S04.E13: Man of Worth

[Scarlett45]

On 1/27/2019 at 5:17 PM, BitterApple said:

All I have to say is if a man EVER had to "take a moment and think" on whether he could accept my daughter after she'd been raped, those would be the last words he spoke before I knocked his teeth out. Claire, Jamie, and Ian risked their lives for months to save him, Ian had to give up his family and Roger's all "um, uh, I don't know, give me a minute...". I can't believe Brianna took him back. I also can't believe we're losing the amazing Ian for this pansy loser.

Oh and Jenny won't be upset? Yeah, somehow I don't think so. 

Murtaugh and Jocasta were cute. I guess everyone needs love.

This post made me laugh out loud. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

4 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Another random thought: Jamie, Claire, Brianna, Roger, the baby, Lizzie, Fergus, Marsali, the other baby and Murtaugh are now all going to be at Fraser's Ridge. Where the hell are they going to put everybody? From what I could see the only dwellings were the cabin and that little tree hut. Jamie's going to have to use his warp speed construction skills to build a nice subdivision.

Fraser's Ridge is a large area of land. There are already tenants living there that we've not seen.

40 minutes ago, cam3150 said:

(he was a split second from touching the stone)

Roger's diatribe to Father Alexandre implied he chose not to go through the stones before the Mohawk caught him.

[cam3150]

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

•  

 

1 hour ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Roger's diatribe to Father Alexandre implied he chose not to go through the stones before the Mohawk caught him.

Ok, I couldn’t quite tell there. I’m sure it was one of the many times I should have used closed captioning. Even as good as I’ve gotten with the accents, I still have trouble. Plus there are  a lot of mumblers and fast-talkers in this show. 

[ganesh]

Or he could have gone through and waited a while and then gone back after the Mohawk abandoned their search. It's not like Roger was particularly valuable. 

Edited January 29, 2019 by ganesh

[terrymct]

Claire and Bree's response to slavery bothers me.   Back in Jamaica, Claire was shocked and angry about the slave market and wanted to do something about it...even though she really couldn't do much other than buy and free the one man.  In North Carolina, though, they're on their Aunt's plantation.  They COULD potentially talk their Aunt into changes in the operation of the plantation...but they don't.  It's very much a "...but our slaves are well treated and happy so it's ok!".   That's how way too many people justified slavery.   Brianna, a really bad character all around, has had almost no reaction other than oh so bravely sketching the face of one of the slaves.   She's happy to be waited on hand and foot.

I'm glad the whole mess with Roger being a captive was ended quickly.  Life in the Native village could have been interesting, but that whole story line was based on a series of slapstick level incidents of bad communication.  The delay in his appearing at the plantation was stupid manipulation of the viewer.  Just frothy romance novel dreck.   Maybe Ian being a part of the village will bring a more interesting view of life in a Native community, sort of like what we saw in the first season with the Clan communities.  Probably won't though.

This author and the screen writers use rape as a plot device way too often.  Yeah, it's the romance novel tradition, but it's a lazy way to add conflict to a scene without having to develop characters and complex scenarios.   Thankfully, we've seen less of it in the New World.  Back in Scotland it was happening about every other episode.    It's also a lazy writing technique to have your big villain "killed" off screen, just to have them make a miraculous escape or recovery and be back vexing Our Heroes.  Black Jack survived trampling by iconic Scottish fuzzy cattle, just to appear again.   Bonnet was "killed" in the explosion, but we all know he'll pop up next season and try to kill or sexually assault someone.  That's an absolute certainty.  After he's actually killed off at some point, the next arch villain will seem to die but pop back up, too.

I'm glad that in these New World seasons that gay/bi men are being shown in roles other than just warped bad guys, as they were in the Scotland seasons.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

10 hours ago, cam3150 said:

Ok, I couldn’t quite tell there. I’m sure it was one of the many times I should have used closed captioning. Even as good as I’ve gotten with the accents, I still have trouble. Plus there are  a lot of mumblers and fast-talkers in this show. 

He said, "And even then, even then, I had yet another chance to walk away, to go home. Against all odds, I broke free from my captors. I found a way home. All I had to do was reach out and touch it. But did I? No, I just stood there with freedom within my reach, and I hesitated, like an idiot, because after all that, I still loved her." So he might have outright chosen not to go back and then been almost immediately captured, or he might still have been making up his mind when they caught up to him.

