S08.E01: Winterfell

[darkestboy]

Love the new opening credits and overall, the episode was pretty good.

I am genuinely surprised we didn't get any major deaths but glad certain things were resolved quicker than expected such as Theon rescuing Yara and Sam telling Jon the real truth about him and Daenerys.

Dany's arrival in Winterfell really has set the cat among the pigeons though. Sansa and Arya clearly don't trust, Samwell might be tempted to avenge his family and now any relationship with her and Jon is also potentially nixed due to them being related and the latter knowing his heritage.

Cersei and Euron has to be one of the worst unions we've had on the show and I'm really hoping his cockiness soon gets too much for the former and she swiftly kills him but right now, he's too useful for her to be done away with, much as I loathe the character.

Jaime and Bran's last scene was brilliant. I can't wait to see what happens there next week. Tyrion and Varys had some interesting scenes and I did like the dragon scenes with Jon and Dany this week as well.

We've had stronger opening episodes but this was a great way to start things off for the final season, 8/10

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, LadyChaos said:

A Liberator does not always make a good ruler, because they tend to focus solely on freedom and not at what needs to be done afterward.

I think Maureen shows a good deal about what kind of ruler she would be, a bad one.

I agree, that a Liberator is not necessarily a good ruler, but a liberator has better motives than a conqueror.  That said, I think she ruled well in Meereen, despite making some mistakes.  She was dealing with an incredibly difficult situation, trying to create an entirely new economy and racially different culture, after generations of slavery.   

She could have taken the Armada offered by the Masters and sailed to Westeros to conquer and claim the Iron Throne.  But, she chose to stay and rule and keep the cities of  Slavers' Bay, The Bay of Dragons free.   

I think her experiences in life, particularly being betrayed by the witch who she spared and losing her husband and son, have given her something of a rough edge.  But, she  has surrounded herself with more moderate minded advisers, like Tyrion, Missandei, Jorah and Varys, and usually listens to them, sometimes to her own detriment. 

[TaraS1]

I'm clearly in the minority, but I love Dany.  She's always been my favorite, even when she's making mistakes.  I appreciate her flaws as well as her badassery.

And even though I know Uncle Benjen got eaten by white walkers last season, I still thought the hooded figure might be him.  You never know with this show.

[Wendy]

8 hours ago, nilyank said:

So some criticize Sansa for giving Dany the side-eye but Lady Lyanna basically calls Jon out for being Dany's boytoy and giving up the crown in front of all the lords, but that's not a problem.

It is only a problem when it is Sansa. 

Lady Mormont was more nasty than Sansa ever was and nobody blinked an eye. Lady Mormont had a point though, now that Jon is not KITN, what is he? Warden, back to bastard? what is his status? 

Arya basically told Jon that he needed to remember that they were also his family, again no big deal. Sansa mentioned realistic and practical things like how to feed the armies and the dragons and suddenly she is an ungrateful and hateful bitch. 

If Daenerys was any kind of queen she would realize how important food is during winter and would not have burned loads of food at the reach. That food could have made it to WF and ease up the food supply situation. Instead she remarks "my dragons eat whatever they want" , I just wish the producers would have showed the scene of the 3 y/o toddler than was burned to crisp by Drogon.  Yes, Dany we know, they eat whatever they want. 

[Bryce Lynch]

I think Dany needs to establish a small council at Winterfell, that includes Jon, Sansa, a few of the Northern Lords (including Lady Mormont, of course) and her top advisers.  Then they could have more uncomfortable and contentious arguments in private, and present a more united front to the Lords and Smallfolk.  

Sansa undermining Dany with her concerns and complaints in front of a large gathering is not good for anyone.  

[terrymct]

21 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Dany on the other hand has always been supported and propped up by people. Let's see how well Dany reacts to repeated rape, her father beheaded in front of her, etc.

Dany was viewed by her brother as a piece of meat to be traded or sold for leverage in his campaign to gain the throne.  Her marriage to Drogo could reasonably be described as repeated rape, then either Stockholm syndrome or extreme opportunism.  Her father wasn't beheaded in front of her, but her a#$hole brother did have molten gold poured over his head in front of her but she pretty much supported that. 

She's seen terrible things and had bad things happen to her, but your overall comment about the difference between the two is valid in a number of ways.

[LadyChaos]

3 minutes ago, TaraS1 said:

I'm clearly in the minority, but I love Dany.  She's always been my favorite, even when she's making mistakes.  I appreciate her flaws as well as her badassery.

And even though I know Uncle Benjen got eaten by white walkers last season, I still thought the hooded figure might be him.  You never know with this show.

