S14.E14: Ouroboros

[gonzosgirrl]

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Take my money now.

Where do I sign the petition?

[tessathereaper]

30 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

See, I LOVE this idea! But I really have my doubts as to whether the writers can pull this off. I hope I'm wrong.

Plus...I don't care about Michael unless he's connected with Dean.  Big Bad Big Schmad, if Jensen's not playing him, I don't give a damn.  So unless we have our Dean going to get Our Michael out of the damn cage to fight AU Michael, this whole thing was pointless.

[ZennyKenny]

2 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

Plus...I don't care about Michael unless he's connected with Dean.  Big Bad Big Schmad, if Jensen's not playing him, I don't give a damn.  So unless we have our Dean going to get Our Michael out of the damn cage to fight AU Michael, this whole thing was pointless.

Yeah but... what if Jack being Michael accidentally gives Jack some personality? 

[Res]

16 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

Yeah but... what if Jack being Michael accidentally gives Jack some personality? 

Still don't care about Jack. Only care about Dean and him being connected to the plot like he's supposed to be according to Billie's books and his right as an actual main character and true Winchester.

[ZennyKenny]

30 minutes ago, Res said:

Still don't care about Jack. Only care about Dean and him being connected to the plot like he's supposed to be according to Billie's books and his right as an actual main character and true Winchester.

I know, I was only joking. I really can't take this show seriously anymore. It's so far removed from its roots that the Winchesters honestly seem out-of-place in it.

[7kstar]

14 hours ago, SueB said:

In short – AUMichael freed himself from Dean’s cage and is STILL plotting his next move.  And we won’t see it coming until the last two episodes of the season. 
- BUT here’s the rub.  If the casual viewer is not suspicious, then the hue and cry of ‘plot twist out of nowhere’ will be proclaimed.  And it could very will STILL piss off more than please viewers.  So, I’m not sure it’s a great idea.  It’s consistent with Dabb’s love of the binge viewer but it’s not great for the casual weekly viewer. So, IF this is all a plot twist, I think it may be an over commitment to their own ‘cleverness’.  And I’m not sure that’s a good thing.

Bottom Line for the TL;DR:  I can see either answer.  BOTH, I suspect, will not play out as well as TPTB would like.   Personally, I’m biased towards the plot twist.  It tracks with the last few seasons.  But I suspect it’s not going to be as grand a conclusion as I would have hoped.

3

Oh, I can see all of the bolded points.  I'm afraid it will fail more than it will succeed except for those that love Jack and Nick,

I can't speak for all the fans I can only speak for me.  When you only really enjoy 3 or 4 eps and most you can leave then it's time to walk.  I can't promise to finish. 

I'm not even upset enough to cry over what they have done to Dean.  I have always agreed with the idea that there will be 3 to 4 great eps and an about the same that are so so and then the yuck ones.  But this season has failed more than it's burned bright.  So since I haven't gotten rid of cable yet, I'll continue to record.  I didn't feel surprised.

So, I'll watch this next one limp to the end but I don't plan on watching on pass 14.  It doesn't mean I won't check in if there is something that grabs my attention, but I don't think I'll make it to the finish line.  It's not my first show I've done this with.  I just miss the excitement I had.

It has sparked an AU fanfic idea but who knows if I'll do it or not. 

I think I'll miss the folks that I had connected with on this site more, but Dean's story won't be more than it is.  The twists aren't working for me.  So if you're excited continue to watch and comment on.  I may be lurking more than I use to...

[juppschmitz]

It makes no sense that Michael left Dean alive and kicking. He knows Dean. He knows that Dean has fought City Hall over and over again and won every. single. time.

I mean, Michael isn't aware that Dabb's at the helm, so he should be afraid of Dean. Very, very afraid.

But, alas, Dabb...

[SueB]

8 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

It makes no sense that Michael left Dean alive and kicking. He knows Dean. He knows that Dean has fought City Hall over and over again and won every. single. time.

I mean, Michael isn't aware that Dabb's at the helm, so he should be afraid of Dean. Very, very afraid.

But, alas, Dabb...

AUMichael WASN'T going to leave them alive.  He toyed briefly with them, then said he was done and looked like he was going to kill them.  That caused Jack to step up.

Which brings us back to:
1) Villain monologuing - yeesh, gets them every time. If he was gonna kill them, he shouldn't have toyed with his food. 
2) Why, again, wasn't Jack incapacitate?  Was this bait to get Jack to engage?
3) I think AUMichael IS afraid of Dean.  And he's either had to kill him or neutralize him.  The episode suggests Michael was going to kill Dean and fell prey to villain monologuing and an unaffected Jack.  But if that was a light show and not AUMichael's actual death, then he may still intend to neutralize him.

As for what 'neutralize' him means - IDK.  He's tried the brute for drowning.  The 'happy groundhog day' plan.  Both failed. And he got trapped after the second.  I'm not sure there IS a method if it's all a function of 'mindscape'.  Maybe some McGuffin he wears, symbol he inscribes, spell he performs would give him an assist -- again IF he is still alive and IF he still intends to take Dean's body.  I could see him pissed enough to WANT to take Dean's body and make Dean aware but helpless.  That's the kind of hate AUMichael has for Dean now.  But, he's been foiled twice.  Going back again would be stupid.  So... there's a real good chance that even if Michael is alive, the next time he shows up (in whatever vessel), he'll kill Dean flat-out.

Spoiler

I keep coming back to "Michael has been busy" inside Dean's head spoilers.  Just the pounding?  Kinda something Dean was already aware of.  Was there something else?  While Dean was unconscious, did he riffle thru the MoL lore in his head?  There's wiggle room there.  I can't say they are going to use it, but if it happens, I'd say it's set up to allow it. 

[Cambion]

Replying to SueB's spoiler so I won't quote it, but that keeps coming to my mind as well.  It's a very intriguing notion.  Serves all involved well and is something I'd love to see happen.  But, from the sounds of what  the more experienced here have said, I'm not gonna get my hopes up.

[juppschmitz]

30 minutes ago, SueB said:

AUMichael WASN'T going to leave them alive.  He toyed briefly with them, then said he was done and looked like he was going to kill them.  That caused Jack to step up.

Well, I meant AS he was leaving Dean's mind. Wouldn't have taken more than a fraction of a second. Narrative wise he should have obliterated Dean there and then. Not hang around for the monologuing.

But, for obvious Doylist reasons they couldn't go with that.

