S14.E12: Prophet and Loss

[catrox14]

ETA:  I had to laugh at Nick not recognizing his dead wife.  I mean she doesn't look at all the same...so I can't fault him for that LOL.  But go the fuck away, Nick.  It's a stupid plot line that needs to die.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

So Dean's been talked back off the ledge, at least for a little while. 

What ledge though?  Dean is making a calculated choice to sacrifice his life to save the world ...AGAIN.  Why is that  ledge worthy decision given the parameters Billie gave him. Saying it's the ledge sounds like you think Dean wants to die. He clearly doesn't. 

[tessathereaper]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Probably gonna be a big unpopular opinion, but that was a disjointed mess IMO.

I loved the opening scene with Dean and I honestly don't remember Dean's face EVER looking like that before. It was beautiful and awful at the same time.  I enjoyed most of the acting between Dean, Sam and Cas.  But that's about it.

I just am so fucking tired of the 100% incorrect assumption/presumption/narrative being put forth via Sam and Cas that Dean is committing suicide. He made the first sacrifice in s13 to save his loved ones, and THE universe from Lucifer which is being continually ignored to promote this, "Always Keep Fighting" message.  Yeah, I see that here 100%. And it's misplaced. This implies that Dean WANTS to die and no longer wants to live.  This isn't the case. I think that was more or less resolved last season. It's pretty clear he's scared just like he was when he was running out of time in s3.  IMO, the difference this time is that Dean already knows according to Billie what will happen if he doesn't do this.  

And yet, despite Sam's outburst and drunken punch on Dean, IMO, it clearly isn't going to change the outcome, based on Dean's face. He's placating them IMO but has no intention of not going through with it.

Pretty disgusted with all the gratiuitous torture porn.  Stop it, show. 

Can't give this one any higher than a C. 

I agree with all this.  I'm hoping you are right that Dean is just placating them.  I really don't want him giving in to them just because little Sammy got upset and hit him.  Because Dean isn't on any ledge.

Jensen is a brilliant actor, we know that, I love that he still manages to come with new acting expressions even after all these years.  It's literally the only reason I still watch.  Don't want to miss those moments when he manages to pull something new and golden out of the manure the writers like to pretend is are storylines and plots.

I think having Sam and Cas frame it as somehow giving up and suicidal just shows how little they know and respect Dean.  So all their talk about his strength and what not a couple episodes ago wasn't true and was meaningless.  They never think "hey maybe we should trust Dean's judgment" it's always "No we know better, Dean's unstable, can't handle it blah blah blah", always the way that paints Dean in the  weakest light.  If they truly believed he was strong, they wouldn't think this was giving up or suicidal, they'd know he was doing it to save the damn the world.(Yet Dean is strong, he's been containing a damn Archangel while as usually he has to worry about what they will do to screw things up, while they show him how much they don't actually trust him or think he's strong)

Edited February 1, 2019 by tessathereaper

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

"Dean isn't stupid, he's just too literal"

Wait, who said this? I missed this part.

[tessathereaper]

4 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

How does that play out, though?  With a season 15 on the horizon, having Dean spend it in a box would not be my first choice as a Dean girl.  I thought the emotions were perfect.  Dean was doing his best to not allow himself to feel anything so that he could go through with his choice.  So naturally Sam is going to manipulate those emotions to get him to change his mind.  Dean would have done the exact same thing, and probably more.  Dean doesn't always play by the rules when it comes to saving Sam, and I doubt he would have here, either.

No Dean wouldn't have. (and the show made sure that everyone and their brother gave Dean the speech about respecting Sammy's choices and how strong Sam was and what a good plan it was, etc, etc).   When Sam was jumping into the cage with Lucifer, hell Dean was HELPING him.  I remember that scene, with the rings, where Dean is actually trying to help Sam do what he set out to do, only to have it turn out Lucifer was in control.  I remember because there was somehow something so touching about how Dean would do that despite it being the thing that would cause him the most pain, there he is trying to help Sam jump into the pit.  (Then Dean turns about with tears in his eyes and grips his hair in desperation but he still did everything he could for the rest of the episode to make sure that plan was carried out up to and including Sam jumping into that pit)

Also, when it comes to suicidal, if that's what they believe, in Season 8, Dean was very gentle and kind talking Sam down(who was once again somehow managing to blame Dean for his own state).  No one is ever kind and gentle with Dean in these situations.  It's usually "you're doing it wrong, you'are weak, pathetic, giving up, it's about me and how you don't trust me or you've disappointed me after I've done so much for you"("or why aren't you putting Sammy first you selfish boo hoo princess").  Even if Dean gets initially upset about something, he gets over it pretty quickly and starts putting the other person first, trying to somehow be supportive of THEIR decision.  Dean is just continually expected to put other people first, even HE is the one with the issue/pain/trauma/problem whatever and to go along with whatever their decision for HIM is. 

IMO Sam has now shown Dean that Dean can't count on him for support, he can't go to him with any issues he might be having with this - Sam will view it as Dean not trusting him somehow and it will upset Sam, so Dean is going to have to deal with whatever is going on, on his own.

And once again the writers show that Sam is no leader and certainly not a natural one. 

 

Quote

SAM: Please Dean, you don't have to keep your emotions inside, you can open up to me, I'm here for you, etc.

DEAN: Ok, well.. remember when we were kids?

SAM: OMG Dean could you NOT???

ZennyKenny, LOL.  Admittedly it's completely in character for Sam but still funny when you put it that way.

Edited February 1, 2019 by tessathereaper

[Female83]

That was a good episode. With Jensen being in the 300th ep next week it was obvious Dean would change his mind. I don't really mind the storyline with Nick. 

[BabySpinach]

I am so fucking tired of the "dumb, stubborn Dean needs sense literally beaten into him" trope, as if he were self-sacrificing just for kicks. This is also a prevalent attitude in fandom, that poor stupid Dean is always looking for an excuse to sacrifice himself and is therefore too oblivious to look for other options. Extreme condescension aside, it's also blatantly untrue. Dean is almost always forced into these "choices," with no other feasible options available to him, and to drag him for it by either yelling at him (in-story) or making fun of him for being "dramatic" (in fandom) severely belittles his actual courage and selflessness. I did like how Jensen chose to play Dean not as fully relenting, but resigned. He'll let Sam and Cas do their best, but he isn't exactly betting on them.

I don't remember the last time Sam or Cas were beaten up/berated over wanting to sacrifice themselves for the greater good. Sam got all the hero worship and "gotta let you grow up" support from Dean in season 5 for a much dumber and riskier plan, but when it's Dean, he's "giving up" rather than being heroic. His impending eternity of torment with Michael means shit; Sam and Cas are upset, damn it! God forbid they put their own feelings aside for a bit and treat the man who's pretty much condemning himself to Hell with a little empathy and compassion. This has been a long-standing trope since season 3. 

Yet despite all that, I somehow really enjoyed that final scene. It was intense, uncomfortable, and raw, and Jared got to play an extreme emotional state for once. While punching Dean didn't make Sam look good, it did feel like a genuine, flawed human reaction, like when Dean punched Sam in 2.03. It wasn't about right or wrong, it was about emotions and catharsis. I liked the scene on its own, though not so much the broader implication that Dean just needed a good smack to get his head on straight. Luckily, Jensen didn't play it that way, which softened the sting a bit. 

