows.  Not sure if this is what you are referring to but he was in jail because he was covering for her.  It was her plan to rob the casino she worked at.  So him being in jail was also the result of playing her games.

When he said "don't call me puppy", he effectively said he was no longer in that game of hers

Thank you!  Yes.  That's what I meant and couldn't remember if it had been in the show yet.

[nodorothyparker]

39 minutes ago, ombre said:

oh dear god, this was such a good episode. I don't think I've ever seen any other TV that so accurately depicts the grey of depression. 

This.  So often depression is depicted as this huge dramatic tragedy with horrible sad visuals.  I loved how well this nailed how very gray and inert and just full of the sense of endlessly trudging toward nothing it can be.  It's what hooked me about Laura as a character from the start.

Her overreaction to seeing a cute puppy in the flashback doesn't bother me.  Fetishizing some random thing as oh that would make so happy in the moment happens even when you intellectually know that had she gotten the puppy it likely wouldn't have changed anything beyond immediate gratification.  Frankly, Shadow doesn't seem like he ever really had much sense of who she actually was at all beyond the cute sad girl he thought he could rescue.  One of the few things I've really loved about this season has been the various gods and Sweeney too pointing out to her that as much as she may otherwise insist that she came back to make things up to Shadow, that would be a waste of her afterlife just as much as it was a waste of her life since she never really loved him and that there has to be something more to it than that.

[tennisgurl]

I really like that they ended with that great version of In The Pines, the song that they used in the amazing trailer for the first season. That song really sets a great song for the show, it really sets a mood, and was a nice call back. 

[Miles]

On 4/28/2019 at 11:00 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Honestly, I'm kind of relieved that the season is finally over because it was becoming almost a chore to watch. It was always beautiful but unfortunately, that wasn't enough for me. I'm hoping that they get their shit together next season with the new showrunner.

Wait, this bullshit was the season finale? I thought Gaiman said the second half of the season was "really strong"? That was the weakest shit I've seen in a long long time.

I can't even agree that it was beautifull. Sorry. This looked mostly really pedestrian. They tried to ape Fuller's style and failed miserably all throughout the season. Season one was beautiful and quirky and unique. This was just boring, both visually and narratively.

I'm so sad a show I loved so much, with all my heart, in season one, was twisted and mangled into this abomination.

Knowing that Gaiman was the main reason Fuller was ousted and that he thinks, that this garbadge was actually good, has me thinking, that he has lost all his talent some twenty odd years ago and is now just a big ball of ego, who can't handle if somebody does something better than him. Sad, really.

[meep.meep]

Yeah, I agree that the problem is Gaiman.  I don't think he has a sense of what you need in a visual medium.  In addition, I read the book years ago and can't remember what happens, so maybe it's not that great material to begin with. 

Spoiler

The bits that Fuller added - how the gods got to America - were the best part of the first season.

  This season it was McSweeney's back story.  Everything else is just endless chatter.

Edited May 2, 2019 by saoirse
Added spoiler tag to book reference

[ombre]

I'm continuing to rewatch the first season here and there, and I have to revise a couple of my opinions.

Knock this whole season down a grade to C/C-, but ep 7 still gets an A.

I'm also now second-thinking my appreciation for the stewing-in-their-own-juices (John-Brown's-crew-waiting-for-Harper's-Ferry) aspect.  One of the things that was remarkably effective in the first season were the tiny glimpses of normal humans running into the *nutters*.  The guy working the front desk at the motel.  The dude in the police station quietly being queer af (as much as you can while... at work.  In a police station.  In the Mid-West.) and then hearing noises down the hallway.  The waitress at Jack's Crocodile Bar.  *Audrey.*  And, for that matter, Salim getting to have more to *say* and think while being the sounding board for the more central characters.  Having these time-outs to step back and see our fringe characters from the Normal Person PoV kept the whole thing grounded.  They could have used some of that.  Mind you, the stewing could still have worked, but seeing real people reacting to it would have made it more meaningful.

