S04.E10: The Children

[Maximum Taco]

But how did he expect to stop and speak with Tywin in the midst of his prison escape? I hope they find a way to explain that because it really bugs me. Showing himself to Tywin would have resulted in getting thrown right back in the dungeon. The only way he could have made it out of there was by killing Tywin, but he didn't seem to be planning that until after he saw Shae and grabbed the crossbow. 

 

I honestly don't think he was thinking it through. He didn't plan it out at all. He just acted.

 

He wasn't thinking "Ok, I'll have a nice chat with Pops, and then I'll peace out." he was probably thinking "What the crap am I doing? Turn around, turn around and go back to Varys, why am I not listening to my common sense?"

 

It's difficult when we aren't getting the inner monologue like in the books and we have to fill it in ourselves, but I maintain this was one of the very few decisions Tyrion makes that isn't the least bit rational, it's just something he couldn't stop himself from doing.

[Alapaki]

I'm just confused by all the Lannister children's stories, to be honest. Jaime and Cersei apparently stronger than ever, when they should be almost broken beyond repair at this point. The shows just been doing really strange things with their characters all season, to the point where I'm not sure I'll ever really believe Jaime's going to turn his back on Cersei, even though it must eventually happen.

 

 

He didn't go up there planning to kill his father or settle a score. He only decided to kill his father after he found Shae in his bed. If he needed to kill someone before he left I agree he would've settled on Cersei. But he went up to see his father because he just couldn't let go of the notion that maybe he could do something to make his father hate him less.

 

I honestly don't think he was thinking it through. He didn't plan it out at all. He just acted.

 

 

But acting that impulsively, and incredibly stupidly so, is completely out of character for Tyrion.  Isn't it?  

 

I've just be re-reading A Storm of Swords, and the scene where Tyrion first goes to Tywin after the Battle of Blackwater is just brutal.  Frankly, it's be so long ago in real-time for the show, I can't remember how much of that they kept in.  But I think there were probably some shitty things they've shown Tywin doing to Tyrion that they could've reminded the viewer of in the "previouslies"  

 

After having some time to think about it, I think they could've sold the idea of Tyrion facing the prospect of leaving Westeros (most likely for good), and wanted to finally "settle up" with Tywin for being such an asshole all his life.  That would've worked even without the Tysha angle.

 

But I just don't think they executed very well on the show, in terms of portraying it as impulsive or not.

[magpye29]

Just go with the Pratchett terminology, and call them "seamstresses" (hem hem!). Or Ladies of Negotiable Affection, if you're not into that whole brevity thing.

To avoid confusion, women who use needles & threads should in turn be referred to as "needlewomen".

 

I think it should be the other way around.  Seems like the women who are getting poked should be the needlewomen.

[Maximum Taco]

But acting that impulsively, and incredibly stupidly so, is completely out of character for Tyrion.  Isn't it?  

 

I've just be re-reading A Storm of Swords, and the scene where Tyrion first goes to Tywin after the Battle of Blackwater is just brutal.  Frankly, it's be so long ago in real-time for the show, I can't remember how much of that they kept in.  But I think there were probably some shitty things they've shown Tywin doing to Tyrion that they could've reminded the viewer of in the "previouslies"  

 

After having some time to think about it, I think they could've sold the idea of Tyrion facing the prospect of leaving Westeros (most likely for good), and wanted to finally "settle up" with Tywin for being such an asshole all his life.  That would've worked even without the Tysha angle.

 

But I just don't think they executed very well on the show, in terms of portraying it as impulsive or not.

 

It is out of character.

 

It's supposed to highlight the curveball that Tywin is to Tyrion.

 

- Tyrion should hate Tywin, he's definitely justified in doing so, but he still desires his love and respect. He's happy when Tywin keeps him in the tent in season one after he lets all his other advisors go. He's honoured when Tywin names him his direct proxy as Hand.

- Tyrion should ignore Tywin, but he still does what he says. He goes to King's Landing and becomes the Hand, he still marries Sansa even though he kinda doesn't want to. His biggest rebellion is bringing Shae to the capital. It's the equivalent of a teenage girl continuing to date the guy her dad doesn't like, but she still is home by 10pm every night, she doesn't drink or do drugs, and she gets straight A's.

- Tyrion should leave everyone who rejected him and tried to kill him behind. He should go straight to Varys and escape without any delays, but he can't leave Tywin behind, and he goes to confront him.

 

Tywin, up until the moment Tyrion shoots him, is Tyrion's achilles heel. Tywin makes Tyrion do things and act in ways he otherwise wouldn't.

 

Isn't there someone you know who can/could just push your buttons and make you act uncharacteristically? I know there is for me.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Anne Elk]

I for one am glad the arc of the Lannister children was changed, because it makes them far more complex and interesting. Cersei is a rotten person, no doubt, but she's not an absolute idiot in the show. In the book she's practically a cartoon. I found her POV chapters completely ridiculous. I'm much more interested in seeing Jaime turn against Cersei because she's a rotten person than seeing him consumed with jealousy because she slept with somebody. Honestly, I thought that motivation made him look like an ass. And I am not interested in exploring Tyrion's manpain about his wife maybe not actually being the prostitute he thought she was when he raped her. At least Shae died as a consequence of her own actions, and at least she was someone we got to know a little bit, not just a girl in a refrigerator (to use the TV Tropes term).

 

The one thing I did not believe was that Cersei would threaten to go public with the incest, because that revelation would take away whatever power she has accumulated. I'm not surprised that Jaime would fall for it but I don't believe for a second that Tywin wouldn't have called her bluff. In this case I think Charles Dance's performance should have communicated that Tywin was horrified at the thought of the Lannisters admitting to such a thing when it would not only lose them the throne but make them a kingdom-wide dirty joke. That's the only reason I can think of why he didn't just tell her to shut up.

 

I usually tend to nod off during the Stannis scenes but he seemed like quite the badass in this episode. And Jon Snow was quite the politician.