The positives: Dean didn't chicken out, he's still planning on the box as the final solution, and Michael is still rattling around in his noggin rather than conveniently dumped through a rushed plot contrivance. Jensen's acting was as incredible as always, and I give props to Jared this week as well. I'm impressed by how the central mytharc has developed into something very personal to the main characters from its generic Big Bad + Nameless Army roots, and that it is still maintaining that well-setup narrative tension from 14.10. Despite my thoroughly verbalized complaints above, I'm really am enjoying this season a lot more than I did 12 and 13.

[BabySpinach]

http://supernatural-jackles.tumblr.com/post/182465595554/spn-1412-prophet-and-loss-dean-winchester

Dean has never once been so nakedly terrified to the point of holding back tears before. A decade and a half in, and Jensen Ackles still blesses us with brand-new facets of Dean. Who would've thought that some of his best work on the show would crop up in season 14? He brings his A++ game regardless, but shines especially bright when given actual good material.

This is also the scene that made the crew cry. Imagine how much they must care for Jensen to be so emotionally affected by his feigned distress!

[juppschmitz]

6 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Well, I guess they could, but then they'd need to come up with some cockamamy way to somehow rescue him from there

Well, that would be unheard of on this show.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

No Dean wouldn't have. (and the show made sure that everyone and their brother gave Dean the speech about respecting Sammy's choices and how strong Sam was and what a good plan it was, etc, etc).   When Sam was jumping into the cage with Lucifer, hell Dean was HELPING him. 

And then there was Gadreel where Dean absolutely did play hard and fast with the rules and manipulated Sam - a lot (and I'm not talking about the initial possession here.) And he wasn't at all supportive in the aftermath. And there was Amara where Sam entirely supported Dean's decision to be the soul bomb.

Both brothers have supported or not supported each other on this point at various times.

3 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I think having Sam and Cas frame it as somehow giving up and suicidal just shows how little they know and respect Dean.  So all their talk about his strength and what not a couple episodes ago wasn't true and was meaningless.  They never think "hey maybe we should trust Dean's judgment" it's always "No we know better, Dean's unstable, can't handle it blah blah blah", always the way that paints Dean in the  weakest light.  If they truly believed he was strong, they wouldn't think this was giving up or suicidal, they'd know he was doing it to save the damn the world.(Yet Dean is strong, he's been containing a damn Archangel while as usually he has to worry about what they will do to screw things up, while they show him how much they don't actually trust him or think he's strong)

When do they ever just outright trust each others' judgement at first? ...hardly ever. I can't actually think of a time off the top of my head... and in my opinion, this isn't necessarily a bad thing. They bounce ideas off of each other, and sometimes come up with something better by working together.

As for not seeing Dean as strong, I disagree there, too. In my opinion, Sam and Castiel think that Dean can hold on and contain Michael until they can find another way. If they thought Dean was weak and couldn't handle it, they'd be chucking him in the ocean to make sure Michael didn't get out. I look at it more as Sam and Castiel think that Dean sometimes doesn't of think himself worthy of choosing himself, and based on the stuff Dean does and says sometimes, I can kind of see where they might have doubts.

For me, to have one character that is always willing to sacrifice for others and calls himself 90% crap and sometimes has major self-esteem issues, but then at the same time blame other characters for daring to question whether that character isn't making a choice that might not necessarily be kind to himself or come from a place of having enough faith in himself is kind of a tall order. So Dean's allowed to think of himself as crap and not think he's worthy, but other characters have to have 100% faith that Dean isn't thinking that way or rashly when he makes a decision where he's potentially sacrificing himself or they're completely crappy for not having faith in him?

I don't know, that seems kind of lose-lose for Sam and Castiel to me. Dean gets to be the sensitive, always sacrificing, too caring, humble guy with self-esteem issues... and he gets to be the noble one who has complete faith in himself at the same time who never gets enough support from Sam and Castiel for having faith in himself or thinking himself worthy. I've never really liked that dichotomy of Dean's characterization for that reason. It makes it difficult for any other characters not to come out looking like the bad guy in any situation since Dean has all the sympathetic trait bases covered.

I mean what was Sam supposed to do? Nod his head and say "sure Dean, you're right, the world is much more important than you are, so let's get you into that box and dump you into the ocean as soon as possible?" I think then there'd be claims of "See, Sam couldn't wait to get rid of him... maybe he'll go find a dog." So yeah, in my opinion: lose-lose.

6 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

I don't remember the last time Sam or Cas were beaten up/berated over wanting to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

For Sam, I'd say Gadreel, even though the "good cause" was just himself being gone and not screwing up any more. Probably the end of season 8 as well. Sam was suicidal, but he was wanting to do it for a cause. Sam's (mainly bad) idea of going to talk to Lucifer in season 11 was also pretty much berated.

[juppschmitz]

6 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I didn't. I find it exceedingly sad that the characters on the show and some within the fandom and possibly even the writers of the show think that that's the only way to get through to Dean-because it's not and it never has been. Not IMO, anyway.

Ah yeah, the good old "Dean needs the shit beaten out of him, he's so dense this is the only language he understands". *sighs*

[mertensia]

8 hours ago, lmdreamer said:

Was a good episode but why didn't  Donatello go with tfw to the bunker?  By choosing not to pull the plug they are responsible for him now. Plus he is a soulless loose cannon who the bad guys can easily use as proven in the past. Or at the very least have someone keep tabs on him or send him to jody/donna, something. 

I'm not too worried about anyone who, when they stop to think about what an appropriate thing to do would be, goes with what  Mister Rogers would do. Of course, I am worried that the next time we see him he'll be talking to puppets, but I'm sure, on this show, that they can be successfully destroyed.

Yeah, Dean's resigned. He sees there is no other way. I'm fully expecting Sam to break out the supernatural version of essential oils and Laetrile any time now.

The killer was properly creepy.

[gonzosgirrl]

The last time Death told Dean there was only one solution to a problem. He, after being convinced by Sam, disregarded him, and it resulted in Amara. Once again, Death has told him there is only one way. After Sam's big speech to Dean in 1201 about how they couldn't do that anymore, how Dean had to remember what their mission was and how they had to stop putting each other first, Sam is once again counseling Dean to ignore Death. He's proving once again that Dean cannot count on him to support or trust him in the same way that he demands trust and support from Dean.

And I'm sorry but the Gadreel thing is not a fair comparison. That was Sam dying for absolutely no good reason, after expressly showing Dean that he wanted to live, and Dean stopped it. This is a mirror of Swan Song, only no one is supporting Dean. Not Sam, not Cas. And not only are they not supporting it, Dean isn't even allowed to talk about it, or talk to Sam about his feelings and the past without being told to stop.

Quote

:SAM: Please Dean, you don't have to keep your emotions inside, you can open up to me, I'm here for you, etc.

DEAN: Ok, well.. remember when we were kids?

SAM: OMG Dean could you NOT???

@ZennyKenny you made me laugh with your Insight, but you also made me cry a little. And the worst thing is that the fandom is cheering Sam on for it, validating poor Sammy's feelings, and so the writers march on.

[sigmaforce86]

The opening scene of Dean in that underwater box triggered every claustrophobic feeling ever.  But Jensen nailed it.

I was wildly distracted by Sam when the boys were interviewing the twin brother - Poor guy had the worst placement and chair, it was too low to begin with AND he was sitting on the edge of it with the cushion smushed down so that, the way his legs were bent, his knees were up somewhere near his ears.  We know Jared is tall but he did not fit that seat at all!