[ILoveReading]

32 minutes ago, SueB said:

I could see him pissed enough to WANT to take Dean's body and make Dean aware but helpless

He had the perfect opportunity to exactly this when he left Dean.  There is no in story excuse that makes sense why he didn't. Especially if he was angry at Dean for ruining his plans.

He discarded Dean like an old shoe.  It sounds more like he just stopped caring about Dean.

[Cambion]

On 3/7/2019 at 10:20 PM, DeeDee79 said:

With all do respect I would find it more satisfying as a long-term fan to see Dean's arc played out on the show in a way that's fitting to the character. Fanfic is fun and entertaining but the writers/showrunners shouldn't screw with the characters so much that we seek another medium to see their storylines meet a dignified end.

Hey DeeDee, I missed replying to this one. Sorry about that.  IA with you 110%, but since we don't get to see these things on the actual show I use fanfiction to chip away at that desire.  I mean, a fan can dream, can't they?

1 minute ago, juppschmitz said:

Well, I meant AS he was leaving Dean's mind. Wouldn't have taken more than a fraction of a second. Narrative wise he should have obliterated Dean there and then. Not hang around for the monologuing.

But, for obvious Doylist reasons they couldn't go with that.

Doylist? (Pretend I know next to nothing about this stuff, because, yeah, that's true.)

[juppschmitz]

9 minutes ago, Cambion said:

Doylist? (Pretend I know next to nothing about this stuff, because, yeah, that's true.)

Watsonian vs. Doylist

It's one of my favourite games figuring out which approach to use in any given (fictional) context.

Another one is to find Watsonian explanation for clearly Doylist circumstances 😄

[SueB]

14 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

Well, I meant AS he was leaving Dean's mind. Wouldn't have taken more than a fraction of a second. Narrative wise he should have obliterated Dean there and then. Not hang around for the monologuing.

But, for obvious Doylist reasons they couldn't go with that.

What is 'Evil monologuing for Doylist reasons" ?  (Did I get the Daily Double?)

The ONLY Watsonian reason I can come up with is that he can't stand the idea of an person getting the better of him so he still wants to crush him emotionally.  Dean appears to be the annoying little snarky 'amoba' that gets under the skin of Cosmis entities.  I find it endearing.  Big Cosmic egos, apparently, can lose their shit over it.  Ref: The Cosmic Entity is unhinged since Cas annoyed it into letting him go. 

A WISE villain (see Crowley) knows better than to underestimate those 'flannel wearing nightmares!'.  I don't count AUMichael as wise. I count him as clever, powerful, and evil. 

ETA: 

1 minute ago, juppschmitz said:

Watsonian vs. Doylist

It's one of my favourite games figuring out which approach to use in any given (fictional) context.

Another one is to find Watsonian explanation for clearly Doylist circumstances 😄

Me too!

Edited March 9, 2019 by SueB
simulposting with juppschmitz

[Cambion]

7 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

He had the perfect opportunity to exactly this when he left Dean.  There is no in story excuse that makes sense why he didn't. Especially if he was angry at Dean for ruining his plans.

He discarded Dean like an old shoe.  It sounds more like he just stopped caring about Dean.

There are some other thoughts above regarding this, but I'm tight on time and too lazy (don't judge me!) to go find them all.  Buuuuuutttt, Michael left Dean because he was annoyed at Dean's "squirming".  Really?  What a badass dick with wings.  I tremble in his presence.  NOT.  Then when he came back, it wasn't long before Dean said, Nope, I'm not gonna take this anymore and put Michael on ice. (Ha!  See what I did there? Okay, I'll stop now.)  Then Micheal spends 99% of his time in the freezer throwing a temper tantrum then Bang! all of a sudden the door pops open. In my headcanon Micheal stands there for a moment with his mouth hanging open then bolts for the door.  Then, realizing that Dean is strong enough to both trap him and keep him contained for a good time, like any bully Mike makes a run for the exit.

In the AU Michael had a badass army of dicks with wings at his back.  In our universe, he had to build his own army, and he has no reason to believe that they are still out there waiting for him, he's been on ice for long enough for his monsters to be defeated, or disband as they did. He has to get out there and ascertain that and see if he still has an army or not.  So, he's gonna make a run for the border from the only real opposition he's ever had: Dean.  So, that's why he didn't attack Dean the moment he got out.  Really, for all he knew at that moment Dean let him out so he could banish or kill him.  

So, works for me that he would run for a new vessel and take a chance on killing Dean the old fashioned physical way. 

8 minutes ago, juppschmitz said:

Watsonian vs. Doylist

It's one of my favourite games figuring out which approach to use in any given (fictional) context.

Another one is to find Watsonian explanation for clearly Doylist circumstances 😄

Ah, very interesting!  Thanks Juppschmitz!

[Dobian]

On 3/7/2019 at 6:26 PM, bettername2come said:

The Gorgon reminded me of a young Freddie Prinze Jr. I find this very weird.

I was also thinking a young Rob Lowe.  Kind of underwhelming end for Michael, but I'm glad Jack killed him.  Sad about Maggie.  Yet another female recurring character bites the dust on this show.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, Cambion said:

In my headcanon Micheal stands there for a moment with his mouth hanging open then bolts for the door.  Then, realizing that Dean is strong enough to both trap him and keep him contained for a good time, like any bully Mike makes a run for the exit.

 I really like this head canon, but Michael still had the upper hand here since Dean was unconscious.  He could have left Dean's brain completely fried.

[Mulva]

My favorite part of the episode was Jack defeating Michael.  He really proved himself to be a true Winchester!  Plus, he's such a sweetheart.  He's really been an asset to the show.

[gonzosgirrl]

So why did Michael's grace end up in Nougat Sue? That's never happened before to my recollection- the grace just explodes into the ether.  So did Jack intentionally harness it for himself? 

[NougatJack]

32 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So why did Michael's grace end up in Nougat Sue? That's never happened before to my recollection- the grace just explodes into the ether.  So did Jack intentionally harness it for himself? 

Yes, he did. After he got sick again he knew the only chance for him to survive is to get some archangel grace. So he had to attack Michael no matter the cost. And he couldn‘t see his family suffering. He did what he had to do. I‘m so proud of him,   he matured so much throughout the last few months. 

This episode was great. I loved that the whole team has been on the case together. And the end was so unexpected and fantastic. The showdown was cool, and Jack‘s wings, oh my Chuck, they are so beautiful, I‘m so very proud of my Nougat Jack.

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, NougatJack said:

Yes, he did. After he got sick again he knew the only chance for him to survive is to get some archangel grace. So he had to attack Michael no matter the cost. And he couldn‘t see his family suffering. He did what he had to do. I‘m so proud of him,   he matured so much throughout the last few months. 