On 4/30/2019 at 11:52 AM, nodorothyparker said:

Her overreaction to seeing a cute puppy in the flashback doesn't bother me.  Fetishizing some random thing as oh that would make so happy in the moment happens even when you intellectually know that had she gotten the puppy it likely wouldn't have changed anything beyond immediate gratification.  Frankly, Shadow doesn't seem like he ever really had much sense of who she actually was at all beyond the cute sad girl he thought he could rescue.  One of the few things I've really loved about this season has been the various gods and Sweeney too pointing out to her that as much as she may otherwise insist that she came back to make things up to Shadow, that would be a waste of her afterlife just as much as it was a waste of her life since she never really loved him and that there has to be something more to it than that.

Agreed on the second half of this.  With all my heart.  As to the puppy flashback, the part that really bugged me was that they rewrote the story.  It's like that gawd awful Simpsons ep where they redo how Homer and Marge met, and set in the 90s instead of the 70s.  Felt like gaslighting.

On 4/30/2019 at 11:58 AM, hnygrl said:

I hope they do more with Shadow than they are. Right now, he's just a simp...

I wonder how much of the problem comes from simply having to maintain the story for a *much* longer time period.  A book you read for, oh, idk, this one's thick,  probably 12-24 hours for most people.  Sure, you don't read it all in one sitting, but still, that's not *all* that long for anyone who reads with any regularity.  If it's a book that interests you, you probably gobble it up in a week, a month... either way, not very long, in comparison to a multi-season tv show.  And because of that compressed experience, you have a very different tool kit.  You don't need to flesh things out.  (Lookin' at you, Shadow's general life story.)  You can hide things in plain sight.  (Not gonna give examples here because, duh, spoilers!)  Etc.  And having a main character who spends most of the book feeling like he was hit by a truck doesn't feel as forced, since, well, the reader shares that feeling.  But with a week to ponder between eps and then a year(or years!) between seasons, you get the chance to chew on things more.  And when the main character hasn't been chewing on them, too, it feels like forced naivete at best.

Which gets at my overall feeling for this season - Shadow needed to grow more.  He may still be just a few days after getting out of jail, his wife's death, and falling in with this band of oddballs, but *we* aren't.  Hard to sustain shellshock over a space of years.  Hopefully he'll get to do that in the next season.  
 

On 4/30/2019 at 8:07 PM, Miles said:

Wait, this bullshit was the season finale? I thought Gaiman said the second half of the season was "really strong"? That was the weakest shit I've seen in a long long time.

I've taken that as if you've gotta sell sh*t, better make sure it's shiny!   And this may be sh*t, but tomorrow it might be gold!  

10 hours ago, meep.meep said:

Spoiler

 The bits that Fuller added - how the gods got to America - were the best part of the first season.  

To be fair, those were from the book.

[Sonny]

Well, this was disappointing. Especially after last week's episode a lot felt like filler. Even makes me write a comment, lol.

Random thoughts:
I really don't care about Mr. World and endless monologues. Just... stop... please?
Don't care about the new Technical boy. Just when the old one got interesting they retired him and gave us endless scenes of whatever.
Sweeney, dead on a table, was more interesting than ... I don't want to say "everything else", but it comes close.
Salim was fun.
The scene with Laura and Shadow on the tombs was nice, though vague, but I wondered why they didn't talk sooner. At the end of last season they met at Ostara's house and I thought they would get to talk, but this season had them immediately separated again. Blargh. Bad drama.
Random nudity.... so over it.

There is a lack of direction and progress in the story that really hurt this episode (and season) IMO. The episode dragged on and on, and then there was the forced sense of threat with some frantic action and quick cuts, and .... nothing much to come of it (at least that what it feels like for me). I guess it's supposed to be mysterious and mystical and whatever, but it doesn't work. Last episode was really good, and I think they should have either ended with that one, or if they really wanted to end with Shadow's revelation or whatever that shit was, they should have built more sense of progression into this episode and cut out the filler. As many others here have said before: Not enough story.

