S08.E01: Winterfell

[Callaphera]

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

Exactly how would you do something like this warmly?  Just curious.

Have one of the dragons huff on Sam when Dany breaks the news that she barbecued part of his family? Dragon breath is probably pretty warm. Might smell like charred goat, though. 

[Happy Harpy]

8 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Tyrion: last time we saw each other was at Joffrey's wedding. A miserable affair.

Sansa: it had its moments.

Hah! 

[...]

The Hound: you left me to die

Arya: first I robbed you.

Hah, again! 

Those were among my favorite lines.

Arya and the Hound got each other, I think. She didn't cower and assume her past actions, he'd appreciate it. Maisie was excellent but Rory McCann did a great job, too, because on rewatch he had a very very faint smile when the Hound told Arya "that's why you survived";

[Nanrad]

Actually Sansa is acting like Cat and I say that as someone who likes Cat, just not certain parts of her, and this is definitely not one of the parts I like.

This has nothing to do with looking at Dany with puppy eyes, but rather, being antagonistic towards someone opposed to being the politically savvy person people claim she is.

Someone who is politically savvy knows when and when not to say what's on their mind, especially when they don't fully understand the person or the situation. They also frame their questions of doubts in better ways than Sansa did with Jon. There is no reason for Sansa to publicly ask how the dragons are going to be fed, that's a dumb move, or even bring up, "We have enough for our men." That could've been a private conversation even if Sansa has barely concealed tolerance. Sansa is coming off the way Dany is being accused of: entitled. 

I would've loved it if Sansa was a bit standoff-ish, but cordial and observant. I would've loved it if Sansa's took LF's way of taking in the environment around him by stealing looks at Dany, then saying to Jon, "She's not as confident as she puts on, you shouldn't have bent the knee so easily, but I understand why you felt you needed to."

Sansa comes off as petulant rather than someone who knows how to play the game (which there isn't time for regardless).

Even the way she asked Jon about his feelings for Dany comes off as someone naive to the game opposed to how savvy she's said to be. Sansa could've said, "A part of me feels as if you bent the knee to her for reasons other than the matter at hand. You've always been far too serious to fall for a pretty face, but perhaps, it's a matter of the heart."

I also side with Dany about the respect thing. Dany isn't saying Sansa has to like her, but would it kill her to not be antagonistic? 

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, taurusrose said:

Sansa should have her throat cut because she’s not as smart as she thinks she is, I don’t care how many times the show tells me she is. It hasn’t been proven once by anything she’s done on screen. Secondly, she’s got the same tunnel vision that her mother (another one who thought she was so smart and righteous) had and you see what kind of shit storm she started. 

She was right about Ramsey, she's going to be proven right with Tyrion, not so much a betrayer, but being played by Cersei.

Her vision is no more narrow then Jon's, the threat is coming from BOTH ends, once again they will both be right,

Which takes precedent when one's a hammer and the other the anvil ?

[TwistedandBored]

I don't know why but I felt like Daenerys was unsure of herself during this episode. Like she didn't know what to do with all the hostile stares she was getting so she reverted back to her queenly status. 

I think her dragons flying over help her feel a little confident and comfortable since they are her children but then she felt unsure of herself when meeting The Starks again. She didn't even talk during the Northerners discussion letting Jon and Tyrion take the lead. 

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, stagmania said:

and complaining about having to feed Dany’s army in front of the whole assembly is definitely not respectful.

Well from this I get the feeling Jon did not communicate that, and Danny point blank screwed up the burning of the food, so how did they eat on their 3 week or more march up north ? 

Pillage the farmers?

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

What Sansa gave Danaerys in the courtyard was Winterfell. I saw nothing to fault her behavior for there. 

She could be faulted for being rude in the council meeting, though it's a subject everyone will want to know the answer to, so someone had to ask the question eventually. Basically, I think the way the showrunners are hyping Dany and Sansa's antipathy, to the extent of inventing nonexistent insults in courtyards to make it sound all catfighty, convinces me it's a red herring that will come to nothing.

This is playing out just like F & B, Good Queen Alysanne.

It's just a matter if it's before or after TAOTD.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Diana Berry said:

They can't work together in their contract?  What's that about do tell.

They dated IRL, was really rocky.

[spaceghostess]

45 minutes ago, mac123x said:

I thought it was more like curiosity.  "So Raegal and I are the last dragons alive and we've been talking about this whole reproduction thing - can we watch and get some pointers?"