I love Dany. I do.  Dany, Jon, Arya, and Tyrion are my most favorite characters. Im just not blindly in love with her.  I see her as she is.  One of the amazing things about GRRM books, is that he created amazingly real, wonderful flawed, beautiful characters.  Dany is characteristic a Targaeryan.  She is arrogant, and honestly a bit mad.  Most Targs were in some degree. And unfortunately that will likely be her downfall, as it was with most Targs. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Wendy said:

It is only a problem when it is Sansa. 

Lady Mormont was more nasty than Sansa ever was and nobody blinked an eye. Lady Mormont had a point though, now that Jon is not KITN, what is he? Warden, back to bastard? what is his status? 

Arya basically told Jon that he needed to remember that they were also his family, again no big deal. Sansa mentioned realistic and practical things like how to feed the armies and the dragons and suddenly she is an ungrateful and hateful bitch. 

If Daenerys was any kind of queen she would realize how important food is during winter and would not have burned loads of food at the reach. That food could have made it to WF and ease up the food supply situation. Instead she remarks "my dragons eat whatever they want" , I just wish the producers would have showed the scene of the 3 y/o toddler than was burned to crisp by Drogon.  Yes, Dany we know, they eat whatever they want. 

While I think Dany is a good queen, I agree that is was stupid to burn the loot train instead of seizing it.   

As for her "Whatever they want" comment, I think it was a joke and also assuring Sansa that the dragons would provide food for themselves. 

[StarBrand]

I figured this would be more of a "set-up" episode, which it was. I really didn't care, because it was so nice to see new stuff.

I can buy the northerners being a bit miffed.  Jon said as king of the north he would get allies for the battles to come.  They did not expect him to relinquish his crown, and bring back a Queen.

I'm also glad they did not drag out Jon knowing about his true parentage. How long will it be before Dany knows? 

I don't think Dany is being arrogant or throwing her weight around. Not yet, anyway.  As Jon said, the Northerners have no idea who she is.  And right now, she's this unknown, scary strangers, with dragons, to boot.  She says she's not like her father-she needs to show these (and us) that.

Tyrion seems to be losing his strategic touch the last couple of seasons. Trusting Cersei to keep her word just being the latest.  I don't think he believed that, even after being confronted with the evidence of the White Walkers, that she'd be stubborn enough to sit things out.  But alas, Cersei is nuts.

A calm before the storm, this was, presumably before next week, when shit starts hitting the fans.

Edited April 15, 2019 by StarBrand

[AimingforYoko]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The Night King isnt just evil, he is getting artistic in his evil. 

He's gotten artistic before:

[MissLucas]

8 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

While I think Dany is a good queen, I agree that is was stupid to burn the loot train instead of seizing it.   

As for her "Whatever they want" comment, I think it was a joke and also assuring Sansa that the dragons would provide food for themselves. 

Eighteen goat and eleven sheep a day when they're 'barely eating'. Those were probably taken from livestock - unless we assume there are wild goats and sheep roaming the North. Sansa's reply should have been: 'Go and put some Wights on the barbie!'

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, terrymct said:

So, if I'm the head of one of the Northern houses, this would be my thought on that.

Dragons?  Wow, never seen one of those before.  Damn, they're eating a lot of my goats and sheep.  I hope she uses those on the white walkers and doesn't roast a bunch of Northerners in order to force us to follow her.  It's be nice to know for sure that she plans on using them for results that help us.

Breaker of chains?  What chains?  Where was that?  Oh, way across the water, places I sort of heard about in stories but that has little direct connection to my life...other than that she march a whole bunch of those people in military formation into the North.  Will those people fight the white walkers or will she use them to subdue the North and solidify her position here?

That pale looking woman has a lot of fire power and some kind of hold over Jon Snow, the person we recognize as King of the North.   This has the potential of going badly for us.

I agree that, while Dany has good motives and is there to protect the North, it is not unreasonable for the Northerners to be suspicious of her.   Dany and Jon really need to be careful about how things appear, not just how they are.

Cersei very effectively used propaganda about her being the daughter of the Mad King, bringing foreign eunuchs  and savages to conquer Westeros, to consolidate power with the remaining Lords after she blew up the Sept of Baelor.  They should be careful to prevent that sort of thinking from spreading in the North.  

[Timetoread]

26 minutes ago, TaraS1 said:

I'm clearly in the minority, but I love Dany.  She's always been my favorite, even when she's making mistakes.  I appreciate her flaws as well as her badassery.

And even though I know Uncle Benjen got eaten by white walkers last season, I still thought the hooded figure might be him.  You never know with this show.

You’re not alone.  I love Dany too.  But I think this is a good test on leadership.  

