Season 5: Speculation

[SeanC]

Set spoiler (for one of them at least):

 

Tormund

That was debunked.

[Hecate7]

I'm not very happy about Penny being omitted. That would have been the role of a lifetime for some little person. Delighted that Maggy the Frog is in, but if she's only in for one line and doesn't use the word valonquar, then I don't see the point.

 

Never liked Arianne, but without her or Quentyn what's the point of Dorne again? Are we rolling her and Quentyn into Trystane and Ellaria? That'd be ok.

 

I don't see the point AT ALL of having all the Theon torture and not having Farya, and not hearing any news of Jeyne Poole is weird. Weirder still is having Sansa go to Winterfell, which according to the trailer and the stills, she does. What on earth is the point of going to Winterfell now, if you are Peter Baelish? If they take Manderly's bit and give it to Baelish, I will be disgusted, because I do not want to cheer for something Baelish does. I don't want to root for Baelish.

[Haleth]

I think it's pretty clear Ellaria will replace Arianne, which is fine by me.

The only reason I can see for Sansa to replace Fake Arya is for her to marry Ramsey, kill Ramsey, Littlefinger marries the widow, gets control of the North. Maybe?

[Dev F]

The only reason I can see for Sansa to replace Fake Arya is for her to marry Ramsey, kill Ramsey, Littlefinger marries the widow, gets control of the North. Maybe?

 

Sansa wouldn't gain political or military influence by marrying Ramsey, though -- not until she bears his children. If Ramsey died childless, some Bolton cousin or something would become heir to the North and she and Littlefinger would be left with nothing.

 

And if the point is just to say, "Now that Ramsey is dead, screw the Boltons and rally to Sansa Stark, the true Lady of Winterfell!" well, they don't need to marry Ramsey for that. She already beats the Boltons in a straight-up status-off -- which is the only reason they'd agree to marry her in the first place!

 

I dunno, this whole storyline seems pretty forced and clumsy to me. Now, maybe they'll still figure out a way to have it make sense -- after all, they've done it before, as when they artfully retconned Shireen back into existence -- but for now I'm deeply skeptical.

[Hecate7]

Sansa wouldn't gain political or military influence by marrying Ramsey, though -- not until she bears his children. If Ramsey died childless, some Bolton cousin or something would become heir to the North and she and Littlefinger would be left with nothing.

 

And if the point is just to say, "Now that Ramsey is dead, screw the Boltons and rally to Sansa Stark, the true Lady of Winterfell!" well, they don't need to marry Ramsey for that. She already beats the Boltons in a straight-up status-off -- which is the only reason they'd agree to marry her in the first place!

 

I dunno, this whole storyline seems pretty forced and clumsy to me. Now, maybe they'll still figure out a way to have it make sense -- after all, they've done it before, as when they artfully retconned Shireen back into existence -- but for now I'm deeply skeptical.

 

She can't beat them in a straight-up status off without revealing who she is. Sansa Stark is wanted for Regicide. The necklace convicts her. Tommen likes her, Margaery likes her, but they're not going to just let her get off scot-free with the murder of the previous monarch. If word gets out that Sansa Stark is running around anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms, either assassins will be sent, or authorities summoned, or both. There will always be people willing to help her, but there will also always be someone willing to turn her in.

 

But if she's Arya, not Sansa, then she's not wanted for regicide or any other actual crime. Unfortunately that means she becomes the Fake Arya. I would rather watch that, than the rescue of Miranda, the sadist who helped castrate Theon and who demanded that her girlfriend's face be eaten off by dogs. I don't care enough about that character.

 

Yes, it will be awful to see Sansa go through that plotline, but I don't see another way to the escape from Winterfell, really.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Hecate7

[Skeeter22]

If the Vale did combine forces with the North to drive out the Boltons, what could the Lannisters really do about it? They couldn't take it back, particularly with Stannis already in the North. Sansa could theoretically install herself at Winterfell and there's nothing the Lanisters could really do about it, whether she killed Joffrey or not. The Lannisters, and the Tyrells, really are screwed if they lose the North, the Vale, and Dorne, with a possible invasion by Dany.

[Dev F]

She can't beat them in a straight-up status off without revealing who she is. Sansa Stark is wanted for Regicide. The necklace convicts her. Tommen likes her, Margaery likes her, but they're not going to just let her get off scot-free with the murder of the previous monarch. If word gets out that Sansa Stark is running around anywhere in the Seven Kingdoms, either assassins will be sent, or authorities summoned, or both. There will always be people willing to help her, but there will also always be someone willing to turn her in.

 

But if she's Arya, not Sansa, then she's not wanted for regicide or any other actual crime. Unfortunately that means she becomes the Fake Arya.