It reminded me of feeling weird about having sex when your dog's in the room. But these are Dany's "children", so I really hope she and Jon found a nice, secluded spot, otherwise eeew.

[magdalene]

Bran gives me the willies.

Dear Jaime, surprise! your biggest sin has come back to haunt you and is giving you his creepy stare.

Poor Sam, finding out that Dany had his family killed and having to show respect to their killer.

Dany has been feeling entitled to be the "chosen one" for so long - I don't see it going well when she finds out about Jon's true parentage and his claim to the throne.

[Snowball II]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Anyone else feel that Drogon was feeling territorial and overprotective of Dany in the waterfall scene?

Yeah, I don't think he likes Mom's new boyfriend, very much.

Quote

Bran gives me the willies. 

Bran is the real life embodiment of that "Jeff Goldblum is watching you poop" meme.

Edited April 15, 2019 by Fiver

[Minneapple]

25 minutes ago, TwistedandBored said:

I don't know why but I felt like Daenerys was unsure of herself during this episode. Like she didn't know what to do with all the hostile stares she was getting so she reverted back to her queenly status. 

I think her dragons flying over help her feel a little confident and comfortable since they are her children but then she felt unsure of herself when meeting The Starks again. She didn't even talk during the Northerners discussion letting Jon and Tyrion take the lead. 

Yeah, that's true. Normally Dany is very assertive and blabby about how she's going to rule and whatnot, but she was reticent this time, perhaps thrown by everyone hating her.

I love how Bran just waited there all night for his "old friend." And I love the look on Jaime's face when he saw Bran. Brilliant.

Also didn't mention John Bradley's work in my first post. Wonderful acting by him in the scene when Dany tells Sam about his dad and brother. And nice throwback to the pilot with him and Jon in the crypts, just like Ned and Robert in the crypts talking about -- tada! -- Lyanna and Rhaegar.

I love how Sansa is always giving people the side-eye and doling out one-liners on the balconies of Winterfell.

[Lemuria]

48 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

She wants Sansa's respect act, less smirky and act more like a Queen, and less entitled.

Until then she's not Sansa's queen.

As opposed to what, Sansa's side-eye looks and barely concealed dislike and disrespect?  

And "entitled" appears to the be "attack Dany word of choice" among some fans.  To me, there speaks children of the late 20th century and the 21st century.  Most of whom have never lived under the reign of an absolute monarch, who not only thought they were entitled, they actually were.  The "Divine Right of Kings [and Queens]" and all that.  If they rode your child down while they were out hawking, well, wasn't that just too bad for you?

When Sansa swooped down on the Northern lords and expected them to fall at her Stark feet, she was demonstrating entitlement (and chutzpah).  When she betrayed her brother (both brothers, actually.  It's clear she never intended to get Rickon back) and all the troops that had come to help get Winterfell back, holding back that another larger army was coming to help because (according to ST) she wanted to swoop in an be The Hero of the day and end up ruler of Winterfell, she was demonstrating entitlement (and that she had not understood the anger against betrayal by the Starks that the bannermen were feeling; so much for "smart").

That sense of entitlement comes with rank, prestige, power, position, and Sansa has more than her fair share of it.

I have to admit to being disappointed in all of the Arya scenes.  She just came off oddly to me.

[GrailKing]

2 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

Or she implied "I'll stop being patient, stop play nice, and put her in her place" or "I'll remind her that Winterfell is mine and she rules it by my grace". As I said, Dany didn't directly. use her authority as a Queen. She didn't ask, for example that Sansa bend publicly the knee to her.

Winterfell, the north, the south, NONE of it is hers just because she says so; period !

She has to prove herself and so far her bad PR is screwing her,  as I said Sansa has history on her side. Maybe next week will move in a positive direction, both women have much in common, but Danny didn't learn from Darrio I'm afraid.

[Lemuria]

4 minutes ago, Fiver said:

I don't think he likes Mom's new boyfriend, very much.

I thought he kind of had a smile 😊 (Drogon seemed to like Jon last year)

[anamika]

Yeah, I don't understand why Dany is getting singled out for entitlement and having to earn 'respect' and all that.

I thought all three of them - Sansa, Jon, Dany - looked entitled sitting there and giving orders. Poor Ned Umber looked scared talking to Sansa.

36 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Sansa comes off as petulant rather than someone who knows how to play the game (which there isn't time for regardless).

