S04.E11: If Not For Hope

[taanja]

On 1/13/2019 at 5:02 PM, WatchrTina said:

I could not tell who it was that Brianna had drawn that caused Lizzy to have a negative reaction.  Was it Stephen Bonnet?  If so, how would Lizzy know what he looked like?  She never saw him.  Or was it supposed to be various versions of Roger?  If it was, I couldn’t tell.

Lord John Grey having sex in the pantry with another guest is completely out of character for this careful, closeted, 18th century gay man.   s

Hey pregnant Brianna, whatcha got in that wine glass?  Were the effects of consuming alcohol while pregnant known in the 1960s?  I sure hope Bree is following the no-more-than-one-glass-of-wine-a-day rule.

 

Impressionists painting/drawing wasn't even a thing yet. Eugène Delacroix (The "grandfather" of impressionistic painting, wasn't even born until 1798) So--- To someone like Lizzy -- that painting would look like it came from an insane person-- and yes --- It was Bonnett coming at her (Bree) in many different angles. Like the way she sees him in her nightmares.

I love the character John Grey. I only ever read the first book long ago so not sure how he is portrayed -- but he comes across to this viewer as someone who is careful, pragmatic and most deff closeted. But I liked that scene because even the most careful person is careless sometimes. Plus the later scene of Bree trying to blackmail him with her knowledge of his sexuality would have played out differently. And I liked that scene and I liked the way Lord John kind of turned the tables so to speak on her. The look on her face when she realized what he was saying was priceless.

Loved all the scenes with Bree and Jocasta. Those were just golden.

No. Drinking and being pregnant were not taboo yet. Doctor's even still advised woman to have a glass of beer or wine to relax them. Woman were still taking aspirin while preggers. They were still smoking. (I believe the warning labels about the dangers to the unborn child on cigarette packages didn't even exist until the 2000's?) So no. Bree as a child of the 50's 60's and early 70's wouldn't think twice about drinking while pregnant.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I'd be hard pressed to tell you what happened this season, other than Roger being taken and Brianna getting raped.

As someone who has not read this book I have a completely different perspective on the season and have found it to be probably the most satisfying of all four, tied with the previous one. I really enjoyed all the time traveling with Bree and Roger, and Bree's reunion with her mother and meeting her father. Not crazy about Bonnet but, whatever - there's always a bad guy. I enjoyed Jamie and Claire setting up their new home and their route in getting there, and the dealings with the local Indians. Throw in the stuff that happened at River Run and the return of Murtagh and I'd say quite a lot happened this season.

[tennisgurl]

Poor Roger, this whole plot is like "Roger and the Terrible Horrible No Good Very Bad Day." Hopefully they find the poor guy soon, this is just depressing, and getting more and more depressing every time we cut back to him. 

Cracked up at all the eligible bachelors circling around Bree like some kind of colonial version of The Bachelorette. Poor fellows, its hard to beat John, dude has the title, the accent, the face, is all gentlemanly and such, its hard to beat. Well, this is going to be hilarious to explain to Jamie and Claire when they meet up again! "Hi dad! You know your former jailer/friend/guy who has a massive raving crush on you? Well, guess who is gonna be your son in law! But only until we find my actual kind of husband from the future who you and my cousin who asked me to marry him sold to Native Americans because my maid is bad at interpreting body language, because thats a normal thing people do for some fucking reason in this time period, and we can hopefully do all of that before my kid pops out!" 

Bree blackmailing John was pretty awful, she is lucky that he is a good guy, who isnt one to hold a grudge. I guess desperation and hormones will do messed up things to you. I dont know if she would have done it though, but even if she wouldn’t, it was still terrible. She should know that forcing someone to marry you, even if it’s just for a short time, is a horrible thing to do. On the other hand, I am really enjoying Bree and Aunt Jocasta so far, she is very much a realist, and says a lot of the stuff that Bree probably needs to hear in this time period. 