This episode was great. I loved that the whole team has been on the case together. And the end was so unexpected and fantastic. The showdown was cool, and Jack‘s wings, oh my Chuck, they are so beautiful, I‘m so very proud of my Nougat Jack.

Meh. The wings were pretty much an exact replay of Dean last season. The whole "I'm a Winchester" thing is ridiculous fan-service to me. I don't see Jack as anything more than the show trying to replace the naive, cluelessness of early Castiel now that he's getting long in the tooth. It's all just so repetitive and Nougat Sue is so bland and toothless he'll be impossible to take seriously as a big bad, and as is, he is unsustainable if he remains 'good'. Hopefully they banish him to heaven-let him keep the lights on up  there. 

[Bergamot]

On 3/8/2019 at 3:14 AM, BabySpinach said:

So it turns out that it wasn't Jack's woobie illness that was the time-wasting filler; the time-wasting filler was Michael!Dean! Jack needed to get sick and die so that he could get access to soul magic and then kill Michael. If the mytharc shifts to be about his descent into darkness, then this season really will be Jack's story. I can then safely quit, because even though I promised that I would stick by Supernatural till the end, I made no such promise for Nougatnatural.

And though the rest of the reason may indeed shake out like this, I'm still just really confused. If Jack was supposed to kill Michael, why did the writers put in that whole thing about all of Dean's fates changing? If they needed the Malak box to be created (to shove Jack inside?), there are endless ways they could have done that without bringing Billie and her death books into it. 

Why spend two episodes angsting over Dean's potential fate at the bottom of the ocean? Why write Michael threatening to liquefy Dean's consciousness? Why have Dean lock Michael in his head in the first place? And Michael had waited months to repossess him, but then just left because being locked up in a mental pantry was too traumatic to make it worth staying with his True Vessel? As it currently stands, the story's focus has been completely cut off at the knees.

But Dean's death books are my main sticking point. I had the same feeling when I was trying to puzzle out how Kaia's spear could have possibly kicked Michael out of Dean, because the logistics just didn't add up. And this season's midseason finale and return episodes, both of which prominently featured Michael, should be much more important to the mytharc than the 14th. A recurring villain has also NEVER been killed off this early in the season, not Abaddon, not Eve, not even fucking ASMODEUS. This all just feels wrong, and not only in the typical-shitty-writer way we get all the time. 

I'm fully prepared to be completely off the mark. But if I'm not theorizing, then I'm taking this episode at face value, and that would make my head explode. 

Hey, here's an off-the-wall spec! What if the Michael in Billie's books is actually ours, the one in the Cage? Maybe Jack's actions indirectly lead to that outcome. That twist would at least be better than not addressing this plot thread at all.

BabySpinach, I enjoy your theorizing! And I will stick with you for as long as you want to continue analyzing the show, no matter how off-the-wall you get! (Because I agree with you about the prospect of the show turning into "Nougatnatural". Not that I would stop watching the show, but I probably not be interested in talking about it. What would be the point? It is already evident that any discussion by fans of Nougatnatural would only be a vapid reiteration of "Jack is so cute!" "Jack is so sweet!" "I loved how heroic Jack was!" No thanks.)

I agree with you about the story's focus being cut off at the knees, and how it feels wrong. I also am stuck on what Billie told Dean, and how it was completely ignored in this episode. Not like they got around it, but like it never happened.  Billie bringing Dean his death book was an amazing scene that should have been the absolute pivot point of the whole season. The reason it worked so well is that it was an idea that goes right to the heart of what Supernatural was originally about, and that's why I loved it.  It was about a human being facing off with a supernatural being (Death herself!), being confronted with an unalterable and potentially world-ending destiny, and then finding a way to deal with it, no matter what it took. Because that's what it means to be a Winchester.

Instead what you got as a climax to the story was two immensely powerful supernatural creatures fighting each other with beams of glowing light energy, while the all-too-human Winchesters simply watched from the sidelines. Nothing interesting, just another typical superhero battle. If this is all the writers can come up with, then they really don't understand what made the show special to begin with.

[Aeryn13]

It was just boring. Michael pontificated and gave the villain speech, Dean, Sam and Cas were on the ground while the Nougat Sue wasn't affected at all. And Michael seemed to ignore that completely unless there was  full Deus ex machina. Everything about it was lame, anticlimactic and ridiculous, though I do believe it was supposed to be genuine. Like I said, Jack will be joining the fast forward section now for me. 

[7kstar]

15 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Watsonian vs. Doylist

It's one of my favourite games figuring out which approach to use in any given (fictional) context.

Another one is to find Watsonian explanation for clearly Doylist circumstances 😄

I've been involved in several fanfiction genres where the fans felt they needed to course correct and did virtual seasons. However, I had never heard this term before.  So thanks for the education.

I know it did cross my mind that none of the people were killed and that Michael had trapped them in Dean's mind or someone's mind until he could figure out what to do next.  Then Jack killing Michael wouldn't matter but then reality hit.  That would mean, that they are actually planning the season and I just don't see the evidence for that. 

So something out of nowhere most likely is the best bet.   I know some fans will love it, I'm just not invested anymore.  So soon I won't have to worry because the season will be over.  I've been underwhelmed too long. It feels like work to like the ep.  Sure there were moments I liked.  Otherwise, I would have already been gone. 

Dean came as close as he will ever be allowed to say I told you so.

I almost liked the first half.  Jack's solution did look cool but it felt cheap and almost so what?  I'm trying to stay on topic, so I'll quit now.  It's been said and some said it better.

I do believe when you can't spin the positive anymore it is time to go.  I'm afraid I'm almost there.

[catrox14]

8 hours ago, NougatJack said:

9 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yes, he did. After he got sick again he knew the only chance for him to survive is to get some archangel grace. So he had to attack Michael no matter the cost. And he couldn‘t see his family suffering. He did what he had to do. I‘m so proud of him,   he matured so much throughout the last few month

Or is the Lucifer side of Jack coming out and he only did it to get the grace? Why didn't he try to get Michael's grace when they were one on one or was that before he knew about burning off his soul? I mean sure he says he loves the Winchesters but I wonder if being more soulless changed him like it did Sam. Maybe it wasn't 100% only to save thr others. I mean he did have his own personal grudge going back to last season and being tortured. Why did he so proudly announce he was the sone of Lucifer given that the Winchesters loathed him and killed him.

Which makes me think maybe they'll take Jack dark for a hot minute before redeeming him.