I think that's mostly the way Sophie plays the character. Like in the scene where she is giving orders to Ned Umber - she looks bored and disinterested and like she would be elsewhere than in that  hall. And she has this whiny, petulance in her voice when she speaks - it makes it feel like she is always annoyed.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Nanrad said:

Am I going to be the first to say it? I believe that Sansa was being standoff-ish and cold partly because she wants to rule Winterfell, but most importantly, she's jealous of Dany. I don't know if she has a crush on Jon or is in love with him (and doesn't realize it), but she was acting incredibly territorial about the entire situation.

Sansa does rule Winterfell, she's TLOWF, Jon now runs the North now that he's back, he's the warden.

WRG to Jonsa ; keep it low, free folkers may descend on you with no mercy. LOL

[TobinAlbers]

This says it all 😂

[tennisgurl]

I hope that throughout the season, Bran is just always there to create super awkward moments no matter the context.

Sam: "Hey Bran, I found some new books for you!"

Bran: "When the queen was burning your father and brother alive, they smelled like barbecue."

Sam: "...so I should just leave these here..."

Edited April 15, 2019 by tennisgurl

[quarks]

On a non-Sansa/Dany topic -

So, am I misinterpreting things, or did this episode (and the "About the Episode" bit from the producers) confirm that the Night King on the show is ALSO a Targaryen?

1) The producers said that only Targaryens can ride dragons - Jon can ride Rhaegal because he's a Targaryen.

2) The Night King can ride a dragon.

3) This is more of a stretch, but the spiral "artwork" the Night King seems to enjoy making with various body parts is kinda shaped like the spiral 3 heads of the dragon Targaryen banner.

If so, is this a show invention? I can't remember any similar indications in the books, although of course the Night King hasn't really appeared in the books and he doesn't have a dragon - yet. I can only hope that the book characters prove more intelligent than their TV versions and don't let the Army of the Dead get one.

[MadMouse]

I really don't know what to think of the episode.

Sansa and the Northerners seemed especially stupid. The AOTD is coming but let's bitch about Jon's crown and throw shade at the lady who came to help.

Sam tells Olly to get over it when his family who he actually loved is killed. But I guess those rules don't apply to himself. And man did he tell Jon about his parents in such a shitty way. It wasn't even about him just screwing Dany over.

Dragonlord Jon was great fanservice but the setup to it was terrible. Oh and they're totally living out their lives near that waterfall. People are going to think they're dead but nope.

Edited April 15, 2019 by MadMouse
Grammar!!!!

[Bill1978]

14 minutes ago, quarks said:

2) The Night King can ride a dragon

I assume the Night King can ride his dragon cause he controls that dragon since he bought it back to life. 

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Poor Ned Umber looked scared talking to Sansa.

I just rewatched that scene, as young as he was he was confident and stood straight, he told Sansa what he needed, she replied with out any harshness, telling him he'll get what they can give.

The only time he wavered was addressing Jon and Danny, I think it was echoing the other northern lords angst.

[Callaphera]

16 minutes ago, quarks said:

On a non-Sansa/Dany topic -

So, am I misinterpreting things, or did this episode (and the "About the Episode" bit from the producers) confirm that the Night King on the show is ALSO a Targaryen?

I just assume everyone is at this point. 

[GrailKing]

Just re watching Tyrion speak, Sansa starts a small smile, but it quickly fades to concern about Lannister army.

[TheGourmez]

4 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

The dragons being all "ew" to seeing Jon/Dany sexytime was funny.

Am I the only person who thought the dragons were perving on Jon/Dany? 😂

3 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

That’s because Davos is awesome. Yes why was no one else suggesting a marriage pact?

I took every conversation between Dany and Jon since they lost a dragon to essentially be them laying things on the table for a marriage between themselves - Dany emphasizing that the dragons were her children and she couldn't have others, so Jon knew this wouldn't involve heirs, Jon bringing up to Dany that maybe she was wrong about that whole child thing, then boat sex was just sealing the deal.

3 hours ago, GraceK said:

Exactly. And what Sam fails to mention is poor Olly. Olly saw his parents murdered, and then were told they were EATEN by a thenn. Yet when he confronted Sam about Jon letting the wildlings in, Sam said that Jon is thinking about the greater good of Westeros because of the WWs. Olly Murders him anyway and Jon kills him in revenge and no one blinks. Even though he is a child.