 

I also quite enjoyed the Brienne/Hound custody battle over Arya. The actress playing Arya is very charismatic, I'm looking forward to seeing what she will be doing next season.

 

 

 

[mac123x]

I am also very disappointed that we did not get a Tyrion and Shae conversation

 

They didn't have the screen time, since it was much more important to dwell on Jon Snow:  1. toasting the dead with Mance.  2 watching the Night's Watch burn their dead 3. Talk about the dead with Tormund  4. Burn dead Ygritte.  Jon Snow's wangst was more important than explaining Tyrion's motives.  [/sarcasm].  Seriously, I found myself saying "get on with it!" every time they cut back to the Wall area.  At one point I glanced at the clock and said "are they going to even have Tyrion escape this season?"

[Holmbo]

In the books it generally doesn't bother me as much because GRRM's overall respect for women as people and individuals comes through. He's also judging the people who do the horrible things through his writing. Well, it bothers me, but I mean more that it doesn't get my feminist hackles in an uproar because I feel he's commenting on what it would really be like to be a woman in that setting, not glorifying it.

 

It bothers me in the show because the women are not shown very well. They're sex kitten fun like Marg or man/boy-like as are Brienne and Arya, otherwise they're just vessels or the "boring" characters by less-discerning viewers.  The show takes away agency from the women and subjects them to horrors upon horrors, but I don't get the same feeling of condemnation I get in the books. They seem to be titillated (for lack of a better word) by the nudity and stuff and the very strong feminist message I find in the books is gone.  All those women from all those different classes and colors and religions and ages are shredded on the tv-screen, if they show up at all.

Neither Sansa, Cersei nor Dany fits into that category IMO. And also I think that caracters can be in the what you call man/boy category and still be different and fully fleshed out. In some way all the characters can be fitted into roles of Mother, Father, Warrior, Maiden (etc the other seven gods) but that is just a way to show how limiting the society is in which roles are available. It doesn't mean that Jon and Brienne (both in the warrior category) are the same carbon cut out person. Or Tywin and Stannis are the same.

Anyways I feel like one can be a fan of the show and still criticize it. And the misogyny and racism discussion topics are often interesting and brings up good points.

 

They certainly beat the ones going on at the IMDB board which after this episode was overflowing with discussion about how the show was pushing a feminist agenda, brought on by complaints about Brienne winning the fight against the Hound.

[Attaboy000]

So according to TV show lore, Brienne is the best fighter in all of Westeros. She bested Loras, Jaime, and The Hound.

[elzin]

Neither Sansa, Cersei nor Dany fits into that category IMO. And also I think that caracters can be in the what you call man/boy category and still be different and fully fleshed out. In some way all the characters can be fitted into roles of Mother, Father, Warrior, Maiden (etc the other seven gods) but that is just a way to show how limiting the society is in which roles are available. It doesn't mean that Jon and Brienne (both in the warrior category) are the same carbon cut out person. Or Tywin and Stannis are the same.

I think Arya and Brienne are fleshed out, but what I more  meant was the only female characters a lot of fans like are the "manly" ones or the sexy ones. The way the other women/girls are taken by a large portion of the fandom is not good.  I know it's a major complaint in the books too by a certain type of fan, but it's worse in the show.

 

Reading on a different forum the comments on the episode turned my stomach. Referring to Brienne constantly as a "bitch," I mean... really, it's 2014.  (Not that I don't call Cersei that from time to time, but I wait for her to do something unhinged. I don't refer to all the women like that constantly, like they're a bitch just for being women and existing and not being naked.)

[KatWay]

 

I think Arya and Brienne are fleshed out, but what I more  meant was the only female characters a lot of fans like are the "manly" ones or the sexy ones. The way the other women/girls are taken by a large portion of the fandom is not good.  I know it's a major complaint in the books too by a certain type of fan, but it's worse in the show.

But that's not the show's fault, for a large part. Characters like Sansa, Cersei or Margaery, or even Shae (minus the nonsensical finale) were all written as much more sympathetic and complex IMO than in the books. Book Sansa is kind of boring and endlessly passive, the show version has shown agency on quite a few occasions and even got the whole triumphant black swan makeover. From what I've seen Show Sansa is far better received than Book Sansa. Same goes for Cersei, really. She does have her fans from the show, people arguing she's not so bad. There's no way anybody would argue that just from reading the books where's far more evil and batshit crazy.

 

Also, not that I'm in favour of it, but the women on the show do tend to fall into the warrior (Brienne, Arya, Yara) / pretty (Dany, Margaery, Sansa, even Mel and Cersei) categories (with overlaps like Ygritte). So which other women are overlooked or disliked by the fandom for not being either?

[jeansheridan]

I hated the endless humiliation of Cersei in book 5.  I know she is unhinged evil by this point, silently allowing torture, but the nude parade went on forever.  

 

I liked her in the season closer because she is pulling herself together, gathering her allies.  I wish we had seen her briefly with Tommen.  Her mothering scenes are the best.  She sincerely loves her children as much as Cat.

 

The Queen of Thorns has some agency too.  She is more vivid on screen than on page.  And she seems to value a variety of female types:  cunning Margeury, bold Brienne, Sansa to a point.  We never see her with Cersei sadly.

[MrWhyt]

 

So according to TV show lore, Brienne is the best fighter in all of Westeros. She bested Loras, Jaime, and The Hound.

There should be an asterisk beside that record. She defeated Loras in a tournament, and Jaime had been a prisoner for many months.

[KatWay]

And the Hound was weakened from the infected wound. But still, she can hold her own with the best of them.

[Maximum Taco]

So according to TV show lore, Brienne is the best fighter in all of Westeros. She bested Loras, Jaime, and The Hound.

 

She hasn't beaten Barristan, No one has beaten Barristan. Unless you aren't counting him cause right now he is in Essos.

 

She also didn't beat the Mountain, who I also think has yet to lose a fight. And according to Qyburn could recover and be just as strong as he always was.