I rewatched the first season before I started with this one and while it sometimes seemed a bit random and meandering, it was at least still interesting and not too dragged out. It was nice to get into the different pace and enjoy the visuals and side stories. Now this season it soon became clear that it would benefit from watching more than only one episode each weak, and I tried pacing myself and waiting for more episodes to get aired before watching them. That helped, but there was still not much progress to the main storyline and everytime it seemed to finally pick up and go somewhere, and maybe give some answers, it stopped again and gave us unnecessary and artificial padding. That made the whole experience really frustrating.

To sum it up: blargh!!

[Notwisconsin]

I just wanted to mention something that no one here did. The breaking of the "fourth wall" and Mr. World talking directly to the audience. This is something that hadn't been done before. I wonder if now Mr. World is the narrator. 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Notwisconsin

[Nashville]

On 4/29/2019 at 4:49 AM, showme said:

Can someone confirm for me that Shadow Moon is Wednesday's illegitimate son? Is that the realization Shadow had when cutting at the tree?

For the sake of discussion, let’s assume Shadow is Wednesday’s son; I haven’t read the book and can't absolutely say so one way or the other, but that was definitely the impression I got.  🙂

Quote

If so, doesn't that make him half god? How come he has no supernatural abilities?

Oh, I don’t know about that; in my humble opinion, making the entire Southern Illinois contingents of the state troopers and the FBI disappear with the sweep of an arm definitely signifies a step beyond the pedestrian.  😉 

In any case, Shadow has (presumably) just now sorted out the mysteries of his parentage enough to figure out supernatural abilities might be an option.  In light of this new revelation, giving Shadow a little time to start testing his limits wouldn’t entirely be out of order at this point.

On 4/29/2019 at 7:32 PM, tennisgurl said:

New Media faking a financial attack (like War of the Worlds? Maybe?) and everything surrounding that was just confusing,

The New Gods’ attack was a practical exercise of power carefully crafted to engender a WotW-esque sense of panic and fear - but I don’t think the attack was fake.  

• TechBoy v2.0 definitively flatlined major parts of the nation’s technical infrastructure - disabling security protections of classified  government information storage facilities à la WikiLeaks, crashing the financial transaction processing system so that debit/credit cards no longer work, etc.
• Media v2.0 used the fruits of TechBoy’s labors to fan up nationwide (worldwide?) perception of a system under attack and in collapse, to foment widespread fear and panic - and, indirectly, worship.

 

On a side note:

One thing which has bothered me throughout the course of the series is the hierarchy of the New Gods - Mr. World as the High Father of the panetheon, with TechBoy and Media as his occasionally-insolent-but-always-fearful subordinates.  

My question is, WHY are they considered subordinate?  Theirs is no master/slave relationship, but is rather a network of interdependence; none of the three can exist without the cooperation of the other two.  Mr. World may be the manifestation of every single bit of known data on the planet - but without a way of transporting said data to users (TechBoy) or presenting it for their consumption (Media), Mr. World is 100% impotent.  Same with the other two; TechBoy’s intermediate transport mechanisms are useless without a source (World) or a destination (Media), while Media without content (World) or access to it (TechBoy) is a nonentity.  

Taken together, the three are an interdependent triumvirate - so why is World extolled above and beyond the other two?  Without them, World is as relevant as a pile of used disk drives sitting on a forgotten closet shelf.

[WatchrTina]

You know I really enjoy watching TV shows and then discussing them online.  Usually.  But I am frustrated to death by American Gods.  I watched this episode last night and then this morning tried to remember what happened.

I can't wrap my brain around it.

Tech Boy v2.0 (credit to Nashville for that moniker) and New Media join forces to bring the FBI down on Shadow and Salim and Wednesday and then Shadow crawls inside the world tree to escape them which . . . apparently alters the time continuum because suddenly the troops that had been assembled outside the the funeral parlor disappear and the media is announcing that the fugitives' whereabouts are unknown.  Also the tree is now gone from the funeral parlor's greenhouse.

WTF?

I want to like this show.  I love the book.  But plot matters and I cannot follow this plot. Like . . . after Wednesday drove off we see him sitting in a diner right?  And his face is being blasted on the news as part of a APB in that part of the country.  But no one recognizes him?  That's harder for me to  believe than Shadow crawling into a magical tree.