[tennisgurl]

So I finally got to see the episode, and my first impressions without reading the comments are..

I love Rowena, she has such a great give and take with the Winchesters. Sam and Rowena were hilarious in the vet, that was some solid shenanigans, it kind of made me wonder what a Sam/Rowena couple would be like. But is she alright now, are they still cool? 

I guess I give the show some credit for having the balls to kill off all the hunters, even Maggie, the only one whos name I actually know, except now it makes their existence even more pointless than it already was, and they were already really freaking pointless! At least we can focus on the actual characters we care about now! I am super excited to see Mary angst about them, given how important they were to her...or it will only get brought up maybe once. Who knows?!

The scene where Cas and Jack talk about being immortal and why their ties to mortals are so important was a really good bit of character work, which we haven't seen from Cas in awhile. Its not something thats been brought up that much (considering everyone has died and come back so many times, they probably have frequent flyer miles to the afterlife) so it was an interesting bit to add in. 

The acting was solid throughout. I even thought the guy playing the monster of the week was pretty good, if maybe going a bit overboard with the camp. Really, I kind of wish we could have had a whole episode with him, instead of just kind of tacking a MoTW into the middle of the Michael stuff. 

Well, that was my good stuff. Less good...

Thats really how Michael is going to go out? Seriously?! After all of that drama, all of that build up, the monster army, Dean being possessed and being ready to die, his whole nihilistic war against creation, and he...is killed after Jack waves some jazz hands at him? I mean, after all that stuff with him and Dean and their whole back and fourth and deals and how personal it got, Dean just sits there for the big moment? He didnt even get to do anything to take Michael out!? I dont hate Jack, but I am really starting to see that Gary Sue stuff that people have complained about. Everyone loves him! He joins the family! He gets super awesome badass powers! He is literally the only being of his kind still around, and might be the biggest badass in the whole universe! He gets like a billion stories while the rest of the cast gets table scraps! I swear, I dont hate the kid, but this is getting old. And now if he really does become the big bad, it will mean just Villain Sue time with extra angst from the guys. 

As for Michael as a character, it just sucks that he goes out this way. I liked his style, and his simple yet complicated plans and goals. And he wasnt Lucifer! I love that he isnt Lucifer. And then after all that with Dean, he just fucks off to someone else right away? Huh? 

[MysteryGuest]

Finally managed to watch the latest episode.  The MOTW was pretty creepy.  If he popped one more eyeball into his mouth, I was going to lose it.  

I honestly don't care that Michael is gone, and I truly hope he's gone for good.  Passing him around from vessel to vessel is boring.  Michael is boring.  Archangels are boring.  I want him gone for good, along with Lucifer, but I know it's too much to hope for.  The archangel as big bad storyline is all these writers can come up with, unfortunately.  

Not real sure what to think about Jack.  Turning him evil now due to Michael's grace would annoy me.  But giving him all of his nephilim grace back causes a problem for the show, so they're going to have to do something.  Unless they send him to Heaven to fix things up there.  

I hate to say that I might actually be reaching the point of no return with this show.  I love the cast and I love Sam and Dean, but the storyline is just boring to me.  I could and would watch the hell out of some good monster hunting stories, spooky lore stories, etc., but I'm finding it harder and harder to muster up any interest in the Michael/Lucifer show.  These writers simply have run out of ideas.  They finally manage to get us at least semi interested in Maggie, and then they kill her off.  As much as I didn't care about the nameless AU hunters, I think the mass killing to get rid of them was a bit much.  I'd have preferred it if they'd allowed them to find a way back to the AU, now that Michael was no longer there, so they could start to put things to rights over there.  Just a total waste of a storyline.

It's funny, because I actually enjoyed the episode, but I just know that the story isn't going to go anywhere interesting.  It's only a matter of time before Lucifer is back, and I really have no interest in that.  I wish I felt differently, because I really do think the last few episodes have been well done.  But I have such little faith in the writers and show runners at this point.  I'd love to be proved wrong.

[Jonesy]

I thought the episode was very good--give it an 8.5.   Liked team free will 2 acting like a great team.  Loved Jack as self-proclaimed Winchester.  It doesn't bother me if Michael and Dean was fine and still the center of the show without him.  Nice convo between Jack and Cas.  Rowena really turning into a good and entertaining ally.  Jack with having his doggy temp measured--lol!   Nice funny touch with Rowena flirting with a puzzled Cas.

[gonzosgirrl]

Since the MOTW seemed to know Dean, and only Dean, by name, are we assuming it was because of Michael? And if that's the case, did he bash his head against the wall because he knew Michael was 'trapped' in there? Because - and I could be wrong here, I tuned out a little - Dean is the only one he got up close and personal with in the fight. The others were flung about hither and yon. I know it doesn't make sense that he'd know about Michael, but neither does him otherwise-inexplicably knowing Dean's name.

2 hours ago, Jakes said:

Loved Jack as self-proclaimed Winchester. 

My problem with this is, he also declared himself Son of Lucifer. IMO, he doesn't get to be both.

[S Cook Productions]

12 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Since the MOTW seemed to know Dean, and only Dean, by name, are we assuming it was because of Michael? And if that's the case, did he bash his head against the wall because he knew Michael was 'trapped' in there? Because - and I could be wrong here, I tuned out a little - Dean is the only one he got up close and personal with in the fight. The others were flung about hither and yon. I know it doesn't make sense that he'd know about Michael, but neither does him otherwise-inexplicably knowing Dean's name.

My problem with this is, he also declared himself Son of Lucifer. IMO, he doesn't get to be both.

Well I would argue that he did get up close and personal with Cas too, since he actually kissed him lol. Ah, Supernatural. 🙂

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, S Cook Productions said:

Well I would argue that he did get up close and personal with Cas too, since he actually kissed him lol. Ah, Supernatural. 🙂

Did he? As part of the fight? I definitely missed that, lol.  I remember him biting Cas to poison him. The point remains though - he only 'knew' Dean and it was left unexplained.

Edited March 11, 2019 by gonzosgirrl

[SueB]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Did he? As part of the fight? I definitely missed that, lol.  I remember him biting Cas to poison him. The point remains though - he only 'knew' Dean and it was left unexplained.

I wonder if he got the memo about Dean when Michael was recruiting monsters. So he knocked him out but didn’t do permanent damage to the ‘vessel’.  

[Mulva]

Well I liked this episode.  It was hilarious seeing Michael's grand plan thwarted by a kid, and the conversation between Cas and Jack was touching.