Jon as lord commander has to ask the north for men. He doesn’t want to ask Lord Bolton, because Roose personally stabbed Robb Stark in the heart and betrayed his family, but SAM tells him that you can’t let personal feelings get in the way and the NW needs men to defend against the AOTD. Jon listens!!!

so now, for the first time, Sam is faced with the emotional issues Jon and Olly, and Aemon have dealt with, and who Sam has given such advice too , and instead of listening to himself, he does the most selfish thing possible and acts petty as shit right before the biggest war of the worlds.  He has actually read a letter about Dany to Aemon, he knows what kind of person she is and who his father is. He is acting on pure anger and revenge, to his best friend, and it is hypocritical as shit.

Totally agree. And I also like how you bring up Jon executing his murderers here - I don't understand why Dany executing the Tarlys is viewed differently. The conspirators were obviously taken as prisoner - Jon didn't have to kill them, but it's what was just to him, including killing a child. Dany offered the Tarlys a choice, and they made their choice. Yeah, she could have kept them as prisoners, but as far as she's concerned, they betrayed her, committed treason, and deserved to die. What's the difference I'm not seeing? I also didn't see Sam's timing about telling him about his heritage as a petty thing at all, so maybe I just don't see things. I was surprised by how well Jon took it, actually.

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

Also... where the fuck was Ghost!??!!!??’

SERIOUSLY.

Also, I think the Northerners come across much more selfish and obnoxious on the whole than they do in the books. It's one of my larger complaints about the differences - if we'd gotten a true Northern conspiracy storyline, maybe I'd feel differently. But we didn't, so...eh. I just don't care about those assholes on the whole.

Other hottakes? I thought Dany's look when the dragons flew overhead was pride in her kids, not arrogance, and I was surprised by how little she spoke during the scene with the Northern Lords. I think she's trying not to step on toes and make this work. P.S., I like Sansa too.

I feel like Jon and Bran were the only ones speaking truth this episode. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS BUT THE DEAD, PEOPLE.

Edited April 15, 2019 by TheGourmez

[ulkis]

Watching Jon sit between Dany and Sansa snapping at each other cracked me up because it made me think of many debates of whether the better pairing is with his first cousin or his aunt, heh.

Edited April 15, 2019 by ulkis

[Colorful Mess]

What was so shocking to me about this episode is that the Tarly reveal upset Sam enough to run to Jon but Sam doesn't even know about the method of execution yet.....Dany didn't tell him.

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, TheGourmez said:

And I also like how you bring up Jon executing his murderers here - I don't understand why Dany executing the Tarly's is viewed differently. The conspirators were obviously taken as prisoner - Jon didn't have to kill them, but it's what was just to him, including killing a child. Dany offered the Tarlys a choice, and they made their choice. Yeah, she could have kept them as prisoners, but as far as she's concerned, they betrayed her, committed treason, and deserved to die. What's the difference I'm not seeing? I also didn't see Sam's timing about telling him about his heritage as a petty thing at all, so maybe I just don't see things. I was surprised by how well Jon took it, actually.

I had no problem with Randyl, he was grown , he point blank stated he wouldn't follow Danny, but she did have more and better options for Dickon, hence why I'm still on the fence with her.

WRG to Jon I'm in agreement with him, his men actually knifed him many times, I felt bad for Olly, but options are very few when you kill your LC, and I'm sure Jon felt conflicted with the lad.

[spaceghostess]

Still processing, but a few thoughts:

1. I think someone mentioned this already, but ITA agree that Maisie did a wonderful job w/the emotions playing over Arya's face as Jon, Gendry, and the Hound rode into Winterfell.

2. Loved the Arya/Jon reunion, but yeah, WTF with her "Sansa's the smartest" comment? I was all, "Have you forgotten that one time you were Tywin Lannister's cup bearer?"  I'm not a Sansa-hater by any means; I just haven't seen as much of this supposed brilliance as the show seems to think it's shown me.  Writers having characters make bullshit pronouncements about other characters so we'll know how great they are is a pet peeve. Please do not condescend to me with this type of ham-fisted shortcut. If you want me to think Sansa's a brilliant whatever, please show me her being that.

3. Dragon ride: I actually really liked the whole thing and didn't find it too green-screeny. It was fun and pretty cool to see that dragon riding isn't as easy as it looks. Also, leave it to Daenerys to ratchet up foreplay to a whole new level.

4. Sam. Poor Sam. That was the definition of someone's face crumbling in grief; so well acted by JB. 

5. Yes, Bran is still creepy/weird with his thousand-yard stare and I am there for his unintentionally(?) shooting sick burns all over the place, i.e. when Sam tried to get him to tell Jon because "He's your brother," and Bran was like, "Nope, 'bye."