The conversation between Claire and Jamie about his feelings of jealousy towards Frank and his guilt about everything he did with Roger and Bree was great, Sam absolutely killed it. He just looked so lost and so haunted, like he was going through all the events in his head over and over, trying to make it so he didnt make all those bad choices. I also felt bad for Young Ian when he was asking Claire over and over if she was mad at Jamie. He was probably worried that she was mad at him too for his part in this whole debacle. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by tennisgurl

[ruby24]

It's funny- the show and the writers obviously love Lord John, so I wonder if they'll write him in at some point in the next two seasons. If I'm not mistaken, after this book we don't see him again until Book 7 (at which point he becomes practically a co-lead), but I bet the show would want to have him show up if they can manage it.

[toolazy]

4 hours ago, ruby24 said:

It's funny- the show and the writers obviously love Lord John, so I wonder if they'll write him in at some point in the next two seasons. If I'm not mistaken, after this book we don't see him again until Book 7 (at which point he becomes practically a co-lead), but I bet the show would want to have him show up if they can manage it.

That would be okay with me. He's one of my favorite characters.

[Atlanta]

I feel like Lord John gets too much time in later books, taking the focus off C and J or B and R, but David Berry is pretty.

I understand why Bree did what she did. How can she gracefully turn down Pip's proposal? She, with her inner Machiavellian MacKenzie, turned to an old friend of her dad's. Can't remember when she finds out about Willie. They do meet later and Will thinks she's hot. 

Edited January 16, 2019 by Atlanta

[AD55]

5 hours ago, ruby24 said:

It's funny- the show and the writers obviously love Lord John, so I wonder if they'll write him in at some point in the next two seasons. If I'm not mistaken, after this book we don't see him again until Book 7 (at which point he becomes practically a co-lead), but I bet the show would want to have him show up if they can manage it.

No (particular) need to write him into the next seasons. He has his own series, which I'd love to see adapted.

[nodorothyparker]

Lord John is off page all of book 5 and most of book 6 except as a regular letter writer.  He appears again late in the sixth book when Bree and Roger run into him with William in Wilmington, which is where it's immediately obvious to everyone except William who William is because he looks so much like Jamie and Bree.  So anything between now and then would have to be wholly invented.

I like John a lot but his own books where he's mostly interacting with characters who are dryly humorous at best can be a real chore after a point.  But I'm only good for about so much military stuff before I zone out and there's a lot of it there.

[domina89]

On 1/15/2019 at 11:52 AM, Atlanta said:

Can Pip give me that sapphire? I love the blue stone.

Every time I see gemstones on this show now I assume someone will need them in the future to go through the stones.  Those were so prominently displayed that for a second I thought Geillis might jump out from behind a curtain and grab them.

Edited January 16, 2019 by domina89

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 1/15/2019 at 1:23 PM, FnkyChkn34 said:

But isn't John willing to wait until the last minute and only marry her if Roger doesn't return before the kid is born? The other men would have expected a wedding ASAP.  

Maybe I'm not entirely following the chain of comments, but she wouldn't need to marry and then divorce John. He understands and will only marry her if Roger is dead or gone for good. 

Or if Roger rejects her. Yes, exactly. When she first propositioned John, it was with more of an expectation he'd actually marry her, though, because she was taking Aunt Jocasta's advice and giving up hope on Roger until John encouraged her otherwise.

[AD55]

4 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Lord John is off page all of book 5 and most of book 6 except as a regular letter writer.  He appears again late in the sixth book when Bree and Roger run into him with William in Wilmington, which is where it's immediately obvious to everyone except William who William is because he looks so much like Jamie and Bree.  So anything between now and then would have to be wholly invented.

I like John a lot but his own books where he's mostly interacting with characters who are dryly humorous at best can be a real chore after a point.  But I'm only good for about so much military stuff before I zone out and there's a lot of it there.

You have a good point. They probably wouldn't lend themselves well to adaptation. 

