S01.E17: Goodbye

[chitowngirl]

How could Jon meet Barbara (and then Delilah) at the airport? After 9/11, you couldn’t get past security without a boarding pass. Delilah was going somewhere, so she would have one. 

[smartymarty]

On 3/1/2019 at 7:54 PM, tennisgurl said:

John and Delilah actually had some nice chemistry

Come on -- they even made commented about how the award spelled his name wrong when they spelled it with an H. It's Jon, not John. (Just teasing you).

On 3/2/2019 at 12:57 AM, Dani said:

He takes the time to record a video to Barbara but doesn’t record one for his family.

This bothered me very much too. His letter to Delilah was typed, not handwritten, to boot. 

On 3/2/2019 at 7:33 AM, alexvillage said:

I am tired of the use of 9/11 in shows.

Yeah, we rolled our eyes too. Come on, show. You could have just had him in a car accident that Jon survived. And while I wasn't in an airport on 9/11 (though was supposed to fly later that day), I recall a friend telling me that when he was in LaGuardia waiting for a flight and another plane went down in Long Island Sound, the airport shut all TVs down immediately. I have trouble believing that Logan airport let people in the airport see that another plane had crashed.

eta: I am now convinced that one set of writers wrote the Pilot and another set wrote the rest of the season. The second set might not have even watched the Pilot (seriously). When Gary (and Maggie?) went to Barbara Nelson's house and asked for Barbara Morgan, why wouldn't she or Mitch say "oh yes, that's me/her, that's my/her maiden name." Neither of them knew Gary or Maggie to have any reason to hide from them.

Nor was Barbara hiding from them! In the Pilot, she went to the funeral, Second Set of Writers! She sat right behind Delilah. She told Eddie that his eulogy was nice. Had we seen her go through a receiving line, we can imagine her introducing herself to Delilah as an old college friend of Jon's. Not hiding! But from the Pilot on, she doesn't want anyone to know who she is. Why is that? Because the Second Set of Writers thought it would be neat to have TWO "the baby wasn't his" story lines? The Delilah and Eddie storyline was to make us think that was why Jon killed himself, but it was really Barbara/Patrick?

The Pilot writers set up Jon's big I Committed Suicide Over It mystery as him fathering a child with his friend's girlfriend. This would all be revealed once Delilah saw the life insurance policy he left for Barbara's son, his son. Mystery solved, proceed with rest of the season (or have that revealed at the end of the season -- I'm flexible). Instead, the Second Set of Writers mangled this all by having Barbara suddenly hide, Ashley hide the papers, Jon tape a heartfelt apology to Barbara but neglect his family with Delilah. Instead of just a baby out of wedlock, he get that the friend dies (and not a mere accident or heart attack, but 9/11), and rather than marry Jon, the girlfriend married a fireman. Jon got back at her by quickly marrying some French chick he met at an airport bar, who he pretends to love while having only two children 5 years apart (bad sex life?), and keeping the old college apartment where his (first) son was conceived, all to the extent that it bankrupts him and, in turn, the family he didn't really like after all (hence them only getting a typed letter without mention of Sophie or Danny, much less explaining Barbara and Patrick). It was all a ruse, viewers of the Second Set of Writers' version! Aside from getting Gary through chemotherapy (just an excuse to put up a painting by his one true love), he wasn't that great a friend. Just a big spender with big words but no true heart. Hope we liked this version. Sure tricked us with the whole "Delilah is pregnant with Eddie's baby thing." Heck, at least we got a much better Katherine out of it.

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by smartymarty
after I thought further about the episode

[chitowngirl]

When the second plane hit the Tower, nobody knew what was occurring yet. There was just a news story at the end of the morning news shows that there was a fire at the WTC, possibly because of a plane crashing into it. They were thinking small aircraft.  They were showing the fire when the second plane hit on live TV. Terrorism and shutting down TVs weren’t In the playbook.

Edited March 3, 2019 by chitowngirl

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

I have trouble believing that Logan airport let people in the airport see that another plane had crashed.

That part was actually true. Seth MacFarlane missed the same flight and has talked about watching the new coverage from Logan. 

[smartymarty]

21 minutes ago, Dani said:

That part was actually true.

I was risky surmising about this. I was in a car in Florida, driving from a conference to, at first, the Tampa airport where I had a noon flight. Ended up driving for two days to get back to NJ. So I missed lots of coverage.

26 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

Terrorism and shutting down TVs weren’t In the playbook.

When the plane went down in LI Sound, the airports didn't know whether it was terrorism or plane failure. They just didn't want subsequent passengers to know about it. On 9/11, other flights took off until the FAA realized terrorism and grounded all flights. Some planes going from A to B had to land at C instead.

[HazelEyes4325]

On 3/1/2019 at 10:30 AM, LucyEth said:

I love the Katherine/Eddie getting back together storyline but not sure if it will happen.  Didn't he tell Katherine he was in love with Delilah, and now he has to tell her that Delilah's baby is his, hard to come back from those two things.  Also, once Katherine knows, not sure how long it will be before the rest of group will need to know including Sophie and Danny who I am sure will not be very happy with Mama D.  I wonder how Delilah will feel when she finds out Eddie is trying to reconcile with Katherine?