[Hana Chan]

As far as being a typical season premiere set up episode, this was a good one and it set up pretty much everything for the final season. We've got all the pieces on the board where they need to be, everyone's got their motives set and the game is in play. The problem is that everyone is playing their own game. I'll do a deeper dive in everyone's character threads, but in a nutshell...

Cersei has never been in a weaker position. She has one real ally at this moment (who's there so he can fuck a queen an isn't going to win points for smarts or trustworthiness) and a mercenary army that will be loyal so long as she can pay them. Sleeping with Euron in order to keep his interest when it was clear that it was pretty low on things that she wanted to do that morning (probably right below taking a good long sniff of the Mountain's privy pot) shows just how precarious her situation is.

Sansa may have everyone talking up how smart she is (YMMV), but she made a couple of really big mistakes here. Understandable that she's not going to be too trusting of Dany and less than enthused about foreign armies to feed, but revealing so clearly that she's suspicious of Dany wasn't the wisest thing IMO. She revealed her hand way too early. And she still doesn't get that there is a huge army of ice zombies that are going to be banging down her front door before too long. Worrying about who's claiming to be king is useless posturing at this stage.

Likewise Dany is proving that while she's pretty good at conquering, she's pants at actually ruling and building alliances. Jon warned her that she would need to earn the respect of the people in the North, so strutting around in full queen mode and complaining that Sansa doesn't respect her is not making Jon's job any easier. And seriously... she couldn't have tempered the revelation that she roasted Sam's father and brother just a little bit? Not even a "Sorry... my bad." 

Jon is trying to keep everyone on the same page and the problem is that people just aren't believing him about the severity of the treat and won't until the Night King is measuring their keeps for curtains. He's right that they have much bigger things to worry about and dealing with the Northern Lords bickering, Sansa questioning every move he makes and even Arya drawing the Stark circle of trust with him on the outside makes it understandable why flying off on Rheagel and disappearing for a thousand years might seem pretty appealing.

Ayra and Gendy... the ship is raising sails and heading out to sea.

And Jon having the truth dump about his real parentage... not at all surprised that his first response is denial. He's going to need a little time for that to really sink in.

[laprin]

11 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Is it me or does it seem like Dany's character is taking on a bit of a nasty edge? Her smirky face watching the dragons fly into Winterfell, the comment about Sansa must respect her as Queen and Bran's lack of enthusiasm makes me think we're being set up to watch an epic downfall. Or maybe Jon will have to assert himself as the true King and eventually battle it out with her.

Dany has always had a nasty edge to her personality. She has demonstrated on multiple occasions that she can be ruthless. I am more concerned about the direction of Sansa. She was needlessly rude with Dany at the initial meeting and pretty cold to Tyrion, although he has always been nothing but nice to her. She came off a lot like Cersei, and it brought to mind when Jon told Sansa she seemed to admire Cersei.  

[filmfan2480]

6 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Game of Thrones finally returns (for the last time!), and naturally the first spoken words are Tyrion making a crack about Varys' not having any balls.  Good to know that some thing won't change!

Oh, boy!  At this rate, this really might end with the Night King and the White Walkers not even having to do anything, and just sit back and let everyone else destroy each other either by infighting or, in Cersei's case, just staying on the sidelines and letting nature take its course.  To be fair, it does make sense that even the threat of undead zombies would not make everyone get on the same page automatically, but I really don't think they have that much time to get their shit together, here.  Focus, folks!  Winter is Coming!  And death!  Lots and lots of death!

Completely unsurprised that Sansa and Dany are butting heads.  I can kind of see both sides.  I understand why Sansa is concern over Dany running the show and how it looks like Jon is just going to do whatever she says, but this really should be something they should deal with after the threat of the ice zombies is dealt with, so Sansa's doubting, snipping and side-eyeing really isn't helping matters. 

But, seriously, for all of her strengths, Dany really doesn't have any tact, does she?  What's interesting is that I don't think she is delusional and she does knows that the Northerns aren't welcoming her with open arms, but it is like she just can't help making things worse by asserting her authority and trying to play the "I'm the big, bad queen!" card, when maybe a more grounded, calmer approach will work.  And while I still don't think Dany is a complete tyrant like those before her, she has shown that she can let her temper drive her to commit violent acts, when other options could have been available.  But I guess I need to remember that almost everyone here are probably younger than the actual age of the actors, so it probably makes sense that folks in their late teens/early twenties would act like this.

And all that said, I'm totally with Sansa over being disappointed with Tyrion, if he truly does think they can trust Cersei.  Come on, buddy!  Even Tywin himself would be spinning in his grave seeing you get played like this!

I do love that Davos continues to be the voice of reason during all of this.  Never doubt the Onion Knight!  And Varys continues to wisely just hang around in the background.  Pay no attention to the guy who is likely the truly smartest person here, folks!