[Emkat]

Why does this show have THE WORST wigs in the history of television?!?!

[ganesh]

I honestly don't really notice. Stuff like that doesn't bother me. 

[taanja]

1 hour ago, Emkat said:

Why does this show have THE WORST wigs in the history of television?!?!

I guess I don't notice-- it doesn't bother me. Their hair all looks ratty because they are all unwashed and uncombed most of the time. Bathing is an ordeal. 

[terrymct]

14 minutes ago, taanja said:

I guess I don't notice-- it doesn't bother me. Their hair all looks ratty because they are all unwashed and uncombed most of the time. Bathing is an ordeal. 

And yet....Claire and Bri usually dress as if they have access to a neighborhood dry cleaner.   It's really convenient that they're able to find people to pay for their wardrobes wherever they go...or managed to have beautiful textiles way out in the backwoods.

[toolazy]

16 minutes ago, terrymct said:

And yet....Claire and Bri usually dress as if they have access to a neighborhood dry cleaner.   It's really convenient that they're able to find people to pay for their wardrobes wherever they go...or managed to have beautiful textiles way out in the backwoods.

The costume designer, Terry Dresbach, has done a lot of posting on Twitter about this.  Believe it or not, all of these things are thought through and if you pay close attention, you can see it happening.  Lots of the clothes are remade from things shipped with Bree from Lallybroch.  Bree's hooded fur-trimmed coat was worn by Claire in the first season and was stored at Lallybroch. Bree also wears one of Claire's season one dresses.  The show has made a point to show trunks being loaded on the ship with Bree and textiles on wagons going from Wilmington to the Ridge. 

Jamie's black suit is the one he wore to Versailles in season 2.  If you look closely you can see that it's been patched and darned over the years. 

Also, Terry requested that the writers provide a seamstress and so Marsali is a seamstress.  

If this is something you're actually interested in, look her up on Twitter:  

Outlander Costume@OutlanderCostum

[terrymct]

21 minutes ago, toolazy said:

The costume designer, Terry Dresbach, has done a lot of posting on Twitter about this.  Believe it or not, all of these things are thought through and if you pay close attention, you can see it happening.  Lots of the clothes are remade from things shipped with Bree from Lallybroch.  Bree's hooded fur-trimmed coat was worn by Claire in the first season and was stored at Lallybroch. Bree also wears one of Claire's season one dresses.  The show has made a point to show trunks being loaded on the ship with Bree and textiles on wagons going from Wilmington to the Ridge. 

Jamie's black suit is the one he wore to Versailles in season 2.  If you look closely you can see that it's been patched and darned over the years. 

Also, Terry requested that the writers provide a seamstress and so Marsali is a seamstress.  

If this is something you're actually interested in, look her up on Twitter:  

Outlander Costume@OutlanderCostum

Her work is absolutely gorgeous.   I'm glad she's going for continuity but my comments stand.  Yep, haul some things over from Scotland but where those trunks full of Claire and Bri's wardrobes or maybe some things that might be useful in the New World?  It's really just an aspect of the fantasy of the show.  We're supposed to dream of ourselves in those same outfits, imagining how awesome it'd be to be standing on Frasier's Ridge next to Jamie and dressed in such a lovely way.

[toolazy]

53 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Her work is absolutely gorgeous.   I'm glad she's going for continuity but my comments stand.  Yep, haul some things over from Scotland but where those trunks full of Claire and Bri's wardrobes or maybe some things that might be useful in the New World?  It's really just an aspect of the fantasy of the show.  We're supposed to dream of ourselves in those same outfits, imagining how awesome it'd be to be standing on Frasier's Ridge next to Jamie and dressed in such a lovely way.

They were specifically clothes.  Ian mentions to Brianna that there are trunks of clothes that she can wear and have.  I mean, yes, it's a fantasy show, but a lot of thought was given to working out and/or showing how it is feasible that they dress the way that they do.  

Edited January 29, 2019 by toolazy
Because things don't make sense when you don't type all the words.

[BitterApple]

I'm curious to hear how everyone would grade this season? Good? Bad? Middle of the road?

I'd give it a solid B+. Started out a little clunky, but picked up steam and the finale was decent. I don't think S4 was as good as S1 and S2, but I'd put it even with S3. 

[GHScorpiosRule]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

I'm curious to hear how everyone would grade this season? Good? Bad? Middle of the road?