 

You're right about the problem with Sansa's current reputation, and posing as Arya would resolve it. But it wouldn't change the fact that marrying Ramsey gains her and Littlefinger nothing unless she bears the creep's children. (Something Littlefinger wants to avoid nearly as much as Sansa does, since he desires her for himself.) And it introduces its own problem, namely that Sansa doesn't look or act anything like her sister, and claiming to be Arya Stark is just going to draw attention to the fact that she looks way more like the taller, more beautiful, wanted for regicide Stark instead.

[Hecate7]

Arya was a kid, and a solitary kid at that. AND she was female. Nobody knows or cares what she looked or acted like. People will assume that one Stark sister looks just like another. Half of these people never even saw Ned or Catelyn, and the ones who did know better than to rock the boat at this point. Sansa's looks are no problem.

 

What IS a problem, and what I keep coming back to, is what's in it for Littlefinger? I'm beginning to think he doesn't make it through this season....

[Dev F]

Arya was a kid, and a solitary kid at that. AND she was female. Nobody knows or cares what she looked or acted like. 

 

People do care what the daughters of the great lords look like, though. Sansa was the most eligible bachelorette in her father's kingdom when she was barely a teenager. And surely there are people who remember that her little sister was completely different in every possible way.

 

But if no one does remember even the most basic details about Arya, or no one is going to make a stink if they do, well, then what's the advantage of having Sansa pretend to be her sister at all? Just get a Northern girl who doesn't look anything like her but isn't a wanted fugitive.

 

I mean, I get why it's a tempting way to go for the sake of story economy, but I just can't figure out how it makes any sense for any of the parties involved. The Boltons risk their alliance with the crown by harboring the realm's most wanted fugitive, and in exchange they get an imposter who's no better than some random girl they could've trained up themselves. And Littlefinger? He leaves the safety of the nigh impregnable neutral realm that is the Vale to deliver himself and Sansa to the torture-happy family that conspired to murder, among many others, his one true love. And in exchange he gains an ally he can't possibly trust and a marriage partnership that can only bear fruit once the girl he creepily lusts after gets knocked up by an unpredictable psychopath. At which point she's likely to be so traumatized that she'd sooner jump out a window than leverage her children for the benefit of the man who arranged her marriage to the psychopath in the first place. It's just total absurdity from beginning to end.

 

I still think a far cleaner explanation is that Littlefinger and Sansa go to Winterfell because they mistakenly believe that the real Arya is there in need of rescue. Though, sadly, that doesn't seem to be where the most recent round of spoilers are pointing. . . .

[ElizaD]

– Episode #44: “The Sons of the Harpy”: Margaery seeks prudent counsel. Jaime struggles in foreign lands. Dany answers the Harpy’s call. (Written by Dave Hill; directed by Mark Mylod.)

— Episode #45: “Kill the Boy”: Cersei plots a dangerous game. Jon swings his sword. Melisandre studies the signs. Tyrion sees the ghosts of the past. (Written by David Benioff & D. B. Weiss; directed by Jeremy Podeswa.)

— Episode #46: “Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken”: Margaery receives a grim surprise. Jon hears dark tidings. Winterfell prepares for a wedding. Doran Martell speaks his word. (Written by Bryan Cogman; directed by Jeremy Podeswa.)

— Episode #47: “The Gift”: In Meereen, Dany must compromise or flee. Stannis comes into trouble on his way south. Brienne finds shelter in the woods. Arya is faced with her destiny. (Written by David Benioff & D. B. Weiss; directed by Miguel Sapochnik.)

 

44 - Does Olenna arrive to counsel Margaery? I can't remember if she's been said to be at Tywin's funeral.

 

45 - Goodbye, Slynt!

 

46 - Is Loras arrested? I'd speculated that Margaery would be arrested in episode 7, could it be as early as 6?

 

And wedding preparations with no sign of Fake Arya - if the show has Sansa marry Ramsay, goddamn. It's an idiotic, indefensible move that gains her and Littlefinger absolutely nothing. There's no way to spin it as anything other than humiliation. If they wanted to send her to Winterfell to replace a minor character like Manderly as the enemy within, fine. If they wanted Sansa betrothed to Ramsay in a fake alliance while she and Littlefinger scheme to destroy the Boltons, fine - Margaery and Joffrey waited from 2x10 to 4x02 to get married, Cersei and Loras have been betrothed since 3x05, there would be absolutely no need to actually go through with a Sansa/Ramsay marriage. But if Sansa's story in the Vale was cut so that they could rush to include marital rape without needing to cast Jeyne Poole, that goes beyond the Stoneheart/Manderly news of cutting things I enjoyed in the books. It's just mind-boggling.