Sam's reaction to what Dany did to his family was killer.  I suspect had it been just his dad, he would have gotten through it, but hearing she also executed Rickon has probably turn him against her, although I doubt he'll do anything, since he is probably all about taking out the Night King first.  But I'm glad he already revealed the truth about Jon's lineage to him.  This should be interesting....

I still can't tell if Cersei actually enjoys Euron's boorish antics, or if she's just using him until she no longer needs him.

Theon's rescue Yara seemed half-hearted, but at least she's safe and I'm looking forward to him joining the fight.

So, besides being used as a way to get some more classic Game of Thrones' nudity into the proceedings, it sounds like Bronn's arc is going to be possibly going after Jaime and Tyrion?  Hmm, I wonder how this will play out?  On one hand, I do think he truly has affection for both of them.  On the other hand, he does loves that money!

Glad that Tormund and Dolorous Edd are both still amongst the living.

So many reunions!  Arya/Jon.  Arya/Gendry.  Arya/ The Hound.  Sansa/Tyrion.  And then last, but certainly not least: Bran/Jaime!  Granted, considering how many folks probably want his head for his various acts, Jaime might be yearning to just be tossed off a tower like what he did to Bran those seasons ago!

The new opening credits are fantastic!

Welcome back, Game of Thrones!  Can't wait to see how all of this plays out.

I agree with all of this.  Great first ep, in my estimation.  Only 5 left!?  Wahhh.

[Wendy]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Sansa is so not buying what Danny is selling, and its hard to tell why as of now. Does she not like having this queen around who she doesent know, due to her understandable trust issues? Does she hate the idea of giving up power? Is this just a sister being suspicious of her brothers new girlfriend, especially everything that has happened to her family? Or does she just think that Danny is arrogant and doesent have much to back it up hat isnt big and scaly? 

I think that based on all what the North has heard about Dany, they have no reason to trust her, they heard how she uses dragons to burn people, that she gives no option but bend the knee of die. Add to that the fact that Dany's father burned Sansa's grandfather and uncle to the crisp and that she is coming with her entitled attitude and I can totally understand why Sansa is giving her the side eye. 

Funny thing is that next episode it would be about Dany talking about how her bed time stories were about how the evil kingslayer was the evil incarnated (Jaime) , I just wish someone (Lady Mormont) would tell Dany that for the northern children the scary tales were about how the mad King burned their lord liege and how Raegar kidnapped and raped Lyana and started a war that killed thousands. Of course it was not truth but they do not know that. 

I guess each story has two sides, not just Dany side. 

[StarBrand]

I believe the first test of Dany's character, at least in the eyes of the skeptical northerners, would be how she deals with Jamie Lannister. If she were to say something to him along the lines of"you killed my father-and that was actually the right thing to do. You ended a reign of tyranny.  You should have been praised for your bravery, not given the Kingslayer label". That would make people believe this Targareon is, in fact, not her father. That kind of response would floor Jamie (which might account for how his look goes from afraid to puzzled during the promo.)

[WatchrTina]

I'm really enjoying the commentary here and props to the person who figured out that the reason we had all those Arya reaction moments early on was so that we (the viewers) wouldn't be annoyed by Arya skipping the welcome ceremony, which meant we got to have the private Jon/Arya reunion, which was EVERYTHING.

I just have few random thoughts:

This ep was chock-a-block full of great reunion scenes but we are due a few more.  

1. (deleted -- they met)
2. Lyanna Mormont meeting her banished uncle Jorah could be interesting. I wonder if we'll see it on screen.
3. The fall-out from the Jaime/Bran reunion will be interesting but I'm wondering how Dany is going to react to meeting "The Kingslayer" -- the former Kingsguard who murdered her father.  Yeah Aryes was bat-shit crazy but that was a major vow Jaime broke.  And now he's turned his back on his own twin sister.  How do you trust THAT man?  Tyrion's got his work cut out for him if he wants to keep Jaime alive.  

Can I just get a "HELL YEAH" for when Tormund's group met Dolorous Ed's group?  I was SURE both survived (because I love them and therefore they MUST have plot armor enough to get them into the final season) but HELL YEAH!!!  I was doing the happy dance in my living room.  Right up until the moment the dead kid woke up and started screaming because . . . damn.

And I loved, loved, LOVED Gendry just getting to work in the armory on those nice big chunks of dragonglass (which they showed arriving by the wagon-load). The dude knows his strengths and just gets on with it. Also . . . priorities.  The Dead are coming.

Edited April 15, 2019 by WatchrTina

[Carolina Girl]

Show of hands.....how many of us watching at home said "Anything they want" BEFORE Dany did?  

