S14.E10: Nihilism

[MysteryGuest]

I was finally able to watch the episode.  I always enjoy when the majority of the action surrounds TFW, so I was happy.  Jensen did a great job.  Michael is a dick, just like all of the other angels, except Cas.  Chuck isn't going to get any father-of-the-year awards in any universe, apparently.

I hope that the monster that came into the bar was supposed to be a bit cartoonish in his delivery, because it was really bad, otherwise.  It was great to see Pamela.  I always liked her and her relationship with the boys and Bobby.  I think the bar scenes were my favorites in the episode.

Sadly, I'm just really over the whole archangel storyline.  I'm was sick of Lucifer, and Michael is just more of the same for me.  

It did seem strange to me that Maggie was leading the charge of the other hunters.  She obviously wasn't the only one out there, but I'm just not impressed with her character.  I'd much rather it had been Mary and Bobby, or even Ketch, or some of the more "regular" cast members.  I know they don't want to pay them, but there wasn't even a mention of Mary and Bobby.  Are they still just off in the woods, getting to know one another?  This is where the writing drives me crazy.  There's no way they wouldn't be involved in what's going on with Dean.  

[gonzosgirrl]

54 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I hope that the monster that came into the bar was supposed to be a bit cartoonish in his delivery, because it was really bad, otherwise.  It was great to see Pamela.  I always liked her and her relationship with the boys and Bobby.  I think the bar scenes were my favorites in the episode.

I do think that everything in the bar was meant to be somewhat hyper-realistic and the villains rather cartoonish. The aggressive agent trying to get him to sell the bar was the same. I think both were intentional.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

So, when exactly did Michael change from Dean's clothes into a three-piece-suit? Was it the finger snap? Was that what he meant when he said that's what his army of monsters were waiting for? A fashion statement?

(I probably missed something given my attention span for SPN these days.)

I think the fingersnap accomplished his clothing change and the unleashing of his supermonster army.

[Res]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

It did seem strange to me that Maggie was leading the charge of the other hunters.  She obviously wasn't the only one out there, but I'm just not impressed with her character.  I'd much rather it had been Mary and Bobby, or even Ketch, or some of the more "regular" cast members.  I know they don't want to pay them, but there wasn't even a mention of Mary and Bobby.  Are they still just off in the woods, getting to know one another?  This is where the writing drives me crazy.  There's no way they wouldn't be involved in what's going on with Dean.  

I'm over Michael, except when Jensen is playing him. Then I'm all in.

If I was one of the older AU hunters "following" Maggie, I would highly suspect that she was sleeping with the "Chief" as I wouldn't be able to come up with ANY other reason for her to have seniority over me or others like me. As for Mary, I'm sure she's still with Bobby in the woods doing whatever keeps her occupied with whatever is HER priority at the moment. And, no offense to your opinion, but I have complete confidence that they would in NO way be involved in what's going on with Dean as they never really have before and AU Bobby IS NOT BOBBY!!!! 

IMHO, Mary doesn't give a rat's ass about this world's grown up Dean and I have never seen anything, except lip service, to the contrary!

Edited January 21, 2019 by Res

[Lemuria]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The aggressive agent trying to get him to sell the bar was the same.

I still think that Michael was behind that particular part of the dream and that if Dean had signed those papers, it would have been the equivalent of giving Michael an irrevocable "yes" and an ironclad hold on Dean.  JMO.

26 minutes ago, Res said:

If I was one of the older AU hunters "following" Maggie, I would highly suspect that she was sleeping with the "Chief" as I wouldn't be able to come up with ANY other reason for her to have seniority over me or others like me.

Storywise, I totally agree with you; it was as idiotic as letting her go off and hunt alone, back in the djinn episode.  I suspect they gave her the "leader" role because she's the only one the audience has seen before and would recognize at all.  Honestly, Sam hasn't done a great job of training these guys, especially when it comes to hitting a target:  The railing in the bunker, around the landing and then down the stairs, is an open metal-work kind of thing and all of the monsters were way taller than the railing.  Yet, the only thing that any of the hunters could hit was the railing!  Which meant that they were aiming only toward the bottom half of the beings coming down the stairs, as the top halves projected above the railing.  