 

Why twist Sansa's story so that she becomes an utter failure as a player? Wasn't the walk of shame enough sexual abuse for this season? If the showrunners think so little of Sansa that they really do see her and Jeyne as interchangeable passive victims of rape to be rescued by Theon, if they casually change a POV's plot so that they get to include Bolton rape as something absolutely vital and fascinating that can't possibly be cut, that's more disappointing than anything else has been. Every new bit of information makes the Sansa as Manderly theory shakier and Sansa as Jeyne/Ramsay's wife more depressingly likely. Sophie said that Sansa has to stay alive for her brothers: if Theon tells her about Bran/Rickon and the show uses that as justification for why she endures marriage to Ramsay, that will be bleak as hell. Is there no one involved in the production who'd say "hey, maybe we don't need more rape on this show?" How could "let's have Ramsay rape Sansa instead" sound like a good idea? Sophie has mentioned Sansa's manipulative skills and getting away from past helplessness, but if that simply means she doesn't cry a lot after being pushed into an invalid marriage and losing her virginity to a monster, she shouldn't have bothered to hype the story at all and stuck to talk about Sansa suffering.

 

47 - Maybe Stannis runs into Yara here.

Edited March 28, 2015 by ElizaD

[Advance35]

Well I'm excited.  I can't help it.   Sansa getting to interact with new characters is always exciting for me.    Margaery Tyrell entered into a marriage with a monster willingly, maybe Sansa will do the same.    

 

I could see her being somewhat protected if House Bolton allies with LF (since he's in league with The Vale, another one of the Great Houses that has an army that hasn't been depleted and food stocked at full capacity) especially if word is getting around about the state of Kings Landing and The trouble with the Iron Bank.   And if speculation turns out to be true and Baelish get's The Vale Lords to agree to an alliance with The North (provided he can turn them) I would have know trouble believing that turn of events and I think it would be very much worth a trip to Winterfell and a Parlay with the Boltons.

 

I just don't want another bit player taking up screen time.   Shae was over-emphasized and I feel like that's why we didn't get to see Sansa conspiring with Dontos during Season 2 and if it wasn't Shae it was Roz.   I say consolidate and move forward.

 

And I hate to mention it but we still don't know what's ahead for Sansa in the book.   Her fate MAY not be pleasant, there is no way to tell at this point what the show is inventing and what GRRM intends to write since GRRM hasn't released the book.   I feel kind of sorry for Benioff and Weiss.

 

I still think a far cleaner explanation is that Littlefinger and Sansa go to Winterfell because they mistakenly believe that the real Arya is there in need of rescue. Though, sadly, that doesn't seem to be where the most recent round of spoilers are pointing. . . .

 

 

I don't think Littlefinger would care about Arya and I don't think Sansa believes Arya's alive anymore.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Advance35

[Haleth]

I wouldn't put it past Littlefinger to propose to Roose Bolton that his illegitimate niece pretend to be Arya and marry Ramsey.  Roose would see it as LF worming his way into an alliance with the North and with the Vale army as an incentive it would be tempting.  But I can't believe Roose wouldn't take one look at Sansa and realize she is a daughter of Catlyn Stark.   

 

With Ramsey dead Sansa wouldn't have to reveal her identity.  She could rally the North as Arya, with or without a hot pie in the oven.  That's what happens in the book.

 

From a television point of view I can see how the writers would want to consolidate Stoneheart, Manderly and Sansa into one avenging figure.  It is probably better to use someone with a powerful ally than poor Jeyne Poole who has no one to help her.  In the book she's a throwaway figure-- tragic but no one (readers) really cares if she if she survives being saved by Theon.  And while it's fun to read about Manderly playing both sides, in the show he is a nonentity.  To expedite the story, Sansa as Fake Arya makes sense.

 

Is there no one involved in the production who'd say "hey, maybe we don't need more rape on this show?"

 

HAHAHA!  Good one.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Haleth

[SeanC]

But I can't believe Roose wouldn't take one look at Sansa and realize she is a daughter of Catlyn Stark. 

Why?  Of all the problems with this potential story, that's really not one of them.  TV!Sansa looks absolutely nothing like TV!Catelyn, apart from hair colour, which she dyed.

[Dev F]

I don't think Littlefinger would care about Arya and I don't think Sansa believes Arya's alive anymore.

 

Yes, but Brienne knows she's alive and was on her way to meet them when last we saw her. My suggestion was that she could tell them that Arya is alive and ran away, and then later they could hear about fake!Arya in Winterfell and Sansa could force Littlefinger to intervene on the slim chance that it's really her.