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, StarBrand said:

I believe the first test of Dany's character, at least in the eyes of the skeptical northerners, would be how she deals with Jamie Lannister. If she were to say something to him along the lines of"you killed my father-and that was actually the right thing to do. You ended a reign of tyranny.  You should have been praised for your bravery, not given the Kingslayer label". That would make people believe this Targareon is, in fact, not her father. That kind of response would floor Jamie (which might account for how his look goes from afraid to puzzled during the promo.)

I'm not sure if there is any reaction to Jamie that will please the Northerners.  Your suggestion would show her to be reasonable, but the Northerners hate the Lanisters, so they might want Jamie killed anyway.  

[mikal768]

55 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

If things were that clear-cut books on Medieval history would be much shorter. 

Yes. Because those people rebelled against what was to them lawful authority. Which is my point. These people are acting out of what would be considered expected behavior in a feudal society. 

Dany is also expecting that the person who willingly abdicated would have people who would follow him since he was their king. Especially as she’s coming to save their asses from the zombies. If she shows weakness she’s lost.  

[StarBrand]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure if there is any reaction to Jamie that will please the Northerners.  Your suggestion would show her to be reasonable, but the Northerners hate the Lanisters, so they might want Jamie killed anyway.  

Perhaps. I just have the feeling this Dany-Jamie meeting will not quite go as we expect it might...

[Lady S.]

58 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Let's see how well Dany reacts to repeated rape

I seem to remember Dany being raped repeatedly in early s1 and being raised by her creepy, abusive brother. But sure let's erase all the trauma of the first 16 years of her life because things got better once she found love with Drogo and started standing up to Viserys. Or maybe, just maybe, she and Sansa have things in common and there's a reason  neither wants other people having power over them.

Some of y'all are really reaching jumping on Jon for not caring if Dany threatened Sansa's life when all she did was complain about Sansa not respecting her without finishing the thought. Jon obviously does not share the opinion that his girlfriend is a madwoman so why would he assume she'd threaten his sister's life to his face without her saying the words?

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, StarBrand said:

Perhaps. I just have the feeling this Dany-Jamie meeting will not quite go as we expect it might...

It will be interesting to see how Jaime is received.  Tyrion and Brienne will vouch for him, but I'm not sure that will be enough. 

[Drogo]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

Dany on the other hand has always been supported and propped up by people. Let's see how well Dany reacts to repeated rape, her father beheaded in front of her, etc.

While it's not a competition for who's suffered more, Daenerys has been through some shit (including rape, trauma, and loss.) 

Sansa grew up in a home surrounded by people who adored her with her only real concern being stuck married to a Lord instead of a King.  In addition to her sheltered warm childhood Sansa's had the Hound watch over her from Joffrey, Baelish evacuating her from KL and bringing her to the Vale, even Brienne and Pod sitting outside Winterfell while she was captive with the Boltons.  She didn't earn any of their devotion herself: The Hound has a penchant for protecting young girls, Baelish was carrying a post-Catelyn torch for her, and Brienne swore an oath to her mother. 

Daenerys was on her own most of her life, with a creepy brother to remind her at every turn that she had but one very specific value and he'd let her be ripped to shreds if it meant he'd sit in the Iron Throne.  She was obviously elevated by her marriage to the Khal, but she found a voice in a society that wanted none of it.  Luckily for her, the "savage" wanted his queen to own her position and grow fierce and authoritative changing his own khalasar's practices to suit her preferences.  But she lost her husband and child, and had the giant balls to walk into a burning funeral pyre, winning herself 3 dragons and her first personal supporters in the process... including Jorah, who had originally sworn his sword to her for treacherous reasons but because of her actions grew to admire and love her.  She earned the Dothraki en masse in similar fashion.  She gained the Unsullied army through her own cleverness and cunning.  Daario Naharis fell in love with her beauty, spirit and diplomacy with his disgusting bros- killed them, and promised her the Second Sons.  She freed the slaves and earned their devotion.  She could have taken the armada she was offered and left the slaves to be reclaimed by their masters, but didn't.  The ends justify the means for her, and she wants to make a better world without The Wheel that rolls over rich and poor alike. 

They've both had some help, but which of their counterparts hasn't?  Be that at it may, I thought Daenerys was very patient and diplomatic with the Northerners, Sansa included.  Only one of the two is Queen, and the other should probably check herself. 

Moral absolutism hasn't worked out for anyone yet, Jon being the only remaining possibility.. and his future's not looking bright ATM.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Lady S. said:

I seem to remember Dany being raped repeatedly in early s1 and being raised by her creepy, abusive brother. But sure let's erase all the trauma of the first 16 years of her life because things got better once she found love with Drogo and started standing up to Viserys. Or maybe, just maybe, she and Sansa have things in common and there's a reason  neither wants other people having power over them.

