Manhattan - General Discussion

[Clanstarling]

"I wonder also about the choice to show uniformed service people having sex with the scientific staff (pun not intended), but only the females being depicted as whores."

 

NorthstarATL, this has been bothering me for the last two shows.

 

It is too close to a rant a relative of mine used to make about military nurses he knew in Korea. I never believed it, as I'd had years of knowing how this relative responded to women in general, and it is a common go-to insult to women who refuse someone's advances.

 

I wonder where the writers got this tidbit. I wouldn't be surprised if the source was someone like my relative.

[dubbel zout]

I was surprised to see that Frank was such a good cook.

That was one reason Liza married him. ;-)

[some1105]

 

"I wonder also about the choice to show uniformed service people having sex with the scientific staff (pun not intended), but only the females being depicted as whores."

I'm really not trying to be glib here, but I think the difference has to do with the literal difference between whore and not-whore--the exchange of money.  

 

Helen's not paying, and I actually liked the relatively matter-of-fact way her liaison was dealt with.  I didn't think there was any prudery around her getting her needs met as she chose, but if the dude required her to pay, he'd be a whore.  If Fritz's lady stops taking money for sex, she'll no longer be a whore.  The whole practice doesn't even seem to have a lot of shame attached to it in our fictional Los Alamos.  The way it's been presented (at least so far) bothers me not at all.  Pure supply and demand--the women selling sex as a sideline have a scarce and marketable good; Helen can get laid as she likes.  Thus, the women get paid and the men do the paying.  There's been no indication that anyone is doing anything they don't want to do.

 

Disclaimer: my reaction has everything to do with the world of the show being a specific, closed environment, and my views don't translate to a commentary on prostitution in society at large, then or now.

[NorthstarATL]

I'm really not trying to be glib here, but I think the difference has to do with the literal difference between whore and not-whore--the exchange of money.  

 

Helen's not paying, and I actually liked the relatively matter-of-fact way her liaison was dealt with.  I didn't think there was any prudery around her getting her needs met as she chose, but if the dude required her to pay, he'd be a whore.  If Fritz's lady stops taking money for sex, she'll no longer be a whore.  The whole practice doesn't even seem to have a lot of shame attached to it in our fictional Los Alamos.  The way it's been presented (at least so far) bothers me not at all.  Pure supply and demand--the women selling sex as a sideline have a scarce and marketable good; Helen can get laid as she likes.  Thus, the women get paid and the men do the paying.  There's been no indication that anyone is doing anything they don't want to do.

 

Disclaimer: my reaction has everything to do with the world of the show being a specific, closed environment, and my views don't translate to a commentary on prostitution in society at large, then or now.

Oh, I understand the definition of whoring. It would be perfectly understandable for uniform personnel to have some healthy extracurricular sexual activity, such as was demonstrated by the male soldier. There just seemed to be an implication in the previous episode especially that the female uniforms were whoring. I tend to wonder how women who may have worn the uniform during that period would feel about the accuracy of the portrayal. (Unless whores were brought in and passed off as uniformed personnel? Which must break some sort of regulation, I'd wager.)

[ganesh]

I wonder if that paragraph was why Frank rejected Charlie's dissertation.

 

A dissertation and publishing a paper are two different entities. The paper would have to be vetted by several outside people. Today, it's anonymous. I don't know back then though with not many people in the field. But that paragraph would warrant rejection. You can dinged for self-plagarism now if you can believe that. Nowadays you have to provide reasons. Someone of Frank's stature might not have to back then either. 

[Tim McD]

Did anyone else catch Helen ordering Charlie to put the luggage in the cab? Way to assert yourself at the outset Helen! I hope they don't bump uglies next episode, that would be too predictable.

[dubbel zout]

There just seemed to be an implication in the previous episode especially that the female uniforms were whoring.

 

Helen didn't present the women to Fritz in a judgmental way. I appreciated that.

 

I think the prostitutes being mostly women in uniform had to do with proximity—the day workers were just that, so weren't around at night. I also wonder how many civilian women worked there as support staff (of the nondomestic sort). It might just be a numbers game, as it were.