Edited May 4, 2019 by WatchrTina

[Nashville]

14 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Tech Boy v2.0 (credit to Nashville for that moniker) and New Media join forces to bring the FBI down on Shadow and Salim and Wednesday and then Shadow crawls inside the world tree to escape them which . . . apparently alters the time continuum because suddenly the troops that had been assembled outside the the funeral parlor disappear and the media is announcing that the fugitives' whereabouts are unknown.  Also the tree is now gone from the funeral parlor's greenhouse.

WTF?

You’ve actually hit upon what I consider to be two of the most significant points regarding Shadow’s powers.  The first, of course, is the whole altering-reality thingie - pretty much a biggie in and of itself. There was a subtler but potentially more significant subtext attached to that power, though, which may have escaped some: this newfound power of Shadow’s can extend to other Gods without them being aware of having been affected by it.  Shadow didn’t just wipe the troopers and Fibbies away from the front of the funeral home - he eradicated the reality in which his location was known, both by law enforcement and by the New Gods.  New Media’s subsequent broadcasts in which she had no clue of Shadow’s whereabouts were testament to this.

Quote

Like . . . after Wednesday drove off we see him sitting in a diner right?  And his face is being blasted on the news as part of a APB in that part of the country.  But no one recognizes him?  That's harder for me to  believe than Shadow crawling into a magical tree.

Well... just because WE saw Wednesday sitting in a diner, that doesn’t mean that’s who/what the diner staff saw.  I’d be fairly confident that anybody looking at Wednesday sees exactly the visage Wednesday wants them to see.

[qtpye]

On 4/29/2019 at 11:30 PM, rab01 said:

Well, yeah of course it's just playing around cutesy talk and what bugged me is that they didn't sound anything like the couple we met last season.

I got a chance to watch it again tonight and it was just sort of there, filler to finish the episode order.  On second viewing, there were a lot of boring shots of Shadow walking around the house and the chat between Technical Boy 2.0 and his creator/acolyte was surprisingly drab.

Also, I have to say the nudity this season feels gratuitous in a way it didn't last year.  I enjoy seeing Bilquis naked as much as the next guy but there wasn't any plot reason this time and it didn't have any of the visual or mythological interest that those scenes had last year.

On 4/30/2019 at 9:07 PM, Miles said:

Wait, this bullshit was the season finale? I thought Gaiman said the second half of the season was "really strong"? That was the weakest shit I've seen in a long long time.

I can't even agree that it was beautifull. Sorry. This looked mostly really pedestrian. They tried to ape Fuller's style and failed miserably all throughout the season. Season one was beautiful and quirky and unique. This was just boring, both visually and narratively.

I'm so sad a show I loved so much, with all my heart, in season one, was twisted and mangled into this abomination.

Knowing that Gaiman was the main reason Fuller was ousted and that he thinks, that this garbadge was actually good, has me thinking, that he has lost all his talent some twenty odd years ago and is now just a big ball of ego, who can't handle if somebody does something better than him. Sad, really.

In the first season we saw a lot more of B’s magical vagina but it never felt gratuitous or objectified. Here it was just screaming “ Hey, maybe if we distract you with sexy lady you might not realize how this episode  is so pointless.”

[Kite]

On 4/29/2019 at 4:53 AM, ombre said:

Is there anybody who didn't viscerally loathe his first iteration? 

I actually really enjoyed Tech Boy 1.0. Or at least the bratty visage with the hilariously bleeding-edge fashion. I didn't pay too much attention to the babble. 

I agree with the general sentiment here about this episode and this season. Sadly.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Why did Sweeney feel that his debt to Wednesday was paid?  Based on not consuming the funeral food offered to him? The potato salad wasn't prepared by Wednesday. Was adding mustard to it enough to change its provenance and create a new debt on the part of anyone who consumed it (i.e. Salim)?

Edited August 4, 2020 by ItCouldBeWorse

[Which Tyler]

On 4/29/2019 at 11:52 AM, ombre said:

Spoiler tagging for anyone who prefers ambiguity. Only addressing the first question:

  Hide contents

Yes, shadow's his son. 

 

Spoiler

Specifically, Baldr

The prettiest of them all