[ahrtee]

13 minutes ago, Mulva said:

It was hilarious seeing Michael's grand plan thwarted by a kid,

Except he's not a kid.  He's a super-duper-deus-ex-machina-most-powerful-being-in-all-the-multiverses, who happens to be housed in the body of an adorable (to some) kid.  😊

[Myrelle]

Sorry. Double post.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Myrelle
Double post

[Myrelle]

Just now, Myrelle said:

It's kind of funny, but I was just thinking earlier this morning that I found that conversation between Cas and Jack to be lacking in something or in some way. I think that the acting on the parts of both actors should have been tinged with/conveyed a bit more sadness for it to have resonated more/better with me.

I honestly just couldn't/didn't *feel* it to the extent that I think I should have  considering the actual dialogue that was put into use there.

I haven't watched again and won't because of the almost always predictable bait and switch writing that I've come to despise from these writers, not to mention the use of the deux ex machina Nougat Sue that rendered so much of the rest of this season moot, but I remember feeling that way about that particular conversation even on just the one viewing.

[Myrelle]

Sorry about quoting myself. 

Messing up right and left here.😖

[rue721]

I think Jack is meant to be drier (less "soulful") than usual because he's been burning off parts of his soul. And Cas is always kind of dry, I guess because he doesn't have a soul at all.

I think part of the point of the conversation was meant to emphasize that neither of them are human, not even Jack.

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

I think Jack is meant to be drier (less "soulful") than usual because he's been burning off parts of his soul. And Cas is always kind of dry, I guess because he doesn't have a soul at all.

I think part of the point of the conversation was meant to emphasize that neither of them are human, not even Jack.

Maybe, but it still didn't work for me in even that way. *shrugs*

[ILoveReading]

I thought the conversation kind of made Cas look like a hypocrite because he's lecturing Jack about accepting mortality when he sided with Sam over Dean wanting to sacrifice himself to save the world from Michael.

[gonzosgirrl]

47 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Except he's not a kid.  He's a super-duper-deus-ex-machina-most-powerful-being-in-all-the-multiverses, who happens to be housed in the body of an adorable (to some) kid.  😊

Exactly. They seem to want to play all sides of the box here. Is he a two year old in an adult body? Is he a god? Is he the Son of Satan? Is he the Woobie Nougat? They are trying, and failing IMO, to cover all the bases. It's with characters like this that the lack of leadership control, or even a show bible, shows the worst. They are all writing their own versions and they just don't jive.

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

I thought the conversation kind of made Cas look like a hypocrite because he's lecturing Jack about accepting mortality when he sided with Sam over Dean wanting to sacrifice himself to save the world from Michael.

Word! So very much hypocrisy in this season and this is another good example.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I thought the conversation kind of made Cas look like a hypocrite because he's lecturing Jack about accepting mortality when he sided with Sam over Dean wanting to sacrifice himself to save the world from Michael.

Heh.

This too. For sure.

[Myrelle]

3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Exactly. They seem to want to play all sides of the box here. Is he a two year old in an adult body? Is he a god? Is he the Son of Satan? Is he the Woobie Nougat? They are trying, and failing IMO, to cover all the bases. It's with characters like this that the lack of leadership control, or even a show bible, shows the worst. They are all writing their own versions and they just don't jive.

Word! So very much hypocrisy in this season and this is another good example.

Bragging about being the son of Lucifer?-and even if it was to just Michael-not impressive, dude. Nope.-and it should be a red flag to the brothers, IMO.

[SueB]

**warning ... long-ass post ... bolded to give you the gist for the TL;DR**

TFW 2.0 characterization via dialog in Ouroboros

I immediately re-watched 14.14 because I was so enchanted by the delights of Rowena & the boys.  But there was much more than just the entertaining red-headed witch.  The dialog was so spot on and revealed a lot about our heroes – and where their head is at.

Talking about/to Dean:
- Sam: “He’s Dean.  And Dean is Dean.  He’s fine.” Sam REALLY does believe in the invincibility of Dean. Sam NEEDS Dean to be fine and invokes Dean’s name almost like a superhero.  
-  Cas: “What you’re doing.  Just sitting here having a cup of coffee is a Herculean feat. I can’t imagine the willpower it’s take to keep Michael imprison.” Again, Dean is the stuff of legends here.
- Rowena tells everyone about the anti-venom and then looks only at Dean to say... ”and then, off with his head.” Even Rowena knows when it comes to the kill, count on Dean.
- Noah (gorgon): “I see you Dean…” (the note) and “Hello Dean, I wish I could say it’s nice to meet you in person.” Dean is an enemy to be feared. He gets specifically called out, by name.  Although Noah defeats him like a standard human, it’s Dean he thinks is going to kill him.  I suspect it’s because he kept seeing a dark future for himself and since he couldn’t see his executioner (Jack), he assumed it was Dean.
-  The panic Sam/Cas express when Dean is injured. Cas theorizing maybe the gorgon did something to Dean.  And Rowena says: “What? Smashed his head into the wall?”  See, Rowena knows Dean’s the most effective hunter but he’s still human.  She hasn’t presumed he’s as superhuman as Sam & Cas have let themselves believe.  
- Jack: “I hate seeing him like that. But, he’s going to be okay, right?  I mean, it’s Dean. He… it was a fight. It was just a fight.” Even Jack’s “it’s Dean.” It says he sees Dean larger than life.  We go on to how he can’t stand to see any of them hurt.  But it should be noted, Dean’s injury is deeply disturbing.
- Dean: “This is my fault. I let my guard down! This is my fault!” Dean’s been terrified of this moment from the beginning. WARNED people of this moment.  And still, when it happens, Dean holds himself to a higher standard.  Because he’s Dean.  It’s kind of his move. And his anger: “I told you! I told you to let me take that coffin ride to the bottom of the ocean!” is justified.  Because he let Sam’s ‘believe in us’ speech convince him to hold on a little while longer.
- Michael: “If only Dean had used that coffin when he had the chance.” Putting it ALL on Dean, because that hurts Dean the most.
Sum up of dialog about/to Dean:  Although Cas later gives the moving ‘they’re just human’ speech; Sam, Cas & Jack see Dean larger than life.  Dean knows better (although he holds himself to a higher standard). Rowena knows better (although she knows he’s most likely to kill the MOTW).  Michael knows he met his match in willpower and moves on.  Deciding to kill his perfect vessel immediately rather than risk tangling again.  So what are they telling us:  that Dean is an extraordinary person, performing legendary feats – but he’s still a human. 