[Electruck]

On 1/15/2019 at 9:39 AM, caws 727 said:

 

On 1/15/2019 at 8:52 AM, Atlanta said:

Does David Berry not remind you of a young John Taylor (Duran Duran)?

I kept thinking, he would make a superb Vampire Lestat if they ever did a remake...

 

This! Every first time he appears in an episode I think “what is that vampire doing in Outlander?” He’s so pale in comparison. Definitely not outside doing peasant work.

[TaurusRose]

Why are Murtaugh's cheeks so red?  They're damn distracting.

[LoveLeigh]

I am not enjoying this season at all. The pace is excruciatingly slow and at first I liked the slow pacing, but it crossed over to becoming boring. Why did they need 13 episodes for this season? It could have been shaved down to 6. 

I had to watch this episode in stages, and it took me 4 sittings to complete it. With all the other great stuff on, I sort of lost interest in this show. The only part I find beautiful are the sets and costumes. 

[LoveLeigh]

23 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Why are Murtaugh's cheeks so red?  They're damn distracting.

The actor may have rosacea.

[LadyBrochTuarach]

On 2019-01-18 at 10:54 AM, DakotaLavender said:

I am not enjoying this season at all. The pace is excruciatingly slow and at first I liked the slow pacing, but it crossed over to becoming boring. Why did they need 13 episodes for this season? It could have been shaved down to 6. 

I had to watch this episode in stages, and it took me 4 sittings to complete it. With all the other great stuff on, I sort of lost interest in this show. The only part I find beautiful are the sets and costumes. 

Unfortunately, I wholly have to agree with you. I haven’t even had the energy to post in the forums this season because I’m just so bored! 

There were a couple great episodes, and I understand that there is some setup/background story to lay out. But the entire front half of the season is a slow slog to superior levels of boredom, and these last episodes are dragging out now as well. It’s hard to watch. I liked that there are a few surprises as a book reader, especially with the Murtagh story line change, but I’m concerned that J&C storyline is now being overshadowed with Bree/Roger and Murtagh/Regulator stories. Just thinking about down the road, and how on earth it will play out. 

My sister in law only read the first book, and I’ve read all of them twice. She caught up on seasons  2 and 3 the week before season 4 aired. She was telling me last night that she’s so disappointed she wasted all her time binge watching two entire seasons in 7 days for this “boring and frankly crappy season.” 

A lot happens, but it’s SO slow. Most stuff could have been cut, shortened, and some J&C focused on a bit more than they have been. I don’t know what they’ll do next season, but I’ll take all my qualms and queries over to the other thread later. 

I’m nervous for tomorrow’s episode as I feel like it’s going to be a let down again. As a book reader I didn’t much enjoy this season, and I don’t know if I’ll be able to stick through the coming ones. 

 

This episode for me, was a bit irritating. Not much progress on the way to find Roger, Bree harshly blackmailing LJG. And LJG carelessly getting it on in the  kitchen pantry. 

Maybe it was done purposefully by show writers so that Bree has visuals (although this was clearly consensual) after her attack/rape by Bonett? I don’t know. It seems like an odd change to make from the book, and out of character for LJG, which most of you have touched on already. 

 

Otherwise I liked Jocatsa this ep especially  🤷🏽‍♀️ I think the casting was spot on and Doyle does an EXCELLENT job. 

 

Otherwise, give me a show about Fergus and Marsali, and I’m good to go. 

Why aren’t they living at the ridge yet? Don’t they move there in this book? Or is it the next. I’m getting confused. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by LadyBrochTuarach

[shelen]

I completely understand why some viewers find this season a bit boring and slow.  I, however, see it as a building block, foundation if you will, to the rest of the series.  They're in the New World now and it's a long way to the action of the Revolutionary War.

Drums of Autumn is a bit like watching Jamie building their cabin.  First the floor (coming to North Carolina), then the walls (Young Ian, Bree and Roger's arrival surrounding everyone  with drama) and the furniture (the Mohawk, Murtaugh, Marsali and Fergus, Roger/not Roger's baby).