As for the rest, I thought it good.  Not great but good and, to me, definitely a better episode than most of last week.  They finally have a case; even if it wasn't MOTW and it tied into the bigger story there was a small bit of the old "saving people hunting things" (something I really miss sometimes and I think they've lost in their quest for season story arcs).  The how to get rid of Michael for good plot is finally moving along and even if we think we can see the solution coming from a mile away there's still that small mystery of if it does turn out to be Nick they substitute for Dean (and being spoiler free I'm not saying that's a done deal plot wise) there's at least the little mystery of how they accomplish that.  

[juppschmitz]

20 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

He, after being convinced by Sam, disregarded him, and it resulted in Amara.

Em, no?

Even if Dean had gone along with Death's plan and killed Sam, Amara STILL would have been released because of the spell Sam, Cas, Charlie, Crowley and Rowena had been working on. 

I'm pretty sure of that because I still cared to watch back then, in the good old pre-Dabb days.

[trudysmom]

3 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I did like how Jensen chose to play Dean not as fully relenting, but resigned. He'll let Sam and Cas do their best, but he isn't exactly betting on them.

 

3 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

et despite all that, I somehow really enjoyed that final scene. It was intense, uncomfortable, and raw, and Jared got to play an extreme emotional state for once. While punching Dean didn't make Sam look good, it did feel like a genuine, flawed human reaction, like when Dean punched Sam in 2.03. It wasn't about right or wrong, it was about emotions and catharsis. I liked the scene on its own, though not so much the broader implication that Dean just needed a good smack to get his head on straight. Luckily, Jensen didn't play it that way, which softened the sting a bit. 

Thank you for putting into words so well what I couldn't seem to say.  I fully agree. There is no face that deserves to be punched less than Dean's, but I get Sam's desperation.  Kudos Jared, you kept up this time.  

[Wynne88]

46 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And the worst thing is that the fandom is cheering Sam on for it, validating poor Sammy's feelings, and so the writers march on.

Comment taken to Bitch vs Jerk.

[PAForrest]

I thought it was mostly an okay'ish kind of episode. Obviously they weren't going to dump Dean at the bottom of the ocean at the halfway point, but I think it's clear that the plan is actually still in motion and there's a high probability that it will be carried out in the season finale, and that's the cliffhanger. Who knows, maybe Jensen really is going to take some time off from the show to do another project, then come back in some episodes later. Or it's simply the cliffhanger to take us into season 155 ... and no, that's not a typo.

Right off the bat, though, one of the things that brought this episode down for me was the gratuitous torture porn - never been a fan, and whenever I see it I have to wonder how screwed up are the writers? Gaah. And then, of course, there's Bucklemming's pet and the whole mind-numbingly dull and convoluted waste of airspace we've had to choke on this year to bring Lucille back into play, since he's literally the only character Eugenie in particular cares about. The only enlightenment I'm getting out of this knitting needle through the frontal lobe plot device is the realization that Pellegrino is just another one-note actor. Years ago I thought he had range - I was so wrong.

On the flip side we have Jensen with tons of range, and that opening scene with a panicked Dean in the box was chilling and heartbreaking - as was his determination to see the plan through, even though you could see he was scared, and he should have been.

I'm fine with Sam's refusal to go along with the plan because that's just Sam. He always talks about how Dean is the one who is too clingy or has to let go, and frankly it's always been pot calling the kettle black because Sam is the one who really can't let go - except for the whole weird dog thing in season 8, which never made any sense. Cas is exactly the same way. Dean completes he and Sam, and I'm good with that.

The punch didn't bother me this time either because it was weak shit, and you could tell the desperation coming from Sam and Cas simply wore Dean down a little at the end. But at the same time, it's obvious he hasn't given up on the plan and he still believes it's the only eventual outcome. Like I said, I think it's probably the cliffhanger.

Edited February 1, 2019 by PAForrest

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, catrox14 said:

ETA:  I had to laugh at Nick not recognizing his dead wife.  I mean she doesn't look at all the same...so I can't fault him for that LOL.  But go the fuck away, Nick.  It's a stupid plot line that needs to die.

Well, it made sense because Lucifer took her form last time.  

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, juppschmitz said:

Em, no?

Even if Dean had gone along with Death's plan and killed Sam, Amara STILL would have been released because of the spell Sam, Cas, Charlie, Crowley and Rowena had been working on. 

I'm pretty sure of that because I still cared to watch back then, in the good old pre-Dabb days.

Yes, you are correct. I just meant that he convinced Dean to disregard Death's warning/prophecy. I fully put Amara on Sam and Cas, just saying that [Sam] continued to exhort Dean not to believe Death's word, even  after he *did* know there would be cosmic consequences.

[Bergamot]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

After Sam's big speech to Dean in 1201 about how they couldn't do that anymore, how Dean had to remember what their mission was and how they had to stop putting each other first, Sam is once again counseling Dean to ignore Death. He's proving once again that Dean cannot count on him to support or trust him in the same way that he demands trust and support from Dean.

I'm afraid that I have to agree with this. Dean doesn't seem to have held this lack of support against either Sam or Cas in this situation, but upon a re-watch of the episode, I have to say that I do. I understand that they couldn't bear the thought of losing Dean, but I did not like all the little barbed remarks aimed at Dean from both Sam and Cas throughout the episode, not to mention openly flinging it in his face that he was just giving up and was a QUITTER. He asked more than once for help to do this thing, which he DID NOT want to do although he truly believed it was necessary, but he did not get it.

As Sam and Cas got more and more desperate as time went on, and were blurting out accusations of Dean being stupid and suicidal, they more and more came across to me as scared children, with Dean being the adult in the situation. Especially with Sam's meltdown at the end, when he was crying and hitting Dean and accusing him of letting Sam down, in that scene Dean really came across to me as an adult giving in to a child against his better judgment.

 

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Quote

:SAM: Please Dean, you don't have to keep your emotions inside, you can open up to me, I'm here for you, etc.

DEAN: Ok, well.. remember when we were kids?

SAM: OMG Dean could you NOT???

@ZennyKenny you made me laugh with your Insight, but you also made me cry a little. And the worst thing is that the fandom is cheering Sam on for it, validating poor Sammy's feelings, and so the writers march on.

Yes, that made me want to both laugh and cry too. As for the fandom, I don't always think this, but in this episode I am not sure I would conflate the reaction of fandom (with all their various agendas, entrenched and hardened over many, many years) with the intention of the writers. In particular, if they are cheering that Sam was able to "finally knock some sense into Dean", then I would say that this is not what the show was saying, at least from what I saw.

 

4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me, to have one character that is always willing to sacrifice for others and calls himself 90% crap and sometimes has major self-esteem issues, but then at the same time blame other characters for daring to question whether that character isn't making a choice that might not necessarily be kind to himself or come from a place of having enough faith in himself is kind of a tall order.

Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, Sam and Cas don't get to use this excuse. That is not where Dean's decision came from. Every time he discussed his plan with Sam or with Cas, Dean was completely consistent. Here is what he DID say, repeatedly:
--If Michael gets out, he is going to destroy the world (including, although Dean didn't mention this, both Sam and Cas.)
--Michael is eventually going to get out, and Dean knows this because he is himself is the Cage holding Michael, which makes him the best judge of the situation.
--Billie says that the plan is the only path that doesn't lead to the world's destruction.
--There are no alternate plans being offered to deal with Michael, although Dean would be glad to consider one if anyone else had one.

And here is what Dean DID NOT say:
--It is all my fault, so I deserve this terrible fate.
--I am worthless crap anyway, so it is no big loss.
--It is an incredible, horrible strain on me personally to continue holding Michael in, so I would prefer to do this right away so I won't have to keep fighting so hard.