They're the hunting equivalent of Imperial stormtroopers.  

32 minutes ago, Res said:

IMHO, Mary doesn't give a rat's ass about this world's grown up Dean and I have never seen anything, except lip service, to the contrary!

Yup.  And did you notice 

Spoiler

in the promo, where Sam is telling her there's something wrong with Dean because Dean hugged him and her reaction is an unconcerned "sweet," instead of asking "Why do you think that means something's wrong, Sam?  Doesn't Dean ever hug you? " To which the answer would be "Yes" but not the way we saw in the brief glimpse.  She really didn't come across as caring if something was wrong, IMO.

[MysteryGuest]

48 minutes ago, Res said:

As for Mary, I'm sure she's still with Bobby in the woods doing whatever keeps her occupied with whatever is HER priority at the moment. And, no offense to your opinion, but I have complete confidence that they would in NO way be involved in what's going on with Dean as they never really have before and AU Bobby IS NOT BOBBY!!!! 

I understand that AU Bobby isn't our Bobby, but I still think that both Mary and Bobby would be all hands on deck considering the direness of the situation.  Their absence from the episode is the typical budgetary issue that unfortunately makes no sense with the story.  I know people don't like Mary, but I disagree that she wouldn't be there immediately if she knew what was going on.  The fact that the show doesn't allow her character to do these things is just stupid, since I highly doubt their goal is to make people despise the character.  They just have no idea what to do with her character, so they inexplicably have her just "missing" during all of these crises when it really doesn't make any sense.  

[trudysmom]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I do think that everything in the bar was meant to be somewhat hyper-realistic and the villains rather cartoonish.

I agree, maybe that's why I thought the "new monsters" all along have been cartoony, like they're all wearing Billy Bob's novelty teeth.  

I loved seeing Pamela again.  I always point out to Trudysdad when a character comes back to the show after being away for awhile.  The alpha vampire, even though Sam killed him, and Pamela, the bitchy angel who tortured Cas, don't remember her name.  Loved seeing Garth, hated that Michael "turned" him. The one I wish would stay gone won't, Mark Pelligrino.  Can't have everything can we? 

I have a question.  Cas led Sam to Dean in Dean's mind, he raised his hand, it glowed, Sam heard Dean's fantasy/dream, and they found him.  But later, when Michael shows up, Cas says he can't just snap his fingers and end them all because they aren't real there, they are only manifestations in Dean's mind, or something like that.  (I've only seen it once.)  So...that seems like a contradiction to me, any thoughts? 

[BabySpinach]

A playful, exaggeratedly scandalized look. Very dramatic and extra. 10/10. 

Then a gently indulgent, almost flirty smile. He's looking at DEAN, by the way...

http://jensenackles-daily.tumblr.com/post/182114128635/michaeldean-14x10-nihilism

Nothing will convince me that Jensen wasn't intentionally playing him to be seductive and alluring. Dean's natural brand of charm is grounded, open, and approachable. Michael!Dean, on the other hand, drills a hole into your soul and pins you helplessly in place. Jensen really captured an aloof, otherworldly manner in this character.

ETA: One more, then I'm done!

Dean's smile: boyish, inviting, fully crinkly at the eyes, a little mischievous and cocky. 

Michael's smile: cold, predatory, eyes almost motionless (and bonus tongue peeking behind teeth, which is a Jensen thing, funnily enough).

http://ahoyspn.tumblr.com/post/182101856688/dean-winchester-michaeldean

Jensen hasn't pulled double duty since season 5, so this deserves some extra appreciation, damn it! It was just SO GOOD.

Edited January 21, 2019 by BabySpinach

[tennisgurl]

46 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

They just have no idea what to do with her character, so they inexplicably have her just "missing" during all of these crises when it really doesn't make any sense.  

It really only makes sense if the writers are fully behind my pet theory that Mary gives literally zero fucks about Dean, and just cant be bothered to care about what is going on with him. She gives about .5 of a fuck about Sam, as it she sometimes finders herself remembering him every one in awhile, but its not enough to actually call and see how things are, or, God forbid, come to actually try and help! I really dont think the show wants me to think of Mary as a shitty mother who is more interested in playing house with her boyfriend than being involved in her sons lives and various traumas, and hasn't cared about them very much since she sold baby Sam to a demon, and has consistently been a terrible judge of character and hilariously easy to manipulate and brainwash, and is more invested in random people off the street than her own family, but when they dont even drop a line about how Mary is busy with some other important thing and thats why she cant even call her sons back to see how they're doing, what am I supposed to think?