 

If I remember correctly, Eddie never actually told Katherine he was in love with Delilah.  She asked him if he was and, when he didn't immediately answer, she slapped him.  So, he didn't say he loved her and didn't say he didn't love her.

As for how Delilah will react, I think it will be one of two things.  Or, should I say, I can think of two conceivable outcomes but I wouldn't put it by Nash to come up with something absurd.  Anyway, option one is that the show just sort of "forgets" that Eddie and Delilah had an affair.  Or they just decide that everyone is completely over the affair and its ramifications and move on.  This is obviously not realistic , but it would be typical for this show.

Option 2 would be to have Delilah go into full-blown manipulative narcissist mode (more so than she has been so far) and try to insert herself into their relationship in order to stop the reconciliation.  This would be realistic but I think atypical for the show.

[debraran]

Yes, Fogleman has the tight outline with a little leeway.  You never know what might come up. He said fans had good ideas but he stuck with what he had envisioned. Nash, loves the fans and is really on twitter more than someone else in the news it seems.  I forgot the other reference, I think it was the album Maggie got, but someone noticed one of the trophies in the apartment had Jon spelled John. Not a big deal even if I saw it since I've been Deborah so many times and I'm Debra even when I tell them. It was a mistake on the crews part but he had Delilah say the part about how Jon said they'd "really know his name one day" when he made his mark.  I have a weird feeling he is feeling out the paternity of PJ too. Dave's son was fine, but now he says "he's Barbara's son"  Coy but also unnerving. I guess I like someone with a lot of talent to show us his work, not have us steer him.

I also don't think 6 months after the worst tragedy in America, they allowed anyone to leave cupcakes, bags, flowers, etc in the airport. Strict was definitely the word then.

I know Maggie/Gary is very popular but I am glad she brought up the codependency/savior aspect. Does he love her or is she a female Jon? Is it healthy she wanted to die so young without trying again but a guy, (even though Gary is perfect to some) was what changed her mind? It's not the most solid ground but hopefully they will show the work they need to do. She also was, as stated by many here, pretty far along in her cancer recurrence and although TV cancer is different, I suppose it makes it easy to bring it back when they please. They were very vague in what she had to keep options open I'm sure.

Edited March 3, 2019 by debraran

[break21]

I've noticed a lot of people are upset that Jon didn't make a video for his family before he died.  I think he did and it will be addressed in Season 2.  If would be pretty easy to have Delilah talk to the kids and tell them their father made them a video but she wanted some time to pass before showing it to them.  Or, she could say to the kids, remember the video your Dad  made for you and cut to the video.

[debraran]

20 minutes ago, break21 said:

I've noticed a lot of people are upset that Jon didn't make a video for his family before he died.  I think he did and it will be addressed in Season 2.  If would be pretty easy to have Delilah talk to the kids and tell them their father made them a video but she wanted some time to pass before showing it to them.  Or, she could say to the kids, remember the video your Dad  made for you and cut to the video.

I was one of them but I realize it's hard when you are closer to them. Why a video for Barbara though, I was thinking initially if was because she had issues after some accident (or who knows?) and it was easier. I don't think after 7 months he did anything for the kids but Ron Livingston did say when asked about being in season 2 or later in season 1, "I'll be in flashbacks and videos, things like that" I think he has no idea what Nash is thinking of and he did have another show. I would love that but where are they? Not behind picture, maybe on office computer?

Edited March 3, 2019 by debraran

[break21]

24 minutes ago, debraran said:

I was one of them but I realize it's hard when you are closer to them. Why a video for Barbara though, I was thinking initially if was because she had issues after some accident (or who knows?) and it was easier. I don't think after 7 months he did anything for the kids but Ron Livingston did say when asked about being in season 2 or later in season 1, "I'll be in flashbacks and videos, things like that" I think he has no idea what Nash is thinking of and he did have another show. I would love that but where are they? Not behind picture, maybe on office computer?

I don't know where they would be, but I think is the type of show that will what is has to do, no matter how crazy, to get the result they want.  Nash says he listens to the fans, so if the fans want a video of Jon to his family, he'll figure out some way for it to happen.

I saw Ron Livingston on Kimmel last month.   He said he films his other show, "Loudermilk", Monday through Friday and films "A Million Little Things" on Saturday.  I'd expect they'd use him the same in Season 2 as Season 1, as his availability will still be limited.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, debraran said:

I was one of them but I realize it's hard when you are closer to them. Why a video for Barbara though, I was thinking initially if was because she had issues after some accident (or who knows?) and it was easier. I don't think after 7 months he did anything for the kids but Ron Livingston did say when asked about being in season 2 or later in season 1, "I'll be in flashbacks and videos, things like that" I think he has no idea what Nash is thinking of and he did have another show. I would love that but where are they? Not behind picture, maybe on office computer?