 

Is it still super kludgy? Sure. But it's a kludge that's actually based on what's happened in the show up till now -- Sansa's growing assertiveness, Brienne's search for Sansa last season -- instead of a bunch of from-the-moon nonsense that directly contradicts everything that's gone before.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Dev F

[Advance35]

Well as much as LF is "enthralled" with Sansa (for lack of a better term), I question whether she could MAKE Littlefinger do anything.   I'm not going to continue to speculate because the show will tell me soon enough but I hope it's about Littlefinger and Sansa pursuing power by unifying The Vale, The North and eventually the Riverlands.   

 

The Boltons are the current ruling family so it makes sense for them to pursue an alliance.   I don't know, I think it's all rather feasible.

[SeanC]

Well as much as LF is "enthralled" with Sansa (for lack of a better term), I question whether she could MAKE Littlefinger do anything.   I'm not going to continue to speculate because the show will tell me soon enough but I hope it's about Littlefinger and Sansa pursuing power by unifying The Vale, The North and eventually the Riverlands.   

 

The Boltons are the current ruling family so it makes sense for them to pursue an alliance.   I don't know, I think it's all rather feasible.

But Littlefinger's pursuit of power involves using Sansa's name eventually, and the Boltons would never ally with Sansa openly (unless they're really, really dumb), because Sansa would rather obviously want them dead.  And, per the previews at least, this is being pitched as her 'avenging'.

[Dev F]

The Boltons are the current ruling family so it makes sense for them to pursue an alliance.   I don't know, I think it's all rather feasible.

 

That's like saying, "It makes sense for ISIS to ally itself with Israel since it's the most powerful country in the Middle East." Powerful or no, their goals and their existing alliances are so completely incompatible that neither side has anything to gain from even contemplating it.

 

Just last season Littlefinger convinced Lord Royce and Lady Waynwood that the Vale needs to rally behind Robin Arryn and stand against House Lannister in revenge for the death of their friend Ned Stark. And this season he would entangle the Vale with the Lannisters' most violent and treacherous allies, who murdered Ned Stark's own son? Why in the world would the Lords of the Vale continue to support him after that -- particularly after, per the spoilers for episode 1,

he abandons his only real bargaining chip, Robin Arryn, to Lord Royce's care

?

Edited March 28, 2015 by Dev F

[Advance35]

But Littlefinger's pursuit of power involves using Sansa's name eventually, and the Boltons would never ally with Sansa openly (unless they're really, really dumb), because Sansa would rather obviously want them dead.  And, per the previews at least, this is being pitched as her 'avenging'.

 

 

Maybe LF and Sansa are planning to use Bolton's and their forces as muscle before disposing of them, even in the book LF and Alayne are being discreet with her real identity and if The Lannisters are being publicly weakened I don't think it's off the charts for LF to make overtures to the Boltons about hitching their wagon elsewhere.    The fact that the Boltons are so isolated and publicly despised actually works in LF's favor since they aren't likely to have better sources of information.  

 

Both sides will be biding time until they can betray the other it's just a matter of who get's the better shot first.   For all we know Sansa could have the same effect on Ramsay that Margaery had on Joffrey.

 

I think the writers could go in quite a few directions.   Maybe in the show Winterfell will prepare for the Wedding but it'll be stopped due to a Stannis invasion.   I'm just not ready to write this particular Book to show adaptation off just yet.

[BlackberryJam]

Watchers on the Wall is now saying those episode synopses are fake.

[Dev F]

A much more straightforward possibility for the Littlefinger/Sansa storyline occurred to me: There's no particular reason why they need to visit the North as envoys of Lord Robin Arryn pushing a new alliance with the Vale. They could just as easily present themselves as allies of House Lannister providing aid and counsel to their fellow loyalists in House Bolton. That's essentially what Littlefinger does in the book when he sends them fake!Arya, he just doesn't make the gesture in person.

 

That would make more sense, I think, as it doesn't require everyone involved to start breaking alliances publicly for no good reason, while still allowing Littlefinger and Sansa to plot some sabotage behind the Boltons' backs.

[Hecate7]

People do care what the daughters of the great lords look like, though. Sansa was the most eligible bachelorette in her father's kingdom when she was barely a teenager. And surely there are people who remember that her little sister was completely different in every possible way.

 

But if no one does remember even the most basic details about Arya, or no one is going to make a stink if they do, well, then what's the advantage of having Sansa pretend to be her sister at all? Just get a Northern girl who doesn't look anything like her but isn't a wanted fugitive.

 

They don't have to remember what Arya looked like, to know that if she's alive, she is the only Stark left, in practical terms. Robb is dead. Sansa is as good as dead--wanted for regicide, which carries a sentence of death. Bran and Rickon are both believed to be dead, and so the actual current heir to Winterfell is Arya Stark now. It is in Ramsey's best interests, if he wishes to hold the North, to marry the heiress to Winterfell. That's how it's done.

