Sara Lance: The Canary Rises In White

[slayer2]

Comic-Con is the last weekend in July.

Thanks! That's a looking time to wait for an answer.

[BunsenBurner]

I do not understand about the pout thing with CL and why it bothers everyone.  The first time I saw it I thought it was great because it reminds me of PB and the way he moves his mouth. They are not exactly the same but they both do it. Like father like daughter. 

[BkWurm1]

I noticed it, the lip thing, but it never bothered me. I think it somehow translates into giving Sara this look of vulnerability that is at wonderfully contrast with her badass status.

[slayer2]

I do not understand about the pout thing with CL and why it bothers everyone. The first time I saw it I thought it was great because it reminds me of PB and the way he moves his mouth. They are not exactly the same but they both do it. Like father like daughter.

I don't notice it either, I'm too busy noticing how badass she is. I hope she gets her own show, I may just jump ship.

[Lisin]

It's this face: 

http://i.imgur.com/3tbsp0y.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Cvv99tB.gif

http://i.imgur.com/Nw0iQOx.jpg

 

She makes it a lot. Both in and out of costume. I think the actress is a badass but the lip thing is almost distracting. Her resting face is pursed lips. 

[BunsenBurner]

Det Lance does the same thing. If you look at Sarah in the episode when she was about to board The Gambit she did not do it. I thought that was very telling. Of course my memory might be wrong.

[calliope1975]

The pout bothered me in her first appearance, and no, I can't articulate why it irritated me. But by the end of that first episode, I liked her ass kicking ways so much that I got over it. My friend that I'm rewatching the show with has not gotten over it, comments on it every time she's on screen, and has now taken to imitating her face. I guess MMV after all. 

[Lisin]

I'm not saying I don't like her either, I do, it's just the pout stands out. I also imitate it every time she's on screen. 

[Morrigan2575]

I don't know where to put this CL was at a Con in Chile today. Here's a little tidbit.

Http://twitter.com/caitylotzarmy/status/472868155480879104

Apparently she can't talk about S3 because it's a secret. Given the fact that she's listed in the Upfronts Press Release I'm thinking it's a given that she's a S3 Regular and I'm betting (sadly) that she comes back as White or Jade Canary.

Edited May 31, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[catrox14]

Can you elaborate on White or Jade Canary and how it's different than Black Canary?

[Morrigan2575]

They're totally different characters.

Jade Canary is Lady Shiva - http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Shiva

Less likely since Lady Shiva is a pretty big DC character, with connections to the Bat family

White Canary is a little known villain only appeared in 11 issues of Birds of Prey. http://www.comicvine.com/white-canary/4005-71585/

This one would probably be more likely as it wouldn't impact anything else but they also made Isabel Rochev into Raveger so who knows?

Although, this is kind of interesting. Apparently in BoP #5 (circa 2010) Dinah become the White Canary? Anyone read the issue?

http://www.theweeklycrisis.com/2010/09/comic-book-moments-of-week-for-091510.html?m=1 (you have to scroll down a bit.)

Did some digging, cant read why Dinah is wearing the White Canary's outfit but it appears to have been a frame up or something.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[abhi]

Since Caity Lotz has said that it is a secret and she can't reveal it, I think it gives weight to the rumors that her status will be updated at Comic Con SD and it will most probably be a regular status on the show. Maybe, the EPs were just screwing with our expectations with the jacket giving away, like they love to do so.

Edited June 1, 2014 by abhi

[catrox14]

That would be fantastic

Edited June 1, 2014 by catrox14

[Morrigan2575]

Since Caity Lotz has said that it is a secret and she can't reveal it, I think it gives weight to the rumors that her status will be updated at Comic Con SD and it will most probably be a regular status on the show. Maybe, the EPs were just screwing with our expectations with the jacket giving away, like they love to do so.

While I agree that she will pretty much be a series regular in S3 (her mention in the Upfronts PR confirmed that for me). I sadly think the producers are dead set on making Laurel Black Canary. They were very vocal in their answers that the S2 finale would settle the BC debate and they did that lame ass jacket handoff.