Edited September 3, 2014 by dubbel zout

[shapeshifter]

...the prostitutes being mostly women in uniform...

Is this based on historical facts of the time and place?!?

[ganesh]

The Nazis felt that the time required to develop a bomb wouldn't lead to a weapon in time.

 

I do believe they also thought that more material was needed than actually was. I think they leaked/faked that information. But that really wasn't the point. It still was a race and the Allies *had* to make the bomb first.

 

I was pleased to see Frank Get Shit Done and was actually concerned about the guy's health. I was also pleased that Charlie was so safety conscious at Oak Ridge. A bad accident happened in Japan in 1999 because people were carrying around liquid uranium and put too much of it together. 

 

I was incredulous when Frank called and the phone rang in the other room. I thought Frank was going to wrap the phone around someone's face and strangle them. 

[Rhetorica]

I appreciateed the B stories about the de facto discrimination of women and people of color at that time. I also liked Charlie's epiphany while stranded on the road. There were some heavy topics tonight, abortion, adultery, homosexuality. I would have preferred the gaget plot moved along rather than the relationships, however. 

Here's a site about African-American participants in the Manhattan project. All men, of course.

http://www.blackpast.org/aah/black-history-month-special-feature-2012-scientists-and-technicians-manhattan-project

And here's one on women:

http://www.atomicheritage.org/article/women-scientists-manhattan-project

[shapeshifter]

My heart fell when Helen put Theodore's envelope to Frank in the circular file. So much for the tide lifting all boats.

All the women in this episode seemed to be shown in an unfavorable light.

The French neighbor, Winter's daughter, and Helen lead Abby, Iowa, and Charlie astray respectively. Liza, Paloma, and Abby having no real agency in spite of their attempts to claim some.

Edited September 9, 2014 by shapeshifter

[NorthstarATL]

 

My heart fell when Helen put Thomas' envelope to Frank in the circular file.

Yeah, i kind of saw that coming. It's too bad that both she and Theo seemed to accept their being categorized by gender and race, rather than selling themselves based upon their own individual abilities, and that she undercut him for that very reason. True, the 'establishment' was setting the parameters, but they were adhered to longer than they might have been by everyone playing along.

        When Abby and her neighbor introduced themselves as newly transferred WACs, it occurred to me that 'in show' categorizing would allow the guy plying them with drink to assume that they were prostitutes.

[shapeshifter]

...I would have preferred the gaget plot moved along rather than the relationships, however. 

I was okay with the near-meltdown in Tennessee taking the place of the gadget this week, but yes, the relationships overshadowed it a little too much.

[peeayebee]

I was confused about something -- Just before we see Charlie sitting in the hotel room with Helen, we get a flash of them kissing passionately. Was he just imagining this? If it really happened, then it was a weird way of showing it.

[dubbel zout]

My heart fell when Helen put Thomas' envelope to Frank in the circular file.

Yeah, i kind of saw that coming.

 

After Helen told Charlie that a black man would be hired by a university before a woman, I kind of figured that letter was doomed, "a rising tide lifts all boats" or not.

 

I was thinking about that later, though, and wouldn't a woman's college want to hire her? Why couldn't she get a job at Radcliffe or Barnard or the like?

[shapeshifter]

I was confused about something -- Just before we see Charlie sitting in the hotel room with Helen, we get a flash of them kissing passionately. Was he just imagining this? If it really happened, then it was a weird way of showing it.

I am equally confused.

Helen tossing Theodore's letter makes me wonder what happened to the letter that Liza gave to Paloma. They were also rivals.

[Ripley68]

I'm pretty sure he was imagining it than.  I was wondering about the time the guy knocked on the door and it took them a long time to answer....if anything went down, that is when I think it did.

 

What do you think Dr. Wife is going to do now that she's pretty sure hubby cheated on her?

[bentley]

 

What do you think Dr. Wife is going to do now that she's pretty sure hubby cheated on her?