I do have a problem with the lack of a message for the kids but I this point I’d rather they leave it as it is. No matter how they address it is going to feel like yet another adjustment made after the fact. It this point I feel the show needs to move past Jon’s suicide. 

[tennisgurl]

To me, connecting Jons suicide to 9/11 is kind of like adding sexual abuse to Regina's backstory. Its a dark tragic thing that many people in the audience have strong feelings about, so they probably thought that would easily get said emotional reaction. To me, if you want to use a subject that sensitive, that truly affected and traumatized so many people, you have to REALLY commit to that story, and tossing it out as an "OMG" plot just seems in rather bad taste. I mean, they could get more into it later, and I hope if they do they treat the topic with the sensitivity it deserves, but it seems like it will go the way of Regina's sexual abuse backstory. Drama and tears in one episode, coming out of nowhere, and never mentioned again. Makes it come off like its a checklist of Very Special Episode issues than a really dramatic story.

I am pretty convinced that the show meant for Eddie and Delilah were supposed to get together and for it to be this tragic romance, but they underestimated how many people thought that these two were assholes for cheating on their spouses and were about to blow up both their families and their friend group, and not tragic romantic heroes, and they saw the bad reviews on their romance, freaked out, and backtracked. Maybe they still get together later, but it probably wont happen for awhile now.

Its like they added the son maybe not knowing who the dad was just to make the secret connection between him and Rome more dramatic, but otherwise its just like "oh, your my bio dads college friends friend. Small world! Whats for dinner..." Its so tenuous, like a super dramatic version of "I am your brothers cousins nephews former roommate..."

Edited March 4, 2019 by tennisgurl

[Seelouis]

It bothers me that in a previous episode Jon said his big regret was buying the bottle of wine.  So he would rather have died on that plane? Never have met Delilah and had Sophie and Danny?  

[OpalNightstream]

I haven’t read all the posts so not sure if I’m the only one wondering why Delilah would think it would be safe to enter a strangers home who not only tricked her way into her own home, but also clearly has an belligerent husband with anger issues. Plus Women have a greater change of being murdered when pregnant. Barbera Morgan’s husband was a scary dude. No way would I have entered that house. At the very least she should have asked to chat outside. 

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, Seelouis said:

It bothers me that in a previous episode Jon said his big regret was buying the bottle of wine.  So he would rather have died on that plane? Never have met Delilah and had Sophie and Danny?  

True. It seems really strange that buying the bottle of wine is the one thing he would change. Seems like deciding not to go to the conference would be a better change to make. 

That’s actually one of the reasons I think 9/11 was not the original plan. That and the fact that deciding to buy a bottle of wine in an airport gift shop is a really dumb reason to miss your flight. We do have wine in California. 

[HazelEyes4325]

20 minutes ago, Dani said:

That’s actually one of the reasons I think 9/11 was not the original plan. That and the fact that deciding to buy a bottle of wine in an airport gift shop is a really dumb reason to miss your flight. We do have wine in California. 

 

Well, the original plan was for the season to end after 13 episodes, and that was the episode with Jeri and the real estate sale so, um, yeah...I think 9/11 was just sort of thrown in there. 

Which makes it that much worse.

[iwasish]

The thing that bothered me most... the hockey game in the airport. No way would something like that happen and not be stopped by security. Too much chance for injury to spectators. 7th game or not. 

Edited March 4, 2019 by iwasish

[OpalNightstream]

8 hours ago, smartymarty said:

while having only two children 5 years apart (bad sex life?), a

I was with you until this part. ONLY 2 children = bad sex life? Maybe if this was pre-birth control days. Being the parent of only 2 children myself, I can testify 2 is plenty for most people these days. 

[Gothish520]

On 3/3/2019 at 9:17 AM, Clanstarling said:

I beg to differ. 9/11 wasn't just planes crashing into towers - it was also being under attack, and endless news coverage which heightened the sense of fear and anger. The combination of grief, anger, and fear becomes something larger in the personal reaction, imo.

If it wasn't larger in the personal sense, there wouldn't be people objecting to its use in this episode. I, myself, don't have a problem with it being used. It is a pivotal part of our history, and we all have a 9/11 experience we still remember, even if some of us don't notice the date nearly 20 years later.

Was it used well? *shrugs* About as well as anything else on this show. But Maggie, being the voice of the showrunners, explicitly said it wasn't the ONE thing, just ANOTHER thing. A big rock among other big rocks.

Exactly, well-said. 

I will NEVER forget that day and will never not notice the date. Even seeing 9:11 in digital time gives me pause. 

 

21 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

Well, the original plan was for the season to end after 13 episodes, and that was the episode with Jeri and the real estate sale so, um, yeah...I think 9/11 was just sort of thrown in there. 

Which makes it that much worse.

Showrunners change direction all the time. As long as I'm being entertained, I sit back and enjoy the ride. I don't read interviews with showrunners, because I do not want to be spoiled and frankly, I really don't care what they have to say. I care about what's on the screen. And if I stop being entertained by what's on the screen, I cut bait and move on.