I think the last two episodes will have a good deal of action in tying up the story line.  I think the PTB have done a pretty decent job of streamlining the story to show the heart of the book.

[LadyBrochTuarach]

2 hours ago, shelen said:

I completely understand why some viewers find this season a bit boring and slow.  I, however, see it as a building block, foundation if you will, to the rest of the series.  They're in the New World now and it's a long way to the action of the Revolutionary War.

Drums of Autumn is a bit like watching Jamie building their cabin.  First the floor (coming to North Carolina), then the walls (Young Ian, Bree and Roger's arrival surrounding everyone  with drama) and the furniture (the Mohawk, Murtaugh, Marsali and Fergus, Roger/not Roger's baby).

I think the last two episodes will have a good deal of action in tying up the story line.  I think the PTB have done a pretty decent job of streamlining the story to show the heart of the book.

I guess for me knowing how much material is left, and fitting it into two episodes. Then again the same thing happened with season 3, and it worked okay regardless of some material being cut. 

 

I agree that its almost like a foundation season, and that makes sense as a book reader knowing the later story. Personally I find the next two books a slow read, especially the never-ending-day-that-takes-forever-to-read-and-hours-to-get-through and so makes me think the next season will be the same as this.  I understand there was a lot of foundation to get through, but it just seems like it could have been done at lot faster than it did! 

Edited January 20, 2019 by LadyBrochTuarach

[Kim0820]

Of course Roger gets captured again.  Anything to drag it out, lol.

If you buy a man, why mistreat him - supposedly you bought him because you had some use for them.  They even let the other guy die.  So far, other than the grandmotherly medical woman and the girl with her, the Native Americans are portrayed in a very negative light.  Interesting tease that Roger, enjoying the shower, might have gone back.

It seems Brianna loves Roger most when he’s not around.  But be together one day and night, and they have a fight and a break-up.  This is not a great love story, but I don’t suppose the author meant it to be.

If Lizzie made an honest mistake, so did Jamie.  It was hardly a mistake even.  Lizzie sees a man manhandling her mistress and mistress comes home raped.  Jamie had no way to know there were two men involved, either.

Brianna’s handling slavery with more aplomb than Claire or even Jamie.   At least she is willing to stay there at the house.

The "motherhood is all" stuff is very 20th/21st century.  Up until the 90s, mothers did not protest so much about how the children are the most important thing in the universe and come before everything else - My mother was of the last stay at home generation, and and neither she nor other mothers talked like this about the holiness of motherhood.  (In fact, my mother complained quite a bit, lol).  

There was no reason Claire couldn’t tell Jamie that Brianna had spent the night with Roger too.  They had the handfasting excuse, if Jamie’s 18th century mind can’t wrap around premarital sex for a daughter.  But he's already shown that he can get some 20th century concepts about women, and didn't complain that Brianna wasn't married yet as for example, Murtagh expects she must be, as she would in the 18th century at her age, and understood enough to tell him that women could do a lot more in Claire/Brianna's time.  In 1970, the sexual revolution/pill was pretty new and Roe v. Wade was 3 years away and women were still drinking and smoking while pregnant.

Handfasting

Quote

The Scottish Hebrides, particularly in the Isle of Skye, show some records of a 'Handfast" or "left-handed" marriage taking in the late 1600s, where the Gaelic scholar, Martin Martin, notes "It was an ancient custom in the Isles that a man take a maid as his wife and keep her for the space of a year without marrying her; and if she pleased him all the while, he married her at the end of the year and legitimatised her children; but if he did not love her, he returned her to her parents."[11

It does seem to have been gone by the 18th century though.  DG and show seem to be pretending it still exists yet changing its terms for convenience.  With Marsali and Fergus, it was not in effect until consummation; for Brianna and Roger, it has no effect at all apparently.