I'd give it a solid B+. Started out a little clunky, but picked up steam and the finale was decent. I don't think S4 was as good as S1 and S2, but I'd put it even with S3. 

Compared to the first three seasons? I give it a solid C. Why? Because it's no sekrit that I'm all about Jamie and Claire*. This season didn't have them in two episodes. Unlike most, I felt their absence and missed them. And me no likey. For me, episodes that have both Claire and Jamie, make the episode better. Then there's the fact I can't STAND Brianna, which isn't helped by the fact that Sophie can't act. Wee Ian was barely shown.

*Unapologetic fangurrrl.

[Cdh20]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I'm curious to hear how everyone would grade this season? Good? Bad? Middle of the road?

I'd give it a solid B+. Started out a little clunky, but picked up steam and the finale was decent. I don't think S4 was as good as S1 and S2, but I'd put it even with S3. 

I was just thinking I wish we had a poll of fave seasons? Fave episodes? Fave scenes? You read my mind! 

Now I can’t decide for myself- season 4 is last though, not that I hated it, but I didn’t love it. My fave episode of this season was “The Birds & The Bees”, without a doubt!

My fave epi ever is still “The Wedding”, followed by “The Reckoning” ( runs & hides because now everyone thinks I am a perv). 

I love that the audience falls in love with Jamie at the same time as Claire, that was the hook for me! ( and all my girlfriends)

This show is still above average in so many ways, even when an episode disappoints. 

57 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Compared to the first three seasons? I give it a solid C. Why? Because it's no sekrit that I'm all about Jamie and Claire*. This season didn't have them in two episodes. Unlike most, I felt their absence and missed them. And me no likey. For me, episodes that have both Claire and Jamie, make the episode better. Then there's the fact I can't STAND Brianna, which isn't helped by the fact that Sophie can't act. Wee Ian was barely shown.

*Unapologetic fangurrrl.

I would agree with this but I actually liked the episodes when Jamie & Claire were apart surprisingly (season 3). My very least fave episode is “The Search”- Sam should never get the week off! 

[GHScorpiosRule]

6 minutes ago, Cdh20 said:

I would agree with this but I actually liked the episodes when Jamie & Claire were apart surprisingly (season 3). 

They may have been apart, but both Cait and Sam were onscreen. That was my point in my original post.

[Cdh20]

1 hour ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

They may have been apart, but both Cait and Sam were onscreen. That was my point in my original post.

Ok, got it! I thought you meant Jamie & Claire had to be together in the scenes. 

Edited January 30, 2019 by Cdh20
adding a thought

[ganesh]

I thought this season just spun wheels and a lot of the drama was forced just due to people not communicating like people normally would. 

They've really dropped the ball, and I don't know if they're constrained by the books or what, but maybe they need to be more creative for tv. 

[Cdh20]

Obviously this season is setting a lot of stuff up for upcoming seasons, think about how season 1 & 2 were like that,  talking about the Jacobite war coming, & then it happening.  Season 3 was kind of like 2 seasons, broken up by the time apart, & starting life together again. I don't know what season the War of Independence will start-maybe next season? 

[BitterApple]

Brianna was roughly 2-3 months pregnant when Claire and Jamie left to find Roger, and they didn't return until the baby was two months old, so yikes, they spent close to nine months on the road? Could you even imagine? I think I would've packed it in and told her to just marry Lord John Grey.

I think Roger will forever be on my shit list for costing us Ian and Rollo.

[ganesh]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Brianna was roughly 2-3 months pregnant when Claire and Jamie left to find Roger, and they didn't return until the baby was two months old, so yikes, they spent close to nine months on the road?

They basically walked from North Carolina to *upstate* New York and back. I'd say they made good time. I can buy the timeline though. 

2 hours ago, Cdh20 said:

Obviously this season is setting a lot of stuff up for upcoming seasons, think about how season 1 & 2 were like that,  talking about the Jacobite war coming, & then it happening. 

I think the narrative direction in the first two seasons, along with the worldbuilding was much much stronger in seasons 1 and 2. These were much more tightly plotted and suspenseful. These was a much better job with all the characters. We're not happy seeing Mert now unless we really got to know him then. 

Jamie and Claire have been meandering around for a while. I can't say with confidence that this is all setup for something. The third season was a lot of waiting around for Claire to go back, and didn't expand Frank's character, nor Claire becoming a doctor, much at all. 