Some of y'all are really reaching jumping on Jon for not caring if Dany threatened Sansa's life when all she did was complain about Sansa not respecting her without finishing the thought. Jon obviously does not share the opinion that his girlfriend is a madwoman so why would he assume she'd threaten his sister's life to his face without her saying the words?

I don't get why people think you have to love Dany and hate Sansa or vice versa.  I like both of them.   I like Dany more and think she is more right than Sansa, but I understand Sansa's perspective.   I think both are looking out for the interests of the North and the realm, though they both also value their positions of power.

I agree that they have a lot in common.  People seem to forget that Dany was more or less raped by Drogo in the beginning of their marriage, that she has been betrayed multiple times, lost her husband and son, nearly died of starvation in the desert. was abducted by the Dothraki, etc.    

[Timetoread]

57 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Dany needs to establish a small council at Winterfell, that includes Jon, Sansa, a few of the Northern Lords (including Lady Mormont, of course) and her top advisers.  Then they could have more uncomfortable and contentious arguments in private, and present a more united front to the Lords and Smallfolk.  

Sansa undermining Dany with her concerns and complaints in front of a large gathering is not good for anyone.  

 I think too much is made of arguments in front of a large gathering.  That large gathering are the head of the Northern houses.  It's like Congress or Parliament.  It is there that EVERYBODY gets to voice their concerns and make their cases, with the Warden mostly listening and making the final decision. This is how Ned did it and now how Sansa is doing it.

My mother once told me (as a threat, mind you) that two women can't head a household.  The North is Sansa's home.  Winterfell is Sansa's home. Jon is her brother.  I'm sure she was a bit miffed that some narcissistic broad spread her legs and shows up in Winterfell expecting deference.  The one who was wrong was Jon.  He should have introduced Danerys properly to his family and to his people with a explanation and a powerpoint presentation.   Instead he rolls in all post-coital next to her like they just got married or something.  It was a show of strength where what they needed was a show of diplomacy.  Strength works for enemies.  Not for family.  It was annoying - and these are people I like!

[Bryce Lynch]

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

I think we could argue all day about Sansa vs. Dany but heres something to chew on: if Samsa is wary it's because she has been severely traumatized by Cersei, Joffrey, Ramsay Bolton and Littlefinger. Shes not going to trust her brothers gf just because. 

Dany on the other hand has always been supported and propped up by people. Let's see how well Dany reacts to repeated rape, her father beheaded in front of her, etc.

Dany has been "propped up"?  Her father was killed when she was a baby and she was forced to live in exile as a beggar in Esos.  Her creepy brother sold her to a barbarian warlord in an attempt to get the Iron Throne.

She was sentenced to what could have been a life of being Drogo's rape toy.  But, instead the adapted to Dothraki society and also adapter her husband to her.

She then mistakenly trusted the witch who she showed mercy to, causing her to lose her husband and son, and her position of power.  She then had the courage to walk into her husband's funeral pyre with her dragon eggs and became the Mother of Dragons. 

She then suffered in hunger and thirst with her remaining followers through hundreds of miles of desert.  At Qarth she was again betrayed and had to take back her stolen dragons and take revenge on her betrayers.

After that she outwitted a slave trader to obtain the Unsullied, and then set them free and gave them the option of serving her or going on their way.  

She then used that army to free the slaves in 2 more cities.   

She fought off numerous insurrections by the Masters who were trying to enslave her new people again.

She was abducted by the Dothraki and outwitted and destroyed the Khals who wanted to rape and kill her and became the leader of all the Dothraki.   

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Timetoread said:

 I think too much is made of arguments in front of a large gathering.  That large gathering are the head of the Northern houses.  It's like Congress or Parliament.  It is there that EVERYBODY gets to voice their concerns and make their cases, with the Warden mostly listening and making the final decision. This is how Ned did it and now how Sansa is doing it.

My mother once told me (as a threat, mind you) that two women can't head a household.  The North is Sansa's home.  Winterfell is Sansa's home. Jon is her brother.  I'm sure she was a bit miffed that some narcissistic broad spread her legs and shows up in Winterfell expecting deference.  The one who was wrong was Jon.  He should have introduced Danerys properly to his family and to his people with a explanation and a powerpoint presentation.   Instead he rolls in all post-coital next to her like they just got married or something.  It was a show of strength where what they needed was a show of diplomacy.  Strength works for enemies.  Not for family.  It was annoying - and these are people I like!

But the North had a Warden, not a King or Queen (at least not since the Targareon conquest). 