I'm betting Sara comes back using another hero name and (gag) trains Laurel to be the crappiest BC eva!

[abhi]

Yes, It was Andrew Kreisberg who had said that after 43 minutes we will know who the Black canary will be. But in the interview he did laugh after mentioning this information and it had looked pretty odd to me at that time. But it is quite possible that if they are playing with expectations (which they are doing by keeping Lotz's status a secret) then it is another statement to throw a mis-direct and that laughter would make sense.

 

Though it's highly likely that Laurel might become BC, but I don't think that they have confirmed it yet to Katie Cassidy as she would have given some hint about it on her Twitter or stg.

[Morrigan2575]

Though it's highly likely that Laurel might become BC, but I don't think that they have confirmed it yet to Katie Cassidy as she would have given some hint about it on her Twitter or stg.

Katie Cassidy has been talking about training and being ready to put on the costume in every post finale episode she's done. As much as I hate it, as stupid as I think it is, as bad for the show that I think it is, I'm sadly sure that this show is going to have Laurel be instaCanary because they somehow think this will save the character or make people love her.

[catrox14]

Morrigan, thanks for the info on the different Canarys.  Maybe Laurel becomes the other one and Sara remains BC? 

 

C'mon show, just make Laurel an evil DA and be done with it. :(

[quarks]

It is possible - and I am raising this only as a possibility - that what Cassidy is actually doing is loudly and publicly reminding everyone what she was promised or at least thought she was promised when she was offered the role: the kickass Canary role and the love interest role. 

 

Regarding Sara, given this show, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the showrunners are trying to set up another major misdirection/surprise. 

[catrox14]

 

It is possible - and I am raising this only as a possibility - that what Cassidy is actually doing is loudly and publicly reminding everyone what she was promised or at least thought she was promised when she was offered the role: the kickass Canary role and the love interest role.

 

Obviously, unless someone is privy to what actually took place in her negotiations we don't know, but if indeed that is what she is doing, IMO that's just airing behind the scenes dirty laundry and I find it distasteful and off-putting and it surely doesn't help this viewer respect her at all.  I hope it's not true and that she just isn't very good at PR etc.  

[statsgirl]

Given where I lurk and post, it's often a shock for me to read blogs that talk about the jacket scene setting up Laurel to finally become the Black Canary next season but I think a lot of people feel that's going to happen.

 

The EPs have already said that they don't understand the dislike of Laurel. Maybe they read tvline, which practically exploded with the promo pictures of Laurel shooting the bow (and not in a good way) and the post finale comments against losing Sara to make Laurel the BC.  But even if they don't, I can't imagine all three of them being so clueless as to keep Caity Lotz on the show and make Laurel the new BC.  When you've been drinking vintage Bordeaux, plonk isn't going to cut it.

[Morrigan2575]

It is possible - and I am raising this only as a possibility - that what Cassidy is actually doing is loudly and publicly reminding everyone what she was promised or at least thought she was promised when she was offered the role: the kickass Canary role and the love interest role.

Regarding Sara, given this show, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the showrunners are trying to set up another major misdirection/surprise.

It is possible, I've also heard talk that everyone but SA was signed to a 3 year contract so her talk is a negotiating tactic since her contract is up after this season. I would love to take her comments from Motor City Con about writing The CW to make sure she stays on the show forever and ever as reality and not a poor joke.

Somehow I just think the writers are so wrapped up in their original vision that they can't admit it's not working. Or maybe they really don't see a problem with Laurel and think (as AK said months ago) that the only reason people don't like Laurel are because they want her to be BC already, and this will fix everything.

I don't know but I don't trust them in the show, when it comes to Laurel it's more about what they say.

But even if they don't, I can't imagine all three of them being so clueless as to keep Caity Lotz on the show and make Laurel the new BC. When you've been drinking vintage Bordeaux, plonk isn't going to cut it.