That is why, in the books, Ramsey is quick to marry Farya, and Baelish supplies her.

 

So it benefits the Boltons enormously to find a girl they can pass off as Arya, if not Arya herself. They themselves have never met her, despite being some of Ned's most prominent bannermen, and in fact have no idea what she looked like. For them, a vague resemblance to the stories, such as, "they have dark brown hair, grey eyes, and long, lean, wolfish faces," or to Robb Stark, who had none of the above, is good enough. And that kind of thing, as you know from looking at casting and fan art, is wildly  subjective.

 

They are helped in their deception by the fact that there are no photographers, that the Starks did not stand on their balcony every day and wave to people, or hold parties and balls and jousts. When the family were last at the castle Arya was far too young for anyone to be looking at with an eye to marriage, and so no one probably looked at her at all. She was busy doing things like playing with the butcher's kids. Sansa was engaged to Joffrey so young that nobody had had much of a chance to scope her out, and what verbal descriptions circulated of her, were most likely taken with a grain of salt. "Beautiful, with auburn hair and blue eyes" describes Roz, Sansa, Cat, and Ygritte equally well. And unless you had a son her age and rank, you probably didn't even pay attention to the verbal description, and don't even remember which was Sansa, which was Arya, and which was someone else.

 

Try this experiment: Describe the Stark, Lannister, and Baratheon families to someone who hasn't read the books or seen the show. Now, wait a week. Without helping them at all, show them a clip of that first meeting of the two families--stop when dialogue begins. Now wait a day or two and ask them to identify the girls by name, from their current pictures on the series.

 

That's what it would be like for most of these people. Yes, there were lots of people who knew the Starks quite intimately. They died at King's Landing. Theon wiped out the second tier of people who might have known what Arya and Sansa looked like (although this group probably wasn't sure which one was which) and then a third level removed, who knew the girls by name and reputation, was wiped out by the war and the Red Wedding. Next to the Karstarks, (who wouldn't know Sansa if they fell over her) the Boltons are the closest relatives, and they also wouldn't know Sansa from Brienne of Tarth. Those left alive who ever did see the girls are in the same position as those non-fans in my above example. They don't know which is which and they don't really care--it doesn't directly affect them.

 

As for how it benefits Sansa to pretend to be Arya, 1) it immediately makes her lady of Winterfell. 2) She remains hidden from Cersei, and at this point in time that actually is her top priority.

 

I like the idea that they're visiting as emissaries of the Lannisters. That makes sense.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Hecate7

[SeanC]

As for how it benefits Sansa to pretend to be Arya, 1) it immediately makes her lady of Winterfell. 2) She remains hidden from Cersei, and at this point in time that actually is her top priority.

Neither of those is terribly beneficial, seeing as she's married under a false name and any power is merely Bolton power; and she's not in any real danger of discovery from Cersei, seeing as she's in the middle of the Vale, with the backing of powerful lords there.  She's far safer than at Winterfell, where she is literally in the hands of Cersei's allies.

[Hecate7]

Sansa is a female, and as such, has the power she marries. I am generally against people marrying Boltons, but what other point is there in having that monster in the story?

 

I am puzzled that you can in the same breath say that she's literally in the hands of Cersei's allies, which is true, and also state that she's not in any real danger of discovery from Cersei. She is in danger of discovery from Cersei the instant she uses her own name. In fact, we really don't know that the Vale lords haven't already informed on her. She told some of them who she was.

 

I agree that the Vale is safer than Winterfell in any event, because 1) the Vale is impregnable, whereas Winterfell has fallen once and might do it again, and 2) the Vale had some people who sympathized and felt loyal, but Winterfell is, as you say, filled with Cersei's allies, who stand to be rewarded enormously for turning Sansa in. Cersei's reach has been known to extend all the way to the Wall, so I wouldn't write it off as a concern. Tyrion had to leave the Continent to get away from her.

 

Remaining hidden from Cersei is and should be Sansa's top priority, for as long as Cersei remains in power. In fact, as long as Sansa is wanted for regicide, it behooves her to travel incognito, since even Cersei's successors might not find it in their hearts to forgive a regicide who got caught.  I cannot imagine that Baelish is up to any good leaving the Vale and taking her to Winterfell, considering he knows good and well exactly who is in possession and what sort of people they are.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Hecate7

[Hecate7]

Why?  Of all the problems with this potential story, that's really not one of them.  TV!Sansa looks absolutely nothing like TV!Catelyn, apart from hair colour, which she dyed.