I don't think we ever saw Ned have issues debating in front of a large gathering of Lords.  Maybe he did, but Robb was the first one we saw do this, and that might have been a sign of his weakness, due to his youth and inexperience.  

Ned didn't call a meeting to decide whether to accept being Hand of the King.  

I'm not saying they shouldn't have larger meetings.  But, having the top leaders bicker publicly with the King (Jon) and now the Queen is not a good look and creates division, unrest and unease.  They should have it out in the small council chamber, and then bring their decision to the Lords, IMO.  

At the very least, Sansa should not be disrespectful, as she was to Dany in public.  

[Bryce Lynch]

Arya's answer to Jon, when he asked if she had ever used Needle ("Once or twice") seemed like a callback to her answer to Hotpie about baking pies.  This brings up the question of when is Hotpie going to show up at Winterhellfell to cook all these troops some decent food, and present the Queen with a loaf of dragonbread?

Does Jon know that Arya is a Faceless Man or of the skills she now has?  He seemed unaware of it.   Sansa may not have had time to tell him, or could be withholding that information.  

Edited April 15, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[LadyChaos]

Here's an unhappy truth for everyone:  THEY HAVE ALL SUFFERED A GREAT DEAL!

Arya: accidentally killed a boy when she was 11, spent days living on the streets, watched multiple people she cared about being murdered violentantly in front of her, held by several people 'for her own safety' until said person can find a family member to ransom her too, was made blind and was beaten while being left on the streets.

Sansa: Was held captive at Kings Landing (though stayed in comfort) being constantly afraid for her life, being manipulated by LF and set up by him to look involved in Joffery's murder so she would be forced to leave with him if she hadn't already listened to him, watched her Aunt be murdered in front of her and being forced to lie about it for her own safety, being raped and beaten by Ramsey.

Jon: Was treated like shit his whole childhood by Caitlyn and Sansa, for having the gall to exist. Working at the wall for the Night Watch is its own brand of torture. His own men turning on him, and killing him. Watched the woman he loved being murdered in front of his  eyes. Coming back from the dead.

Dany: was emotionally, physically, and mentally abused by her brother while being on the run her entire childhood, sold into marriage to a man 15+ years older than her, raped, and lost her unborn child.

Bran: was pushed out of a window and was left paralyzed because he saw Jaime and Cersei going at it. Spent years on the run for fear for his life, and become a shell of a person to be a vessel for a higher diety (sort of)

They all suffered.  No one suffered more or less than another.  Their suffrage was each unique to their own story.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, terrymct said:

Lady Mormont still kicks butts and takes names.  Yeah, Jon.  You left a king.  You got some 'splainin to do.   Tell the Northerners why they should support Dany, what made you change your position, and it can't be "well, we need her dragons in the short term and she's got troops, too."

"She saved my life and brought back a prisoner to show Cersei"

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

This brings up the question of when is Hotpie going to show up at Winterhellfell to cook all these troops some decent food, and present the Queen with a loaf of dragonbread?

Question:   "How are we going to feed the largest army the world's ever seen and two fully grown dragons?"

Answer:

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, Drogo said:

Question:   "How are we going to feed the largest army the world's ever seen and two fully grown dragons?"

Answer:

The trick is, is to make sure you really brown the butter....

[Drogo]

Not that I'm rooting for a Stark/Stark/Barratheon-bastard love triangle, but I did find it oddly convenient that when Arya told Gendry mid-flirt-session that he "didn't know any other rich girls" the scene cut directly to Sansa looking lovely by candlelight. 

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, Drogo said:

Question:   "How are we going to feed the largest army the world's ever seen and two fully grown dragons?"

Answer:

I could see Hotpie getting Drogon and Rhaegal hooked on his meat pies and using them to seize the Iron Throne for himself.   

[GodsBeloved]

Maybe I am remembering this incorrectly but didn't Daenerys agree to help with the Night King before Jon bent the knee? If so, he lied when he said he gave up the crown to save the North.

[Drogo]

Just now, LadyChaos said:

The trick is, is to make sure you really brown the butter....

And whatever you do, you cannot give up on the gravy!

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Drogo said:

Not that I'm rooting for a Stark/Stark/Barratheon love triangle, but I did find it oddly convenient that when Arya told Gendry mid-flirt-session that he "didn't know any other rich girls" the scene cut directly to Sansa looking lovely by candlelight. 

I always wondered if Sansa and Gendry might end up getting married fulfilling Ned's promise that one day she would marry someone "brave and gentle and strong".   