I have no idea what they're thinking really. I know that John Campea from the Aftershow Blog (they interviewed SA in December and have a pretty big following) said he'd stop watching if they put Laurel in the BC outfit in S3.

It wouldn't make much sense but when has anything about Laurel actually made sense? Hell even Roy, who started his journey to hero in 1.18 still hasn't put on a costume and his journey (for the most part) was shown even if they shoved it into the background starting around 2.13.

Edited June 1, 2014 by Morrigan2575

[FurryFury]

These writers really are clueless. At the start of s2, I actually shrugged off their interviews with Laurel-propping as misdirection, because everything I've seen on the show itself gave me a completely different impression. I saw Felicity becoming Oliver's main love interest, I saw Sara as his partner and Black Canary and I saw Laurel being gradually phased out, maybe even getting killed off in the finale to fit her Dark Knight Trilogy prototype Rachel Dawes. But then there was hiatus and the second half of the season, and it became painfully obvious that Kreisberg and Guggenheim, at least (Berlanti doesn't seem to be as involved, or maybe he just doesn't do that much publicity) don't care about fans' opinion on Laurel, or even don't know about the extent of it. Maybe they see those few vocal supporters (who, frankly, seem to like KC more than Laurel herself) and delude themselves thinking the fanbase is divided.

 

Anyway, Sara Lance is my favorite character on Arrow, and her handling by the show starting with "Heir to the Demon" is appalling. The potential for complex, yet platonic because of painful past involvement, relationship with Oliver (which would have been interesting and new for both of their characters) was thrown under the bus for yet another pointless hook-up and a short-lived romance without any narrative purpose. She barely had any scenes with Sin - a non-familial female/female relationship that could have provided a breath of fresh air in the world of the show filled with male/male and male/female relationships. Her vigilante career was completely forgotten in favor of becoming yet another sidekick of Oliver's. And the point of no return was her going back to the League, to the people that made her hate herself so much she preferred dying to continuing that life, and quite possibly to the person who was willing to kill Sara and her mother in pure revenge for dumping her (I realize Nyssa and Sara/Nyssa have quite a few fans, but for me, that's a vintage case of Psycho Ex-Girlfriend trope, something I can't imagine myself rooting for, ever). I don't know what will happen to Sara in season 3, but I know that even if they make her a regular, I'd be watching every finale being afraid for Sara, because the chance of her being killed off to prop Laurel yet another time is too damn high.

[JayKay]

I think that Sara was my favorite character of season 2. She's certainly what got me to start tuning in regularly. I suppose Sara arriving as the BC could be viewed as a bait-and-switch of the concept of Laurel as the BC, but now I feel like Sara showing up was a bait-and-switch to get me watching and excited for the Black Canary. So now it's like "Gotcha! Haha, you watched it even though you knew it would suck!"

 

I've said this a few times elsewhere, but the initial report of Katie "Typical CW Shill" Cassidy being cast as Dinah Lance was the tipping point for me deciding that Arrow wouldn't be worth my time. I watched parts of the pilot and nothing really changed my mind about it. It wasn't until I caught the buzz about a new Black Canary coming on to the scene that I marathoned season 1 on Netflix and started watching Arrow weekly.

 

And now she's gone again. What a waste. There are other enjoyable elements to the show, but Sara as the Black Canary was easily my favorite. Maybe it's the comic fan in me dictating my emotions, but I'm super bummed that they had an awesome BC and could scrap it over making a few ill-thought out promises to some network executives' favorite actress.

[slayer2]

I'm not saying I don't like her either, I do, it's just the pout stands out. I also imitate it every time she's on screen.

I don't understand why we don't have an Arrow drinking game yet? We've got pursed lips, manpain, the amount of times Oliver says Felicity. The amount of times Sara has died or almost fake died, the amount of times Sara's returned or someone's been injected with something. I mean I'm just saying...