So no, I don't excuse Sam and Cas on that basis. That doesn't mean that I think it is despicable of them to love Dean so much that they can't stand the thought of letting him go, I can understand and sympathize with that, and I admit that I love Dean for loving them so much that he hates to see this.  But I also admire Dean for doing his best to carry out his plan, and I wish he had been shown respect for that, instead of being denigrated.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Bergamot

[gonzosgirrl]

1 minute ago, Bergamot said:

And here is what Dean DID NOT say:
--It is all my fault, so I deserve this terrible fate.
--I am worthless crap anyway, so it is no big loss.
--It is an incredible, horrible strain on me personally to continue holding Michael in, so I would prefer to do this right away so I wouldn't have to keep fighting so hard.

Such a great observation here. I don't know why it didn't leap out at me, since self-flagellation is Dean's default. For this alone, if for no other reason, Sam and Cas should've seen and understood how serious, selfless and NOT SUICIDAL Dean is in this.

[MysteryGuest]

The characters can only speak the words written on the page, and I agree that suicidal was the wrong word to use in the context of this storyline.  Dean wasn't suicidal.  He was self-sacrificing.  He was willing to take on the burden of an eternity of God only knows what for the sake of the people he loves and the rest of the world.  This absolutely was a noble gesture.  And he's still perfectly willing to do it, if it comes to that.  But I have no issue whatsoever with both Sam and Cas using whatever manipulative language or behavior they needed to in order to get Dean to change his mind, even if only temporarily.  They've bought themselves some more time to find another way.  And since their backs have been up against this same wall numerous times in the past, I can't blame them for thinking they could find another way to fix this problem too.  It's yet to be seen what happens, but I think their behavior was totally in character for all of them.  And they've each been in Dean's place in the past, and had to be convinced to try something else.  Cas' turn is going to come at some point, due to his deal with the Empty Keeper.  And round and round we go.

[PAForrest]

32 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

I'm afraid that I have to agree with this. Dean doesn't seem to have held this lack of support against either Sam or Cas in this situation, but upon a re-watch of the episode, I have to say that I do. I understand that they couldn't bear the thought of losing Dean, but I did not like all the little barbed remarks aimed at Dean from both Sam and Cas throughout the episode, not to mention openly flinging it in his face that he was just giving up and was a QUITTER. He asked more than once for help to do this thing, which he DID NOT want to do although he truly believed it was necessary, but he did not get it.

As Sam and Cas got more and more desperate as time went on, and were blurting out accusations of Dean being stupid and suicidal, they more and more came across to me as scared children, with Dean being the adult in the situation. Especially with Sam's meltdown at the end, when he was crying and hitting Dean and accusing him of letting Sam down, in that scene Dean really came across to me as an adult giving in to a child against his better judgment.

Yes!, you said it better than I could - that's exactly what I was feeling in this episode too. Sam and Cas were desperate, don't want to lose Dean - and believe me, I get that. But their desperation caused them to act somewhat like children in throwing out crap they shouldn't say because none of it was true. And Dean sadly and tiredly relented because of their attitude and because, as you said, he was the adult in the room and that's what they have to do sometimes.

But it's also very clear the plan is still in play, Dean knows better than anyone that the box is the only option on the books - quite literally at this point. If something changes in Billie's Big Library of Knowledge, that's great, but so far it hasn't. And Dean also knows he's fighting a losing battle against Michael, and neither Sam nor Cas can experience what he's going through right now.

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

Yet despite all that, I somehow really enjoyed that final scene. It was intense, uncomfortable, and raw, and Jared got to play an extreme emotional state for once. While punching Dean didn't make Sam look good, it did feel like a genuine, flawed human reaction, like when Dean punched Sam in 2.03. It wasn't about right or wrong, it was about emotions and catharsis. I liked the scene on its own, though not so much the broader implication that Dean just needed a good smack to get his head on straight. Luckily, Jensen didn't play it that way, which softened the sting a bit. 

I agree with this. I rewatched the scene a couple of times; once to watch Jensen and then the other time to watch Jared. Obviously Jensen is a fantastic actor and nailed every expression and every acting moment in that scene. But Jared really, really impressed me. I feel like he really nailed Sam's desperation and anguish over Dean's sacrifice all episode, but specifically in that final scene. I think Sam knows exactly what kind of sacrifice Dean is making and he understands how it's different than all of Dean's other sacrifices, hence the more volatile response. It wasn't about Dean needing to sacrifice the world for Sam. I think Sam's thought process was more along the lines of "My brother is going to be trapped in a box with Michael for all of eternity and although it's the right thing to do, I can't not look for another solution. I just need some more time with my brother." He was essentially asking Dean to stall a few more days. Jared really played Sam as being scared and desperate and clingy, especially during the hug with Dean. It was extremely well acted on Jared's part. 

Dean obviously knows what he can and can't handle when it comes to Michael being trapped in his head. If Dean felt like he couldn't hold Michael back any longer, then he should go in the box. 

But I think, while Dean has accepted his fate, Sam hasn't and his reaction was selfish, not because he wanted to sacrifice the world instead or because he didn't want to abide by Dean's wishes, but because he couldn't live with the thought that his brother would be trapped with Michael and that they never got the chance to look for another way. I don't think much time has passed since last episode (I missed the last episode, but I know what took place) but it's clear that Sam hasn't come to terms with his sacrifice. Again, not because he doesn't respect Dean's decision and wishes but it's more that Sam, for the most part, needs his brother and always had (besides that out of character season 8 stuff). He just wanted to find another way so maybe he wouldn't have to lose his brother (again). He was essentially projecting his own feelings for much of the episode. Much like how he told Dean at the beginning of the episode that he knew he was scared and all that? It was Sam partially projecting because HE was also just as scared. 

So Sam's reaction was pleading for Dean to give it another day because he was stalling. He wasn't necessarily saying no to the plan, but he hadn't come to terms with it by this final scene. And Dean definitely understood that, which is why he gave in. It's why Dean was shocked when Sam actually punched him; that's not a typical Sam move, nor is it a typical Dean move, so when one brother uses physical violence against the other, they know it's serious. So obviously Sam wasn't right in punching Dean, but I can see why it led up to that. 

Also, the fact that there's 8 episodes left and trapping Dean in the Box now isn't good storytelling. I think this is the part that has got it stuck in my head. They need to come up with a solution to get rid of Michael, but they can't very well use up the supposed only solution eight episodes before the season ends. They also can't leave Michael in Dean's head forever. They also need to show that Dean's choice is the right one, but they need to stall for time. Hence why Sam's speech was more about "well, there's no other solution today but there may be one tomorrow." 

[Aeryn13]

I agree that in the final scene Sam came across more child-like in his appeal - maybe the tipsiness added to that - and Dean more the weary adult. He gave in to Sam and Cas and gave them more time because right now he thinks he can. It`s a struggle to keep Michael contained but right now Dean is still more in charge than not. 

The entire problem of the situation is that IMO not even Dean can know when the door breaks down. It will be too sudden for him to have forewarning or to do something about it. That`s why he wanted to do the box thing now. Since he can`t go "okay, I can hold it together for 6 more weeks, we have that" or something like that.

And he is oviously not quitting because he has to fight every second of every day to keep an archangel contained. I liked that he spoke calmly but he laid down the law on when it was absolutely unavoidable, the plan would have to go through. And Sam and Cas could not argue against that anymore because what would that argument be?