[alexvillage]

14 hours ago, debraran said:

Nash, loves the fans and is really on twitter more than someone else in the news it seems

I don't know him, only heard about him here, but it looks like he loves to be loved by the fans.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, iwasish said:

The thing that bothered me most... the hockey game in the airport. No way would something like that happen and not be stopped by security. Too much chance for injury to spectators. 7th game or not. 

True enough. I was more focused on how annoyed I'd be if I were waiting for my plane.

[iwasish]

I don’t know if this point has been made .... Jon says in his video that meeting Delilah gave him a reason to go on, kept him living.  I wonder if it crossed Eddie or Delilah’s self absorbed minds, that Jon uncovering their affair, a massive betrayal of friendship and marriage vows, on top of his financial crisis, may very well have pushed him over the edge, (no pun intended). I would think two normal people might feel some type of guilt and that it might make continuing their relationship difficult. 

[cardigirl]

1 hour ago, iwasish said:

I don’t know if this point has been made .... Jon says in his video that meeting Delilah gave him a reason to go on, kept him living.  I wonder if it crossed Eddie or Delilah’s self absorbed minds, that Jon uncovering their affair, a massive betrayal of friendship and marriage vows, on top of his financial crisis, may very well have pushed him over the edge, (no pun intended). I would think two normal people might feel some type of guilt and that it might make continuing their relationship difficult. 

I agree with this, and on top of the sense of betrayal Jon felt, he also felt a sense of failure in being able to be the man Delilah needed. He was always trying to 'save' people and couldn't be who she needed anymore.  Or so he thought. Suicide can result from some very complex thinking patterns. 

As for the show turning away from Delilah and Eddie's relationship, that may have been the plan all along. Affairs often peter out when they are discovered. In the light of day, they lose the luster of the 'secretivenss' that makes them so exciting, Jon's suicide tarnished this relationship far more than it might have been tarnished had they both left their spouses and tried to start anew together. Sure their friends would have chosen sides, and for a while, they may have been outcasts from the group, but that might have steeled their resolve that the affair was 'fixing' whatever was wrong in their lives and sent them off looking for something else. Instead, the tragedy of Jon's death forced them to look beyond themselves and maybe see things a bit more clearly?

I hope that the second season can give an honest look at what it takes to try and put a marriage back together after infidelity. I don't think it is impossible for a marriage to survive infidelity but it requires real work, and real forgiveness, and real remorse. 

Edited March 4, 2019 by cardigirl

[iwasish]

27 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

I agree with this, and on top of the sense of betrayal Jon felt, he also felt a sense of failure in being able to be the man Delilah needed. He was always trying to 'save' people and couldn't be who she needed anymore.  Or so he thought. Suicide can result from some very complex thinking patterns. 

As for the show turning away from Delilah and Eddie's relationship, that may have been the plan all along. Affairs often peter out when they are discovered. In the light of day, they lose the luster of the 'secretivenss' that makes them so exciting, Jon's suicide tarnished this relationship far more than it might have been tarnished had they both left their spouses and tried to start anew together. Sure their friends would have chosen sides, and for a while, they may have been outcasts from the group, but that might have steeled their resolve that the affair was 'fixing' whatever was wrong in their lives and sent them off looking for something else. Instead, the tragedy of Jon's death forced them to look beyond themselves and maybe see things a bit more clearly?

I hope that the second season can give an honest look at what it takes to try and put a marriage back together after infidelity. I don't think it is impossible for a marriage to survive infidelity but it requires real work, and real forgiveness, and real remorse. 

And how does the spouse deal with the living proof of the affair, walking and talking,  and everyone else thinking that it’s the deceased friend’s child, while she knows it’s her husband’s?

And how long can “Uncle” Eddie go on keeping the secret ? 

[cardigirl]

15 minutes ago, iwasish said:

And how does the spouse deal with the living proof of the affair, walking and talking,  and everyone else thinking that it’s the deceased friend’s child, while she knows it’s her husband’s?

And how long can “Uncle” Eddie go on keeping the secret ? 

Well, that would be part of the exploration of how a marriage could survive infidelity or even IF it could.  A child resulting from that affair adds to the difficulty the betrayed spouse would have in forgiving the straying partner. What can one person accept, live with, and forgive?  How far does real love stretch? 

Just like two people who love each other so much, but one wants children of his own, wants to raise children, and his wife does not want to raise children. How will they resolve that issue? Will they be able to resolve it in a way that allows them to remain together? Maybe, maybe not. 

It could be really interesting.

[Winston Wolfe]

On 3/3/2019 at 3:44 PM, chitowngirl said:

When the second plane hit the Tower, nobody knew what was occurring yet. There was just a news story at the end of the morning news shows that there was a fire at the WTC, possibly because of a plane crashing into it. They were thinking small aircraft.  They were showing the fire when the second plane hit on live TV. Terrorism and shutting down TVs weren’t In the playbook.