6. Sigh. Jon, my iron woobie. The Brood-o-Meter was at an all-time low as he was reunited with his favorite sister and his BFF. And he got to ride a dragon! And bone his GF near a pretty waterfall!  But then he was served the shit sandwich of all shit sandwiches. Kit acted this really well, I thought. You could see it behind his eyes--"No, no, no, no. Just NO. I hate Mondays." And I think he did make the aunt/nephew connection, he just wasn't ready to deal with it AT ALL. Talk about a bad day at the office.

7. Poor little Ned Umber was a great jump scare.

8. Jaime and Bran, heeeee.

Jaime = "Escaped King's Landing, check. Made it here in one piece, check. Got through the gates of Winterfell without anyone recognizing me, ch--oh, shit."

In other news, Linus van Pelt is all about the dragons:

Edited April 15, 2019 by spaceghostess

[GraceK]

On rewatch I noticed that Rhaegal immediately went towards Jon as he approached. Drogon moves towards Dany and Rhaegal bent towards Jon... it was almost instinctual...that’s why I feel Dany had the idea to tell him to ride him. She went with her instinct.

[GrailKing]

Just realizing how much color is in tonight's show, and those dragons fly like jets.

[Friendly kitty]

53 minutes ago, Bill1978 said:

I assume the Night King can ride his dragon cause he controls that dragon since he bought it back to life.

And then the King Night on the ice dragon will face a battle with Deineris on her dragon. And it will be a decisive battle, because, it seems to me, if the King Night is killed, his army will immediately disappear.

1 hour ago, Lemuria said:

I thought he kind of had a smile 😊 (Drogon seemed to like Jon last year)

Even if Drogon liked John, he does not want to watch his mother kiss the incomprehensible man. Daenerys should only be his mom! Point!😋

Edited April 15, 2019 by Friendly kitty

[GrailKing]

After the talk about glover and Danny, Sansa managed to get Jon to crack a smile, when Jon said Danny's not their father and Sansa quipped no, she's prettier.

Hre asking Jon if it was for the north or love, definitely didn't look antagonistic, but seemed to cut him still.

I think he has to ask himself that question.

[GraceK]

3 minutes ago, Friendly kitty said:

And then the King Night on the ice dragon will face a battle with Deineris on her dragon. And it will be a decisive battle, because, it seems to me, if the King Night is killed, his army will immediately disappear.

Even if Drogon liked John, he does not want to watch his mother kiss the incomprehensible man. Daenerys should only be his mom! Point!😋

Drogon seemed pissed and territorial to me 😂 like hurt my mother and I will fry  you !

[GrailKing]

Some how missed the Arya bow scene.

And Umber call back from the girl staked to the tree made me jump a second time, maybe I'll have to skip it in later watching. 

[MadMouse]

9 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Because she is useless?? 🙄😂 ok not really, but every criticism lobbied at Sansa , no matter how justified , is met with just vitriol and denial, and usually a rant about how Dany SUCKS, that we tend to get irritated.

I actually like Sansa. Or used to anyway. But in this off season, her fans and stans have made her UNBEARABLE. Seriously. Not to mention the Jonsa fan base, that finds every opportunity to pick on and insult Daenerys and her fans. 🤦🏻‍♀️🙄 This mad queen, dark Dany, political Jon theories are so toxic and fly in the face of two beloved characters just to prop up Sansa Stark is infuriating. It’s made me hate her. Not to mention all the dumb ass interviews  Sophie Turner Keeps giving where she hypes up her character as a devious, evil mastermind every season who hates her family.  Then every season we see her “ plotting “ or being “ shady” with no actual payoff.  Then this season she’s legitimately being a bitch to a very nice woman who showed up to help for no reason. Because why? Because she wants to be Queen and is jealous of a more beautiful and powerful woman being in her space. She has literally become a more watered down Cersei, and I don’t understand why we are supposed to cheer for her and love her???? Seriously. Cersei is EVIL and I have seen her get more love and sympathy then Dany  gets .

This times a thousand. Dany had zero reason to go WF to save Sansa or the xenophobic people she rules. It's not like the North has any value. And Sansa acts like it's Cersei coming to visit. Which is funny since Sansa is acting exactly like the woman she hates.

Who gives a shit if Jon bent the knee for love, Sansa doesn't know Dany is "barren". She should be suggesting a marriage between them. Her brother becomes consort and her future nephew or niece rules the seven kingdoms.

Funniest part will be once she finds out about Jon, she's going to look like a huge hypocrite. Pushing his "claim" to rule.