 

I think she showed what she's going to do: nothing. She'll turn a blind eye and make the occasional oblique comment just to make sure he knows she knows.  I wonder now that it's kinda sorta out in the open, if this takes away any potential leverage from what's-his-face (Richard Schiff) who is investigating Frank. It was never real clear to me what they were trying to prove he was doing anyway.

 

I thought Charlie was a little cold to Helen when they got base to the base. Is he blaming her for his lascivious thoughts?

 

Helen's character just seems all kind of wrong for this time period. She's too liberated, independent, sexually aggressive. It's like they plopped a 21st century woman into a 1940's drama.

[NorthstarATL]

 

I was thinking about that later, though, and wouldn't a woman's college want to hire her? Why couldn't she get a job at Radcliffe or Barnard or the like?

She probably could, but it would still be limiting her prospects, as those positions were neither as well paid or as well respected.

[dubbel zout]

I wonder now that it's kinda sorta out in the open, if this takes away any potential leverage from what's-his-face (Richard Schiff) who is investigating Frank. It was never real clear to me what they were trying to prove he was doing anyway.

I think Schiff is trying to find anything on Frank. He's mad at Frank for interfering with Sid's case. Technically, having an affair with a day worker was a security risk.

 

Helen's character just seems all kind of wrong for this time period. She's too liberated, independent, sexually aggressive. It's like they plopped a 21st century woman into a 1940's drama.

I disagree. There have always been women pushing social boundaries, in every era. That's the only way things can change.

[Tim McD]

The show seems to be veering into teenage soap-opera territory, which is a shame. I can do without all the nonsensical bed-hopping. And somebody needs to tell the writers that throwing a half-assed lesbian affair into the storyline is just plain lazy; I half expected to see Doug Stamper peering thorough the curtains.

 

Why are Charlie and Abby even married? Do they know each other? Have they been introduced? Helen, who was awesome when she was helping Fritz to get laid, is turning into a sad joke. The story arc with Frank & Liza's daughter and the private seems to be sputtering and who the hell cares about this goddam French lady? Fortunately it's not too late and here's to hoping that Manhattan returns to more grown-up storytelling.

I was confused about something -- Just before we see Charlie sitting in the hotel room with Helen, we get a flash of them kissing passionately. Was he just imagining this? If it really happened, then it was a weird way of showing it.

 

 

I took it to be Charlie's drunken fantasizing. Helen yammering on about "The Wrong Brothers" brought him back to reality.

[peeayebee]

I'm pretty tired of the relationships. Even though I don't understand the science, I find that part of the show more interesting. 

 

Just to clarify: Didn't the "French" woman reveal to Abby that it was all an act? I thought she dropped her accent.

[OnceSane]

Charlie and Frank both face serious questions about the future of their projects.

 

[shapeshifter]

I'm pretty tired of the relationships. Even though I don't understand the science, I find that part of the show more interesting. 

 

Just to clarify: Didn't the "French" woman reveal to Abby that it was all an act? I thought she dropped her accent.

The noisy orgasms were an act. Did she also drop her accent? I didn't notice.

[Lawgiver]

Is any character on this show likeable, save for Liza Winter? I'm enjoying the show so far, mostly because I've been to Los Alamos a number of times and find the early history fascinating, plus the New Mexican landscape is beautiful.

 

And all I could think of when I saw the head of the nuclear reactor was bald Stephen Fry with a "I said, 'Good day, Suh!'" accent.

[pasdetrois]

 

The show seems to be veering into teenage soap-opera territory, which is a shame. I can do without all the nonsensical bed-hopping.

 

I am so disappointed that the show has lurched off into this direction. And some of the acting is atrocious.

 

It appears to me that the writers are attempting to clumsily make Paloma and her community Navajo/Latino; they don't seem to understand that Latinos and natives in NM are two different cultures. The vague references to Paloma and her people wandering off to native spiritual land, unaccompanied by the white people, seemed to be an attempt at Navajo tradition. Yet Paloma speaks Spanish. The Navajos speak their own language and English.

Edited September 11, 2014 by pasdetrois

[peeayebee]

Yes, this has been confusing me. I thought they were from Mexico, then Native-American, then… I just didn't (don't) understand.