Actually, as my former GF and her co-workers were fleeing Downtown Manhattan that day, she correctly (and almost immediately) surmised that we were under attack when the second plane hit.  She and her co-workers walked across the Williamsburg Bridge into Brooklyn - a questionable strategy to me because I expected al-Qaeda to start taking out the Bridges and Tunnels next, effectively isolating Manhattan.  It really was a nightmare day from Hell.  Re: television coverage: I seem to be the only one who remembers (or mis-remembers?) this, but I swear I recall all the TV stations (at least in NYC) going off-line for an hour around 8pm that night.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Winston Wolfe

[Gothish520]

33 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Well, that would be part of the exploration of how a marriage could survive infidelity or even IF it could.  A child resulting from that affair adds to the difficulty the betrayed spouse would have in forgiving the straying partner. What can one person accept, live with, and forgive?  How far does real love stretch? 

Just like two people who love each other so much, but one wants children of his own, wants to raise children, and his wife does not want to raise children. How will they resolve that issue? Will they be able to resolve it in a way that allows them to remain together? Maybe, maybe not. 

It could be really interesting.

 Something as big as whether or not to have children should be discussed and agreed upon before getting married. If someone changes their mind after the fact, that is a really tough situation, but if the relationship ends it would definitely be on that person's shoulders. 

Rome's behavior really rubs me the wrong way. I knew from the time I was 17 that I did not want children, and my husband knew exactly how I felt before we got married. If he ever started pressuring me to have kids, I would have been livid.

[cardigirl]

20 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

 Something as big as whether or not to have children should be discussed and agreed upon before getting married. If someone changes their mind after the fact, that is a really tough situation, but if the relationship ends it would definitely be on that person's shoulders. 

Rome's behavior really rubs me the wrong way. I knew from the time I was 17 that I did not want children, and my husband knew exactly how I felt before we got married. If he ever started pressuring me to have kids, I would have been livid.

Yes, and it often is discussed and decided on before getting married. But, and this is big, people change. What they want at age 25, 30, 35, can change. And then it becomes something that partners, because they love one another, are bound to explore because one of them feels differently now than they did at the time they got married. 

I don't know that Rome was pressuring Regina.  I think his timing could have been better, for sure. She's not wrong for choosing not to want children.  However, he's not wrong for starting to think he might want children.  How they navigate that BIG difference is going to be interesting to me.

[Lady Calypso]

10 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

Yes, and it often is discussed and decided on before getting married. But, and this is big, people change. What they want at age 25, 30, 35, can change. And then it becomes something that partners, because they love one another, are bound to explore because one of them feels differently now than they did at the time they got married. 

I don't know that Rome was pressuring Regina.  I think his timing could have been better, for sure. She's not wrong for choosing not to want children.  However, he's not wrong for starting to think he might want children.  How they navigate that BIG difference is going to be interesting to me.

I don't blame Rome for changing his mind and wanting kids. I think he always was willing for kids but pushed that thought away when Regina was insistent on no kids. But with her revelation that she has thought about kids, and after Rome's interaction with PJ last episode, I think Rome assumed that the door was open for them to discuss kids. But I do think he was being pushy. Once she revealed that she's thought about kids and how it wasn't the right time, he used that as an opportunity to push the idea forward more. 

The thing is that Rome is still depressed and hasn't really worked through his depression enough where he's at a stage for a huge change in lifestyle. He's been dealing with it, sure, but he's not at the point where I think he's ready for another big change. He's only just started to find stability, and I think Regina is right in that they need more time before the discussion can even happen. Rome needs to work through his own issues and having a kid isn't going to make things better or make him happier.

Unfortunately for me, I'm seeing a Gary/Maggie 2.0 situation, where he pushes and she resists for a while before giving in. Except with Gary/Maggie, they actually wrote that storyline well in terms of making it HER decision, rather than his. I'm not convinced that it'll turn out as well here, but they've already opened the door a crack to Regina wanting children in a season or two. Her admitting that she thought about kids is a step up from her not wanting kids ever. Her saying that she didn't want kids because it wasn't the right time is a step forward from her not wanting kids because she simply doesn't want them. 

That's why I'm expecting Regina to have a change of heart at some point. I'm hoping not, but the door's cracked open now. 

[iwasish]

If I were Regina I would tell Rome that any discussion of children is off the table until he’s been on meds and seeing a therapist consistently for a specified time period. That when he is stable mentally and they are in a comfortable place financially, they can make a decision together.  No sense in bringing in a child when just months ago he was suicidal.

Edited March 4, 2019 by iwasish

[HazelEyes4325]

4 hours ago, cardigirl said:

As for the show turning away from Delilah and Eddie's relationship, that may have been the plan all along. Affairs often peter out when they are discovered. In the light of day, they lose the luster of the 'secretivenss' that makes them so exciting, Jon's suicide tarnished this relationship far more than it might have been tarnished had they both left their spouses and tried to start anew together. Sure their friends would have chosen sides, and for a while, they may have been outcasts from the group, but that might have steeled their resolve that the affair was 'fixing' whatever was wrong in their lives and sent them off looking for something else. Instead, the tragedy of Jon's death forced them to look beyond themselves and maybe see things a bit more clearly?