Talking about/to Sam:
- Rowena:  “But using dangerous, mysterious magic, regardless of the cost, that’s a very on-brand me thing to do.” Sam thanks her. She says: “Of course, until recently I was the villain.” Rowena may see Dean as the one to take out the MOTW, but it’s Sam that she hold accountable for the use of magic.  It’s Sam that she sees in ‘charge’ of the decision regarding whatever dark magic Jack used. 
- Rowena (again): “There are other ways of doing things Samuel.” She has so much fun with Sam.  If she’s going to hang out with one of them, it’s Sam. 
-  Maggie: “Sam!” Not much dialog but the point was that Maggie runs to Sam to save her life.  Not just “help” but “Sam”.  Sam is to the AUHunters what Dean is to TFW – larger than life.
Sum up of dialog about/to Sam: He’s the one responsible for coming up with the plan. He’s the one who is taking the gamble with both Jack & Dean to keep the family together. He’s the one the AU Hunters looked to for safety.  This was NOT a good episode for Sam (Jack burns off a lot of soul, Dean loses Michael, the AU Hunters die).  

Talking about/to Cas:
- Rowena: “Hello Castiel.” She says in a flirty little voice.  She does love to confuse him.
- Dean: “Okay.” And then proceeds to tell Cas the unvarnished truth of the nightmare in his head.  Despite all the maturation w/ his relationship with Sam, Cas is STILL Dean’s ‘go to’ guy when it comes to confession of how he’s feeling.  Both Sam and Cas push, but Cas seems to be the one more likely to get Dean to spill his story.
- Dean (continuing): “Look, before the kid gets back. I know I agreed to give you guys time,” Cas interjects they WILL find a solution. Dean presses: “Okay, but if – if you don’t – we still have Plan B.” Cas hedges. Dean: “Coffin. Ocean. Done.” Dean believes that if anyone is going to follow through on this, it’s Cas.  Cas with the cosmic perspective.  So he’s the guy he looks into the eyes and reminds him that THIS is the deal.  More time but Plan B is the backup. 
- Jack: “I’m fine.” Lying to Cas, because he’s a mini-Dean and says ‘I’m fine.’  It’s the Winchester way.
- Jack (again): “What does it mean? (snake/chicken story)” Jack asks variations of this question throughout the episode to every character.  But with Cas, he’s looking for the BIG answers. The cosmic being answers. 
Sum up of dialog about/to Cas: He’s the one that’s confided in. He’s the go-to for comfort and wisdom.  He’s still both the AV Squad and the wise cosmic entity. And he’s barely holding onto the ones he loves.

Talking about/to Jack:
- Rowena: “Darling boy, everything means something.” Jack asks a TON of questions this episode, of every character.  It’s a nice way of them both imparting their wisdom to him personally and also to get some exposition.  Rowena is rewarding Jack for his curiosity here.
- Dean: “Kid’s not wrong.” After Jack declares the MOTW a monster even if human.  Dean has done a LOT of shaping of Jack’s moral compass. Intended or not, it’s Dean who Jack has imprinted on for morality, self-sacrifice and daily life skills.
- Rowena, looking right at Jack: “I have a plan.”  The sheer delight on Jack’s face is adorable.  He’s thrilled to be a part of Rowena’s plan. She, of course, takes the opportunity to scope out Jack – from magic perspective.
- Rowena pestering Sam about how Jack is better.  Later busting Sam for using dark magic and she’s officially worried now. “What did you do to that boy?” 
- Noah (gorgon) with the ‘seeing eyes’ eye flare: “But I see you now.” And tells the snake/chicken story to Jack, claiming he doesn’t know if he’s the chicken (the one sacrificing) or the snake (the one that is greedy).*
- Cas: “The point is that they were here at all.” Cas LITERALLY gives Jack the meaning of life as a cosmic entity speech.  It’s an excellent speech. And Jack, who is still young, finds their fate kinda awful.  
- Jack: “It’s worth the cost.” (burning off his soul) “I’m not a child. I am the son of Lucifer. I’m a Hunter. I am a Winchester!” Welp, he’s not wrong.  Proving that he’s a Winchester by burning off his soul to take out Michael.
Sum up of dialog about/to Jack: Jack spends the episode being a sponge for knowledge.  He’s collecting info at every step. Taking in everything that people are saying, declaring his own perspective on the big picture – and it’s a Winchester perspective.

*Answer IMO:  Jack with soul is the chicken, Jack with no soul would be the snake.  Since he’s burning off his soul, that’s why Noah is confused.

Bottom Line for the TL; DR: In this episode, Dean was painted as someone TFW sees as larger than life, doing Herculean feats. They are panicked about losing him. Sam is seen as responsible (per Rowena) for Jack’s entanglement with the soul sucking magic. Cas is seen as the cosmic entity with the big picture who deeply loves his found family but trying to keep perspective. Jack is seen as the ingénu (male spelling) whose personality is the embodiment of TFW 1.0 where ‘self-sacrifice’ is the number one ‘go-to’ move.  And in this way, the chicken becomes the snake.  

Note;  Yes, this characterization fits more with the plot being just the plot we saw versus plot twist.  Still undecided for sure. 

Edited March 12, 2019 by SueB

[Res]

4 hours ago, Myrelle said:

Bragging about being the son of Lucifer?-and even if it was to just Michael-not impressive, dude. Nope.-and it should be a red flag to the brothers, IMO.

Just another example of the show trying to be everything at once and failing miserably, much like the title of this episode, the snake eating itself. It also symbolizes Dabb's reign where HIS "Supernatural" is "eating"/"killing" much of the previous years of Supernatural canon we've come to love. How fitting is the title of this episode now?

[S Cook Productions]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

**warning ... long-ass post ... bolded to give you the gist for the TL;DR**

TFW 2.0 characterization via dialog in Ouroboros

I immediately re-watched 14.14 because I was so enchanted by the delights of Rowena & the boys.  But there was much more than just the entertaining red-headed witch.  The dialog was so spot on and revealed a lot about our heroes – and where their head is at.