 

She's good, I don't think you can call her the best yet.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Maximum Taco

[Avaleigh]

You guys have me wondering now about the outcome of a Brienne vs. Bronn fight. I don't think Bronn is this spectacular fighter I'm just curious what the show would do since they really seem to like both characters.

Anne Elk, I'm glad somebody else thinks Tywin ought to have called Cersei's bluff. It's just hard for me to believe that book Tywin would have been cowed by the threat show Cersei gave him.

I don't think show Margaery is just a sex kitten.

I've also decided that as much as I was disappointed that Jaime treated the Kingsguard room like any other room I feel like I'm okay with having this sort of progress take place next season. In fact, I feel like it might even heighten the stakes and make more of an impact when it comes to his emotional break from her once she goes into full-blown crazy territory.

I thought the kiss on the golden hand was a beautifully manipulative touch.

Edited June 18, 2014 by Avaleigh

[BookEater]

 

He didn't go up there planning to kill his father or settle a score. He only decided to kill his father after he found Shae in his bed. If he needed to kill someone before he left I agree he would've settled on Cersei. But he went up to see his father because he just couldn't let go of the notion that maybe he could do something to make his father hate him less.

 

Just like he had to know why Orson Lannister spent all day in the garden smashing beetles, he had to know why his father continually hated and tried to kill him. Even though he already pretty much knows why. He still needed to absolutely know before he could leave forever.

 

The difference between Tywin and Cersei, to Tyrion, is that he never craved Cersei's approval, all the way through though he craves Tywin's. Why else would his last words to him be "I am your son. I have always been your son."?

 

I don't think he would've said the same thing to Cersei. He probably would've spit on her corpse and peaced out.

 

You make a reasoned argument, and I think in retrospect that's exactly what the show was going for judging by episode eights endless cousin Orson story. I guess what I'm struggling with is Tyrion's state of mind when he decides to climb that ladder to the Tower of the Hand, in that he seems quite rational. Scared, yes, but he seems mostly in charge of his faculties. So how does he imagine that he's leaving that room and going anywhere but back to the dungeons? I don't believe for a second Tywin was letting him leave that room without a fight and Tyrion knew that, I think. Again I don't doubt your logic, I think you've read the show just as they intended. I just feel personally that the show didn't communicate the events very well.

 

 

In the books it generally doesn't bother me as much because GRRM's overall respect for women as people and individuals comes through. He's also judging the people who do the horrible things through his writing. Well, it bothers me, but I mean more that it doesn't get my feminist hackles in an uproar because I feel he's commenting on what it would really be like to be a woman in that setting, not glorifying it.

 

It bothers me in the show because the women are not shown very well. They're sex kitten fun like Marg or man/boy-like as are Brienne and Arya, otherwise they're just vessels or the "boring" characters by less-discerning viewers.  The show takes away agency from the women and subjects them to horrors upon horrors, but I don't get the same feeling of condemnation I get in the books. They seem to be titillated (for lack of a better word) by the nudity and stuff and the very strong feminist message I find in the books is gone.  All those women from all those different classes and colors and religions and ages are shredded on the tv-screen, if they show up at all.

 

As hard as I found reading all the everyday sexism and abuse, as well as the downright horrific acts of cruelty (I'm looking at you, Ramsay) to women. I always felt GRRM was making a very valid point. Life in this world for any woman is fraught with dangers and is very unfair to them. The shows flirted with these ideas, but then it does stuff like the hated sexposition scene in season one. It has it's noblewomen (Catelyn and Cersei), arguably the best placed of their sex to exert any influence on their society, and has their agency taken from them and given to their menfolk.

 

To borrow a phrase from benteen, when they've gone into business for themselves we've ended up with Ros and Talisa. Ros, who seemed to only exist to get naked for some sexposition, and when she finally got to keep her clothes on and they started to explore an interesting idea of her becoming one of Varys' little birds, she's killed off horribly and once again if not naked than in a state of undress.

 

And Talisa was a failure of a character from start to finish, here you have a woman who speaks her mind to anyone who crosses her path, thinks nothing of berating strangers on a battlefield of all places and yet the usual horrors and misfortunes of a woman who does that, beatings, rape, disfigurement or murder mysteriously fail to happen to her. That is until her plot armour fails spectacularly at the RW, when she gets stabbed in the lady parts.

 

This show really needs a strong female presence behind the scenes who can flag this stuff up so we don't keep getting presented with these awful events of violence against women (and men) being shown in such a titillating way.

[Ms. Poly Theist]

Great season overall, and a good finale, but I missed a few things keenly:

 

1) Varys in costume. I missed seeing Varys in a sexton's robe, with beard stubble, as the drunk gaoler, as a simpering, plump highborn lady...

 

2) The birthmark! Bloodraven didn't look as imposing as I wanted him to look. He just looked...old. I wanted branches growing in and out of his body in scary ways, and I certainly wanted that birthmark, particularly since they insist upon calling him the "three-eyed raven" (rather than the three-eyed crow).

 

3) I'm VERY sorry that they didn't touch on the story about Tywin taking the jewels and clothes from Lord Tytos's mistress and making her walk naked through the streets of Lannisport. It's a good setup for what I hope happens to Cersei at some point, but also points up his hypocrisy in sleeping with Shae.

 

4) Of course, the biggie: the Tysha reveal between Jaime and Tyrion!! How they could have left this out is beyond me. It's been well-expressed in a number of posts here already, so let me just say that I agree with many of you, particularly as it impacts Tyrion's impetus (or not) for straying from his escape route. Pah!