Edited June 1, 2014 by slayer2

[catrox14]

I don't understand why we don't have an Arrow drinking game yet? We've got pursed lips, manpain, the amount of times Oliver says Felicity. The amount of times Sara has died or almost fake died, the amount of times Sara's returned or someone's been injected with something. I mean I'm just saying...

Do you want to kill the entire audience via alcohol poisoning?

 

Also, you left out kidnappings

Edited June 1, 2014 by catrox14

[slayer2]

For the safety of the audience kidnappings must only be included in the Sudden Death round.

Edited June 1, 2014 by slayer2

[icandigit]

The ones that I've seen online are an invitation for alcohol poisoning..

[tv echo]

I don't think that the EPs of a show should blindly follow whatever fans want.  At the same time, whatever story the EPs want to tell has to make sense and flow organically from what they've shown on the screen.  Also, fan input is important because without fans, ratings go down and the show is cancelled.  It's a delicate balancing act.  In Arrow, they've shown a Black Canary story for Sara that flows organically, but, if they make Laurel the Black Canary, it makes no sense whatsoever, based on the story told so far.

 

It worries me that, in one of the Arrow EPs' interviews, the EP (don't remember which one) invoked Joss Whedon and said something like they give the fans what they (the fans) need and not what they want.  Not everyone can do what Joss Whedon does.

 

If the jacket transfer does foreshadow Laurel becoming the Black Canary, then it means either the EPs are so arrogant that they think the viewers will accept whoever dons the black leather or the EPs/CW execs have some contractual (or maybe personal) obligation to Katie Cassidy.

Edited June 2, 2014 by tv echo

[SonofaBiscuit]

Maybe Arrow can hire Caity Lotz as the stuntwoman to play Black Canary and she can whisper, "You stole my life" in Katie Cassidy's ear.  No, I do not want this, and I know that I probably shouldn't even put it out in the universe.

[icandigit]

 

Not everyone can do what Joss Whedon does.

Sometimes Joss Whedon shouldn't do what Joss Whedon does.

[slayer2]

Sometimes Joss Whedon shouldn't do what Joss Whedon does.

Lolz, I'm looking at you Dawn.

I honestly think CL will be back for sure otherwise they would have just answered already. I'll bet Comic-con will be the massive reveal {although Caity's been to a few Comic-cons thus far this month}. I think TPTB are pretty good at catching fish and I'm sure they've been throwing out the net for this one since early morning.

[Starfish35]

Sometimes Joss Whedon shouldn't do what Joss Whedon does.

LOL truth, although he's earned a bit more leeway with me than Kreisberg and Guggenheim have at this point.

My fear is not that CL won't be back. I'm sure she'll be back, although I'm struggling a bit to see how she'll fit in as a regular if she's no longer Black Canary. I'm just afraid they're going to make her an antagonist/villain so that Laurel can be the contrasting hero.

[statsgirl]

Given how much Sara has struggled with good vs bad and was willing to commit suicide rather than return to the LoA, and how vulnerable she's been at times, at this point I don't think I would buy her as a villain even if the show tried to push her that way.  For me, a person has to be heartless (the Count, Amanda Waller), batshitcrazy (Malcolm Merlyn) or mirakiru'ed up (Slade) for me to accept him or her as a villain, especially on this cartoon show.

[BkWurm1]

I'm really wondering if/how what's happening over in the current Green Arrow comic will affect Arrow and Sara specifically since Canary in the comics is supposed to be battling for control of the LoA.  If the Black Canary can do this it makes it hard for me to see why Sara can't as well.  It's like the comic people are just begging Arrow to let Sara stay Canary.  The already offered up a fix to where she's at right now. 

 

I expect that at ComicCon Sara's big reveal will be that she'll take up some other name and as badass as that might have the potential to be, it still is going to feel like a loss since she already embodied Canary to me. 