Talking about/to Dean:
- Sam: “He’s Dean.  And Dean is Dean.  He’s fine.” Sam REALLY does believe in the invincibility of Dean. Sam NEEDS Dean to be fine and invokes Dean’s name almost like a superhero.  
-  Cas: “What you’re doing.  Just sitting here having a cup of coffee is a Herculean feat. I can’t imagine the willpower it’s take to keep Michael imprison.” Again, Dean is the stuff of legends here.
- Rowena tells everyone about the anti-venom and then looks only at Dean to say... ”and then, off with his head.” Even Rowena knows when it comes to the kill, count on Dean.
- Noah (gorgon): “I see you Dean…” (the note) and “Hello Dean, I wish I could say it’s nice to meet you in person.” Dean is an enemy to be feared. He gets specifically called out, by name.  Although Noah defeats him like a standard human, it’s Dean he thinks is going to kill him.  I suspect it’s because he kept seeing a dark future for himself and since he couldn’t see his executioner (Jack), he assumed it was Dean.
-  The panic Sam/Cas express when Dean is injured. Cas theorizing maybe the gorgon did something to Dean.  And Rowena says: “What? Smashed his head into the wall?”  See, Rowena knows Dean’s the most effective hunter but he’s still human.  She hasn’t presumed he’s as superhuman as Sam & Cas have let themselves believe.  
- Jack: “I hate seeing him like that. But, he’s going to be okay, right?  I mean, it’s Dean. He… it was a fight. It was just a fight.” Even Jack’s “it’s Dean.” It says he sees Dean larger than life.  We go on to how he can’t stand to see any of them hurt.  But it should be noted, Dean’s injury is deeply disturbing.
- Dean: “This is my fault. I let my guard down! This is my fault!” Dean’s been terrified of this moment from the beginning. WARNED people of this moment.  And still, when it happens, Dean holds himself to a higher standard.  Because he’s Dean.  It’s kind of his move. And his anger: “I told you! I told you to let me take that coffin ride to the bottom of the ocean!” is justified.  Because he let Sam’s ‘believe in us’ speech convince him to hold on a little while longer.
- Michael: “If only Dean had used that coffin when he had the chance.” Putting it ALL on Dean, because that hurts Dean the most.
Sum up of dialog about/to Dean:  Although Cas later gives the moving ‘they’re just human’ speech; Sam, Cas & Jack see Dean larger than life.  Dean knows better (although he holds himself to a higher standard). Rowena knows better (although she knows he’s most likely to kill the MOTW).  Michael knows he met his match in willpower and moves on.  Deciding to kill his perfect vessel immediately rather than risk tangling again.  So what are they telling us:  that Dean is an extraordinary person, performing legendary feats – but he’s still a human. 

Talking about/to Sam:
- Rowena:  “But using dangerous, mysterious magic, regardless of the cost, that’s a very on-brand me thing to do.” Sam thanks her. She says: “Of course, until recently I was the villain.” Rowena may see Dean as the one to take out the MOTW, but it’s Sam that she hold accountable for the use of magic.  It’s Sam that she sees in ‘charge’ of the decision regarding whatever dark magic Jack used. 
- Rowena (again): “There are other ways of doing things Samuel.” She has so much fun with Sam.  If she’s going to hang out with one of them, it’s Sam. 
-  Maggie: “Sam!” Not much dialog but the point was that Maggie runs to Sam to save her life.  Not just “help” but “Sam”.  Sam is to the AUHunters what Dean is to TFW – larger than life.
Sum up of dialog about/to Sam: He’s the one responsible for coming up with the plan. He’s the one who is taking the gamble with both Jack & Dean to keep the family together. He’s the one the AU Hunters looked to for safety.  This was NOT a good episode for Sam (Jack burns off a lot of soul, Dean loses Michael, the AU Hunters die).  

Talking about/to Cas:
- Rowena: “Hello Castiel.” She says in a flirty little voice.  She does love to confuse him.
- Dean: “Okay.” And then proceeds to tell Cas the unvarnished truth of the nightmare in his head.  Despite all the maturation w/ his relationship with Sam, Cas is STILL Dean’s ‘go to’ guy when it comes to confession of how he’s feeling.  Both Sam and Cas push, but Cas seems to be the one more likely to get Dean to spill his story.
- Dean (continuing): “Look, before the kid gets back. I know I agreed to give you guys time,” Cas interjects they WILL find a solution. Dean presses: “Okay, but if – if you don’t – we still have Plan B.” Cas hedges. Dean: “Coffin. Ocean. Done.” Dean believes that if anyone is going to follow through on this, it’s Cas.  Cas with the cosmic perspective.  So he’s the guy he looks into the eyes and reminds him that THIS is the deal.  More time but Plan B is the backup. 
- Jack: “I’m fine.” Lying to Cas, because he’s a mini-Dean and says ‘I’m fine.’  It’s the Winchester way.
- Jack (again): “What does it mean? (snake/chicken story)” Jack asks variations of this question throughout the episode to every character.  But with Cas, he’s looking for the BIG answers. The cosmic being answers. 
Sum up of dialog about/to Cas: He’s the one that’s confided in. He’s the go-to for comfort and wisdom.  He’s still both the AV Squad and the wise cosmic entity. And he’s barely holding onto the ones he loves.

Talking about/to Jack:
- Rowena: “Darling boy, everything means something.” Jack asks a TON of questions this episode, of every character.  It’s a nice way of them both imparting their wisdom to him personally and also to get some exposition.  Rowena is rewarding Jack for his curiosity here.
- Dean: “Kid’s not wrong.” After Jack declares the MOTW a monster even if human.  Dean has done a LOT of shaping of Jack’s moral compass. Intended or not, it’s Dean who Jack has imprinted on for morality, self-sacrifice and daily life skills.
- Rowena, looking right at Jack: “I have a plan.”  The sheer delight on Jack’s face is adorable.  He’s thrilled to be a part of Rowena’s plan. She, of course, takes the opportunity to scope out Jack – from magic perspective.
- Rowena pestering Sam about how Jack is better.  Later busting Sam for using dark magic and she’s officially worried now. “What did you do to that boy?” 
- Noah (gorgon) with the ‘seeing eyes’ eye flare: “But I see you now.” And tells the snake/chicken story to Jack, claiming he doesn’t know if he’s the chicken (the one sacrificing) or the snake (the one that is greedy).*
- Cas: “The point is that they were here at all.” Cas LITERALLY gives Jack the meaning of life as a cosmic entity speech.  It’s an excellent speech. And Jack, who is still young, finds their fate kinda awful.  
- Jack: “It’s worth the cost.” (burning off his soul) “I’m not a child. I am the son of Lucifer. I’m a Hunter. I am a Winchester!” Welp, he’s not wrong.  Proving that he’s a Winchester by burning off his soul to take out Michael.
Sum up of dialog about/to Jack: Jack spends the episode being a sponge for knowledge.  He’s collecting info at every step. Taking in everything that people are saying, declaring his own perspective on the big picture – and it’s a Winchester perspective.