Unfair? Maybe. What it often comes off as to me, especially lately? Oh yeah.

[MysteryGuest]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

It really only makes sense if the writers are fully behind my pet theory that Mary gives literally zero fucks about Dean, and just cant be bothered to care about what is going on with him. She gives about .5 of a fuck about Sam, as it she sometimes finders herself remembering him every one in awhile, but its not enough to actually call and see how things are, or, God forbid, come to actually try and help! I really dont think the show wants me to think of Mary as a shitty mother who is more interested in playing house with her boyfriend than being involved in her sons lives and various traumas, and hasn't cared about them very much since she sold baby Sam to a demon, and has consistently been a terrible judge of character and hilariously easy to manipulate and brainwash, and is more invested in random people off the street than her own family, but when they dont even drop a line about how Mary is busy with some other important thing and thats why she cant even call her sons back to see how they're doing, what am I supposed to think?

Unfair? Maybe. What it often comes off as to me, especially lately? Oh yeah.

That's my whole point.  I don't think they're deliberately trying make her into Mommy Dearest, but they certainly aren't doing her character any favors with their writing.

[juppschmitz]

8 hours ago, SueB said:

Yes he changed clothes with the finger snap but that also signaled the Attack. That’s why we heard the ambulances and fire trucks in the background. 

 

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think the fingersnap accomplished his clothing change and the unleashing of his supermonster army.

Ok, but that makes his hand-to-hand fight with Kaia even stupider. Why didn't he just snap his fingers (dramatically) and break the spear? (And Kaia's neck, too, while he was at it?)

Seriously, whichever writer came up with the idea of that fight needs to be fired.

[juppschmitz]

4 hours ago, trudysmom said:

I agree, maybe that's why I thought the "new monsters" all along have been cartoony, like they're all wearing Billy Bob's novelty teeth.  

I loved seeing Pamela again.  I always point out to Trudysdad when a character comes back to the show after being away for awhile.  The alpha vampire, even though Sam killed him, and Pamela, the bitchy angel who tortured Cas, don't remember her name.  Loved seeing Garth, hated that Michael "turned" him. The one I wish would stay gone won't, Mark Pelligrino.  Can't have everything can we? 

I have a question.  Cas led Sam to Dean in Dean's mind, he raised his hand, it glowed, Sam heard Dean's fantasy/dream, and they found him.  But later, when Michael shows up, Cas says he can't just snap his fingers and end them all because they aren't real there, they are only manifestations in Dean's mind, or something like that.  (I've only seen it once.)  So...that seems like a contradiction to me, any thoughts? 

lol you're so right. Stupid writers.

[7kstar]

5 hours ago, Lemuria said:

I still think that Michael was behind that particular part of the dream and that if Dean had signed those papers, it would have been the equivalent of giving Michael an irrevocable "yes" and an ironclad hold on Dean.  JMO.

I totally thought this when I was watching.  Of course, the writers may not agree but I thought Michael was looking for a way to trap Dean for good.

 

5 hours ago, trudysmom said:

I agree, maybe that's why I thought the "new monsters" all along have been cartoony, like they're all wearing Billy Bob's novelty teeth.  

The makeup for the new werewolves has taken me out of the story every time. I'm focusing on what is that on their mouths instead of what is happening.  Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.  Many times less is more.

[mertensia]

5 hours ago, juppschmitz said:

 

Ok, but that makes his hand-to-hand fight with Kaia even stupider. Why didn't he just snap his fingers (dramatically) and break the spear? (And Kaia's neck, too, while he was at it?)

Seriously, whichever writer came up with the idea of that fight needs to be fired.

We heard why in the episode. He wants to destroy every dimension he can until he runs down Chuck. Kaia can open them for him.

[ILoveReading]

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

We heard why in the episode. He wants to destroy every dimension he can until he runs down Chuck. Kaia can open them for him.

