Holiday Baking Championship - General Discussion

[kathyk24]

34 minutes ago, Ms.Lulu said:

I was pleasantly surprised that Dru won. It seemed clear Carla wanted Aisha to win.

Aaron seemed like a sure thing until the cracker cake.

Aisha should have won IMO. Her cake looked better than Dru's and had appropriate flavors. Chocolate banana and passion fruit don't go together. I thought Dru's cake looked ugly. Nancy wanted him to win.

[mojoween]

Dru’s fire hydrant was not a better-looking cake than Aisha’s pretty Caribbean holiday.  Even though she continued to call her cakes “her”, based on what was shown I thought for sure she would win.

I do feel this was the best season I’ve seen in quite some time between the bakes, the bakers, and Jesse.

[libgirl2]

5 hours ago, mlp said:

I hated seeing Bill leave but his nerves got the best of him or something and he fell apart.  I can't argue with the decision.  Dru was my other favorite so I was delighted that he won.  

Love Jesse.

I was happy that he won as well and very sad when Bill left. 

I thought for sure Aisha would win but after thinking about it this morning, while her cake was lovely, she went with the Caribbean theme again, and did not go out of her comfort zone. The judges also commented that it was dry. 

Aaron dropped the bomb on the halfway decorated cake which (and I agree with Nancy) did not look like it had anything to do with the holidays. Jessica's cake looked odd. It reminded me of a Dalek not of Paris. 

Overall, everyone did a really good job and they all struck me as a good group. I really enjoyed this season very much. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by libgirl2

[rlc]

The finale felt very fair to me. During the first challenge, I said to myself ‘if Bill isn’t on the bottom with that thick crust and unfinished tart, the fix is in’. During the second challenge, I said to myself ‘if Bill is pushed through with that unfinished mess, the fix is in’. 
 

I would have been happy with Dru, Aisha, or Aaron winning, but it felt incredibly clear to me that Dru was the winner. Sure- bananas might not have much to do with the Swiss alps, but neither do Swedish butter cookies! Congrats to Dru.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mojoween said:

Dru’s fire hydrant was not a better-looking cake than Aisha’s pretty Caribbean holiday.  Even though she continued to call her cakes “her”, based on what was shown I thought for sure she would win.

I do feel this was the best season I’ve seen in quite some time between the bakes, the bakers, and Jesse.

I was getting giant dinosaur egg vibes, but it did sort of also look like a mountain peak. I also thought Aishia was winning since the judges made such a big deal over her flavors matching her theme better than Dru's, but I guess that was misdirection. At any rate, it couldn't have been clearer who the top two were going to be, and I'm fine with the winner.

[CheshireCat]

Why did they edit in so many of Nancy's comments? She is the weakest of the judges and, in my opinion, has the least constructive to contribute. A lot of what she said during this episode made me want to tell her to go bake these things herself in that time and then comment. And how many times did we get a version of "but is it holiday-ish?
I'd much rather have had more of Duff and Carla.

The first challenge turned out much better than I expected it to. I thought Aaron actually had the best looking cake and I did not think that Dru's pie looked holiday-ish. At least not these holidays. It had hearts on it for crying out loud. It's not Valentine's Day yet.

Nancy was really trying to find something to nitpick on about Jessica's pie, didn't she? Duff had just said to Aaron that achieving height is difficult with buttercream and what does Miss "I'm-not-a-baker-and-likely-couldn't-do-what-any-of-you-do" say to Jessica? The tree should have been more of a center piece. Did Nancy listen?
I thought it was weird that Jessica's center was underbaked. I thought it sounded like the pie crust was stuck on and crumbly when she scraped it off. 🤷‍♀️

The bake-off was actually a nice challenge, however, it was obviously not enough time.

For some reason, cakes in finales of baking shows keep leaving me underwhelmed. Whether it's this show or one of the bake-offs. I feel like so often, what the bakers do before is better.

I thought Dru's win was absolutely predictable. Once Nancy had taken a liking to him, it seemed that no matter what he did, he could do no wrong. Is Nancy involved in the magazine the winner gets a feature in and therefore, who she wants to win, wins?
The colors were nice but since when are snowly mountains blue? That mountain on top was way too massive and should have been smaller. If it had been, he could have used more of a grey-ish tone to represent the stone of the stone Swiss alps instead of blue.

I believe the cookies were assigned (right?), so it's not Dru's fault but I did a quick Google search for Swiss cookies and yeah, there are recipes. So why did they go with Swedish butter cookies? Makes no sense.