I suspect this is a constraint of the books, though I haven't read them and don't care too. I'd suggest TPTBs for the tv show to take a page out of Game of Thrones and move past the books and create the show off them. 

[Adira]

21 hours ago, terrymct said:

Claire and Bree's response to slavery bothers me.   Back in Jamaica, Claire was shocked and angry about the slave market and wanted to do something about it...even though she really couldn't do much other than buy and free the one man.  In North Carolina, though, they're on their Aunt's plantation.  They COULD potentially talk their Aunt into changes in the operation of the plantation...but they don't.  It's very much a "...but our slaves are well treated and happy so it's ok!".   That's how way too many people justified slavery.   Brianna, a really bad character all around, has had almost no reaction other than oh so bravely sketching the face of one of the slaves.   She's happy to be waited on hand and foot.

They had a whole episode about this.  Claire was REALLY bothered about the slavery at River Run.  Remember - one of the slaves attacked a man and she ended up trying to save him.  The town came to have him hanged and Jamie and Claire really struggled with what to do.  They ended up giving him a mercy killing rather than allow him to be lynched alive.  And when Jocasta tried to get Jamie to take over River Run for her, Claire and Jamie refused, partly BECAUSE of the slavery issue, and they left.  They tried to convince Jocasta to free her slaves, but remember, it was going to cost a fortune because each slave would cost like $2000 or something to free, plus they needed proof of some brave act or something like that.  The law regarding freeing slaves was ridiculous and Jamie and Claire realized they couldn't do it, so they left.

Although they didn't show it, I'm assuming Claire warned Bree about slavery at River Run and Bree probably decided the fight wouldn't be worth it since she couldn't change anything at the time.

[BitterApple]

3 hours ago, Adira said:

 

Although they didn't show it, I'm assuming Claire warned Bree about slavery at River Run and Bree probably decided the fight wouldn't be worth it since she couldn't change anything at the time.

I agree and I think Brianna really wasn't in a position to campaign for social justice. She was pregnant, unmarried, alone and completely dependent on Jocasta's good will for her survival. There's a time to pick your battles and this wasn't it. I'd love to see Brianna and Claire do something to help in future seasons, though. 

[ganesh]

I generally don't assume off-screen actions with characters unless it is referenced to thew viewers. In this case, Bree obviously would be aware that being on a southern plantation at this time period would have slaves, so I don't think there's any need for Claire to warn her. 

48 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

She was pregnant, unmarried, alone and completely dependent on Jocasta's good will for her survival.

I think this was her main concern, so I don't think the show is deficient here for Bree not speechifying against slavery. I find the character to be kind of self-centered tbh, and I don't envision her at this point doing anything about it. 

Really, while I find Jamie's dilemma fairly interesting, it's not clear to me what the show is really about now. 

[Nidratime]

Quote

Really, while I find Jamie's dilemma fairly interesting, it's not clear to me what the show is really about now.

It seems to me we are traveling full circle. From season 1 to 3, we saw the disbandment of not only the Mackenzie/Fraser clan and family but the destruction of the Highland Scots community amidst a rebellion. Season 4 appears to be the start of the rebuilding of that clan and community in another world amidst another rebellion. 

[ganesh]

They're running smack into the Revolutionary War, and Jamie just got tasked with murdering his godfather, so I don't know how that's going to turn out. 

[Cdh20]

25 minutes ago, ganesh said:

They're running smack into the Revolutionary War, and Jamie just got tasked with murdering his godfather, so I don't know how that's going to turn out. 

Well clearly he is NOT going to murder his precious Godfather! 

[ganesh]

No. I'm hoping this will turn into an interesting plot. I'm saying any rebuilding of clan and community likely isn't going to turn out too well based on everything that's going on. 

[BitterApple]

53 minutes ago, ganesh said:

No. I'm hoping this will turn into an interesting plot. I'm saying any rebuilding of clan and community likely isn't going to turn out too well based on everything that's going on. 

I think it will end up a lot like S2 where we have Jamie and Claire running interference and playing both sides. Governor Tryon is going to be S5's BPC. Eventually Jamie will have to make a choice and I'm assuming that will happen on the cusp of the Revolutionary War breaking out. I wonder if the action will shift back to Wilmington and Riverrun. Fraser's Ridge is out in the middle of nowhere, so there really isn't a lot of potential for Claire and Jamie to get into their usual hijinks at that location.