[ganesh]

This was not good.

 

I don't like Charlie's wife leaping to the conclusion that he's having an affair and lying to her since she should well understand that there's a lot he can talk about by now. The scene with her fishing for info on Helen was embarrassing. 

 

Similarly, *of course* Helen had an abortion. Because you can't write a woman on tv without Babeh Issues. I would have settled for a semi-arrogant, "I never met a man as smart as me or who wasn't scared of my PhD. Until then, I have shit to do. So whatever."

 

I was okay with the near-meltdown in Tennessee taking the place of the gadget this week, but yes, the relationships overshadowed it a little too much.

 

As someone who does know what they're talking about, I think they did a good job. Though it was under the squash court with Fermi, not the football field. Dramatic license. 

[Rhetorica]

I just don't understand why shows veer off from the main plot. I know this is an account of fictional people but stick to their storylines of living and working in the conditions. If I wanted relationship angst, I would go to Lifetime-and I don't. Even in The Strain, the two main characters decided to stop for a romantic interlude during the vampire apocalypse. Just stupid.

Edited to add, this post may not make a bit of sense. Brain is still addled...

Edited September 12, 2014 by Rhetorica

[Cgr]

I too could have done without some of the bed scenes.  And I think Abby--think that is her name--would have been repulsed by the lesbian kiss.  She just seems too straight for that.  

 

Girl Scouts sold calendars during the war due to sugar rationing.  I looked it up!  

 

I'm sure it has been mentioned here but this is the first time I am posting to this show.  But The Girls of Atomic City is a must read if you want the Oak Ridge side of the story told by women.  I just finished reading it for the second time.  

[Rhetorica]

So are we back to the project? No more gratuitous sex?

[peeayebee]

More interesting than last week. I figured we'd eventually get to the point where Charlie and Frank were working together.

[some1105]

There are any number of issues I could raise with this or any episode.   And yet, when the credits roll, I always find myself shaking my head and saying "god, I love this show."

 

I'm worried this season is all there will be, and I find myself ever less critical, and increasingly thrilled just to get to watch Daniel Stern and Olivia Williams play quietly against type off each other, Harry Lloyd wobbling along toward various redemptions, JBH and Ashley Zukerman simultaneously and constantly pissing me off while making me re-think my views on morality and war.  It's far from consistent, but there is really good work happening on this show, and I will miss it if it goes.

[bentley]

I thought it was interesting that despite their every encounter being acrimonious, Charlie felt he could only go to Frank with this major problem. Now I can't wait to see what will happen next. Will those two collaborate to come up with a new idea? Or will they help each other make their respective projects work? No matter what, I don't see how Charlie is going to get out of telling his boss the truth.

[kay1864]

Were they violating security protocols by talking about implosion design with Hogarth, in front of the soldiers?  I thought they were allowed to discuss that sort of thing only with scientists around, and only in their research buildings.

[dubbel zout]

thought it was interesting that despite their every encounter being acrimonious, Charlie felt he could only go to Frank with this major problem.

 

I know. I also like that Frank took Charlie seriously. Frank can be a complete asshole, but he also is totally committed to the project.

 

Were they violating security protocols by talking about implosion design with Hogarth, in front of the soldiers?  I thought they were allowed to discuss that sort of thing only with scientists around, and only in their research buildings.

 

They probably were violating protocol, but for dramatic purposes, that scene had to happen while Hogarth still had his pants down, as it were. Eesh, he was a pig.

 

I wonder how base security found out Abby was on that train. She had a valid day pass to Santa Fe. Maybe the top scientists' wives are under observation whenever they leave the base? I know that was ultimately a setup for her (and the audience, by extension) to learn how ghastly things were for the European Jews, but I don't really see her suddenly dedicating herself to the cause.

 

I don't care about Paul's checkered past, and I'm glad Frank doesn't, either. I Wikied Harry Lloyd, and it turns out he's a great-great-great-grandson of Charles Dickens. If it's true the British scientists used Dickens's character names as aliases, that's a fantastic inside joke.