 

True. Moreover Roose could not possibly care less about that particular issue.

[Haleth]

Yeah, I forgot she dyed her hair.  Never mind.

 

As the weather gets worse Winterfell will be increasinly cut off from Kings Landing.  Even if Cersei learns that Sansa is there there may be no way she can do anything about it until spring. 

[SeanC]

As the weather gets worse Winterfell will be increasinly cut off from Kings Landing.  Even if Cersei learns that Sansa is there there may be no way she can do anything about it until spring. 

Which is irrelevant, since the castle itself is full of people who want to do her harm.

[mac123x]

I have a problem with the Sansa-poses-as-Arya possibility.  Television is a visual medium, and no matter how much exposition they add explaining that "no one really knows what Arya looks like, we can pass you off as her", a large chunk of the audience just isn't going to buy it simply because they look nothing alike.  It would be immersion-breaking, and I hope that the producers of this show are that lame.

[Hecate7]

I have a problem with the Sansa-poses-as-Arya possibility.  Television is a visual medium, and no matter how much exposition they add explaining that "no one really knows what Arya looks like, we can pass you off as her", a large chunk of the audience just isn't going to buy it simply because they look nothing alike.  It would be immersion-breaking, and I hope that the producers of this show are that lame.

 

Nobody they pass off as Arya is going to look like Arya, but most people who have ever seen Arya are dead. The odds of someone wandering into Winterfell who actually HAS seen Arya (besides Theon) are very remote. And even those who have seen her, would be prepared to believe that she grew. Television is a visual medium but plots turn on someone impersonating someone else all the time, and usually it's not because they look or sound anything like that person.

 

The show is not going to ask the audience to believe Sansa is Arya. It's just going to show that it doesn't matter to these people that she isn't Arya--those who can tell won't care, and those who would care won't be able to tell.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Hecate7

[Advance35]

Well the reviewer goes on to say that he/she is caustiously optimistic about the storyline.   There are a million and one plot threads in this saga so consolidation was going to happen.   He/She says Sansa definitely does NOT come across like a damsel in distress or a victim and very much like LF's co-conspirator.   Its just that they both have underestimated the depravity of the Boltons.

 

In all honesty I'm less worried about Sansa with the Boltons and more worried about her being in the North with the Wall about to come down.

[Skeeter22]

I was incredibly annoyed by that rumored Sansa storyline, but now that more details have come out, I'm not so bothered. It's so ridiculous that I kind of can't wait to see it. It makes absolutely zero sense for any of the characters involved so I'm looking forward to the writers' attempt to justify why any of this would happen.

[Lady S.]

Well the reviewer goes on to say that he/she is caustiously optimistic about the storyline.   There are a million and one plot threads in this saga so consolidation was going to happen.   He/She says Sansa definitely does NOT come across like a damsel in distress or a victim and very much like LF's co-conspirator.   Its just that they both have underestimated the depravity of the Boltons.

It's not like the Boltons advertise their depravity on their banners or anything .... have a feeling I'm going to miss being able to laugh at show Baelish's cartoonishness once Ramsay's involved. Tyrion, the Hound, even Littlefinger, I think I'd rather any of them creep on Sansa than let Ramsay deflower her.

[debi49]

I could not read the Reek chapters in book 5 I was so creeped out by it all. The idea of Sansa anywhere near that maniac is going to have me hyperventilating. Casual viewers (if there are such a thing with GOT...) are going to freak out when they see where this is heading. I mean, RAMSEY CUT OFF THEONS JUNK for G-ds sake!

[Hanahope]

I was wondering how they were changing things so much when it was announced that by the end of 10 episodes, they'd be completely caught up to the books.  That means they are essentially going through/cutting nearly 2 books worth of material in only 10 episodes.  Makes you think that GRRM had a huge amount of filler (which, yeah).  Obviously some plot-lines are being merged (Sansa/LF, Ramsay, and I guess Manderly) which I'm not sure I'll like, though I suppose it makes sense for the show economy.  I'm also a bit sorry to lose the Stoneheart story, since it would have been so great to see/hear/read reactions of non-book readers.  I also thought that plotline was important (to me at least) because you really saw that the Red God was not just tricks of Melisandre or 'super' but not positively magical healing of Thoros/Beric.

 

It will be really interesting to see what happens next season, when the show tells us the basic plots before the book(s) do.

[Dev F]

I'm also a bit sorry to lose the Stoneheart story, since it would have been so great to see/hear/read reactions of non-book readers.  I also thought that plotline was important (to me at least) because you really saw that the Red God was not just tricks of Melisandre or 'super' but not positively magical healing of Thoros/Beric.