He still could have used powers to take the spear, there was zero reason to engage in hand to hand with her.  He could have used powers to rip the spear away and destroy it, and trapped her easily.    Same when Sam, and Cas in the bar.   If Michael truly knows Dean, he would know the best way to crush him is to kill Sam and Cas.

It seems like the writers just copy and pasted Amara's story.  This is why the writers come across as lazy.

Edited January 21, 2019 by ILoveReading

[Pondlass1]

I thought the bar 'loop' was subconscious Dean fighting against Michael. Dean would've figured it out sooner or later and started making Michael squirm all over again.  And yes, signing to sell the bar could've been some kind of done deal that locked him away.  It was all very cool and clever for a change.

Jensen is brilliant as Michael.  Thing is - they keep insinuating great evil power but then have him do stupid things. I'd rather these super beings were a bit more complex than just 'I'm going to destroy the universe'.  Michael's aspirations (as well as most other celestial super powers in every TV show or movie) seem absurd and pointless sometimes.

At least the Leviathans had a decent plan - they were going to sedate, fatten and then eat us. That's pretty terrifying.

[Myrelle]

On 1/20/2019 at 9:14 AM, Bergamot said:

Creating a scenario of contentment for Dean was Michael's attempt to distract him, to keep him quiet. And it was working, too, although I think Dean's mention of a feeling of deja vu was a sign that his mind was still fighting to get free, and he might have eventually realized what was happening, just as he did with the djinn. In any case, I don't think it ever entered Michael's mind to worry that even if he were aware, Dean might have the strength to successfully trap him the way he did. Michael was much too arrogant to realize that he had a tiger by the tail.

I think he would have figured it out eventually too-and I think the deja vu moment foretold that. That was another little, subtle writing addition that I mean to mention and that worked so well for me, too, in this one.

14 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

A playful, exaggeratedly scandalized look. Very dramatic and extra. 10/10. 

Then a gently indulgent, almost flirty smile. He's looking at DEAN, by the way...

http://jensenackles-daily.tumblr.com/post/182114128635/michaeldean-14x10-nihilism

Nothing will convince me that Jensen wasn't intentionally playing him to be seductive and alluring. Dean's natural brand of charm is grounded, open, and approachable. Michael!Dean, on the other hand, drills a hole into your soul and pins you helplessly in place. Jensen really captured an aloof, otherworldly manner in this character.

ETA: One more, then I'm done!

Dean's smile: boyish, inviting, fully crinkly at the eyes, a little mischievous and cocky. 

Michael's smile: cold, predatory, eyes almost motionless (and bonus tongue peeking behind teeth, which is a Jensen thing, funnily enough).

http://ahoyspn.tumblr.com/post/182101856688/dean-winchester-michaeldean

Jensen hasn't pulled double duty since season 5, so this deserves some extra appreciation, damn it! It was just SO GOOD.

I can't get enough.

Keep 'em coming, when you find them! ;-)

[Lemuria]

I meant to add that I really liked Violet and her "We have to have shifts because you guys just screw up 'so, so many' things."  And when Sam tried to play the "I helped you with the Rowena thing" card, she was all "Oh, the Rowena 'thing' that you created?"  Hee.

Definitely a keeper.

(I also like that Yockey acknowledged that Sam was the one who gave Rowena the page that made her think she could challenge Death.)

Edited January 21, 2019 by Lemuria

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Jensen is brilliant as Michael.  Thing is - they keep insinuating great evil power but then have him do stupid things. I'd rather these super beings were a bit more complex than just 'I'm going to destroy the universe'.  Michael's aspirations (as well as most other celestial super powers in every TV show or movie) seem absurd and pointless sometimes.

I think [Michael] suffers from the same fatal flaw of all the angels, arch and other: unmitigated hubris. They just don't/won't/can't accept that they aren't all that and the bag of chips and it's been the downfall of each and every one of them.

[BabySpinach]

I'm still very impressed by how this episode set up the mytharc for the rest of the season. It established that Michael can't simply be cast out because he'd destroy Dean (out of spite?) and be free to wreak havoc again. That would have been the "easy" solution, which is now no longer viable. But Dean also can't hold Michael prisoner forever, and there are no easy ways to kill him. This all creates effective, palpable tension within the story. The characters are not only caught between a rock and a hard place, they're on a time limit as well. They don't even have the luxury of doing nothing. So we know that something big and inevitable, good or bad, is going to deeply affect one of the main characters at some point. Hoo boy! Never thought I'd feel this way about season 14, given its underwhelming start.