[GraceK]

6 minutes ago, MadMouse said:

This times a thousand. Dany had zero reason to go WF to save Sansa or the xenophobic people she rules. It's not like the North has any value. And Sansa acts like it's Cersei coming to visit. Which is funny since Sansa is acting exactly like the woman she hates.

Who gives a shit if Jon bent the knee for love, Sansa doesn't know Dany is "barren". She should be suggesting a marriage between them. Her brother becomes consort and her future nephew or niece rules the seven kingdoms.

Funniest part will be once she finds out about Jon, she's going to look like a huge hypocrite. Pushing his "claim" to rule.

And if she’s really as smart as everyone says she is, Jon marrying Dany keeps him in the south  and makes her Queen of  Winterfell  !!! It’s a win win. Dany  won’t deny her that if both Jon and Sansa ask. She’s reasonable. All she would want is Sansas fealty and loyalty, and BAM! Sansa is Queen in the North. Why not? 

[Nanrad]

I don't think Sansa is useless or was intended to be useless, I think she is a poorly utilized/realized character. Now, of course, many disagree with that, but others mentioned, it's a lot of telling and not showing and that's a huge problem. Sansa is supposed to be cunning and politically savvy, but her interactions with Dany prove otherwise. 

At this point in the game, which only she, Cersei, and Lord Glover are playing, she should know better than that. I feel like if Margaery were in her place, she would be the person Sansa fans claim Sansa is.

Okay, so she ran Winterfell while Jon was gone, it is in the best interest of her people that she either plays nice with Dany or be cordial due to AOTD. Also, sooner or later, HER Queen, regardless if she accepts her as such, will get tired of her insolence and do something about her behavior. Sansa wants Dany to show her respect, how about she show Dany some respect because Jon already bent the knee--it's done. The power has been transferred. And, again, for someone who is so good at the game and learned it from Cersei, how many royals has she interacted with to know that their kindness can flip into cruelty in a matter of a second. SO, either she is being an idiot OR she's taking advantage of the relationship (???) Dany and Jon have. Her defiance to royalty doesn't make any sense. It's best if she faked nice and kept her head down.

I enjoy the potential of Sansa, but I hate it when her stans excuse everything, but find fault in what every other character does, but never her.

Like what payoff have we gotten in Sansa not trusting Jon during the Battle of the Bastards? What was the point in that? Yet, people swore she was justified although many men got killed because Sansa didn't trust Jon, the commander of the army for a war she insisted he wage, with info that she had another army on the way.

People mention Sansa warning Jon about Ramsey, her interactions with Cersei, and her relationship with LF as to why she's so smart, but let's keep in mind that she had a sinister and abusive relationship with all of them (maybe not LF for the abuse part, idk???). Remember she warned Jon that he didn't know what Ramsey was capable of? That wasn't being smart, that was speaking from experience which is a completely different thing. The same goes with Cersei--Sansa was around Cersei long enough to know how demented that woman is as well as sadistic. She watched as LF schemed and tried to mack on her after claiming he was in love with her mother.

With all of this being said, that is why I'm not pro Sansa in her stand off with Dany: her behavior is the antithesis of a politically savvy person. And let the record state: I'm not a Dany Stan, but I do find Sansa's reaction to Dany quite poor (in regards to who she is said to be).

Politically savvy people also don't question or undermine their rulers in front of other leaders unless they are showing fake concern as they put doubts in other peoples heads. Sansa did not do that. She's being defiant. I can't speak for Ramsey, but even Cersei and LF faked nice to more powerful people for over a decade as they schemed to get where they are. But, Sansa can't do it with someone who commands literal dragons??? People are speculating that Dany could go mad, which if true, wouldn't Sansa be top on that list well? How is that smart?

[Nanrad]

1 minute ago, GraceK said:

And if she’s really as smart as everyone says she is, Jon marrying Dany keeps him in the south  and makes her Queen of  Winterfell  !!! It’s a win win. Dany  won’t deny her that if both Jon and Sansa ask. She’s reasonable. All she would want is Sansas fealty and loyalty, and BAM! Sansa is Queen in the North. Why not? 

Wouldn't she just be a Lady/Commander unless Dany doesn't unite the kingdoms or keep them united?