Seeing as Cas has a recent secret deal going on with the Empty-Keeper, I actually found him to be pretty hypocritical during this episode. Especially in the "don`t compare your plan to what I did to Donatello because I had no choice" thing. Excuse me? Saving the world from Michael is a lot more justified than that Donatello stunt so cram your moral righteousness complex here. 

The punch itself didn`t really bother me because it was pretty weak. Dean had more of a "what the hell" reaction to it. 

Something I will say for the ep outside of the current storyline and just working the case, I liked that both brothers came across relatively knowledgable and competent and it was a pretty practical teamwork. So why the hell isn`t it like that all the time?   

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Well, it made sense because Lucifer took her form last time.  

They recast the actress hence my joke.

[ILoveReading]

So why not write Sam saying something to that effect.  As it came across it looks like Sam thinks Dean is a quitter and weak and doesn't believe in Sam.

Why not have Sam say something like, "Dean, remember what you told me when we fought Michael.  "Impossible odds feels like home.   Your strong, you've kept Michael in this long, I know you can do it a few more weeks why we look for something else.  I'm asking, begging you to wait.  I can't lose you if there is a chance we can find another way and we always do."

Maybe not those words but Sam came across as very selfish and self-centered in that scene.  "It's all about me.  Why are you hurting me.  Why don't you trust me."

Sam reminded me of John in that scene. 

Not to mention BRL, are as subtle as a sledgehammer, so with all the references to losing your losing someone letting/go, I can't help but think they meant for us to take a face value what Sam said.

19 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

The entire problem of the situation is that IMO not even Dean can know when the door breaks down. It will be too sudden for him to have forewarning or to do something about it. That`s why he wanted to do the box thing now. Since he can`t go "okay, I can hold it together for 6 more weeks, we have that" or something like that.

It also seems like its quite a distance to whenever they are going. So even if Dean had an inkling of when is there going to be time to get the box to the ocean. 

I do hope we continue to see the tole keeping an arch angel locked up is having on Dean.   I expect it to be ignored next week for obvious reasons but we haven't hear anything about episode 14 yet.  At least its a Yockey ep.

I do hope the opening of episodes aren't going to be an "I need to go into the box now, Sam"  "It's not the season finale Dean, besides I caught a case."  argument. 

I did like Dean putting together the clues together and I thought that that talk of slaughtering first born sons was interesting but I'm not sure it will go anywhere.

[Katy M]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

They recast the actress hence my joke.

Yeah, I know.  That actress looked nothing like Bellamy Young.

 

5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

36 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

that.

It also seems like its quite a distance to whenever they are going. So even if Dean had an inkling of when is there going to be time to get the box to the ocean. 

First of all, I totally agree that once Michael breaks free it's going to be too late.  But, you just made me wonder, do they need to get the box to the ocean first?  Couldn't they lock Mihcael in the box and then drive it to the ocean to throw it in?

[ILoveReading]

Why not just lock Dean in the box and leave it in the bunker while they search.

It would be a good compromise. 

Was it smart of Sam to punch Dean in the head?

[gonzosgirrl]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Why not just lock Dean in the box and leave it in the bunker while they search.

It would be a good compromise. 

 

Or at least keep him in the cuffs.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

and I thought that that talk of slaughtering first born sons was interesting but I'm not sure it will go anywhere.

I thought that was just due to Donatello trying to restructure his brain from his old memories/knowledge. And the new guy basically picked up Donatello thinking about the Ten Plagues from Egypt but somehow couldn`t place it as distant history aka a "word from God" that had already been given long ago. 

In general, it cracks me up now everytime the brothers meet someone who pontificates about God. At least AU!Michael did know him as his father way back when but even he is terribly embittered to learn the truth about Chuck. But random people "God spoke to me" - I just want them to say stuff like "he spoke to me, too, forever telling me that he just needed more time in the shower when I came to ask if he would join us for dinner, I mean, what was up with that?"

Seriously, this "Chuck in the bunker" stint de-mystified him as God so thouroughly, there is no coming back from that. The closest we ever got to that acknowledgment was when Rockstar!Lucifer told the brothers that "Dad ditched me - and you, too, btw". It`s like they all belong to an exclusive club.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Aeryn13

[SueB]

Well that was INTENSE.  First thoughts:

- I think they did a perfect job of writing/directing/acting the impact of Dean’s situation on TFW.  Dean terrified but determined, Cas frantic and insistent, and Sam just gutted but refusing to stop fighting.  Even better was how they each understood how the OTHERS were feeling.   Such depth of insight they all have!   

- Just in case we forgot Supernatural is a horror show, we got a big serving of ‘horror ala mode’ this episode.  Man, that shit was scary and disturbing.   

- I’m glad Donatello is back.  His ‘WWMRD’ (What Would Mr Rogers Do) moral code works for me.   

- Turns out Dean was right, Sammy IS the one to talk him out of it — temporarily.   That last scene deserves a term paper on it.  

- When seeing the characters we love go through so much pain on-screen, I’m reminded that the actors behind those characters are experiencing that intensity in a real sense in order to express so much to the audience with their performances.   I’ll never forget Jensen saying that when they get intense enough to cry, their body doesn’t know it’s ‘acting’ — they have those physical reactions naturally.   We are gifted with three guys who make themselves so vulnerable in order to tell a compelling story.   I feel very lucky. 

 

Fabulous episode.  I’ll be rewatching multiple times. 

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, Bergamot said:

I'm afraid that I have to agree with this. Dean doesn't seem to have held this lack of support against either Sam or Cas in this situation, but upon a re-watch of the episode, I have to say that I do. I understand that they couldn't bear the thought of losing Dean, but I did not like all the little barbed remarks aimed at Dean from both Sam and Cas throughout the episode, not to mention openly flinging it in his face that he was just giving up and was a QUITTER. He asked more than once for help to do this thing, which he DID NOT want to do although he truly believed it was necessary, but he did not get it.

As Sam and Cas got more and more desperate as time went on, and were blurting out accusations of Dean being stupid and suicidal, they more and more came across to me as scared children, with Dean being the adult in the situation. Especially with Sam's meltdown at the end, when he was crying and hitting Dean and accusing him of letting Sam down, in that scene Dean really came across to me as an adult giving in to a child against his better judgment.

 

Yes, that made me want to both laugh and cry too. As for the fandom, I don't always think this, but in this episode I am not sure I would conflate the reaction of fandom (with all their various agendas, entrenched and hardened over many, many years) with the intention of the writers. In particular, if they are cheering that Sam was able to "finally knock some sense into Dean", then I would say that this is not what the show was saying, at least from what I saw.

 

Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, Sam and Cas don't get to use this excuse. That is not where Dean's decision came from. Every time he discussed his plan with Sam or with Cas, Dean was completely consistent. Here is what he DID say, repeatedly:
--If Michael gets out, he is going to destroy the world (including, although Dean didn't mention this, both Sam and Cas.)
--Michael is eventually going to get out, and Dean knows this because he is himself is the Cage holding Michael, which makes him the best judge of the situation.
--Billie says that the plan is the only path that doesn't lead to the world's destruction.
--There are no alternate plans being offered to deal with Michael, although Dean would be glad to consider one if anyone else had one.

And here is what Dean DID NOT say:
--It is all my fault, so I deserve this terrible fate.
--I am worthless crap anyway, so it is no big loss.
--It is an incredible, horrible strain on me personally to continue holding Michael in, so I would prefer to do this right away so I won't have to keep fighting so hard.