[juppschmitz]

1 hour ago, BabySpinach said:

I'm still very impressed by how this episode set up the mytharc for the rest of the season. It established that Michael can't simply be cast out because he'd destroy Dean (out of spite?) and be free to wreak havoc again. That would have been the "easy" solution, which is now no longer viable. But Dean also can't hold Michael prisoner forever, and there are no easy ways to kill him. This all creates effective, palpable tension within the story. The characters are not only caught between a rock and a hard place, they're on a time limit as well. They don't even have the luxury of doing nothing. So we know that something big and inevitable, good or bad, is going to deeply affect one of the main characters at some point. Hoo boy! Never thought I'd feel this way about season 14, given its underwhelming start.

So. much. potential. In the hands of such cretins.

*sigh*

[Res]

6 hours ago, BabySpinach said:

I'm still very impressed by how this episode set up the mytharc for the rest of the season. It established that Michael can't simply be cast out because he'd destroy Dean (out of spite?) and be free to wreak havoc again. That would have been the "easy" solution, which is now no longer viable. But Dean also can't hold Michael prisoner forever, and there are no easy ways to kill him. This all creates effective, palpable tension within the story. The characters are not only caught between a rock and a hard place, they're on a time limit as well. They don't even have the luxury of doing nothing. So we know that something big and inevitable, good or bad, is going to deeply affect one of the main characters at some point. Hoo boy! Never thought I'd feel this way about season 14, given its underwhelming start.

Sure. I agree, in theory, and in better writers' hands that cared I'd be right there with you. But I've been here before and I'd felt the same in season 10. I know what a huge crock that finale was IMHO so, no, there is absolutely no tension for me whatsoever. Dabb and Singer have already stated what the one guiding tenant of the series seasons is so it really doesn't matter what happens in the middle it will always end with a huge BM that the season has built up that is literally full of it and tends to crap all over all exciting expectations, leaving only the same ol, same ol. Again, IMHO. I'd love to be wrong but I really don't think I am.

[catrox14]

Upon further review, I 100% agree with Michael's anger.  When I think about it more, that God (Chuck) rewrote his own children with new versions because IMO he basically failed them, I'd be pissed too.  And the more I think about it, the more I'm not so sure it's really that bad that the boys opened a path to other worlds.  I suspect Chuck never wanted the worlds to collide because then his shitty behavior would come out of the shadows.

[BabySpinach]

On 1/21/2019 at 10:22 PM, catrox14 said:

Upon further review, I 100% agree with Michael's anger.  When I think about it more, that God (Chuck) rewrote his own children with new versions because IMO he basically failed them, I'd be pissed too.  And the more I think about it, the more I'm not so sure it's really that bad that the boys opened a path to other worlds.  I suspect Chuck never wanted the worlds to collide because then his shitty behavior would come out of the shadows.

And this is why I think Michael's anger at God works so much better than Lucifer's. Lucifer was basically mad because dad no longer favored him, threw him out of the house, and then left. His daddy issues were self-centered, small-scale, and far too mundane and generic to be all that compelling. But Michael's rage is specific to his father being the Creator. Only someone with God as their dad would be angry for this specific reason and want to carpet bomb the entire multiverse just to get back at him. The scale is much bigger and his motivation all the more compelling for the unique circumstances from which it was born. And Michael originally being the most loyal son, but never the favorite, is just salt in the wound. In a way, he's Chuck's well-deserved and long-overdue reckoning.

Edited January 25, 2019 by BabySpinach

[juppschmitz]

1 hour ago, BabySpinach said:

And this is why I think Michael's anger at God works so much better than Lucifer's. Lucifer was basically mad because dad no longer favored him, threw him out of the house, and then left. His daddy issues were self-centered, small-scale, and far too mundane and generic to be all that compelling. But Michael's rage is specific to his father being the Creator. Only someone with God as their dad would be angry for this specific reason and want to carpet bomb the entire multiverse just to get back at him. The scale is much bigger and his motivation all the more compelling for the unique circumstances from which it was born. And Michael originally being the most loyal son, but never the favorite, is just salt in the wound. In a way, he's Chuck's long-awaited reckoning.