Aishia's cake topper was incredible. I understand why her string of lights was so chunky, still, I wish it had been less so. Other than that, I really liked her cake and to borrow from Nancy, it was holiday inside and out.
 

 

[Jillybean]

Aisha met the challenge more successfully than Dru did, so I was disappointed she didn't win. It seems as though the challenge/theme is only given credence when they want to hold it against someone. I thought she was overall the best as she was very consistent with her bakes/flavors and decorating.

I really liked Aaron and thought he stood out as an early favorite. I think Jessica was lucky that Bill crapped the bed so spectacularly for the bake-off.

Going back to some comments from last week's ep, Bill had mentioned that he and his partner eat halva spread on matzoh and that's why he incorporated matzoh into his cake.  If he truly is a home baker without formal training, he is very impressive despite the fact that his mugging for the camera became more exaggerated with each episode.

[CrazyInAlabama]

I think the biggest factor in Aisia losing to Dru was that her cake was dry.    I didn't like Carla comment that the giant dragon's egg/mountain should have had peaks, if it did, I bet the peaks would have fallen over.     The bakers need more time for the finale pieces.  

Actually Dru's 'mountain' looked like a monster would hatch out of it, like the Godzilla monster movies.  

Edited December 20, 2022 by CrazyInAlabama

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, Jillybean said:

I really liked Aaron and thought he stood out as an early favorite.

Aaron's edit over the season was sort of odd. Early on, he really did seem to be the favorite; they were always very enthusiastic over what he did and he was being presented as kind of a wunderkind. Then he seemed to fade into the background as they focused more on the others who ended up in the final 5, but his skills didn't seem to lessen any. Strange.

[Joan van Snark]

2 hours ago, rlc said:

Sure- bananas might not have much to do with the Swiss alps, but neither do Swedish butter cookies!

EXACTLY!  What is in the world does SWEDISH have to do with the Swiss Alps?????  Was that just someone in production making a mistake that no one noticed????  And I agree with Drew, the Swiss are known for making the finest chocolates, and Im sure they use banana and passion fruit in some of the candies they make.  His cake flavors sounded amazing to me, and from what the judges said, sounds like it was.  Wasn't the biggest fan of his missile silo, but none of the others blew me away so I was good with the win.

[libgirl2]

58 minutes ago, Joan van Snark said:

EXACTLY!  What is in the world does SWEDISH have to do with the Swiss Alps?????  Was that just someone in production making a mistake that no one noticed????  And I agree with Drew, the Swiss are known for making the finest chocolates, and Im sure they use banana and passion fruit in some of the candies they make.  His cake flavors sounded amazing to me, and from what the judges said, sounds like it was.  Wasn't the biggest fan of his missile silo, but none of the others blew me away so I was good with the win.

It probably came down to taste in the end. Which cake would you eat again? His won out. It had just enough holiday on it. 

You could see how emotional he was when they announced his name. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by libgirl2

[susannot]

1 hour ago, tracyscott76 said:

Aaron's edit over the season was sort of odd. Early on, he really did seem to be the favorite; they were always very enthusiastic over what he did and he was being presented as kind of a wunderkind. Then he seemed to fade into the background as they focused more on the others who ended up in the final 5, but his skills didn't seem to lessen any. Strange.

Young Aaron is phenomenally talented and cute as a bug.  I'm sure we haven't seen the last of him on The Food Network.

[Cheyanne11]

I'm happy for Dru, but, honestly, any of the five winning would've been OK with me, as they were all good bakers and nice competitors.  I liked that Dru gave everyone what he thought they would want for the themes rather than try and screw someone over.

Have to say, though: all that for only $25K?!?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Cheyanne11 said:

Have to say, though: all that for only $25K?!?

And a feature in Food Network Magazine, don't forget!

They did also get what appeared to be quite a large pile of brand-name baking dishes or something, which I don't remember them getting before.

[dleighg]

14 hours ago, DEL901 said:

Swiss alps with Swedish butter cookies.  Someone on the show is geography challenged.

I had to laugh at that. My best friend in elementary school (and still a good friend) was Swiss (Swiss-born parents, spoke Swiss-German at home, etc.) and when kids back in the day learned that they wanted to know why she wasn't tall and blond. 

[Frost]

What are "Black and White" cookies?  Are they generic Oreos?  The initial graphic of Aaron's skyscrapers and the black rectangles that actually ended up on the cake were drastically different!  I am confused about his time management.  Surely those cakes took a while to bake and cool.  Why didn't he spend time cutting out his skyscrapers?  His cake would have looked so dramatic.

[dleighg]

1 minute ago, Frost said:

What are "Black and White" cookies?  Are they generic Oreos? 