So no, I don't excuse Sam and Cas on that basis. That doesn't mean that I think it is despicable of them to love Dean so much that they can't stand the thought of letting him go, I can understand and sympathize with that, and I admit that I love Dean for loving them so much that he hates to see this.  But I also admire Dean for doing his best to carry out his plan, and I wish he had been shown respect for that, instead of being denigrated.

 

This. is such a terrific post, Bergamot. Kudos.

And I was especially struck by the bolded parts in the exact same way that you were and you nailed it  at the end there as to why Dean is coming across as far more mature and in control of the situation than Sam and Cas-which might become more understandable IF the writing holds up and we're eventually shown that this was indeed the case. The problem, as ever, IS the writing and it's intent-which we have to wait on.

That said, IA with this sentiment also

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

It's yet to be seen what happens, but I think their behavior was totally in character for all of them. 

but what I'd like to see down the road is some growth out of the often childish behavior that we usually get from both Sam and Cas where it concerns Dean's actions and thoughts and feelings on things, including and especially less of it being all about them and how they are being affected/hurt by them and more about how Dean, himself, is being affected/hurt. Not holding my breath on that, though. 

 

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

So why not write Sam saying something to that effect.  As it came across it looks like Sam thinks Dean is a quitter and weak and doesn't believe in Sam.

Yup. This is the same old writer problem that they usually don't see. Completely tone deaf, as it has been called here by others and IA.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Myrelle

[bozodegama]

Dean's back for now.  Yay!  But they could've trotted out the Americana theme at the end.  That's all I got.

[gonzosgirrl]

48 minutes ago, SueB said:

Turns out Dean was right, Sammy IS the one to talk him out of it — temporarily.   That last scene deserves a term paper on it.  

Honestly, all this scene was to me is Dean doing what Dean does, again and some more: taking care of Sam. No matter what his own personal feelings and needs are, he stuffs them down and acquiesces to Sam needs. The prime directive is so deeply ingrained in him, it's near on impossible to ignore.

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

The characters can only speak the words written on the page, and I agree that suicidal was the wrong word to use in the context of this storyline.  Dean wasn't suicidal.  He was self-sacrificing.  He was willing to take on the burden of an eternity of God only knows what for the sake of the people he loves and the rest of the world.  This absolutely was a noble gesture.  And he's still perfectly willing to do it, if it comes to that.  But I have no issue whatsoever with both Sam and Cas using whatever manipulative language or behavior they needed to in order to get Dean to change his mind, even if only temporarily.  They've bought themselves some more time to find another way.  And since their backs have been up against this same wall numerous times in the past, I can't blame them for thinking they could find another way to fix this problem too.  It's yet to be seen what happens, but I think their behavior was totally in character for all of them.  And they've each been in Dean's place in the past, and had to be convinced to try something else.  Cas' turn is going to come at some point, due to his deal with the Empty Keeper.  And round and round we go.

I do because it's completely disrespectful to Dean to emotionally blackmail and to put him down in order to get him to listen to do what they want.  Hell I'd rather have them lie to him and go behind his back than make him feel worse about himself because that crap matters, that doesn't get taken back, that continues to affect Dean long after the current situation is "fixed".

So does lying and sneaking around, because that puts the effect right where it should be, on Dean's trust of Cas and Sam but at least Dean doesn't get call stupid by people he cares about and treated like he somehow doesn't know any better and doesn't even know his own mind.

Dean's not the one in the wrong here, Dean's not the one being weak and Dean's not the one being selfish.  They need to stop projecting their own problems into Dean.

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

So why not write Sam saying something to that effect.  As it came across it looks like Sam thinks Dean is a quitter and weak and doesn't believe in Sam.

Why not have Sam say something like, "Dean, remember what you told me when we fought Michael.  "Impossible odds feels like home.   Your strong, you've kept Michael in this long, I know you can do it a few more weeks why we look for something else.  I'm asking, begging you to wait.  I can't lose you if there is a chance we can find another way and we always do."

Maybe not those words but Sam came across as very selfish and self-centered in that scene.  "It's all about me.  Why are you hurting me.  Why don't you trust me."

Sam reminded me of John in that scene. 

Not to mention BRL, are as subtle as a sledgehammer, so with all the references to losing your losing someone letting/go, I can't help but think they meant for us to take a face value what Sam said.

It also seems like its quite a distance to whenever they are going. So even if Dean had an inkling of when is there going to be time to get the box to the ocean. 

I do hope we continue to see the tole keeping an arch angel locked up is having on Dean.   I expect it to be ignored next week for obvious reasons but we haven't hear anything about episode 14 yet.  At least its a Yockey ep.

I do hope the opening of episodes aren't going to be an "I need to go into the box now, Sam"  "It's not the season finale Dean, besides I caught a case."  argument. 

I did like Dean putting together the clues together and I thought that that talk of slaughtering first born sons was interesting but I'm not sure it will go anywhere.

Well the ocean isn't really part of keeping Michael in, that's just to keep other people out.  It's still ridiculous don't get me wrong to keep risking it when Dean keeps saying how hard this is BUT. at least as I recall, the Ocean isn't necessary to keeping Michael in just keeping other people out.

[Bobcatkitten]

Also, I realize it was a dream but why was there no water in that box? I think it might have been better to have water slowly filling up.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Bobcatkitten

[MysteryGuest]

16 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

do because it's completely disrespectful to Dean to emotionally blackmail and to put him down in order to get him to listen to do what they want.  Hell I'd rather have them lie to him and go behind his back than make him feel worse about himself because that crap matters, that doesn't get taken back, that continues to affect Dean long after the current situation is "fixed".

I don't think anything that Sam or Cas said to Dean to get him to change his mind will leave a permanent scar.  They said the idea was stupid and selfish, which had the shoe been on the other foot, Dean would have and has said the same thing.  Dean's had a shit life, and may have issues of self-worth (though I honestly think he's worked through most of those), but he's not some fragile little baby who everyone is always being mean to.  My unpopular opinion is that some Dean fans are way too sensitive on his behalf, especially when it comes to things like this.  Dean totally saw through what Sam and Cas were doing, and opted to give them more time, along with himself.  He didn't change his mind because he started to think, "gee, maybe I am really stupid and selfish and maybe they don't like me anymore".  I just really hate the idea that somehow the score needs to be evened because Dean didn't get to play Michael back in season 5 and jump in the pit with Sam.  It's been 9 seasons since then.  And I'll stop now, because this should probably be in one of the bitch threads, since I'm sounding bitchy.

[gonzosgirrl]

24 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I do because it's completely disrespectful to Dean to emotionally blackmail and to put him down in order to get him to listen to do what they want.  Hell I'd rather have them lie to him and go behind his back than make him feel worse about himself because that crap matters, that doesn't get taken back, that continues to affect Dean long after the current situation is "fixed".

So does lying and sneaking around, because that puts the effect right where it should be, on Dean's trust of Cas and Sam but at least Dean doesn't get call stupid by people he cares about and treated like he somehow doesn't know any better and doesn't even know his own mind.

Dean's not the one in the wrong here, Dean's not the one being weak and Dean's not the one being selfish.  They need to stop projecting their own problems into Dean.

Preach!

[ILoveReading]

33 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I do because it's completely disrespectful to Dean to emotionally blackmail and to put him down in order to get him to listen to do what they want.  Hell I'd rather have them lie to him and go behind his back than make him feel worse about himself because that crap matters, that doesn't get taken back, that continues to affect Dean long after the current situation is "fixed".