Looking at Chuck (playing guitar, writing his autobiography and not giving a fuck about his creation, but rather leaving all that pesky caring to someone like Dean) I actually find myself cheering for Michael.

Why shouldn't Michael destroy all those drafts that the creator himself doesn't even want anymore?

Dean and Michael are truly two sides of the same coin - both are truly and rightfully pissed at Chuck, but each has their own (human < - >archangel) way of dealing with it.

Chuck has a lot to answer for.

[Bobcatkitten]

I thought Michael was just making up that stuff about God to get to Cas...i.e. don't believe anything he says etc. 

[Myrelle]

3 hours ago, Bobcatkitten said:

I thought Michael was just making up that stuff about God to get to Cas...i.e. don't believe anything he says etc. 

Oh, I can easily believe in Michael's anger with God and over the many discarded universes(drafts), and it's much more understandable than Lucifer's anger ever was to me also.

[catrox14]

Arggghhhhh. I am so frustrated. Either I accidentally or my DVR deleted this episode.  The one that I intended to keep to watch again and again.   Codspammit.  

[Bergamot]

Having an unexpected day off, I decided to enjoy a rewatch of the last two episodes. I still love this one -- for me, one of the best in several seasons. Very few scenes that I fast-forwarded through when re-watching (basically just the ones with the hapless AU hunters.)

 

On 1/18/2019 at 12:03 AM, BabySpinach said:

Jensen leaping over that bar at the beginning was a thing of beauty. Always appreciate his impressive displays of athleticism. His fighting was amazing as always, especially as Michael.

Yes! I am embarrassed to admit how many times I have watched Dean taking down those vampires. The toss of the gun to Pamela, the leap over the bar, the slicing of the vampire heads -- one backhand slice, one forehand slice, the end! -- and then the casual walk back around the bar: it is, as you say, sheer poetry in motion, albeit very violent poetry. I also liked seeing Michael's fighting style again as well, very cool but so different from Dean's. I noticed that while Michael was fighting in the bar, in the "real world" he had a very pleased smile on his face; rather than being annoyed that he couldn't use his powers and so had to physically fight his opponents, he seemed to be really enjoying it. I don't know that this means anything, but it is an interesting character note.

 

On 1/18/2019 at 6:48 AM, bethy said:

I laughed out loud at Michael's comments a couple of time, but especially at his "Seriously?" when Sam, Cas, and Jack kind of shuffled over to the other side of the room after he told them he could hear them. 

Yes, that part makes me laugh every time! That is one of the things I liked about this episode, the way it actually had some moments that made me laugh. Without minimizing the deadly seriousness of the situation, the writer managed to acknowledge the inherent absurdity of the good guys trying to go up against an all-powerful archangel like Michael, considering how totally out of their league they were.

You want to talk privately, but you want to keep an eye on Michael -- so you just try to move a little out of the archangel's earshot? (As MIchael says, seriously?) You have Michael under control. (Just keep telling yourself that!) Do you put Michael in the trunk? (But Garth's in there!) Do you put him in the dungeon? (If the magic cuffs won't hold him, the dungeon won't either.)The only chance you have is to somehow wake Dean up so that he can force Michael out (science experiment time!), but it is an impossible task. (Nothing left but blood and bone.)

It was all impossible from the beginning, and yet somehow, thanks in the end to Dean's inner strength and his strategic thinking, they manage to win the battle. (At least temporarily!) And the fact that it is ridiculous to think that they could defeat the most powerful archangel ever created -- as Michael cheerfully and continually reminds them during the episode  -- just makes their win more satisfying.

This is something that I miss from the earlier years of the show: the Winchesters as unknown underdogs, so that the supernatural beings that they battle against find them amusing and totally underestimate them -- that is, until it is too late. I don't want a show about heroes who are so famous and successful that all they have to do is shout at demons to make them run away in fear, or who have magical powers that can melt monsters. I like watching heroes who are sometimes overwhelmed and bewildered, who fumble things and maybe even sometimes look foolish, but who in the end manage to win because of their grit and perseverance and ingenuity.