Edited January 30, 2019 by BitterApple

[Scarlett45]

15 hours ago, ganesh said:

They basically walked from North Carolina to *upstate* New York and back. I'd say they made good time. I can buy the timeline though. 

You’re right- and they cannot really travel after the sun goes down! I think they made good time. 

[ganesh]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

Eventually Jamie will have to make a choice and I'm assuming that will happen on the cusp of the Revolutionary War breaking out.

I don't think it's a choice though. Claire already told him what's going to happen, and he's got the good sense to heed her advice. 

I imagine they'll burn the house on their own to fake their deaths at the end of the season. 

With Jamie tasked to muster an army, I would speculate that there's going to be action at multiple locations. Plenty of opportunities for hijinks. Claire can't sit still. 

[terrymct]

On 1/30/2019 at 7:45 AM, Adira said:

They had a whole episode about this.  Claire was REALLY bothered about the slavery at River Run.  Remember - one of the slaves attacked a man and she ended up trying to save him.  The town came to have him hanged and Jamie and Claire really struggled with what to do.  They ended up giving him a mercy killing rather than allow him to be lynched alive.  And when Jocasta tried to get Jamie to take over River Run for her, Claire and Jamie refused, partly BECAUSE of the slavery issue, and they left.  They tried to convince Jocasta to free her slaves, but remember, it was going to cost a fortune because each slave would cost like $2000 or something to free, plus they needed proof of some brave act or something like that.  The law regarding freeing slaves was ridiculous and Jamie and Claire realized they couldn't do it, so they left.

Although they didn't show it, I'm assuming Claire warned Bree about slavery at River Run and Bree probably decided the fight wouldn't be worth it since she couldn't change anything at the time.

 

I remember that episode.   Still weak.  Part of the take home was that they slaves were better off with Jocasta.    Maybe this is handled better in the book?  To me, it came off as something they might do, then shrugging at the idea it might be difficult, then going on their merry ways.

Bree never showed anything and there's no basis for assumptions in this case.  Bree would have known there would be slaves because she took American history at some point.  That still doesn't explain the ease at which she slid on into having slaves supporting her lifestyle.

Edited January 31, 2019 by terrymct

[fishpan]

On 27/01/2019 at 11:06 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

You’d think that the 2+ months that Roger spent making his way back from New York with Jamie and Claire would have been enough time to make up his mind about Brianna and the baby, but no, he needed an extra day or two just to make it all dramatic when he finally showed up. Yes, I’m still bitter that we lost Ian in exchange for Roger. At this point, I don’t think there’s anything he can do to make me like him or get over the shitty way he slut shamed Brianna. He can fuck right off into the stones and disappear forever as far as I’m concerned. 

 

Yeah but in Roger's defence he wasn't getting 2+ months to get to make that decision if he went back with Claire and Jamie.  He was getting 30 seconds because if he went with Jamie at that moment he was going back to stay.  There was no - you can have a think about it on the way back, it was 'decide now because I'm not having you break her heart even if she hate ME for it.  And this was all minutes after finding everything else out.

So probably in Roger's head, a) he's an emotional mess, b) in lots of pain c) just found out all of this d) got the guy who got him injured and enslaved infront of him basically saying 'I've now made that all alright now.  So you now do as you are told and walk away from everything you know or piss off because this is about my daughter, my family and my relationship with them.'

 

Even if he was prepared to say he'd stay in the face of Jamie's semi ultimatium, well can you blame anyone with regards to hesitating because Roger wouldn't just be going back to stay with Bree and the baby and dumping everything he's ever known, at that point it also looks like if he goes back to Bree he's doing so on the understanding Jamie will be always breathing down his neck and judging his every move.

 

At least Ian said a real sorry and well he got what he wanted, as that boy was disappearing into the woods at some point to go native and we all knew it.

 

So saying that all I can say is next season we need Murtagh to stay alive and more Marsali because they are the only two who could legit sort this mess out, without it descending into more miscommunication.  Murtagh to give Roger an 18th century Scottish ear non bias ear to bend as he gets use to the past and grows into the man he need to be to survive there and Marsali to kick Jamie up the arse when need be about when to butt in and when not to.  Because you know Marsali would be better at doing that then Claire would.

Edited January 31, 2019 by fishpan

[taanja]

On 1/29/2019 at 1:59 PM, BitterApple said:

I'm curious to hear how everyone would grade this season? Good? Bad? Middle of the road?