So does lying and sneaking around, because that puts the effect right where it should be, on Dean's trust of Cas and Sam but at least Dean doesn't get call stupid by people he cares about and treated like he somehow doesn't know any better and doesn't even know his own mind.

Dean's not the one in the wrong here, Dean's not the one being weak and Dean's not the one being selfish.  They need to stop projecting their own problems into Dean.

I wish I could like this more than once. 

IMO, Dean's still that blunt instrument.  He just traded dictators.

[SueB]

15 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I didn't. I find it exceedingly sad that the characters on the show and some within the fandom and possibly even the writers of the show think that that's the only way to get through to Dean-because it's not and it never has been. Not IMO, anyway.

The ratio of brotherly punches is exceedingly Dean punches more than Sam.  And it was a punch of frustration - Dean understood this and pulled Sam in for a hug.   I thought it was perfectly in character for the situation.  It’s not how MY family relates but it’s definitely Team Winchester.  I think they are mostly past it — the punch Sam threw was a relative softball compared to past events.  

15 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I didn't. I find it exceedingly sad that the characters on the show and some within the fandom and possibly even the writers of the show think that that's the only way to get through to Dean-because it's not and it never has been. Not IMO, anyway.

The ratio of brotherly punches is exceedingly Dean punches more than Sam.  And it was a punch of frustration - Dean understood this and pulled Sam in for a hug.   I thought it was perfectly in character for the situation.  It’s not how MY family relates but it’s definitely Team Winchester.  I think they are mostly past it — the punch Sam threw was a relative softball compared to past events.  

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

The ratio of brotherly punches is exceedingly Dean punches more than Sam.

Not including episodes where they are under the influence, or 9.1 because that wasn't Dean.  It took place in Sam's head so it was Sam punching himself.

Dean punched Sam in Bloodlust, Metamorphosis, The Girl Next Door, and Born Under a Bad Sign.

Sam punched in this ep,

So its not like Dean getting physical with Sam is really a major thing and hasn't happened in seasons.  Its not the punch that bothers me.  It's Sam's words about Dean quitting and not believing in Sam when that had nothing to do with it.

Dean was trying to save the world,  He had Billie's books, he knows how close Michael is to getting out and Sam was acting like Dean wanted to do this thing.  That he was doing it to spite Sam.

Sam needs to learn that not everything is about him and he needs to stop making it about him. 

[tessathereaper]

54 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Not including episodes where they are under the influence, or 9.1 because that wasn't Dean.  It took place in Sam's head so it was Sam punching himself.

Dean punched Sam in Bloodlust, Metamorphosis, The Girl Next Door, and Born Under a Bad Sign.

Sam punched in this ep,

So its not like Dean getting physical with Sam is really a major thing and hasn't happened in seasons.  Its not the punch that bothers me.  It's Sam's words about Dean quitting and not believing in Sam when that had nothing to do with it.

Dean was trying to save the world,  He had Billie's books, he knows how close Michael is to getting out and Sam was acting like Dean wanted to do this thing.  That he was doing it to spite Sam.

Sam needs to learn that not everything is about him and he needs to stop making it about him. 

Exactly.  Personally I don't care about the punch beyond the hypocrisy of the treatment Sam's punches vs Dean's.  I never cared because these guys grew up sparring and training together, they are highly physically trained individuals, a little punch here and there under mental duress really isn't anything IMO to either one of them. 

But what Sam said?  That's another story and more importantly Sam once again making it all about himself.  

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Dean's had a shit life, and may have issues of self-worth (though I honestly think he's worked through most of those), but he's not some fragile little baby who everyone is always being mean to. 

How come it's never time to treat Dean well?  Why is it that no one is EVER expected to put Dean first at times like this?  Why is it that Dean is always expected to just "understand"?  This is more of the same.  It's always fine to insult and belittle Dean because "Dean can take it"?  And people in the show are far meaner to Dean than they are to anyone else, IMO.  

That is wrong, IMO.  Someone being able to "take it" doesn't mean it should be done and that the other characters shouldn't be called out on it.  Sam was wrong in what he said, wrong in what he did and he was behaving in an incredibly selfish, childish, self-centered manner and he's just making it that much harder for Dean and all he's showing is that Dean CANNOT count on him for emotional support when he really needs to.  This episodes showed that Dean is alone, again.  Not physically but emotionally.   

He's doing it for them because he understands but frankly Dean shouldn't even be being put in that position by them, where he has to put them and their feelings ahead of his own, again.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

How come it's never time to treat Dean well?  Why is it that no one is EVER expected to put Dean first at times like this?  Why is it that Dean is always expected to just "understand"?  This is more of the same.  It's always fine to insult and belittle Dean because "Dean can take it"?  And people in the show are far meaner to Dean than they are to anyone else, IMO.  

While on the one hand that can drive me up walls, on the other I`ve always seen it as Dean is the adult/leader/rock and that`s why there is this discrepancy. That makes the character appear far stronger to me than I think the writers mean for him to be. It is different whenever he interacts with characters who view him more as a peer. Those interactions are different. 

In this episode, apart from Cas`s utter hypocracy in the hospital scene, it didn`t bother me overly much. I`m really not one for the "brother moments" anymore and stuff like the final scene of Sacrifice make me want to claw my eyes out for its content. In comparism I found this one here to be relatively well-written in terms of dialogue and certainly well-acted by everyone involved. It also wasn`t so terribly one-sided where Dean`s side of the argument is given no merit. He got to say "okay, I`ll give you as long as I can but when it is unavoidable, you gotta be reasonable about it". 

If we have to have such scenes in the show (and there will never not be), then I`d rather have them like this than others we`ve had on the show. 

For a Bucklemming episode, this was surprisingly okay. The most WTF was the Nick storyline that just will not end. He wants Lucifer back, I get it already. Though honestly, I don`t understand why. He wants the pain to stop? He can do that by ending his life or maybe he is aware that he would be hellbound at this point. But what does being worn by Lucifer give him, Nick? I figure at best he is half-asleep while Lucy is in control. And of course nice bit of ultra-selfishness to want to unleash Lucy on the world again.

I still don`t see that at all as a mirror storyline for Dean, apart from the very superficial "one wants to be an archangel vessel, the other does not", there is nothing there. And that comparism is so flimsy, it is not storyline material.  

The prophet case seemed to honestly just rather weird and random. Now that had some anvillious messaging there with "younger" brother griefing and Donatello pulling through. That was pretty clumsy but the actual case-work was done very well IMO so I liked that. 

For a Season that started out with no real Michael!Dean, superleader!Sam pimpage, the 1001 ones how Jack is nougat, Kaia!Sue belittling Dean all over the place and  Nickifer of boredom, I do believe this Season took a turn for the better so far. Only Nickifer of boredom is still so extremely prevalent but I do enjoy the Dean stuff right now. Maybe my standards are low but I remember stuff like 8.B and 12.B so to a degree, I take what I can get.   

Edited February 1, 2019 by Aeryn13

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Not including episodes where they are under the influence, or 9.1 because that wasn't Dean.  It took place in Sam's head so it was Sam punching himself.

And I'll say it again. The Gadreel thing (punches included) does not equate with this. Sam was going to die for no good reason except that he was 'tired' and 'quitting' and giving the fuck up. Dean is trying to save the damn world!!! Not the same thing at all.