 

 

 It still pisses me off that the showrunners didn't feel that Shae's actions required any dialogue from her to clarify it - to me they're handwaving it by implying that all prostitutes are alike and therefore their motivations are all venal and require no explanation except that they're whores. Which I hate 

 

I dunno; I think we got plenty of exposition over several seasons about why Shae would have done what she did. At first, she had all of Tyrion's attention, and she seemed to at least be fond of him. He treated her pretty well (and while Book!Shae may not have enjoyed being Sansa's maid, it's clear that Show!Shae did). Then suddenly he sends her away with some cruel words and an attempt to seemingly buy her off via Varys (at least, that's what she believed). There's a reason why "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" is a famous saying (well, it's actually a paraphrase: what William Congreve wrote was in fact "Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, nor hell a fury like a woman scorned."). Not that the show isn't absolutely awful sometimes in it's treatment of non-noble women, but I this case, I don't see how extra explanatory dialogue (that we didn't get in the book, either) would have helped.

 

All in all, I think they could have cut Jon Snow's chat with Tormund about Ygritte's feels, and some of her Viking bonfire, and given us more of Tyrion's fantastic escape from the Red Keep, secret passages, costumed Varys, truth-telling brother, and all!

[benteen]

So according to TV show lore, Brienne is the best fighter in all of Westeros. She bested Loras, Jaime, and The Hound.

 

Well, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that Jaime victory.  His hands were chained and he was rusty as hell after a year of inactivity.  You could even make the cast for the Hound not being 100% with that infection though he certainly didn't fight that way.  Brienne defeated Loras in the books and, as pointed out, it was in a tournament.

 

As great as Gwendoline Christie is as Brienne (and she's terrific) she's playing a different Brienne than she is in the books.  In the books, Brienne is insecure and much less experienced.  She doesn't kill anyone until A Feast for Crows (it made a lot of sense to change that for the show).  On the show, Brienne is a much more confidant and experienced warrior.

Edited June 19, 2014 by benteen

[Pogojoco]

I can't remember if this was as highlighted in the show, but Tywin has big issues with "working girls" and routinely brought up Tyrion frequenting brothels as another way Tyrion was a major disappointment. So the hypocrisy of Shae being in the bed, as well as all the other betrayal galled Tyrion. I remember feeling the hypocrisy when I read the book- so when Tywin, in the show, calls Shae a whore- I thought of that- he knows what she is (ie not just Tyrion's girlfriend) and she's in his bed. 

 

As for why Show Tyrion went to the Tower of the Hand, I have no idea- other than Tywin had to die and Tyrion had to do it. And I never even thought of it until I read it here. There is no reason for him to go to his dad's place. 

 

As for women on the show, I have mixed feelings over how they are portrayed. There is definitely way more rape (I'm thinking the Craster's Keep scenes and of course, Cersei) in the show than I felt necessary. Especially the idea of making a consensual sexual encounter in the book into a rape in the tv show- it seems like a lazy way to ramp up tension. 

 

Martin has done a service to the fantasy genre just by provided so many different female characters, that are good, evil, crazy, flawed, naive, ambitious etc etc. The show, I dunno. I feel like they could exploit them less. 

[Pete Martell]

They didn't have the screen time, since it was much more important to dwell on Jon Snow:  1. toasting the dead with Mance.  2 watching the Night's Watch burn their dead 3. Talk about the dead with Tormund  4. Burn dead Ygritte.  Jon Snow's wangst was more important than explaining Tyrion's motives.  [/sarcasm].  Seriously, I found myself saying "get on with it!" every time they cut back to the Wall area.  At one point I glanced at the clock and said "are they going to even have Tyrion escape this season?"

 

I also thought the Tyrion material in this episode was strangely truncated. I think they may have assumed viewers saw many things in the material (about why Tyrion went there and about Shae's motivations this season) that they didn't necessarily bother to tell us.

 

I do think the Wall material in this episode was important, especially when I watched a second time. Not only did they cement Jon moving from reactionary and lost to more of the man he can be, they were also important to reestablish the Wildlings as lost, sympathetic characters who weren't wandering around slaughtering people for kicks. I also thought, as much as the whole thing felt fanvid-dy, Jon burning Ygritte's body was the respect the character and their relationship deserved (and it saddens me that Shae got no such respect).

 

If it had been me, I would have cut out that whole beetles conversation in episode 8 and moved Bran's story to that episode, and then used episode 10 to have a little more with Tyrion. More POV with Varys also would have been helpful, as I have no idea if he intended to have Tyrion go as far as he did (his "what have you done?" was somewhat weak...) and he just hadn't realized he'd be caught out when the bells rang, or if he truly had nothing to do with any of it.

Well, I wouldn't put a lot of stock in that Jaime victory.  His hands were chained and he was rusty as hell after a year of inactivity.  You could even make the cast for the Hound not being 100% with that infection though he certainly didn't fight that way.  Brienne defeated Loras in the books and, as pointed out, it was in a tournament.

 

As great as Gwendoline Christie is as Brienne (and she's terrific) she's playing a different Brienne than she is in the books.  In the books, Brienne is insecure and much less experienced.  She doesn't kill anyone until A Feast for Crows (it made a lot of sense to change that for the show).  On the show, Brienne is a much more confidant and experienced warrior.

 

I hear a lot of criticisms of Brienne being harsher on the show. I can see that criticism, but I do think Gwendoline, and the writing, still manage to show Brienne's inherent naivete. She was shockingly naive for quite a bit of that scene with Arya and The Hound and the following fight scene with The Hound, and she nearly paid the price for it. I wonder if that will change who she is next season.

Edited June 19, 2014 by Pete Martell

[sylvam]

I dunno; I think we got plenty of exposition over several seasons about why Shae would have done what she did. At first, she had all of Tyrion's attention, and she seemed to at least be fond of him. He treated her pretty well (and while Book!Shae may not have enjoyed being Sansa's maid, it's clear that Show!Shae did). Then suddenly he sends her away with some cruel words and an attempt to seemingly buy her off via Varys (at least, that's what she believed). There's a reason why "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" is a famous saying (well, it's actually a paraphrase: what William Congreve wrote was in fact "Heaven has no rage like love to hatred turned, nor hell a fury like a woman scorned."). Not that the show isn't absolutely awful sometimes in it's treatment of non-noble women, but I this case, I don't see how extra explanatory dialogue (that we didn't get in the book, either) would have helped.