[tv echo]

I agree that Joss Whedon is not infallible, but he's done a lot of good TV for over a decade (Firefly being one of my all-time favorites).  He's earned a lot more credit with me than Kreisberg and Guggenheim - whose past two years of Arrow have demonstrated inconsistent character development, bad casting, and sometimes incoherent story lines.  Dropping Sara as the Black Canary would just put more "red in [their] ledger".

[Sakura12]

Joss Whedon is a character writer, his storylines may not always be the greatest but most of his characters are. He's earned the praise he gets from that. Kreisberg and Guugenheim are nowhere near him and this season of Arrow has proved that. It was a complete mess that regressed most of the characters. They have shiny action scenes and that's about it. I guess that's enough for some people that's why Arrow still gets praise but I watch shows for the characters first. Great actions scenes can only distract me from terrible storytelling for so long.

[Password]

@Sakura12 I totally agree with you, but for a while the storylines were really compelling. I really cheered for Oliver and his journey and felt connections to the characters. It was really the second half of s2 that things went offline for the storyline. I hope s3 brings back what worked so well for the second half of s1 and the first of s2.

[slayer2]

Joss is a genius character and storywise IMO, he ruined me for other shows for a long while. These Arrow guys have their moments but I'd never deem to compare them to Joss. Also if Joss were writing Sara, the anti- LOA then pro-LOA wouldn't have happened under Joss for sure and the lack of DiDs would also be staggering. Joss would have a field day with a character like Sara. Great, now I'm sad I'll never see it.

[Sakura12]

If Joss was writing this show we'd have a character named Dinah Lance who had her own personality. She'd be her own character, not just a love interest. She'd get herself out of her damseled situations then be helped by the hero. Basically we'd have a better version of Sara from the beginning of the season.

 

To me Joss has a way of bringing out the best from actors, even when they are not that good at acting. Take Eliza Dushku, she's not the best actor but she is Faith. To the point where I can't even imagine anyone else playing her. Joss manages to write for the actors strengths and injects a humor to all his characters that feels natural. There is nothing forced about the way his characters interact with each other. That is usually the best part, seeing characters that don't have much in common bond over something or just have a conversation about not having anything in common. 

 

Now I want to see what Joss could do with Caity. He'd love to work with a action capable actress like her for a strong female character. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

Maybe season three will see Sara go dark and Laurel become Black Canary.  But then in a twist, Laurel dies and this is the motivation for Sara to redeem herself and come back and honor her sister by taking up the mantle of Black Canary (again).

[strikera0]

If Sara/Caity is a regular next season, I would imagine that she's signed to a 12 or 13-episode contract. After the way last season ended (Sara returning to the LoA), I can't imagine her as a 20-episode character. The center of her life happens to be on a different continent now. And if the writers are smart, they would try to keep her appearances to a minimum anyway because with Laurel on track to become instaBC, Sara's presence would only be a painful reminder of how much she pales in comparison.

Edited June 3, 2014 by strikera0

[statsgirl]

I agree, also because I think Sara/BC works more effectively in short, strong doses. I loved her in Heir to the Demon but by Birds of Prey, with Sara in the Arrow story, the Lance family drama story and also in the flashbacks, I was ready to cut her screen time down. 

I'm really wondering if/how what's happening over in the current Green Arrow comic will affect Arrow and Sara specifically since Canary in the comics is supposed to be battling for control of the LoA.  If the Black Canary can do this it makes it hard for me to see why Sara can't as well.  It's like the comic people are just begging Arrow to let Sara stay Canary.  They already offered up a fix to where she's at right now. 

My theory is that they are lining the comics up with what's going to happen on the TV show rather than the other way around. Right now the show is generating more buzz than the comics.  They're already brought Diggle, a show-creation, into the comics.

[FurryFury]

Joss Whedon is a character writer, his storylines may not always be the greatest but most of his characters are. He's earned the praise he gets from that. Kreisberg and Guugenheim are nowhere near him and this season of Arrow has proved that. It was a complete mess that regressed most of the characters. They have shiny action scenes and that's about it. I guess that's enough for some people that's why Arrow still gets praise but I watch shows for the characters first. Great actions scenes can only distract me from terrible storytelling for so long.