[WindyNights]

4 hours ago, GraceK said:

This just proves to me that in the end, it’s gonna be Jon and Dany against the world. Sansa is gonna keep on being Sansa, pulling some shady shit, and I have no doubt she will betray Jon in some way , or try to hurt Daenerys.  And in doing so , Jon will just embrace his The Targaryen in him. And I am here for it. He has made it clear he has never been a Stark. He never felt like one. And now his Stark siblings are treating the love of his life like shit, he finds out he’s royal, the woman he loves accepts and adores him....and his Stark family turns on him, and his “father “ lied to him his whole life? I am ready for him to go full Targaryen ! Good. He’s already ridden a dragon. I can’t wait for the look on Sansas face when she finds out her Bastard brother is actual royalty and her father actually loved him more.

I don't think there's any proof that Ned loves Jon more than Sansa.

But regardless, I think we're headed toward a Sansa victory and Daenerys being undermined.

This episode threw some red flags out for House Targaryen

Edited April 15, 2019 by WindyNights

[merrick715]

1 minute ago, Nanrad said:

Wouldn't she just be a Lady/Commander unless Dany doesn't unite the kingdoms or keep them united?

She would be the Warden of the North, and Lady of Winterfell if Dany took Jon south when she becomes Queen of the seven kingdoms. Didn't Dany name Yara Queen of the Iron Islands? Does that mean Dany is going to become Queen of six Kingdoms, instead of seven?

[Andromeda]

1 hour ago, MadMouse said:

I really don't know what to think of the episode.

Sansa and the Northerners seemed especially stupid. The AOTD is coming but let's bitch about Jon's crown and throw shade at the lady who came to help.

Sam tells Olly to get over it when his family who he actually loved is killed. But I guess those rules don't apply to himself. And man did he tell Jon about his parents in such a shitty way. It wasn't even about him just screwing Dany over.

"The North Remembers..." for all of, what, five years or so? Because until Rob rebelled against Joffrey, there was no King in the North. As Dany told Jon in S7, for centuries they lived in peace with a Targaryean on the throne and a Stark as Warden of the North. So Jon, NOT making Robb's critical mistake, takes it back to the way it was the day Robert rolled through with his entourage, and now it's just not good enough? Isn't it Jon's right as King to decide how to rule his people? In this case, having the power of the Big Throne there to help them. In what universe is that a bad thing?

I also had an issue with Sam. I understand he's sad and shocked, but Dany did not "murder" his family. War is war. Executing them was the choice they made. I know it's a stark choice (hah), but is it really any different than the "choice" Jon gave the Karstarks and the rebels who killed him? Especially Olly, who was manipulated by an old man after being traumatized seeing his family killed. No cell for him to cool his heels — Jon strung up the young teen.

Jumping back to S1, E1, we saw Ned behead a deserter from the Night's Watch — did that young family man get a chance? Nope. And why did he run? He saw the White Walkers north of the wall. Irony, that.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Callaphera said:

Have one of the dragons huff on Sam when Dany breaks the news that she barbecued part of his family....

All of which could have been avoided if those assholes at the Citadel told Sam the truth.....

[mrspidey]

5 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

While this did feel rather lackadaisical and like a lot of filler when we're getting such a shortened final season

If we're going by the combined running time of all six episodes, this season is gonna be about as long as a 10-episode seasons.

[Colorful Mess]

Sam to Jon: "You've also spared men. Thousands of wildlings when they refused to kneel." 

The show is illustrating that execution-to-execution is not the accurate comparison, it is prisoner-of-war-to-prisoner-of-war and what to do with people who don't want to kneel to you. Jon showed mercy to prisoners who lost on the battlefield. The wildlings lost, but Jon didnt force them to kneel to him. 

And like I said earlier, neither Sam nor Jon know that they were burned alive. They're going to drag this out for another emotional reaction. 

[whateverdgaf]

I think my issue with Sansa's characterisation is that I'm having trouble reconciling her being a political savant/ 'smartest person I know' with her putting a woman with a giant army and two dragons on her defensive. 

Either Daenerys is Sansa's ally, in which case she should endeavour to keep good relations and set an example for the fickle, xenophobic Northern Lords, or Daenerys is a potential enemy/threat, in which case marking herself out as a opponent to Dany isn't a smart move. Whereas offering the olive branch could lower Dany's defences and give Sansa a upper hand.

As a rule of thumb, making the woman with two dragons and an army dislike you is a bad idea. 

[GraceK]

6 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

"The North Remembers..." for all of, what, five years or so? Because until Rob rebelled against Joffrey, there was no King in the North. As Dany told Jon in S7, for centuries they lived in peace with a Targaryean on the throne and a Stark as Warden of the North. So Jon, NOT making Robb's critical mistake, takes it back to the way it was the day Robert rolled through with his entourage, and now it's just not good enough? Isn't it Jon's right as King to decide how to rule his people? In this case, having the power of the Big Throne there to help them. In what universe is that a bad thing?