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Sorry, but as far as I'm concerned, Sam and Cas don't get to use this excuse. That is not where Dean's decision came from. Every time he discussed his plan with Sam or with Cas, Dean was completely consistent. Here is what he DID say, repeatedly:
--If Michael gets out, he is going to destroy the world (including, although Dean didn't mention this, both Sam and Cas.)
--Michael is eventually going to get out, and Dean knows this because he is himself is the Cage holding Michael, which makes him the best judge of the situation.
--Billie says that the plan is the only path that doesn't lead to the world's destruction.
--There are no alternate plans being offered to deal with Michael, although Dean would be glad to consider one if anyone else had one.

And here is what Dean DID NOT say:
--It is all my fault, so I deserve this terrible fate.
--I am worthless crap anyway, so it is no big loss.
--It is an incredible, horrible strain on me personally to continue holding Michael in, so I would prefer to do this right away so I won't have to keep fighting so hard.

While much of this makes sense, and I don't disagree with pretty much a word of it (except that Sam and Castiel are just using this an excuse somehow) ... how often has Dean come out and said exactly how he feels about something right away? Now Castiel can probably read minds, but Sam can't.

My whole point about what I said was - though I do agree with @MysteryGuest that Dean is getting better about this - how is Sam - who already has his own shit going on due to this thing he's not ready to face and wants a chance to try to "fix" - supposed to know when Dean is going to be making a decision based on self-esteem issues or not? The plot gives Dean self-esteem issues when it suits the purpose or mood - like "Advanced Thanatology" - but then gives Dean confidence and self-preservation/whatever whenever that suits the mood - like this episode. Did something significant happen between "Advanced Thanatology" and now that would make Dean change his mind about himself?*** Good question, in my opinion, and how is Sam supposed to know which Dean is going to show up? Is it MoC Dean or Amarra soul-bomb Dean or is it make a crossroads deal Dean? Sure Sam could listen to Dean's words, but they can both be lying liars who lie about stuff like that, and Sam has heard - and himself said - "I'm fine" and "what other choice did I have" a lot when they both know the other didn't mean it or it wasn't true.

Is Sam projecting and somewhat unfairly dumping his crap on Dean to selfishly get Dean to wait a while - yup. But is Sam entirely out of line in wondering if Dean is letting lack of self-preservation creep into his decision? ...Based on history, in my opinion, no, he isn't. Not at all. That was my point.

*** Sure Dean had a temporary win, but how long was that going to last with such a deep, down feeling and they've also had other losses since then.

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Yes, you are correct. I just meant that he convinced Dean to disregard Death's warning/prophecy. I fully put Amara on Sam and Cas, just saying that [Sam] continued to exhort Dean not to believe Death's word, even  after he *did* know there would be cosmic consequences.

I don't entirely understand what you are talking about here. Sam didn't convince Dean to kill Death... Sam had given in to Dean and was going to support Dean's decision so much that he knelt on the ground to sacrifice himself to Dean's cause. Sam had no idea that Castiel was going to finish the spell.*** Dean decided on his own to kill Death. That didn't lead to Amarra of course, but it was Dean's own decision which could have had its own really bad consequences. Sam was completely surprised that Dean didn't go through with it.

So here's a case of where Sam is supporting Dean in something - yes, the spell was also going on, too, but after hearing Dean's plan, here, Sam was supporting this new plan^^^ - and somehow he's still not supporting Dean and is talking him into killing Death.

***and Carver's writing conveniently had Sam forget about "oh yeah, a spell might be being done," well, because Carver, imo.

^^^ Who knows, maybe Sam thought that Death's plan would override his and make Castiel's spell irrelevant and solve the entire thing. That would have been - considering Death is supposed to be somewhat omniscient - an entirely understandable conclusion, in my opinion.

8 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

Even if Dean had gone along with Death's plan and killed Sam, Amara STILL would have been released because of the spell Sam, Cas, Charlie, Crowley and Rowena had been working on. 

Probably, but based on what they knew of Death - in that he was supposedly omniscient - if Death said that this would work, I don't think it would have been unreasonable for Sam to think that Death's plan would override his own which he didn't even know if it was even going anywhere at that point. Therefore as far as Sam knew, he was supporting Dean in his plan and fully expected to die so Dean could do what needed to be done.

For me, this is an example showing that Sam is not unreasonable and will listen to Dean and support him if he truly thinks it is the only way.

For this episode, Sam just wasn't there yet.

8 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And I'm sorry but the Gadreel thing is not a fair comparison. That was Sam dying for absolutely no good reason, after expressly showing Dean that he wanted to live, and Dean stopped it.

I specifically said not the original possession. I was talking about afterwards, when Sam was feeling that something was wrong with him, that he was going bad again, and was wondering if he was / didn't want to be a danger to the world, so Sam thought that his maybe dying might have been for the greater good. Dean didn't tell Sam the truth and continued to manipulate him and make Sam feel like he was just being paranoid to get what he wanted... And just because Gadreel didn't end up being much of a threat, in my opinion, doesn't mean that he couldn't have been one, or that Dean knew Gadreel wasn't one...*** especially as time went on. The story ended up going in an entirely different direction, but the set up was there for it to have gone horribly wrong if they had wanted it to.

It's not a direct comparison, but in my opinion, there are some similar elements.

*** It's not like evil entities haven't played good and saved people in order to lull them into a false sense of security concerning their actual purpose before - Ruby being a good example.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't entirely understand what you are talking about here. Sam didn't convince Dean to kill Death... Sam had given in to Dean and was going to support Dean's decision so much that he knelt on the ground to sacrifice himself to Dean's cause. Sam had no idea that Castiel was going to finish the spell.*** Dean decided on his own to kill Death. That didn't lead to Amarra of course, but it was Dean's own decision which could have had its own really bad consequences. Sam was completely surprised that Dean didn't go through with it.

I didn't say he convinced him to kill Death, I said he convinced him to disregard his warning. And I can't agree that Sam had no idea the spell was going to be finished and he wasn't just buying time. His intent was still the same. What could have happened re Dean's choice is moot - what did happen re Sam's is not. But really, my only point was that regardless of how and why, he KNOWS what happened the last time Death's warning was ignored, and he's doing it again anyway.

[AwesomO4000]

4 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I didn't say he convinced him to kill Death, I said he convinced him to disregard his warning.

If that was before Dean killed Death, then it was still Dean's decision. And Sam had obviously changed his mind, because he was going along with Dean's plan.

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

And I can't agree that Sam had no idea the spell was going to be finished and he wasn't just buying time.

And how was that supposed to work while Dean was swinging the scythe towards his neck? Sam was pretty much out of time, he thought, yet still kneeling there, resolved, waiting to be sacrificed. I think the evidence more points to my interpretation.

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

What could have happened re Dean's choice is moot - what did happen re Sam's is not.

And this is where we fundamentally disagree. Just because someone gets away with making a risky or bad decision doesn't - in my opinion - negate the fact that it was a risky or bad decision.

Besides Dean apparently didn't heed Death's warning either, since he was the one who killed him rather than listening to him. I don't get why it's so awful of Sam, but fine for Dean.

11 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

But really, my only point was that regardless of how and why, he KNOWS what happened the last time Death's warning was ignored, and he's doing it again anyway.

And for me, Sam, in the end, didn't disregard it last time, because he trusted Dean's judgement. He went along with it and was ready to die for it.

And that was my point... there's no indication that given time, Sam won't do the same thing here.

To me, I get it. Sam seems like the kind of person who has to test things, try to find a solution himself first, to make sure himself that it's the only way or that there isn't anything else that can be done. Once he knows that or is convinced, then he'll relent. I'm not saying that that isn't a dangerous way to be sometimes or that it won't bite them in the ass here if Michael escapes (which he just might), but I get it.