No, they're a NYC treat that are frosted in black and white:

[Guest]

Just now, dleighg said:

No, they're a NYC treat that are frosted in black and white:

Made famous in a Seinfeld episode:

[libgirl2]

41 minutes ago, tracyscott76 said:

And a feature in Food Network Magazine, don't forget!

They did also get what appeared to be quite a large pile of brand-name baking dishes or something, which I don't remember them getting before.

They give those away on the Gingerbread one too. FN must have some kind of deal going with the company. 

29 minutes ago, tracyscott76 said:

Made famous in a Seinfeld episode:

I only know them from Seinfeld and wouldn't have a clue how they should taste, so I get that he wasn't sure what they were. 

[CrazyInAlabama]

3 hours ago, tracyscott76 said:

And a feature in Food Network Magazine, don't forget!

They did also get what appeared to be quite a large pile of brand-name baking dishes or something, which I don't remember them getting before.

The baking dish set is the new Rubbermaid oven to table, etc. dishes.   Reviews aren't wonderful. 

Aaron's 'Black and White' cookies were totally wrong, the black icing wasn't black.    They were brown and white on TV, and weren't as dark as the actual black decorations.     He didn't have a clue about how to do the cookies correctly.     My local grocery store has them this time of year, and they are black and white icing.  

I think the passion fruit, banana sounds like it would suit Aishia's cake more than Dru's Swiss Dragon's Egg cake.  

Edited December 20, 2022 by CrazyInAlabama

[proserpina65]

Oh, fuck no!  Aisha was robbed.  No way in hell did Dru's cake flavors have any resemblance to Christmas in the Swiss Alps, and his decorating sucked.  Not as badly as Aaron's and Jessica's but still, that looked like a rocket at best and definitely NOT like a mountain.

 

[libgirl2]

3 minutes ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

The baking dish set is the new Rubbermaid oven to table, etc. dishes.   Reviews aren't wonderful. 

Aaron's 'Black and White' cookies were totally wrong.    They were brown and white on TV, and weren't as dark as the actual black decorations.     He didn't have a clue about how to do the cookies correctly.     My local grocery store has them this time of year.  

I'm not sure what brand is the set from the other show. Don't you think these people would already have a ton of baking dishes? And really good ones too? 

[DEL901]

1 hour ago, Cheyanne11 said:

I'm happy for Dru, but, honestly, any of the five winning would've been OK with me, as they were all good bakers and nice competitors.  I liked that Dru gave everyone what he thought they would want for the themes rather than try and screw someone over.

Have to say, though: all that for only $25K?!?

Yes, the size of the prize has bugged me for a while.  Even the Holiday Cookie Challenge give out $10,000 for a one day competition.   

[libgirl2]

Just now, DEL901 said:

Yes, the size of the prize has bugged me for a while.  Even the Holiday Cookie Challenge give out $10,000 for a one day competition.   

FN seems to chintz on money prizes. I give credit to GGG, people can win a good chunk of change on there.

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Joan van Snark said:

His cake flavors sounded amazing to me

Banana and chocolate and passionfruit sound fine by themselves or just two of them but all three together sound nauseating and not the least bit like something you'd get in a box of good Swiss chocolates to me.

2 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

It probably came down to taste in the end. Which cake would you eat again? His won out. It had just enough holiday on it.

I'd never eat Dru's cake once, let alone again, whereas Aisha's sounded really good.  I don't think a little dry is a problem if the flavors are good enough.

11 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

I only know them from Seinfeld and wouldn't have a clue how they should taste, so I get that he wasn't sure what they were. 

I had them once and didn't think they were all that special or particularly distinctive tasting.  They just have a particular look, imo.

 

[tennisgurl]

I guessed that Dru would be the winner early on in the season, the judges obviously loved him from day one. I personally preferred Aisha, I thought that her bakes were more interesting and festive, but I like Dru as well, he's certainly a deserving winner. Everyone by the end were such good bakers and are seem quite lovely, I would be happy with anyone. Except for poor Bill after that awful bake, that was unfortunate, he's normally so much better than that. 

I swear I thought that that mountain was a dinosaur egg. It was very cute and holliday-ish but it also looked like it was about to hatch.

I liked this season a lot, all of the contestants were good (most of the shameless muggers left early and even they weren't too bad), fun to watch and very talented, it always put me in a festive mood and Jessie is a great host. He has this wide eyed boyish enthusiasm that really gets you in the holiday mood. 

Happy Holidays everyone!