[Julie23]

Finally - Charlie and Frank working together! I can't wait for next Sunday!

[Broderbits]

This was a riveting episode and I,too, hope this series continues for another season. The Abby storyline made her more human; that wide-eyed innocence was grating on me. The fact that she was quick enough to use her relatives' distress to get herself out of trouble, but then actually read the file and opened her eyes to reality, showed growth. 

 

The WACs aren't getting a very balanced portrayal; surely they weren't all working the same side job!

[mjc570]

I very much liked this episode, since it focused on the work - the character aspects (Glenn helping Liza, Paul's rather sordid past, Abby finally learning something) were all appropriate and advanced the story. 

Does anyone know who played Dr. Hogarth?  Not on IMDB yet, but he is very familiar.

Much as I  like this show, I can't imagine it will be picked up or renewed.

[buckboard]

Bill Camp plays Dr. Hogarth.  In recent years, he's been in "12 Years a Slave" and "Damages."  Could his character have been more disgusting?

[mjc570]

Thanks, buckboard --:)

[shapeshifter]

This episode lived up to the potential for me, showing Charlie's unwillingness to unleash something that would kill millions, and then deciding it was worth it to save millions--plus his haunted look.

I guess at this point renewal hinges on how expensive it is to make--which shouldn't be too bad. Right?

[bentley]

i was interested in the British invasion this episode because someone in a prior episode thread said that IRL, the Brits came up with the formula or invention or whatever it is that finally made implosion work. Anyone else remember that? So I'm wondering if the answer is hidden in all those notes they turned over, or if the "A team" who couldn't be bothered to come are the ones who hold the key. I'd love to see that British bounder (I just love that word) proven wrong.

 

I also thought Charlie's playing out of the scene with his boss if he confessed was interesting. Does he think the guy is a closet anti-Semite? Or does he think that when you're Jewish that's how all arguments end, with the accusation...Which makes it all the funnier that he would go to Frank for help. Apparently he thinks Frank hates him for all the right reasons lol.

 

The mindset regarding mental illness in this time period is fascinating. A "disorder of the mind" could be anything from minor depression to schizophrenia or anything in between. The army doesn't seem to care what it was. You're tainted goods.

 

 

I guess at this point renewal hinges on how expensive it is to make--which shouldn't be too bad.

 

I'm banking on the fact this is a prestigious, critically acclaimed show on a network that is trying to establish a presence in original television programming.*fingers crossed*

Edited September 16, 2014 by bentley

[shapeshifter]

I also thought Charlie's playing out of the scene with his boss if he confessed was interesting. Does he think the guy is a closet anti-Semite? Or does he think that when you're Jewish that's how all arguments end, with the accusation...

Mileage varies, of course, but I thought that was the best bit in the episode. It seemed very accurate both with regards to what Charlie would imagine and what could really happen if he spoke up.

IIRC, Akely expressed in an earlier episode that he wasn't in a hurry--but did Charlie hear it?

And did Frank tell Charlie about his personal belief that they had to hurry to build the bomb to save lives? Or does Charlie not know about Frank's philosophical views on the subject. I watch too much TV and don't recall.

I'm not personally glad they used nuclear energy to create bombs, but the show does an excellent job of explaining why it was done.

My former home town got burned off the map a few hours ago in California, which makes the devastation of the bomb seem more up close and personal to me on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of Japanese civilians who were vaporized.

Edited September 16, 2014 by shapeshifter

[OnceSane]

 

Frank and Charlie hatch a plan.

 

[pasdetrois]

Great episode with the key story moving forward. Does anyone know if the government and scientists were truly concerned with the Holocaust at that time? I asked because in all my years of reading about the Holocaust, I got the impression that Roosevelt and others turned a blind eye to what was happening. Maybe the episode was trying to tell us that only Charley was aware of the persecution of the Jews because he saw the classified evidence.

 

I wish they didn't emphasize the lady physicist constantly inviting her colleagues into bed. It diminishes her character and intelligence.

 

Also, scores of WACs working as prostitutes also seems implausible.