 

Honestly, the thing that would bother me most if the TV series jettisoned the Lady Stoneheart storyline is that there are quite a few moments in the early seasons that are clearly designed to foreshadow it, and if it doesn't happen they end up being meaningless blind alleys. Heck, the whole Brotherhood Without Banners storyline becomes a crazy bridge to nowhere unless the producers figure out some other way to reincorporate them into the story.

 

Honestly, how nuts is it to subtly introduce a character like Beric in season 1, drop hints about his mysterious band of outlaws in season 2, make him and his band major recurring characters in season 3, reveal that they can resurrect the dead . . . and then the whole storyline is just forgotten? Even if they suddenly reappear in some kludgy way -- say, Melisandre calls on them for help resurrecting Jon Snow -- it's still weird to have them drop out of the story for two whole seasons.

[Holmbo]

I would be surprised if we don't see bwb again in the show. Right now I'm actually still expecting them Brienne, Pod and Jaime to converge at some point the way out seems set out in the books.

I might change that expectation once Jaime dies in Dorne this season or something but right now I'm still expecting it to happen. The show is doing Frey comeuppance at some point and I don't see them passing on getting jaime and brienne back together with conflicting goals and in danger.

Now if SH is with them I'm not sure. I could really see that going either way. I don't think they need her but i don't think there's been anything that confirms she's cut. We probably won't know for sure until season 6.

Now it could also be that the show actually didn't plan what to do with bwb and they just well have no role in the future. They served some role in character and plot development for Arya and introduced the concept of resurrection. It might be that they have no important part in the end game and could be cut out.

[Advance35]

I keep coming back to the admission that they KNOW how all of this ends and who ends up where, maybe Lady Stoneheart won't do anything eventful, maybe Jaimie and Brienne escape in the books through some "hijink" and maybe she doesn't do anything else noteworthy other than hang Freys, but WW can do that in the show.  GRRM has so many plot threads all of which are enjoyed by some part of the fandom but there is NO WAY he's going to address them all in the books.  Maybe LS is one of these threads.

[BlackberryJam]

The "escaping LSH" bit is always interesting to me. From the books, we know Brienne went to Jaime to ask him to come help her save Sansa from the Hound. Jaime goes off with Brienne. Kevan later tells Cersei that Jaime has been missing for weeks.

 

We don't even know if Jaime and Brienne got to Lady Stoneheart or if they did, if they were the ones captured. For all we know, Jaime and Brienne could have attacked LSH's camp and rescued Pod and Hyle. They could have gotten part way there and saw Pod and Hyle swinging and not gone to LSH at all.  

 

For my money, reading the latest Alayne/Sansa chapter, I think Jaime and Brienne are going to show up at that tourney, probably disguised, and Brienne will enter it and win.  Whatever the deal is with LSH, I don't think she's important for endgame.

 

Also, the importance of Beric and Thoros in the show is Melisandre learning that the Lord of Light helped Thoros bring Beric back. We don't need to see Thoros and Beric again for that to remain important. When Jon gets pin-cushioned, Melisandre can remember Thoros and Beric and bring him back.  

 

However, I do think Brienne will run into Thoros and Beric, but under different circumstances.

[Holmbo]

Now I just picture Gwendoline Christie jousting with a fake beard. :)

[Haleth]

Isn't Beric truly dead now?  Not mostly dead?

[BlackberryJam]

Book Beric is reportedly dead from reviving Catelyn. Show Beric was last killed by the Hound and revived by Thoros. Show Beric was last seen selling Gendry to Melisandre.

Edited April 11, 2015 by BlackberryJam

[Lady S.]

Isn't Beric truly dead now?  Not mostly dead?

This series really is ripe for Princess Bride references, assuming that's what you were doing.

[Haleth]

Inconceivable.

[Meredith Quill]

I don't think that word means what you think it means...

[mjc570]

 

It's not like the Boltons advertise their depravity on their banners or anything .

 

Isn't that exactly what they do?  I find it hard to take a flayed man as anything else

[jjjmoss]

A castlist based on the HBO press release. Doesn't necessarily perfectly correlate with who will get main credits, nor an indication of how much screentime they'll get:
Main series regulars - Tyrion/Jaime/Cersei, Olenna/Margaery, Jon/Arya/Sansa, Littlefinger, Dany
Second tier of returning regulars - Varys, Ellaria, Bronn, Tommen, Sam/Melisandre/Davos/Stannis/Giantsbane, Theon/Roose/Ramsay, Brienne, Missandei/Jorah/Daario
New regulars - High Sparrow, Doran/Areo/Obara/Tyene/Nym/Myrcella/Trystane

 

Margaery was promoted from the second tier to the first tier, joining Olenna who is basically there just cuz of her Emmy history rather than her prominence on the show. Seems to show Margaery's significance to this season, esp given that the actual king (unlike Joffrey last season) is not up there with her.