[Madding crowd]

I like Nancy and think she has the right to her likes and dislikes just like the other judges. All of the holiday baking and decorating shows require holiday themes, I don’t know why this would be any different.  In general it seems like Carla talks about the bake in general ( too raw or well done), and matching the required theme, Duff talks about texture and combining ingredients and Nancy talks about holiday themes and whether they can taste featured ingredients. It works for me.

I expected either Dru or Aisha to win and it seemed like his tasted better. I do wish they had more time.

[libgirl2]

Dru made me smile but just about all of the contestants did. They really got an exceptional group this season. 

[Jess14]

I thought Aisha’s design was better than Dru’s, but I was ok with Dru winning. I hate a dry cake, so I think that was enough to seal the win for him, given that his design wasn’t bad. Also, I know Aisha wanted the Caribbean theme, but I actually think she would’ve been better off getting something else and showing some more range. 

I really liked Aaron, but I was surprised by how rough his cake was. NYC has so many iconic sites that it seems like it would’ve been an easier challenge for him. I was also surprised by Jessica’s cake. I thought it flat out looked bad - nothing screamed Paris at all to me. I wish they would give them an extra couple of hours. 

Overall, it was a satisfying season. I liked most of the bakers and found almost all of the eliminations to be non-controversial.

[libgirl2]

37 minutes ago, Jess14 said:

I thought Aisha’s design was better than Dru’s, but I was ok with Dru winning. I hate a dry cake, so I think that was enough to seal the win for him, given that his design wasn’t bad. Also, I know Aisha wanted the Caribbean theme, but I actually think she would’ve been better off getting something else and showing some more range. 

 

That is what I said before. The woman can bake and decorate like mad, I would love to have seen her tackle Paris. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by libgirl2

[DEL901]

30 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

That is what I said before. The woman can bake and decorate like mad, I would love to have seen here tackle Paris. 

Dru tried to give everyone what they wanted so it would be an even playing field, but Aisha shouldn’t have asked for Caribbean again.  And while her hammock was impressive, and the decorations around the sides were festive, they were extremely simple.   I like her, but I th8nk Dru ea4ned the win based on flavours. 

[dleighg]

I thought Aisha's looked nice, but I'm always a bit put off by things that are theoretically edible but not meant to be eaten. Like using modeling chocolate a lot (which she also did on the cacti). No one is eating a modeling chocolate covered pretzel stick.

Edited December 20, 2022 by dleighg

[Rammchick]

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I had them once and didn't think they were all that special or particularly distinctive tasting.  They just have a particular look, imo.

It's a New York thing.  If you grew up there like I did, the black and white cookie has mythical status.  It's not just the icing, which is a particular thing in and of itself, but also the cookie is actually very cakelike.  If you've never had one like Aaron obviously didn't, you would never get the texture right.  This is a bit unfair considering that the other cookies were much less iconic.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jess14 said:

I was also surprised by Jessica’s cake. I thought it flat out looked bad - nothing screamed Paris at all to me. I wish they would give them an extra couple of hours.

I really wanted to see Jessica's Eiffel Tower, and literally said "aww" when it was clear that she had run out of time and wouldn't be able to do it. I wonder what she would have used to make it?

[libgirl2]

17 minutes ago, tracyscott76 said:

I really wanted to see Jessica's Eiffel Tower, and literally said "aww" when it was clear that she had run out of time and wouldn't be able to do it. I wonder what she would have used to make it?

She spent way to much time on the batter from what they showed us. 

[MerBearHou]

5 hours ago, susannot said:

Young Aaron is phenomenally talented and cute as a bug.  I'm sure we haven't seen the last of him on The Food Network.

Oh, I hope not!  Aaron was my favorite as 1-A with Bill as a very close 1-B.  

I loved Dru too so am delighted he won.  This was my favorite final group in ages.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

She spent way to much time on the batter from what they showed us. 

I think that was her inexperience showing (being a food stylist more than a professional baker). She said she hadn't made a cake this big before and didn't think ahead about the size of the mixing bowls she would need vs. the quantity of batter, so she ended up using that giant pan. That was why she spent so much time on it, because she had to mix all the wet and dry ingredients together in the pan by hand, and be careful not to slop it over the top.

It was unfortunate, but definitely a new kind of problem I hadn't seen on these shows before!

[CheshireCat]

8 hours ago, CrazyInAlabama said:

I think the biggest factor in Aisia losing to Dru was that her cake was dry. 

The question is, was it dry or was it just a cake without a moisture factor in it? The judges tend to call cakes that don't include that "dry" but I'm beginning to question if they really are dry. Same cakes are drier than others but that doesn't mean they're dry, dry.