I hope that the second season can give an honest look at what it takes to try and put a marriage back together after infidelity. I don't think it is impossible for a marriage to survive infidelity but it requires real work, and real forgiveness, and real remorse. 

1

I don't know if the long term plan was to move away from Delilah and Eddie, but I doubt it because it seems like the show did an abrupt 180 right at about the time the first episode aired and the shows that turned around were being written.  I realize I may be cynical on this, but that is the magic that is me. (haha!).  In the pre-premiere press, they referred to Eddie as being the "one who has to figure things out" and I do hope that is the case, wherever that leads him.  I do think that Delilah and Eddie are off the table, or maybe that is just hoping on my part, but I'm not entirely sure that Katherine and Eddie is what we'll get, at least not right away (I do still think they are endgame, just by how eager Nash is to satisfy social media opinions).  Whatever they give us, though, I hope that they take the time to do it well--which is what I wish for every character on this show and it is something that has not happened in this first season.

As for your second paragraph that I quoted, I agree with you.  Seeing Katherine and Eddie do the hard work is actually something I'd like to watch.  It would require real growth from both of them and both actors are more than up to the challenge (I agree with whoever said it earlier in this thread that Grace Park and David Giuntoli play their roles far better than their roles are written.  With one, maybe two, exceptions I think that can be said for this whole cast).  

[BTBAM310]

Did anyone else notice how much makeup Ron Livingston was wearing to make him look younger during the 9/11 scenes? I usually wouldn't notice, but it was so overdone.

I didn't mind the 9/11 stuff involved in the story, but the "We Will Never Forget" screencap at the end was really weird.

[smartymarty]

17 hours ago, OpalNightstream said:

I can testify 2 is plenty for most people these days. 

I meant to emphasize the five year span between the kids. Usually when people want kids, they have them closer together.

On another note, if all four guys were playing hockey together in the airport, then that means that all four had a hockey stick. So why was it such a big deal to give Jon's to (was it) Eddie?

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

I meant to emphasize the five year span between the kids. Usually when people want kids, they have them closer together.

They’re not five years apart. When the show started Sophie was 15 and Danny was 12. Going by the driving episode Sophie may be 16 now but they are at most 4 years apart. 

[HazelEyes4325]

48 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

I meant to emphasize the five year span between the kids. Usually when people want kids, they have them closer together.
 

2

Not necessarily.  I know a lot of people who waited 3-5 years for a second or subsequent child because the wanted the older child in school at least part-time when they had an infant at home.  And, as someone whose kids are 20 months apart, I can attest to the fact that having kids closer together is a lot of work!  

I went back in the thread to see where this line of conversation originated and didn't see it.  I'm assuming this was something about Jon and Delilah's marriage.  I don't think the existence of only Sophie and Danny and their ages is indicative of anything, honestly.  Well, except for the presence of birth control which plays into another storyline.

[Guest]

On 3/3/2019 at 12:36 PM, smartymarty said:

Nor was Barbara hiding from them! In the Pilot, she went to the funeral, Second Set of Writers! She sat right behind Delilah. She told Eddie that his eulogy was nice. Had we seen her go through a receiving line, we can imagine her introducing herself to Delilah as an old college friend of Jon's. Not hiding! But from the Pilot on, she doesn't want anyone to know who she is. Why is that? Because the Second Set of Writers thought it would be neat to have TWO "the baby wasn't his" story lines? The Delilah and Eddie storyline was to make us think that was why Jon killed himself, but it was really Barbara/Patrick?

That wasn’t Barbara in the pilot. It was Constance Zimmer who ended up being the councilwoman. She was a deliberate red herring but she was never supposed to be Barbara. 

I do think that the story changed but both the pilot and finale were written by the show runner. 

Edited March 5, 2019 by Guest

[iwasish]

4 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

I don't know if the long term plan was to move away from Delilah and Eddie, but I doubt it because it seems like the show did an abrupt 180 right at about the time the first episode aired and the shows that turned around were being written.  I realize I may be cynical on this, but that is the magic that is me. (haha!).  In the pre-premiere press, they referred to Eddie as being the "one who has to figure things out" and I do hope that is the case, wherever that leads him.  I do think that Delilah and Eddie are off the table, or maybe that is just hoping on my part, but I'm not entirely sure that Katherine and Eddie is what we'll get, at least not right away (I do still think they are endgame, just by how eager Nash is to satisfy social media opinions).  Whatever they give us, though, I hope that they take the time to do it well--which is what I wish for every character on this show and it is something that has not happened in this first season.

As for your second paragraph that I quoted, I agree with you.  Seeing Katherine and Eddie do the hard work is actually something I'd like to watch.  It would require real growth from both of them and both actors are more than up to the challenge (I agree with whoever said it earlier in this thread that Grace Park and David Giuntoli play their roles far better than their roles are written.  With one, maybe two, exceptions I think that can be said for this whole cast).  