I'd give it a solid B+. Started out a little clunky, but picked up steam and the finale was decent. I don't think S4 was as good as S1 and S2, but I'd put it even with S3. 

Oh I give it an A

I have no preconceived notions of how characters should behave or how the plot plays out. I just watch and enjoy.

It entertains me from beginning to end. I can't say that about a lot of Television shows/series. I like what I like--- and I don't have time or patience to continue watching things that don't please me.

[ganesh]

That kind of comes off as a swipe at some of the viewers who have been critical of the show. I don't hate watch, which I agree is annoying and I don't understand why people would waste their time, but being critical of some of the show developments isn't unreasonable. I like the scenery. I love Lord John. Jocasta is a good actor in anything, and I always liked Mert. Calling out Roger for being largely useless and kind of a jerk is an accurate assessment of his character this season. I'm very interested in the Stones and how they work and who knows about them. One can be critical because they know and want the show could be better. 

[Cdh20]

I think it's fair to have a few criticisms of the show, that doesn't mean we don't love it- I do love it, more than any show in forever. Giving this season an A-. I did do a poll at work and the season did come up as the least favorite season for everyone!

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 1/28/2019 at 12:17 PM, Netfoot said:

Oh, yes?  I wondered who that was and how they connected.  Simply didn't make that connection.

He's also wearing the necklace of the stone in the opening title, which I didn't notice the first time.

 

My favorite historical touch is that when Jamie is using the spyglass, you can briefly see a couple of Mohawk playing lacrosse in the background.

Edited February 3, 2019 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Jul 68]

On 1/29/2019 at 2:59 PM, BitterApple said:

I'm curious to hear how everyone would grade this season? Good? Bad? Middle of the road?

I'd give it a solid B+. Started out a little clunky, but picked up steam and the finale was decent. I don't think S4 was as good as S1 and S2, but I'd put it even with S3. 

I don't know if it's still true, but you used to be able to message the moderators and request a poll. I did it several times a year or so ago. As long as you give them a question with several response options and they agree that it's a good question, they would post it. This way you could hit both the book readers and the non-book readers.

I hope they still do it. We had lots of fun with them back on the OUAT forum.

[toolazy]

So these threads are no longer labeled with their book talk status. Or am I missing something?

[Netfoot]

8 hours ago, toolazy said:

Or am I missing something?

No, the forums are missing something.

[GHScorpiosRule]

11 hours ago, toolazy said:

So these threads are no longer labeled with their book talk status. Or am I missing something?

2 hours ago, Netfoot said:

No, the forums are missing something.

Yes, due to the major site upgrade, it’s going through reindexing. The spoiler tags and “book talk” “no book talk” will reappear. Probably by next weekend.

[vavera4ka]

On ‎1‎/‎28‎/‎2019 at 9:49 AM, BitterApple said:

One thing I found interesting is the fact that Otter Tooth is yet another example of someone traveling through the Stones to alter history and failing. He wanted to warn his people and ended up getting killed for it. Despite his attempt, the tribes were eradicated anyways.

So Otter Tooth failed, Geillis failed, Claire failed. If what's happened has happened, how are Jamie and Claire going to avoid the fire? 

I still think that from the get go the fire was an escape plan. Jamie and Claire never died form the fire. At least Claire didn't. The Cherokee woman said that Claire will be all grey and wise one day. So they will not avoid it, the fire will happen. Maybe some tertiary characters will die, so they will be burned to crisp and be "James Fraser and his wife" while the gang goes north to meet up with Ian and be on the right side of the war for once.

So Lord John Grey is out of the picture now? Silly Bree... Can I marry him? He did mention that he's perfectly capable of performing husbandly duties... kind, caring, respectful, easy on the eye... I can live with him loving another man. he seems to be able to love other people, maybe not as deeply, but hey... every relationship has it's flaw lol

Edited May 8, 2019 by vavera4ka

[Rahul]

On 1/29/2019 at 10:12 AM, terrymct said:

I'm glad the whole mess with Roger being a captive was ended quickly.  Life in the Native village could have been interesting, but that whole story line was based on a series of slapstick level incidents of bad communication.  The delay in his appearing at the plantation was stupid manipulation of the viewer.  Just frothy romance novel dreck.   Maybe Ian being a part of the village will bring a more interesting view of life in a Native community, sort of like what we saw in the first season with the Clan communities.  Probably won't though.