Edited April 12, 2015 by jjjmoss

[Maximum Taco]

A castlist based on the HBO press release. Doesn't necessarily perfectly correlate with who will get main credits, nor an indication of how much screentime they'll get:

Main series regulars - Tyrion/Jaime/Cersei, Olenna/Margaery, Jon/Arya/Sansa, Littlefinger, Dany

Second tier of returning regulars - Varys, Ellaria, Bronn, Tommen, Sam/Melisandre/Davos/Stannis/Giantsbane, Theon/Roose/Ramsay, Brienne, Missandei/Jorah/Daario

New regulars - High Sparrow, Doran/Areo/Obara/Tyene/Nym/Myrcella/Trystane

 

Margaery was promoted from the second tier to the first tier, joining Olenna who is basically there just cuz of her Emmy history rather than her prominence on the show. Seems to show Margaery's significance to this season, esp given that the actual king (unlike Joffrey last season) is not up there with her.

 

It's so weird not seeing Bran/Isaac Hempstead Wright in the cast list.

 

I miss him already.

 

I hope everyone isn't like "Who's that guy?" when he comes back in season 6.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[LiveenLetLive]

I've read the books, but I've retained almost nothing from them, LOL. Did Mance die in the books? I've read that TV GOT is going to do their own thing for the remainder of the series, so I'm not sure if they are veering off here or what?

[Maximum Taco]

I've read the books, but I've retained almost nothing from them, LOL. Did Mance die in the books? I've read that TV GOT is going to do their own thing for the remainder of the series, so I'm not sure if they are veering off here or what?

 

In the books Rattleshirt is killed in Mance's place, as Melisandre uses a glamour to make Mance look like Rattleshirt and Rattleshirt look like Mance. Then Jon sends Mance (who looks like Rattleshirt) to Winterfell to rescue "Arya"

 

Later Ramsay sends a letter (the Pink Letter) to Jon Snow and says he killed Mance's spearwives and made Mance a cloak from their skins, but he says he has Mance (presumably alive, because a dead man would not need a cloak) in a cage for all the world to see.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[LiveenLetLive]

Phew, OK, thanks. 

[Pete Martell]

And I think the actor that plays Ramsay is awesome.  I've seen other work by him and he can be very magnetic so I can't wait to see and Sansa on screen together from an acting perspective.

 

Iwan Rheon is certainly a wonderful, handsome, charismatic actor, but not for the first time I wonder if that was a bad casting choice for this particular role. Even with the horrible tortures inflicted upon Theon, the true horror doesn't quite come across onscreen once they move from the generic torture porn of season 3, and while I realize part of that is down to their obviously not being able to put Alfie Allen through that type of physical transformation and not wanting to go as far as the books did in presenting desecration and gore, I think a number of things (Iwan's physical beauty and intensity, the strong chemistry between Alfie and Iwan that made certain scenes [especially that whole "do you love me Reek" bath scene] have undertones that probably weren't supposed to be there, the whole odd swashbuckling-style scene with Asha and Ramsay, having Ramsay shown in a consensual sex scene with Myranda) wore away just what a malicious force he was supposed to be.

 

I'm concerned that the show is going to build him up as a "dark" half of Jon, especially if this ultimately leads to Jon facing off against Ramsay, and if they have Sansa in the middle, then we may end up getting a more consensual Ramsay/Sansa in order to show her "dark" side against the "good" side that Jon remembers.

 

It's like one of those horror movies where no matter what door you choose, you fall into the abyss.

 

The choices are:

 

- Sansa is raped and tortured

 

- Sansa isn't raped or tortured and instead she and Ramsay are written as something wicked or wild

 

- Sansa is saved by Littlefinger, which would turn this into an implication that Littlefinger is "good," even though he's a horrible and stupid man himself (to me anyway)

 

- Sansa is saved by Jon, the most traditional route, generally reducing her to a damsel in distress for someone she has little to no relationship with

 

- Sansa is saved by Theon, which would be closest to the books, but even then, I've already seen some fans accusing Theon of only caring about saving Sansa to get an in with the Starks and avoid death, so that means there's a good chance this writing choice will continue to take away the true purpose of Theon's narrative (which is that he really had no reason to save Jeyne, but just did so because it was the right thing to do) while reducing Sansa to a damsel in distress.

 

I realize how cliched the idea of "dark Sansa" was and is, but I liked the idea of her moving beyond waiting and waiting to be saved, and starting to try to save herself.

 

Instead I am starting to feel like she's still waiting to be saved...only now she has had a Hot Topic makeover.