If Eddie/Katherine is an endgame, I think they  have to reverse course and have the baby actually be Jon’s. Putting a marriage back together after an affair is difficult enough, the issue of a child resulting from the affair would be too much for this type of show. 

 

1 hour ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

Not necessarily.  I know a lot of people who waited 3-5 years for a second or subsequent child because the wanted the older child in school at least part-time when they had an infant at home.  And, as someone whose kids are 20 months apart, I can attest to the fact that having kids closer together is a lot of work!  

I went back in the thread to see where this line of conversation originated and didn't see it.  I'm assuming this was something about Jon and Delilah's marriage.  I don't think the existence of only Sophie and Danny and their ages is indicative of anything, honestly.  Well, except for the presence of birth control which plays into another storyline.

The baby arriving “early” opens  the door to interesting possibilities. 

[HazelEyes4325]

2 minutes ago, iwasish said:

The baby arriving “early” opens  the door to interesting possibilities. 

Yes, but if the baby is 4 weeks early, that is actually only 1 week until full-term.  Both of my children were born at 37 weeks for no reason other than that's when they came and it was all fine.  Also, OB's are pretty good at determining how far along their patients are and if Delilah was off in her dates, that would have been discovered at her first or second OB appt.

[ams1001]

20 hours ago, Dani said:

True. It seems really strange that buying the bottle of wine is the one thing he would change. Seems like deciding not to go to the conference would be a better change to make. 

That’s actually one of the reasons I think 9/11 was not the original plan. That and the fact that deciding to buy a bottle of wine in an airport gift shop is a really dumb reason to miss your flight. We do have wine in California. 

Would he have been allowed to bring the wine bottle on the plane, even pre-9/11? It's not like he'd have time to pack it properly.

They have wine in California?! Do they hide in a valley somewhere so no one knows about it? 😉 

[seacliffsal]

1 hour ago, smartymarty said:

I meant to emphasize the five year span between the kids. Usually when people want kids, they have them closer together.

There are lots of reasons for a five year gap.  My sister and I are five years apart because our mother had miscarriages.

[HazelEyes4325]

11 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

Would he have been allowed to bring the wine bottle on the plane, even pre-9/11? It's not like he'd have time to pack it properly.

They have wine in California?! Do they hide in a valley somewhere so no one knows about it? 😉 

Yes, he would have.  Pre-9/11, I frequently brought wine in my carry-on.  Even now, you can bring it on if you purchase it after going through security.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, smartymarty said:

I meant to emphasize the five year span between the kids. Usually when people want kids, they have them closer together.

Ours were 4.5 years apart because of a miscarriage and trouble conceiving afterwards. 4.5 years turned out to be a perfect span for us.

16 minutes ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

Yes, but if the baby is 4 weeks early, that is actually only 1 week until full-term.  Both of my children were born at 37 weeks for no reason other than that's when they came and it was all fine.  Also, OB's are pretty good at determining how far along their patients are and if Delilah was off in her dates, that would have been discovered at her first or second OB appt.

Mine were born at 36 weeks, and both were fine.

[debraran]

37 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Ours were 4.5 years apart because of a miscarriage and trouble conceiving afterwards. 4.5 years turned out to be a perfect span for us.

Mine were born at 36 weeks, and both were fine.

My twins were 36 weeks, 4.6 and 5.13 and went home in 2 days, no issues. Nothing is set in stone with pregnancies. I feel anything though with babies has been done SO many times, it just can't be fresh. The adultery angle has been used and I feel, since Nash does listen, he is curtailing a lot of Eddie and D and trying out the reconciliation. He could have made her have a miscarriage but there must be some angle he wants. Babies though are never shown, not great for most stories and since Sophie and Danny are background, I imagine the baby will be even more.

I wonder too, re Jon seeing them together vs just suspecting, made it easier for him to leave. Not that it was the main reason, but just was one less thing to worry about.  I also think Ashley seeing them together in that ticket photo she didn't show Jon made her resent Delilah more.  She has this great guy and look at what she is doing while he works kind of thing. Just wonder if that was part of her bad behavior. I'm sure it will come out later.

[HazelEyes4325]

23 minutes ago, debraran said:

Babies though are never shown, not great for most stories and since Sophie and Danny are background, I imagine the baby will be even more.

1

As I said before, if a show can't handle the kids they have appropriately, it has no business bringing in a baby.

24 minutes ago, debraran said:

I wonder too, re Jon seeing them together vs just suspecting, made it easier for him to leave. Not that it was the main reason, but just was one less thing to worry about.  I also think Ashley seeing them together in that ticket photo she didn't show Jon made her resent Delilah more.  She has this great guy and look at what she is doing while he works kind of thing. Just wonder if that was part of her bad behavior. I'm sure it will come out later.