 This author and the screen writers use rape as a plot device way too often.  Yeah, it's the romance novel tradition, but it's a lazy way to add conflict to a scene without having to develop characters and complex scenarios.   Thankfully, we've seen less of it in the New World.  Back in Scotland it was happening about every other episode.    It's also a lazy writing technique to have your big villain "killed" off screen, just to have them make a miraculous escape or recovery and be back vexing Our Heroes.  Black Jack survived trampling by iconic Scottish fuzzy cattle, just to appear again.   Bonnet was "killed" in the explosion, but we all know he'll pop up next season and try to kill or sexually assault someone.  That's an absolute certainty.  After he's actually killed off at some point, the next arch villain will seem to die but pop back up, too.

I was really PO'd when Roger showed up at River Run at the end. I've grown really incensed with his character, even if he did show Father Alex compassion while in captivity. Roger has been horrid to Brianna and an all around imbecile for thwarting himself from escape/returning to his own timeline at every turn. I don't know if I can stomach another season of this show if he's still a featured main player. It would be sooo much better with out him.

Outlander has grown really predictable for me with its rape and insurmountable villains with nine-lives story lines. I could see the ending telegraphed from a mile away. Really bad writing.

[ganesh]

Really though, I'm guessing the source material doesn't really have the density. 'Frothy' is apt. I

[MadameKillerB]

Ian! I know he seems happy but I will miss him. I guess this is a good decision since he didn't really have much to do otherwise. I hope Rollo is happy there.

What about the poor woman who was exiled? The Mohawk woman.

Brianna is just annoying. I don't know if it's the horrible storyline for her or if it's just the actress. Roger is handsome and a better actor but...Jamie and Claire 2.0 they are not!

Costume question that I can't find an answer to: what do those little ring pins signify? Ian had a few on his lapel and then the woman who got exiled had a bunch all over her coat.

M and J...daaaaaaang, it got spicy 🙂 Love M lying in bed with his hair down and lookin all sexy-like to J. Ha!

[Cdh20]

On 1/28/2019 at 8:33 AM, ganesh said:

I know this isn't that kind of show, but I'd really like to learn more about the stones. The lack of curiosity just bothers me. You'd think there would be more legends all over the place. 

I actually like that the supernatural, sci-fi aspects are down played on this show, I hesitated on watching it because of that element, but was so glad when I did! I do understand people’s curiosity about how time travel works, & perhaps it is frustrating for viewers that they don’t bother with details much. The one thing I hope we learn about one day is Claire’s heritage- at least one of her parents must have been a traveller? Did they even know it? Jamie is soon about to be surrounded by a family of travellers, so he will be the odd man out instead of Claire.

[kwnyc]

Quote

n North Carolina, though, they're on their Aunt's plantation.  They COULD potentially talk their Aunt into changes in the operation of the plantation...but they don't.  It's very much a "...but our slaves are well treated and happy so it's ok!".   That's how way too many people justified slavery.

Going back to the slavery issue...we've already learned that it's nearly impossible to free a slave: it costs a lot of money, even if the owner says the slave saved his life (which is what happened with the riverboat pilot.) So the system in North Carolina is constructed to keep slavery as status quo.

And it goes back to the original story that Jamie chooses to settle in North Carolina. Not only does he live in a slave state (the Northern states began to outlaw it after the Revolutionary War), but he's also staying in a part of the country that will have the Civil War in another century. It doesn't ALWAYS have to lead to Culloden, Jamie!

I'm not the author, but I would have sent them to Vermont or some other mountainous New England state that could have reminded Jamie of Scotland.

[toolazy]

22 hours ago, kwnyc said:

I'm not the author, but I would have sent them to Vermont or some other mountainous New England state that could have reminded Jamie of Scotland.

There are story-related reasons to keep them in the south.  For one thing, they were in the west indies and that's literally where they washed up.  Also, going to New England - or anywhere in the northeast - would land them smack in the middle of the Revolutionary War.  The thinking was that they would be safe from it in their remote mountain hideaway. 

[sas616]

On 10/29/2019 at 3:01 PM, toolazy said:

There are story-related reasons to keep them in the south.  For one thing, they were in the west indies and that's literally where they washed up.  Also, going to New England - or anywhere in the northeast - would land them smack in the middle of the Revolutionary War.  The thinking was that they would be safe from it in their remote mountain hideaway. 

Not to mention that historically, many , many Scots immigrated to North Carolina at that time.