 

Will be interesting to see what job the writers put the lady botanist into.

 

Fun to see that Daniel Stern directed this episode.

[dubbel zout]

I also thought Charlie's playing out of the scene with his boss if he confessed was interesting. Does he think the guy is a closet anti-Semite?

 

I thought that scene was really interesting, too, especially given how many refugee scientists were Jewish.

 

I'm not personally glad they used nuclear energy to create bombs, but the show does an excellent job of explaining why it was done.

 

The show also does a good job of showing how horribly inevitable the bomb was. It was going to be created; it was just a matter of who would do it first.

Edited September 16, 2014 by dubbel zout

[Emily Thrace]

Great episode with the key story moving forward. Does anyone know if the government and scientists were truly concerned with the Holocaust at that time? I asked because in all my years of reading about the Holocaust, I got the impression that Roosevelt and others turned a blind eye to what was happening. Maybe the episode was trying to tell us that only Charley was aware of the persecution of the Jews because he saw the classified evidence

It was fairly well known thing amongst american Jews. The issue was one of comprehension more than anything, people literally could not imagine how or even why Hitler was killing all these people.A lot of higher ups assumed he was simply using them for slave labour. Nothing like the Holocaust had ever happened before, People truly could not comprehend the scale and effeciency and effort the Nazi's put into murder.  The only examples of that kind of loss of life, I can think of that Americans might have heard of is the Great Famine in Ireland or maybe the Amernian Massacre(that one still isn't very well known) .The Famine was over a hundred years ago and unless you were Irish it wasn't something people would have heard much about. Some of the miliatary and other types who were around for WW1 might be familiar with the Armenian massacre and that's pretty much what a lot of them thought was happening. That for the most part the Jews were just being forcibly relocated and the actual killing were a result of poor treatment or smaller scale massacres from low level SS. I know I've heard more than one historical account say that Roosevelt didn't truly understand the extent of the Holocaust until he saw the film reels of the liberation of Buchenwald. There were definitely people who understood or at least supected what was going on but they definitely a minority and were often dismissed.

 

I also thought Charlie's playing out of the scene with his boss if he confessed was interesting. Does he think the guy is a closet anti-Semite? Or does he think that when you're Jewish that's how all arguments end, with the accusation.

I think Charlie is right about Aikley being anti-semtic. Maybe not overtly but in the annoying "Your one of the good ones" patronizing way that is common in people who like to think of themselves as tolerant. The fact that he mentions Charlie is Jewish in almost every conversation they have is a red flag.I don't think he would deliberately treat Charlie badly or veiw him as untrustworthy but he certinaly expects a huge pat on the back for treating Charlie as useful. I also think if Charlie wasn't as useful to Aikley he would treat him very differently. Like a lot of men of his time Aikley respects Charlie as long as he doesn't challenge Aikley's worldview and ask to treated as an equal.

 

Although Charlie does have something of inferiority complex about his religion but growing up where he did when he did I don't really blame him. Oddly I tihnk that's why he respect Winters because Winter's hates for what he did and doesn't give a damn about his religion. Although I think Frank is meant to be Irish which is almost the same thing as being Jewish in this time period. He certianly has a very catholic relationship with guilt and like Charlie it explains why he has such a chip on his soldier.

 

I have to say Crowley is becoming on of my favourite characters. He's funny and a lot more complex than most of the others in Frank's group. Although I'm trying not to roll my eyes at another of Frank's group being a misfit.

Edited September 18, 2014 by Emily Thrace

[dubbel zout]

maybe the Amernian Massacre(that one still isn't very well known)

 

Hitler himself said, "Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?"

 

He certianly has a very catholic relationship with guilt and like Charlie it explains why he has such a chip on his soldier.

I think the chip on Frank's shoulder is due to professional setbacks and slights, not religion. After all, he's on the Los Alamos B team (if it's even that), getting little respect and no support.

 

I think Frank is probably an atheist.

[Tim McD]

Watching this episode I noticed for the first time how much Helen resembles Bailey Quarters from WKRP in Cincinnati.