 

On 1/24/2019 at 3:22 PM, BabySpinach said:

On 1/21/2019 at 10:22 PM, catrox14 said:

Upon further review, I 100% agree with Michael's anger.  When I think about it more, that God (Chuck) rewrote his own children with new versions because IMO he basically failed them, I'd be pissed too.  And the more I think about it, the more I'm not so sure it's really that bad that the boys opened a path to other worlds.  I suspect Chuck never wanted the worlds to collide because then his shitty behavior would come out of the shadows.

And this is why I think Michael's anger at God works so much better than Lucifer's. Lucifer was basically mad because dad no longer favored him, threw him out of the house, and then left. His daddy issues were self-centered, small-scale, and far too mundane and generic to be all that compelling. But Michael's rage is specific to his father being the Creator. Only someone with God as their dad would be angry for this specific reason and want to carpet bomb the entire multiverse just to get back at him.

I don't know if it is the writing, or Jensen's acting, or both, but I think it is definitely an understatement to say that Michael's anger at God here works better than Lucifer's. (I'll never forget the stupidity of that episode where Lucifer, like a petulant, whiny teenager, locks himself in his room at the bunker and won't come out because God won't apologize to him. Just so stupid.)

I thought the depth of Michael's anger with his father was impressive, and his explanation for why he was going to destroy the world actually made sense for the character. And Jensen did a great job conveying Michael's overwhelming bitterness and disillusionment, as well as his anger. You could hear his complete and utter contempt just in the way he pronounced the name "Chuck" and said the word "Nothing" -- and feel the molten lava of his rage when he told Cas that God had abandoned them "because He doesn't care!"
 
BabySpinach, I liked what you said in the Writers thread about how the idea of Chuck the Divine Writer creating alternate worlds as rough drafts -- and then unfeelingly abandoning them as failures -- "has again re-contextualized, expanded, and deepened the world of the show". Again, it is an idea that actually makes sense in terms of what we have seen of Chuck, (although I'm sure Chuck would deny it), and it makes Michael's mission, while not forgivable, at least much more compelling to watch.

[Zipper]

Well, they sucked me back in!

I was excited to watch contemporaneously this year, but by E06, was too bored to continue. And then THIS... this work of yore. This excitement. This humor. This... wow.  I have almost nothing to add to the compliments or nit picks, other than this:  when Jack promises Cas that he won't use his "powers" again, I started a clock in my head and wondered if we would even get out of the episode without another demonstration.  That is this show, and after watching this Ep a second time, I'm fine with it. Let Jack go wherever the writers' fancy takes him. Just give me some canon, a little bit of Pamela (or other ladies/dudes Dean took a shine to), some funny, and some cool fighting, and I will hang in for the duration.  But for the love of Chuck... could it not take 10 eps to get there?!?!?!

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, Zipper said:

But for the love of Chuck... could it not take 10 eps to get there?!?!?!

Heh... but if they give it to us too soon, they'll have to keep it up. This way they only have to do it a few times a season.

[BabySpinach]

You ever revisit an old thread and cry over how giddy and hopeful you once were?

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

You ever revisit an old thread and cry over how giddy and hopeful you once were?

 This is why I never let myself get giddy or hopeful.  I knew the story line would be dropped sooner rather than later.

[BabySpinach]

1 minute ago, ILoveReading said:

 This is why I never let myself get giddy or hopeful.  I knew the story line would be dropped sooner rather than later.

JUST LET ME GRIEVE, DAMMIT! I just wanted my favorite show to be its best self, no need to rub it in... 😭😭😭

(Seriously, it's okay, but this definitely will be the last time I ever get optimistic about this show.)

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, BabySpinach said:

JUST LET ME GRIEVE, DAMMIT! I just wanted my favorite show to be its best self, no need to rub it in... 😭😭😭

(Seriously, it's okay, but this definitely will be the last time I ever get optimistic about this show.)