 

 

I agree that your explanation of the rift is the best guess as to what the show runners intended, but I think we got really uneven exposition.  In the beginning, Shae got a ton of time and the actress played her loyalty to Tyrion as based in love.  To me this comes across clearly in her acting choices, and if you read interviews with the actress, it's how she sees the relationship too.  It's only because of this depth early on that I particularly feel the characters and the dissolution of the relationship deserved more time -- if Shae had been book Shae, I would care less about exactly what had gone on in her head since we saw her head for the boat.  But in particular, I also want to know what Tyrion thinks about their relationship, too.  The whole murder was played, to me, very perfunctorily, when in fact there are many more possible interactions that seem more likely to me (consistent with the characters) than what happened.  Not at all a book purist, but the combination of the different characterization combined with sudden course correction to a "set piece" from the book just felt emotionally wrong to me.  I needed more exposition for two reasons: 1) explicit confirmation that the show remembers the early portrayal of their relationship, vs. just retconning to get to the book outcome and 2) book aside, more emotional satisfaction from the dialogue and/or acting (I think PD is better at some emotions than others - he just doesn't do temporarily unhinged as well).  I was invested in their relationship, and simply don't find it satisfying to fill in the details myself in this case.

 

Prior to this episode, I wouldn't have minded if Shae had taken Tysha's place in Tyrion's emotional baggage going forward, but based on how everything went down in the end, it's probably going to feel pretty unsatisfying if they go this direction unless we get more explanation than we currently have.

[Tryangle]

I agree that your explanation of the rift is the best guess as to what the show runners intended, but I think we got really uneven exposition.  In the beginning, Shae got a ton of time and the actress played her loyalty to Tyrion as based in love.  To me this comes across clearly in her acting choices, and if you read interviews with the actress, it's how she sees the relationship too.  It's only because of this depth early on that I particularly feel the characters and the dissolution of the relationship deserved more time -- if Shae had been book Shae, I would care less about exactly what had gone on in her head since we saw her head for the boat.  But in particular, I also want to know what Tyrion thinks about their relationship, too.  The whole murder was played, to me, very perfunctorily, when in fact there are many more possible interactions that seem more likely to me (consistent with the characters) than what happened.  Not at all a book purist, but the combination of the different characterization combined with sudden course correction to a "set piece" from the book just felt emotionally wrong to me.  I needed more exposition for two reasons: 1) explicit confirmation that the show remembers the early portrayal of their relationship, vs. just retconning to get to the book outcome and 2) book aside, more emotional satisfaction from the dialogue and/or acting (I think PD is better at some emotions than others - he just doesn't do temporarily unhinged as well).  I was invested in their relationship, and simply don't find it satisfying to fill in the details myself in this case.

 

Prior to this episode, I wouldn't have minded if Shae had taken Tysha's place in Tyrion's emotional baggage going forward, but based on how everything went down in the end, it's probably going to feel pretty unsatisfying if they go this direction unless we get more explanation than we currently have.

 

I suppose there's chance of further details being revealed by Varys (either through his 'birds' or having Shae confide in him a bit, which is more doubtful), but otherwise I see the whole matter falling by the wayside, which likely leads to Tyrion's motivations becoming a bit different from what the book's given us.

[Pogojoco]

As for Stoneheart.....I would've intro'd her at the end of last season. The episode was called "Mhysa"- the Yunkai word for mother. And the shock of the Red Wedding hadn't worn off- the image of Catelyn begging for Robb's life and then getting her throat slit was still fresh. They didn't need to make her a character in the fourth season, but it would've planted the concept- sort of like how the White Walkers at the Fist of the First Men ended the second season, and maybe alluded to her in the fourth. The juxtaposition of Dany walking amongst her free "children" and the Brotherhood without Banners raising Catelyn- Thoros and company had been introduced, so it was still fresh- would've been sort of great, IMO. 

 

Oh, and as for the Tysha stuff- they discussed her in the first season, and the writers had a perfect opportunity to re-introduce the idea of her in a Jamie/Tyrion conversation (the Orson Lannister beetle conversation or the "We're the Kingslayer Brothers" conversation, for instance) this season (put the earlier convo, season 1 convo in a "previously on..." ) and then have Jamie feel bad and drop the bomb after he lets Tyrion escape and suspects he's never going to see him again. Gives Tyrion plenty of reason to march up to the Tower of the Hand. 

 

Tyrion thinks his number is finally up. It makes sense that he's evaluating certain things and the women in his life would be one of those things- Tysha and Shae and Sansa- first "whore" wife, actual whore pseudo wife and virginal second wife who disappeared (in the book, Tyrion thinks Sansa was involved with the murder.)  

Edited June 20, 2014 by Pogojoco

[Independent George]

Last season was waaay too early to introduce her (coming right after the Red Wedding, it would have played out as a cheap ploy that actually reduces the shock of her death). The best way to introduce her is through Brienne, not some random Frey whom we've never met and don't care about. Between Arya and Sansa's storylines having to be played out, we just weren't ready for UnCat yet this season. You can't just go down a checklist of plot points to go through - it needs to be tied in to how the other storylines play out.

To paraphrase the philosopher Bluth: you need to push the tension to the last possible second before you start stripping.

Edited June 20, 2014 by Independent George

[yellowfred]

I actually think the better intro for Lady Stoneheart would be the random Frey getting hanged.  That way the viewing audience gets to experience that small glimmer of hope that her resurrection was a good thing. 

 

I also think it was a mistake not to introduce her this episode.  For me, at least, her introduction in the books came at kind of the perfect time, because it came when most of the characters affected by the Red Wedding seemed to be moving on, to some degree, so it felt like that was just the end of it, but then she shows up and you realize that it's not.  Plus, it was the first real sign that the perpetrators of the Red Wedding weren't just going to be getting away with it.  I get not wanting to bring her in too soon, but I hope they don't end up bringing her in too late for it to really have the impact that it should.