*Answer IMO:  Jack with soul is the chicken, Jack with no soul would be the snake.  Since he’s burning off his soul, that’s why Noah is confused.

Bottom Line for the TL; DR: In this episode, Dean was painted as someone TFW sees as larger than life, doing Herculean feats. They are panicked about losing him. Sam is seen as responsible (per Rowena) for Jack’s entanglement with the soul sucking magic. Cas is seen as the cosmic entity with the big picture who deeply loves his found family but trying to keep perspective. Jack is seen as the ingénu (male spelling) whose personality is the embodiment of TFW 1.0 where ‘self-sacrifice’ is the number one ‘go-to’ move.  And in this way, the chicken becomes the snake.  

Note;  Yes, this characterization fits more with the plot being just the plot we saw versus plot twist.  Still undecided for sure. 

OmG this! ITA. YMMV, of course. 🙂

[gonzosgirrl]

I was re-watching the beginning for a quote and I noticed that when TFW 2.0 entered the scene with the first body, Castiel went over and placed his healing touch on the guy's forehead. The guy with his chest cracked open and organs missing, he tries to heal? And then seemed disappointed when nothing happened. Kinda sucks for the security guard that got knocked into a wall and died (irrevocably, lol).

[Bergamot]

On 3/12/2019 at 12:57 PM, Myrelle said:

It's kind of funny, but I was just thinking earlier this morning that I found that conversation between Cas and Jack to be lacking in something or in some way. I think that the acting on the parts of both actors should have been tinged with/conveyed a bit more sadness for it to have resonated more/better with me.

I honestly just couldn't/didn't *feel* it to the extent that I think I should have  considering the actual dialogue that was put into use there.

None of the father/son chit-chats between Cas and Jack have worked for me, or made me feel anything, and this one was no exception. More round-eyed, ponderous sincerity from Cas, more of the same unhappy, confused teenager schtick from Jack. If the point is to emphasize how non-human Cas and Jack are, why did their conversation, as it always does, mirror in the most pedestrian way possible a talk between a human father and his human teenage son? Yeah, I know, for the "feels".

Anyway, this one fell especially flat for me, maybe because of the hypocrisy from Cas that others have pointed out (that's right, Cas, losing your loved ones is part of living, remember?) but also because I found what he said pretty patronizing toward humans. Oh, those poor non-cosmic beings! They are so special and lovely, but they don't last very long, so we just have to be happy we can enjoy the fragile little things while they are around. Thanks for the condescending attitude, Cas.

[gonzosgirrl]

On 3/12/2019 at 1:33 PM, ILoveReading said:

I thought the conversation kind of made Cas look like a hypocrite because he's lecturing Jack about accepting mortality when he sided with Sam over Dean wanting to sacrifice himself to save the world from Michael.

Not to mention calling Dean's mission to save the world suicidal, after having just traded his own eternal life for one kid. So yeah, sit down Castiel.

[The Companion]

On 3/7/2019 at 8:25 PM, Katy M said:

The plan didn't make a whole lot of sense, though.  How did they know the vet would leave Jack alone in the exam room.  One would think she would have done her thing and then brought the dog back out.  Rowena probably could have just turned herself invisible, right?  But, yeah, it was cute.

I mean, what vet leaves a dog all alone unsecured? An apparently ill dog on a big table.  Also, the medications were hard to get because they were controlled substances, so they are of course in an unlocked glass cabinet. What? ALSO, I thought we all agreed that the writers weren't allowed near dogs anymore. 😂

On 3/7/2019 at 8:37 PM, Advance35 said:

 

I don't think I've ever seen Sam have chemistry with ANY of his love interest, it's so typical, he would have AWESOME chemistry with Rowena.  Them pretending to be a married couple, fretting over the dog, Rowena picking at Sam about how Jack was saved.   They make it into the hall of fame of Supernatural dynamics for me.  Right up there with Dean/Castiel, Dean/Crowley, Crowley/Castiel.

Rowena's confidence that Michael couldn't kill her because fate has decreed it will be Sam.  Then saying "It makes dinner parties a little awkward but...." lol.

 

I don't ride many ships. I am just not a huge shipper. However, it has come to my attention that this ship is known as Samwitch and that nearly melts my cold dead heart enough to root for them. 

When she became Michael I thought: "shit. There it is. Sam is going to kill her trying to get to Michael. Dammit, I love her." 10 second later: "oh, nevermind. Well, that's anticlimactic."

On 3/7/2019 at 8:53 PM, BabySpinach said:

 

ETA: And another thing! Dean holding Michael in his head served NO PURPOSE. Nothing was moved forward, nothing was accomplished, nothing was learned. Holy shitballs, this is BAAADDDD.

That's the theme of the season, yes? 

On 3/7/2019 at 9:56 PM, DeeDee79 said:

Just another fake out. Just like Eve when Cas turned out to be the big bad in season 6 and Abaddon when Metatron turned out to be the big bad in season 9. This season's big bad will more than likely be Lucifer who will reemerge before the end of the season.

Ugh. Someone please spoil me and promise me Lucifer gets killed and MP finally goes away. Please? Guys? Anyone?

On 3/8/2019 at 8:46 AM, rue721 said:

Yeah, Dean's freakout over Michael being gone was the best moment in the episode, IMO. Heart-breaking.

Second best was when Rowena scolded Sam for Jack's soul magic situation, said it sounded more like something she would do, did a weird little hair-flip and was like, "and until very recently, I was a villain."

I loved that line. 

Well, I hated this episode so much. Opinions clearly vary on this but I thought the gorgon actor was terrible. He was so over the top. It just didn't interest me (though, as always, kudos to the props team for some great grossout effects). 

Then, what, head injuries are suddenly a problem for these guys (I kid). But, seriously, they throw away the storyline (which I didn't even like, but stiiiill) with the world's most anticlimactic fight of all time. I mean, the gorgon and Michael lasted about the same amount of time. Look, the writers wanted to zig instead of zag. Pull a big fakeout. The problem is that they don't understand how to.do that. You should be saying: "woah, all those pieces fit in a new way." Not: "wait, what the hell? That's it?" I don't mind Jack as much as most people do. I actually kind of like them adding a less cynical character. But I agree with others that they forgot to give him a personality. They also forgot to build the foundation for the Winchester line. Or do pretty much anything to make us care. Whoops.

I can't say I am surprised they wasted the Michael storyline for a third time. I believe I even called that. Still, to just have Jack suck him up like cosmic soup? What a waste.

Speaking of a waste, they really couldn't think of on interesting way to use the AU characters? There was so much they could have explored.