Sorry.  I didn't mean that as "rubbing it in" just saying that I couldn't get excited.  I still haven't even watched this ep

[FlickChick]

6 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sorry.  I didn't mean that as "rubbing it in" just saying that I couldn't get excited.  I still haven't even watched this ep

That is so sad because you are such a Jensen/Dean girl. IMO, it truly is the only episode where Jensen shines like a brand new penny. I think I've watched it three times already. (And FF through most of the other episodes these past few seasons). You don't have to get excited since we all know what happens, but just take in the glory that is Jensen playing two roles simultaneously. "The End Part Two"

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

That is so sad because you are such a Jensen/Dean girl. IMO, it truly is the only episode where Jensen shines like a brand new penny. I think I've watched it three times already. (And FF through most of the other episodes these past few seasons). You don't have to get excited since we all know what happens, but just take in the glory that is Jensen playing two roles simultaneously. "The End Part Two"

All I see is the lost potential and it makes me too sad to even want to watch it.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

All I see is the lost potential and it makes me too sad to even want to watch it.

I get that, but how can you really speak with certainty about something you haven't seen for yourself. It doesn't happen often, but there are definitely times I dont see things the same as even other Dean fans do.  Hell, when I first got online after bingeing  I thought I must have seen a different series than some did.  

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I get that, but how can you really speak with certainty about something you haven't seen for yourself. It doesn't happen often, but there are definitely times I dont see things the same as even other Dean fans do.  Hell, when I first got online after bingeing  I thought I must have seen a different series than some did.  

Responding in bitch/jerk.

[The Companion]

I liked this one. I liked the bar scenes and the inclusion of the reapers and Pamela (!). That being said, I just cannot get into the Michael storyline. The angel with daddy issues feels done to freaking death. "I am mad at my father and want to break his toys" doesn't interest me. As a result, it is hard for me to get into this season.

That being said, JA was definitely a little scary when he was throwing himself up against the door. I appreciated the references back to canon and liked the episode over all.  

 

[Terese]

On 6/24/2020 at 10:50 AM, The Companion said:

I liked this one. I liked the bar scenes and the inclusion of the reapers and Pamela (!). That being said, I just cannot get into the Michael storyline. The angel with daddy issues feels done to freaking death. "I am mad at my father and want to break his toys" doesn't interest me. As a result, it is hard for me to get into this season.

That being said, JA was definitely a little scary when he was throwing himself up against the door. I appreciated the references back to canon and liked the episode over all.  

 

I can't get into the Michael story, either, or the world he came from. Cheesy Hitleresque, stormsroopers running around all in the name of "Hail Michael." I wish they had conceived a more interesting AU organically born of the often contradictory choices inherent in free will.

But, no...

Chuck created that boring, superficial mess of a failed universe?!?! 

And Michael has to have the exact same whiney reaction to Dad as our Lucifer.

 I liked it once they got there in Dean's mind.  Flashes of memory eroding the facade was cool. Although, is that really what Dean would have been content with? Seemed mundane. It was nice to see Dean lock Michael away. Quick thinking.

[FoxyVixen69]

It irritates me to no end, that they don't just take Michaels grace?! Problem solved, all strength gone. Then they just have to get him out, but that seems like a minor problem, and as long as his strength is gone, then he's basically harmless!

They have him sitting there, right in front of them, why don't they just depower the nuke?! So fucking simple. Its beyond stupid that they don't just take it out. Either give it to Jack, or keep it in a bottle. (And if they give it to Jack, he won't have to burn his soul to "do magic"/angel tricks, or fight in any capacity, which solves an even bigger problem.)

 

Then they would have a fully powered nephilim on their side, and won't risk him turning evil due to a lack of soul, which seems like a potentially big problem. So this VERY SIMPLE solution kills two birds with one stone. 

I hate it when they "forget" obvious and very simple solutions.

 

They also have an archangel blade, so take his grace, then force him out, put him in a dead body or a murderer or someone evil and expendable, hold him in the cuffs and a circle of holy oil, and then just stake him with the special archangel killing blade. What's the problem? Simple! Done.

Its like they are braindead?!

 

But if it's to complicated to get him out of Deans body and kill him, AT LEAST take his power/grace away, so he isn't dangerous anymore. They do it ALL THE TIME, so they can't possibly forget how simple it would be. Ahhrg.

Edited February 22, 2021 by FoxyVixen69
edit: Forget some things, plus needed to correct some grammar.