[jeansheridan]

 

I love Cat, aside from her treatment of Jon, and it's actually for that reason that I hate Lady Stoneheart in concept and practice. I hate that Cat wasn't just allowed to die, and that as Zombie Cat, she is so unlike her live self.

Carrie Ann--I'm so with you on this.  She's just such a thing now, a symbol, not a person.  Beric is cool and haunted as you say (and if we get to see him again next season, woohoo!).  ZombieCat is just creepy and weird.  A perversion of a Mother character.  

 

Hmm, are there any good mothers on Game of Thrones?  

[Pete Martell]

One of the video reviews for this episode mentioned that the changes from the book made it difficult to believe Arya would not mercy kill The Hound, because unlike in the books, they really had a bond.

 

I'm biased, as I did not like this relationship, nor did I think it was some great father/daughter commentary, but I do see that the show had them as being close sometimes. For me, her leaving him to die made the otherwise offputting/repetitive scenes they had in "Breaker of Chains" come to life, because the whole message of that episode was him teaching her that it doesn't matter how kind you are or how much you try to help - you're just a means to an end. Arya did to him what he did to the farmer, complete with taking his money and leaving him injured (although the farmer didn't seem to be grievously injured).

[Hecate7]

I hated the endless humiliation of Cersei in book 5.  I know she is unhinged evil by this point, silently allowing torture, but the nude parade went on forever.  

 

I liked her in the season closer because she is pulling herself together, gathering her allies.  I wish we had seen her briefly with Tommen.  Her mothering scenes are the best.  She sincerely loves her children as much as Cat.

I'm not so sure that's really true. She loved Joffrey. She really doesn't seem to love Tommen at all. She's just possessive of him. But she doesn't care how he feels, what happens to him, or if he's safe. She was willing to kill him to keep him with her, but that's not love. That's not wanting what's really best for Tommen. I don't think Cersei has that kind of love in her.

 

She was willing to come out of the closet about the incest. Can you imagine what would happen to Tommen, if Cersei did that?  What is the penalty, I wonder, for usurping the Iron Throne? Cersei is insane.

[benteen]

In fairness, on the show I think poisoning him after Blackwater was to give him a quick death.  It looked like the enemies were about to smash through the gates.

[polyhymnia]

Two things that I didn't like that I did not see discussed:  how did Brienne and Pod not hear The Hound and Arya going on and on (well, mostly The Hound)?  You'd think Brienne would be able to locate them with The Hound doing that much shouting.

 

Jaime and Cersei hooking up in the Tower of the Hand made Jaime's freeing Tyrion seem bizarre if you had no book knowledge.  He reunites with his twin only to turn right around and do the one thing that she will really hate him for?  There needed to be an extra scene or some dialogue (true with many of the scenes in the finale).

 

The Two Dragons Who Are Not Drogon made me sad.  They gave Dany a weird mix of a sad puppy/betrayed kid look that was pretty well done considering they are not real.  And the crying was haunting.  F'ing Drogon indeed.

[Hecate7]

The one thing I did not believe was that Cersei would threaten to go public with the incest, because that revelation would take away whatever power she has accumulated.

Although in the books Cersei and Jaime both propose to each other, at different times. And each time the other twin points out, "we're not Targaryens." Which makes me think that at least one of them probably IS a Targaryen.

Jaime loves Cersei, but not enough to let Tyrion die over it.

Edited June 27, 2014 by Hecate7

[Avaleigh]

Cersei proposed to Jaime in the books? I know she had dream that Jaime was her husband and she told him she only wanted to be with him but I can't recall anything else. I remember Jaime proposing with Cersei rejecting it and thinking that he was crazy to try to be open about it all. I remember her claiming that she wanted it just as much as Jaime, but she's either deluding herself or lying because it's obvious that she isn't willing to give up power for him the way he did and would have still done for her had she only had the inclination/courage to ask. The idea of life with Jaime and their son at Casterly Rock wasn't enough for her even though she admits she'd much prefer to live there rather than KL if she could make it happen without threatening Tommen's claim.

On the show there's little to nothing that indicates Cersei would have been willing to give up power just to spite her father and get out of a marriage that probably wouldn't have had to take her away from Tommen as there's little reason that she and Loras wouldn't have been able to go on living at KL for the foreseeable future.

[that one guy]

I continue to feel like the show has almost entirely changed things for the better. I loved Brienne fighting the real Hound rather than a Hound impersonator, and not just because it meant we got to keep the Hound around longer. It also gives Arya some more agency - she could easily have chosen to go with Brienne, and chooses Braavos instead. And no whining about Tysha! I can't tell you how relieved I was about how they handled the death of Shae. I have been dreading that, and the internet reaction to it, all season, or at least since the botched Jamie/Cersei rape scene. After that point I hated Book!Tyrion, and every time he whined about "where do whores go" I'm like, "in the ground, after you murder them, asshole. I hope you die soon." So I'm much relieved that 1. it was in self defense and 2. he is obviously wracked by guilt, rather than dismissing her to whine about some other girl. And Jojen was a nonentity on the page, at least for me, so kiiling him onscreen was fine with me.

But . . . 

 

WHY DOES BLOODRAVEN HAVE TWO EYES???? It's not that I think eyepatches are cool or whatever, it's that when he has two eyes, the expression "a thousand eyes, and one" doesn't make any sense, and yet they used it anyway. This is the first change that I really, really don't like. And it's not really a budgetary issue, how much can an eyepatch possibly cost? You don't have to show a tree growing into his empty eye socket, I get why that would look stupid. But the character only has one eye! If you're giving him two eyes, you can't use "a thousand eyes, and one." Maybe a thousand eyes, and three, referring to the raven, but the one eye thing just doesn't make sense. This wasn't enough to ruin the second best ever episode of Game of Thrones for me, but I'll never watch it without yelling at the screen during the Bloodraven part. The show has changed actors before - please, show, give him one eye next year?

[Hecate7]

I think the "St Tyrion" epithet is a bit melodramatic. He just murdered two people. I don't call that whitewashed. They've got plenty of show material for him to go even darker and more nihilistic after this, and the endless "where do the whores go" litany wasn't exactly my idea of nuanced character-building.