2

I hadn't thought about it, but the Ashley angle really doesn't make sense, does it?  If this were on paper (or in a different show), I think we would see some resentment or hostility from Ashley towards Delilah, as Ashley did know about the affair and was obviously fond of Jon, not to mention she seemed to see herself as his protector in a way.  Plus, it seemed that Ashley was part of the Dixon family.  Yet, we didn't see any of that here.  It could have been bad writing or bad acting or I don't know what else, but it doesn't add up.

[LuvMyShows]

On 3/3/2019 at 9:34 PM, tennisgurl said:

To me, connecting Jons suicide to 9/11 is kind of like adding sexual abuse to Regina's backstory. Its a dark tragic thing that many people in the audience have strong feelings about, so they probably thought that would easily get said emotional reaction. To me, if you want to use a subject that sensitive, that truly affected and traumatized so many people, you have to REALLY commit to that story, and tossing it out as an "OMG" plot just seems in rather bad taste. I mean, they could get more into it later, and I hope if they do they treat the topic with the sensitivity it deserves, but it seems like it will go the way of Regina's sexual abuse backstory. Drama and tears in one episode, coming out of nowhere, and never mentioned again. Makes it come off like its a checklist of Very Special Episode issues than a really dramatic story.

This soooo much!

[debraran]

8 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

As I said before, if a show can't handle the kids they have appropriately, it has no business bringing in a baby.

I hadn't thought about it, but the Ashley angle really doesn't make sense, does it?  If this were on paper (or in a different show), I think we would see some resentment or hostility from Ashley towards Delilah, as Ashley did know about the affair and was obviously fond of Jon, not to mention she seemed to see herself as his protector in a way.  Plus, it seemed that Ashley was part of the Dixon family.  Yet, we didn't see any of that here.  It could have been bad writing or bad acting or I don't know what else, but it doesn't add up.

I could but not if she stays away too long. If she changed a letter (but it might have been Nash has noted before) or kept something, it might have been out of anger. I agree with you, it was muted and maybe she thought in bad taste, but why did Nash show Ashley seeing Eddie and D? Why that plot device. Look how close he came to knowing, but then we know he did know? It was cemented later, but a loose plot device right now. Even if it showed Ashley alone thinking about it but nothing.

Why are we ever surprised? lol  I don't ever want to be on a live chat with Nash,but I might like one with the writers. 😉

Edited March 5, 2019 by debraran

[smartymarty]

14 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

There are lots of reasons for a five year gap.  My sister and I are five years apart because our mother had miscarriages.

Okay, first, I've been corrected that it's only a three year span. Second, I apologize for not being clear that I don't suspect that everyone who has two children five years apart are not having much sex. I meant it about Jon and Delilah. We know D is quite fertile, getting pregnant in her 40s. We also know she is terrible about birth control. She and Jon got married after a shorter-than-most dating period. And they were not having much sex and/or were not connecting in the last few years (hence, Eddie). So the fact that she and Jon only had two children could be reflective of a bad sex life. The opposite -- that everyone with these conditions has a bad sex life -- is not what I am trying to say.

[alexvillage]

On 3/4/2019 at 10:41 AM, cardigirl said:

Suicide can result from some very complex thinking patterns. 

Yes, and one problem with the writing is that they don't know how to write about depression, or don't want to get into the complexities. 

1 hour ago, smartymarty said:

Second, I apologize for not being clear that I don't suspect that everyone who has two children five years apart are not having much sex. I meant it about Jon and Delilah

I understood what you meant the you first posted it and I think that speculating about characters in this show, what might have happened, is futile if Nash will just ry to please all the fans and be loved by them. But I get the drive to speculate since the writing was so inconsistent and flawed, despite the theme of the show being interesting, imo.

[ramble]

Well that was a let down. A season long build up to that? Yawn. I started watching this show because of James Roday, David Guintoli and Grace Park, once she was added. They aren’t strong enough reasons to bring me back for a second season. I can not stand Delilah and Mggie annoys me greatly. Gary is only okay in teeny tiny doses. I only tolerate Eddie when he’s with Katherine. Rome and Regina were the strong ones for me but it looks like the plan is to screw with them. Poor writing and mainly unlikable characters with the attempted emotional manipulation of throwing in things like child sexual abuse and 9/11 as after thoughts? No thank you. There are about a million little reasons for me to cancel this. 

[iwasish]

18 hours ago, HazelEyes4325 said:

Yes, but if the baby is 4 weeks early, that is actually only 1 week until full-term.  Both of my children were born at 37 weeks for no reason other than that's when they came and it was all fine.  Also, OB's are pretty good at determining how far along their patients are and if Delilah was off in her dates, that would have been discovered at her first or second OB appt.

Just because she hasn’t  mentioned any change in due date doesn’t mean she wasn’t told. The way this show seems to play fast and loose with the story line and facts it wouldn’t shock me if it turns out Delilah now knows it’s Jon’s and just failed to tell Eddie. It doesn’t seem like they even have much contact anymore. All that passion fizzled out pretty quickly. Despite Jon’s plea  to “ love each other”