[terrymct]

4 minutes ago, Drogo said:

Not that I'm rooting for a Stark/Stark/Barratheon-bastard love triangle, but I did find it oddly convenient that when Arya told Gendry mid-flirt-session that he "didn't know any other rich girls" the scene cut directly to Sansa looking lovely by candlelight. 

It strikes me funny that this is also the scenario through which Arya could become queen, something that is the antithesis to her whole being pretty much.

[GodsBeloved]

12 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

The dragon staring down Jon while he makes out with Dany will never not be funny.  Stop kissing my Mom.

and your Auntie

[Drogo]

Just now, GodsBeloved said:

Maybe I am remembering this incorrectly but didn't Daenerys agree to help with the Night King before Jon bent the knee? If so, he lied when he said he gave up the crown to save the North.

She did, but he'd already made the decision to bend the knee.  He didn't lie, he said he gave up his crown to save the North, not to get Daenerys to agree to save the North. 

Being unified under a worthy leader is the best way to save the North.

Robert: "Which is the bigger number, five or one?"
Cersei:  "Five."
Robert:  "Five. (*holds up fingers*) One. (*makes a fist")  One army, a real army, united behind one leader with one purpose." 

[GodsBeloved]

12 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

I'm with Sansa about Dany. You can't just ride in on your dragons and proclaim yourself queen and expect everyone to bend the knee. This is the thing that's Dany's downfall -- she's always felt entitled to rule, and always hits up against the reality that saying you're the queen and being the mother of dragons doesn't mean your whole kingdom will respect you.

I think that is my issue with Daenerys. Her entitlement is too much on display. After all she went through with the other groups she's encountered, she should know by now that she does need to earn respect. That is much wiser than blowing into town with your show of force expecting these folks to give her respect because, well she's entitled to it.

[Drogo]

3 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I always wondered if Sansa and Gendry might end up getting married fulfilling Ned's promise that one day she would marry someone "brave and gentle and strong".   

Gendry's a little rough around the edges.  This sounds more like Podrick. 

[Bryce Lynch]

Just now, Drogo said:

Gendry's a little rough around the edges.  This sounds more like Podrick. 

I'm not sure Pod is all that strong (except between the sheets).  I've always seen Gendry as gentle.  He was always very respectful towards Arya, when he knew she was a girl, but nobody else did.   

Also, marrying Gendry would mean she would be marrying King Robert's real son, instead of his fake one.   

[Wendy]

18 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Maybe I am remembering this incorrectly but didn't Daenerys agree to help with the Night King before Jon bent the knee? If so, he lied when he said he gave up the crown to save the North.

100% 

That was the stupidest decision ever. Jon felt guilty because instead of jumping on the dragon ASAP he stood there to kill more WW and gave the NK the opportunity to aim for Viserion so to compensate for his guiltiness he bent the knee when he didn't have to. 

How different would it had been if he was still KITN and Daenerys was there not as queen but as an allied, bringing tons of food with her and her armies. It would surely have made a difference IMO 

He at least should be honest about it and let the Northerners know this, he should let them know that Daenerys offered to help before he bent the knee but also should let them know that their little ill advised adventure has given the NK an ice dragon. I am sure that would go really well with the Northerners. 

For as much as I like Jon, he has made his share of screen ups 

Edited April 15, 2019 by Wendy

[GodsBeloved]

12 hours ago, Lillith said:

Add me to the list of those who find Dany's behavior arrogant. She's setting herself up for a fall. So far her attitude is bend the knee or I'll burn you. Exactly what Jon Snow warned her against. Sansa is being practical in this case. And in questioning Jon's motives.

And apparently if you aren't showing her the respect she thinks she deserves she'll handle you. Jeez I wanted Jon to ask her what exactly she was threatening to do to Sansa if she didn't toe the Daenerys line.

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I'm not sure Pod is all that strong (except between the sheets).  I've always seen Gendry as gentle.  He was always very respectful towards Arya, when he knew she was a girl, but nobody else did.   

Also, marrying Gendry would mean she would be marrying King Robert's real son, instead of his fake one.   

"Your a Lady...oh and I've been pissing in front of you, and all that talk about cocks. I take it all back, I'm sorry M'Lady"

"DON'T CALL ME M'LADY"

"As my lady commands'

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

I think that is my issue with Daenerys. Her entitlement is too much on display. After all she went through with the other groups she's encountered, she should know by now that she does need to earn respect. That is much wiser than blowing into town with your show of force expecting these folks to give her respect because, well she's entitled to it.

Daenerys has earned everything she has.  That said, it probably would have been better if Jon had not decided to bend the knee out of gratitude and admiration.

If Dany had come North and rescued the Notherners from the Night King and his army, before Jon bent the knee, the Northerners probably would have been much more receptive to her rule, once she had proven herself to them.