Hear, hear!

 

He's plenty gray enough. I think some people are disappointed that they didn't make him downright unredeemable, but there are enough unredeemable characters in the story. It's boring after awhile.

[EngradyPind]

Can someone please help me with this?  How are years counted in this story world?  Does a year consist of a summer and a winter?  The ages given for some of the characters confuse me:  Tommen is 8; Daenerys' scribe is 11.  I know we aren't looking at Earth years, but using the term years, when perhaps cycle might be better, tends to throw me. 

[BookEater]

Can someone please help me with this?  How are years counted in this story world?  Does a year consist of a summer and a winter?  The ages given for some of the characters confuse me:  Tommen is 8; Daenerys' scribe is 11.  I know we aren't looking at Earth years, but using the term years, when perhaps cycle might be better, tends to throw me. 

 

I'm not exactly sure, but I would assume they use days (sunrise to sunset) and however many days make up their months (moons). I'm again assuming they have 12 months in a year like we do, but that's pure speculation on my part as I don't think GRRM has ever stated what kind of calendar Westeros uses. It would be highly confusing to mark time by using the seasons as a guide in this world as they're so irregular. I'm happy to be corrected if anyone does know for sure.

[Dev F]

From the beginning of the first book: "It was the ninth year of summer, and the seventh of Bran's life." So it's clear that years have nothing to do with the cycle of the seasons. And since people's ages seem to roughly comport with what their ages would be in the real world -- e.g., a seven-year-old acts like a little kid, while a fourteen-year-old acts like a young teen -- I think we're meant to assume that Westeros years are approximately equivalent to our years.

Edited June 30, 2014 by Dev F

[Which Tyler]

I've always liked to think that the huge multi-year seasons are on top of normal seasons; with King Rob's talk of "summer snows" etc. More like a very rapid exchange of mini-ice ages than seasons as we understand them; with annual seasons going on in the background, which could be counted, along with the phases of the moon etc.

 

It just makes more sense to me, and I'll continue to think it, even if GRRM blogs something to completely disprove me.

[sev]

^ I like your Ice Age idea. If the planet doesn't have a titled axis then there would be no season's change during the year.  Years would be defined by the position of the sun in the constellations. The mini Ice Ages then could be due to changes in the planet's or sun's heat, that might as well be magical in nature...

Excuse my crackpottering. :)

Edited July 16, 2014 by sev

[Holmbo]

I've always liked to think that the huge multi-year seasons are on top of normal seasons; with King Rob's talk of "summer snows" etc. More like a very rapid exchange of mini-ice ages than seasons as we understand them; with annual seasons going on in the background, which could be counted, along with the phases of the moon etc.

 

It just makes more sense to me, and I'll continue to think it, even if GRRM blogs something to completely disprove me.

I like that too.

When I was totally new to the show and the books I asked on IMDb about why they count years. Because I was thinking since seasons doesn't match up with the years why keep track of them? They could measure them with star positions and such but why bother when there's no practical reason for it. A poster pointed out that they have something called "harvest time" in the books and that se took it to mean that they actually must have some kind of seasonal variations within the year. Otherwise there'd be no reason to sow and harvest everything at a certain time of the year.

[Hecate7]

As I suspected, there will turn out to be more to Shae than met the eye, just as that drinking game first season implied. http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/06/16/game-of-thrones-finale-martin/.

 

He says he doesn't want to talk about it because it's stuff that will play out later. So there is much to speculate on there, and apparently this applies equally to the books and the show, even though Shae is so different on both. Her significance to Tywin and to Tyrion is apparently unchanged by all the weird little things like making her from Lorath, or letting her have real feelings for Tyrion.

[Lady S.]

Cersei proposed to Jaime in the books? I know she had dream that Jaime was her husband and she told him she only wanted to be with him but I can't recall anything else.

You're remembering it right, book Cersei would never. And even on the show, she was only threatening Tywin with the nuclear option so she could stay in King's Landing with Tommen as king, she has no reason to drop the bomb as long as she gets what she wants, not careing what anyone gossips now that she's had it out with Tywin doesn't mean she going to proudly tell all the gossips they're right and throw away Tommen's throne.

I read that GRRM interview too, when it came out right after the finale. I assumed the rest of the story has more to do with Varys, who he brings up. Shae being Varys's spy or Varys being otherwise involved in that match with Tywin makes a hell of a lot more szense, and actually has some prior Shae/Varys association to back it up, as well as the suspicion that Varys meant to lead Tyrion to Tywin's bedroom, which led to Cersei being in charge and doing all her good work Varys so admired. The show has gone in a different direction with Shae and Varys, as with Jeyne Westerling and so many other things, but GRRM was talking about the story he wrote, with Tysha and everything else.

Edited July 30, 2014 by Lady S.

[Avaleigh]

You're remembering it right, book Cersei would never. And even on the show, she was only threatening Tywin with the nuclear option so she could stay in King's Landing with Tommen as king, she has no reason to drop the bomb as long as she gets what she wants, not careing what anyone gossips now that she's had it out with Tywin doesn't mean she going to proudly tell all the gossips they're right and throw away Tommen's throne.

Yeah, it just doesn't make sense to me why Tywin wouldn't have been able to handle Cersei in that moment. Book Tywin who had sharp lessons to give all night and day? There's no way that Cersei would have won that little conversation as D&D insist she did if it had been with book!Tywin. IMO book!Tywin would have listened to what she had to say and that would have been the extent of him humoring her. In the books he told her that if she wanted to have any choice in who her next husband would be that she'd basically have to get with the program and accept the fact that a marriage is going to happen. He could have threatened to have Jaime sent away (maybe to Dorne to guard Myrcella), he could have said that a marriage to Loras would be the only way she could hope to remain in KL for the foreseeable future, he could have hinted at a silent sister fate, he could have cut her off financially, he could have threatened an even less desirable match like with Balon Greyjoy or maybe one of Olenna's nephews, etc. There were just way too many options for him to just roll over because of some ridiculously hollow threat, especially from a woman who has never been willing to sacrifice anything that we know of. She wants to remain a queen and she wants to remain being mother to the king and obviously she's not going to achieve that by exposing the family. I'd sooner believe that she'd do as Jaime once suggested she'd do and have Loras killed in his sleep or with some sort of accident or frame job that she'd blame on Loras's so-called "deviant" behavior.