 

Amen. And hell, plot-wise, seasons 2 and 3 of Buffy are miles above anything I've seen on Arrow. There were some missteps here and there, but even season 6 of Buffy, which I refuse to rewatch, had a few great moments. The only stuff I've liked in the latter half of s2 was "Suicide Squad" and parts of "The Promise" (mostly stunt work and Manu Bennet's acting), which really is not enough.

[icandigit]

i just want to say for the record. That Joss Whedon is the person that has had the most influence in how I watch tv. I can't even watch  tv the way I used to watch pre-Buffy. He raised my expectations to a level that has forever interfered with how I watch tv in a good way. But, I don't always agree with his give them what they need thing. So I kid because I love.

[calliope1975]

But, if Sara were giving her jacket to anyone for safe keeping, wouldn't it have been Felicity?

 

 

The Relationship thread got a bit derailed talking about who Sara should have given her jacket to, and I've decided she shouldn't have given it to anyone. Girlfriend should've kept it. She earned it (if we're assuming the jacket represents Black Canary) through blood, sweat, and I assume tears. Any other superheroes need to earn their own status as well.

[SmallScreenDiva]

I agree, also because I think Sara/BC works more effectively in short, strong doses.

 

Me, too. Maybe a couple of really strong mini-arcs? A two-parter near the beginning of the season and another maybe sometime in the middle to set up whatever they're doing for the end (I'm imagining a big LoA finale here). I really like her, but it got a little too much when she was in the present AND in the flashbacks. Didn't help, of course, that Team Arrow got moved to the background for the entire Lance Family Drama, so that made me even more resentful.

[calliope1975]

The "no woman should suffer at the hands of men", and "I don't like that word" when Bronze Tiger called her a bitch, etc points to some kind of sexual abuse//rape/threat of rape was used as torture/coercion against Sara.

 

 

Brought over from the Relationships thread. I do think Sara was sexually abused/raped/etc, but I understand why the show wouldn't want to go there. The writers can barely deal with the non-heavy story lines. I have no faith they'd do this topic justice.

 

I suppose it could have happened once she met up with the LoA, but I never got the impression that that's how the LoA works. And I am basing that assumption on absolutely nothing since they have no problem using poison and threats of murder/murder so...I'm not quite sure why I believe that. But for whatever reason, I have no problem believing those mercs with Ivo or even Ivo himself assaulted her. I actually find it more unbelievable that it didn't happen. 

 

I know Arrow is Oliver's story and since he has now watched Sara die for a 2nd time in the past, we won't be seeing anymore of her journey on how she became Black Canary. I hope I'm wrong, though, because I think that could be really interesting. I'd love one or two episodes (since I don't know what the odds are realistically of getting a BoP spin-off are) that explores Sara's life from "drowning" by the Amazo to turning back up in Starling City.

[abhi]

Regarding Sara's past with the LOA, someone on Twitter had asked Marc Guggenheim whether we will be seeing Sara's flashback with the League in the 3rd Season and he had replied that they were talking about it. So, I expect some of the flashbacks dealing with it. And since John Barrowman is a regular, we might also see Malcom's flashback with the LOA since I suppose that the same setting could be used for their flashback. 

[statsgirl]

Merlyn's time with the LoA was before Sara's since he was back in Starling City and causing the ship to sink, but he could have traveled back to confer with Ra's Al Ghul and run into Sara there.  It would make an interesting twist if Sara were to have encountered him in one of her flashbacks.

[Sakura12]

I always wanted them to reveal that Malcolm and Sara worked together while in the League, because I think that would've been interesting. But they said that he left before Sara joined. 

 

Another storyline they could do, is since the LOA is after Malcolm, they could take Thea to Nanda Parbat to get back at him. She discovers that Sara's one of them and Sara helps her escape and that's what brings them both back to Starling City. (kind of like Sin and Dinah's story from the comics)