I also had an issue with Sam. I understand he's sad and shocked, but Dany did not "murder" his family. War is war. Executing them was the choice they made. I know it's a stark choice (hah), but is it really any different than the "choice" Jon gave the Karstarks and the rebels who killed him? Especially Olly, who was manipulated by an old man after being traumatized seeing his family killed. No cell for him to cool his heels — Jon strung up the young teen.

Jumping back to S1, E1, we saw Ned behead a deserter from the Night's Watch — did that young family man get a chance? Nope. And why did he run? He saw the White Walkers north of the wall. Irony, that.

Starks can do no wrong. Don’t you get it? No matter what they do, whether it’s hanging children , feeding men to dogs, baking men into pies, killing off families, beheading teenage deserters... it’s justified. It’s ONLY Daenerys who is evil, and mean, and ruthless.  I mean, she has boobies for god sakes!!! How dare she act like a man would? 😂 and she has dragons!!! And armies!!! Who does she think she is???? Stannis??? A MAN!!!    No way!!’ She’s definitely evil!!

[MadMouse]

8 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

"The North Remembers..." for all of, what, five years or so? Because until Rob rebelled against Joffrey, there was no King in the North. As Dany told Jon in S7, for centuries they lived in peace with a Targaryean on the throne and a Stark as Warden of the North. So Jon, NOT making Robb's critical mistake, takes it back to the way it was the day Robert rolled through with his entourage, and now it's just not good enough? Isn't it Jon's right as King to decide how to rule his people? In this case, having the power of the Big Throne there to help them. In what universe is that a bad thing?

I also had an issue with Sam. I understand he's sad and shocked, but Dany did not "murder" his family. War is war. Executing them was the choice they made. I know it's a stark choice (hah), but is it really any different than the "choice" Jon gave the Karstarks and the rebels who killed him? Especially Olly, who was manipulated by an old man after being traumatized seeing his family killed. No cell for him to cool his heels — Jon strung up the young teen.

Jumping back to S1, E1, we saw Ned behead a deserter from the Night's Watch — did that young family man get a chance? Nope. And why did he run? He saw the White Walkers north of the wall. Irony, that.

Completely agree.

I wonder what would happen if a Frey came North demanding justice. They basically did the exact thing the Tarlys did. But the deaths of Freys were justified because Arya did it? Dany gave both Tarlys multiple choices to live, it's hard to feel bad for people who chose death.

[Andromeda]

4 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

I think my issue with Sansa's characterisation is that I'm having trouble reconciling her being a political savant/ 'smartest person I know' with her putting a woman with a giant army and two dragons on her defensive. 

Either Daenerys is Sansa's ally, in which case she should endeavour to keep good relations and set an example for the fickle, xenophobic Northern Lords, or Daenerys is a potential enemy/threat, in which case marking herself out as a opponent to Dany isn't a smart move. Whereas offering the olive branch could lower Dany's defences and give Sansa a upper hand.

As a rule of thumb, making the woman with two dragons and an army dislike you is a bad idea. 

Sansa isn't acting politically or diplomatically smart at all. Or even as a court-savvy lady. Usually that involves saying the thing the other person wants to hear, while promising nothing, but at least on the surface showing congeniality. Yeah, it's fake, but that's how court-savvy politicians roll to get what they want. It was called being "agreeable" back in the day. A lady should appear agreeable even if behind closed doors she rips you a new one.

Oddly, the best person at this was Littlefinger, who convinced numerous people he was on their side. I thought Sansa said she learned a lot from that particular fellow.

4 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Starks can do no wrong. Don’t you get it? No matter what they do, whether it’s hanging children , feeding men to dogs, baking men into pies, killing off families, beheading teenage deserters... it’s justified. It’s ONLY Daenerys who is evil, and mean, and ruthless.  I mean, she has boobies for god sakes!!! How dare she act like a man would? 😂 and she has dragons!!! And armies!!! Who does she think she is???? Stannis??? A MAN!!!    No way!!’ She’s definitely evil!!

OMG, so true. Because she has boobs, it's a big deal that she executed enemy combatants? I guess she's supposed to be all womanly and sympathetic toward them. 

I find Dany's story fascinating. She's accomplished so much for such a young woman. If she ends up going mad or turning evil, I will be so disappointed. We already have a Mad/Evil Queen in Cersie; we sure don't need another.