[that one guy]

Watched this again tonight. Still annoyed that the Three Eyed Crow had 2 eyes. Otherwise a great episode. The fight between the Hound and Brienne is a series highlight. Nonetheless, Bloodraven only has one eye, and without that detail, "A thousand eyes, and one" makes no goddamn sense.

[Ashara Payne]

Ok I'm new to this site and apologies if this has been discussed already, but I've a question that I've wondered about since the episode was broadcast and can't seem to find any discussion about it (admittedly I've not looked too far beyond recaps on YouTube).

When Jon is in the tent with Mance, Mance suddenly acts all suspicious like he's sussed that Jon is there to kill him. What happened to make him think that? Did I miss it? Does Jon go for a weapon or something? Or does he hear clamour outside? I feel I'm missing something really obvious, but also feel like it doesn't even matter and it's daft to even care. Can't even find my books to read it.

[Lady S.]

When Jon is in the tent with Mance, Mance suddenly acts all suspicious like he's sussed that Jon is there to kill him. What happened to make him think that? Did I miss it? Does Jon go for a weapon or something? Or does he hear clamour outside? I feel I'm missing something really obvious, but also feel like it doesn't even matter and it's daft to even care. Can't even find my books to read it.

The sudden moment is when Jon gets all jumpy hearing a knife being used which prompts Mance to confront him about his murderous intentions, but I'm sure the possibility was on his mind before that. Jon had already been eyeing all the weapons of the other men in the tent and acting shifty, and he repeated his earlier lie that Castle Black had a 1,000+ strong garrison, which Mance had called as bullshit. Mance would have to be an idiot to trust any crow claiming they were there to give him what he wanted, but especially not the turncloak crow who had previously lied to him. I don't quite remember how book-Mance called his intentions, but I remember book-Jon doubted Mance would be fooled by him and knew Thorne and Slynt were actually sending him just to get killed, whether or not he managed to take Mance down with him. On the show the suicide mission is Jon own idea, but he knows it's a stupid plan with little chance of success.

Edited November 23, 2015 by Lady S.

[Hecate7]

But that's not the show's fault, for a large part. Characters like Sansa, Cersei or Margaery, or even Shae (minus the nonsensical finale) were all written as much more sympathetic and complex IMO than in the books. Book Sansa is kind of boring and endlessly passive, the show version has shown agency on quite a few occasions and even got the whole triumphant black swan makeover. From what I've seen Show Sansa is far better received than Book Sansa. Same goes for Cersei, really. She does have her fans from the show, people arguing she's not so bad. There's no way anybody would argue that just from reading the books where's far more evil and batshit crazy.

 

Also, not that I'm in favour of it, but the women on the show do tend to fall into the warrior (Brienne, Arya, Yara) / pretty (Dany, Margaery, Sansa, even Mel and Cersei) categories (with overlaps like Ygritte). So which other women are overlooked or disliked by the fandom for not being either?

 

Olenna, Shireen, Selyse, Mirri Muz Dur, Lyssa Arryn, Maggie the Frog, Meera Reed, Gilly....I think there are others, but you're right, they don't get much time in the sun.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Hecate7

[Boundary]

I've lost count how many times I've watched the last 4 minutes of this episode. Arya closed out a season, the soundtrack is upbeat with a Stark/Valyrian twist (that song, The Children, is probably my fav of all the soundtracks). The whole scene is ethereal, there's no intention to shock or break the internet. I love it. Did I mention that Arya closed out the season? If the Big 3 are Jon, Dany and Tyrion, then she makes it a Big 4.

[John Potts]

Did like Mance pointing out that he'd been honest while Jon had lied. And sending flanking parties to seize the undefended sections of the Wall - he knew he'd won there (or would have, if Stannis hadn't unexpectedly appeared).

Danny realises that it's one thing to declare slaves free and another thing to actually make them free. And it can be hard for a "mother" to discipline her children (particularly if you don't start young).

Impressed Jon Snow can build a pyre & put Ygritte on it single handed. Good job there were no other details that needed to be addressed.

Thought briefly that Jojen stabbed himself to force the others to leave him, but it was definitely a skeletal hand.

Glad Brienne actually found (and knew she'd found) Arya. Her wonderings in AFFC are simply interminable (IMO).
That Brienne/Hound fight was brutal (and they both fought dirty!)
Arya is one cold bitch to leave The Hound begging for mercy (OK, I know he survives).

Good to see Jamie gets on with both his siblings

On ‎18‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 8:11 AM, Anne Elk said:

I did not believe was that Cersei would threaten to go public with the incest, because that revelation would take away whatever power she has accumulated. I'm not surprised that Jaime would fall for it but I don't believe for a second that Tywin wouldn't have called her bluff.

It does seem completely out of character for him. Maybe he was in deep denial about it, but he would certainly have a better comeback than to stand there looking stunned. I'm sure he would come back with "So you are prepared to live a life on the run and see your children executed just to spite me!? I am trying to protect you AND your children!" (or something along those lines).

On ‎16‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 9:40 PM, Alapaki said:

We got the Roose/Ramsey seen a few weeks back.  Because, while that's a "positive" father/son relationship . . . ewwww.

Well, you know what they say, "The family that flays together, stays together".

ETA: Was a little disappointed that the Child of the Forest didn't go, "Come with me if you want to live!" (though it would have been more appropriate to say it to Danerys).

On ‎16‎/‎06‎/‎2014 at 3:14 PM, elzin said:

 

Edited June 28, 2018 by John Potts