 

6 hours ago, libgirl2 said:

It probably came down to taste in the end. Which cake would you eat again? His won out. It had just enough holiday on it.

I don't think that should be the deciding factor, though, as that is personal preference and has not necessarily something to do with the cake being good or not. I think the judges should look for balance of flavors, creativity in cake recipe and design, how well the flavors work and how well the recipe works and how well it works with the theme.

 

2 hours ago, DEL901 said:

Dru tried to give everyone what they wanted

I really liked that. I don't know if the contestants really have a choice or if that was scripted because the show realized that, just like the weird twists, the audience doesn't appreciate the meanness (for the lack of a better word). But overall, I enjoyed the twists and advantages this season and how they were handled.

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

I really liked that. I don't know if the contestants really have a choice or if that was scripted because the show realized that, just like the weird twists, the audience doesn't appreciate the meanness (for the lack of a better word). But overall, I enjoyed the twists and advantages this season and how they were handled.

The twists were not so bad as in the past. 

[2soon2tell]

3 hours ago, Rammchick said:

It's a New York thing.  If you grew up there like I did, the black and white cookie has mythical status.  It's not just the icing, which is a particular thing in and of itself, but also the cookie is actually very cakelike.  If you've never had one like Aaron obviously didn't, you would never get the texture right.  This is a bit unfair considering that the other cookies were much less iconic.

But he claimed he spent a fair amount of time there growing up. How do you spend time in the NY area and not know a black and white? He didn’t even get the shape right!

[Rammchick]

6 minutes ago, 2soon2tell said:

But he claimed he spent a fair amount of time there growing up. How do you spend time in the NY area and not know a black and white? He didn’t even get the shape right!

Good question.  Although when I grew up and when he grew up are two very different time periods! Maybe no one eats them as much anymore.  I don't know.

[Backwards999]

I really enjoyed this group of bakers and would've been happy with any of them winning. I thought Aisha's cake looked the best but dry cake is the worst imo.  So, I wasn't surprised that Dru won because his cake also looked like Christmas and tasted great.  I don't know why Aaron would cook cookies he's never made in the finale.  Plus, he clearly had to rush on the sky scrapers.  Jessica gave it her all but she struggled with time as she incorporated a lot of timely elements, making the cake, cutting the apples, making the macarons, etc.  Anyways, I look forward to seeing some of this seasons bakers on other shows. It is clear they got along well with each other, and they were so talented.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Backwards999

[GaT]

20 minutes ago, 2soon2tell said:

But he claimed he spent a fair amount of time there growing up. How do you spend time in the NY area and not know a black and white? He didn’t even get the shape right!

What I couldn't understand is how he could spend a few Christmas' in New York, & not do the most iconic symbol there, the tree at Rockefeller Center? When I saw his cake I was scratching my head because nothing about it said "holidays in New York"

[dleighg]

49 minutes ago, Rammchick said:

Maybe no one eats them as much anymore.  I don't know.

I live in the almost-exurbs of NYC and the local bagel shop/bakery has black-and-whites. I've never eaten one though. But they seem to still be popular.

[Joan van Snark]

2 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

I don't think that should be the deciding factor, though, as that is personal preference and has not necessarily something to do with the cake being good or not. I think the judges should look for balance of flavors, creativity in cake recipe and design, how well the flavors work and how well the recipe works and how well it works with the theme.

Well in this case, the praise for Dru's cake far exceeded the praise for any of the others.  Carla was asking for a go box and I think Nancy did her symphony hands thing.  I have made a banana chocolate cake from Rose Levy Berenbaum's  Cake Bible that is amazing so that is why I thought Dru's sounded so good.  I don't have a lot of experience with passionfruit but I think it is slightly tart which sounds like a good counterpoint to all the sweetness and richness.  I'm at a loss though, what sweet ingredients scream Switzerland other than chocolate and dairy?  

Honestly I wasn't really that thrilled with any of these finalists.  Usually there is at least one pro experienced baker that is really good at decorations that I love to watch.  Seems like the only one even close to that was Aaron and he is still very young.   None of these people really blew me away at all although they were all pleasant and nice.  I also thought there were a lot of weird and dumb challenge themes this season also.  I predict this will fade into one of the more forgettable seasons in time.

[Joan van Snark]

12 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

For some reason, cakes in finales of baking shows keep leaving me underwhelmed. Whether it's this show or one of the bake-offs. I feel like so often, what the bakers do before is better.

I think that makes it even more obvious that 5 hours is not enough time to construct a large high-end cake.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Backwards999 said:

I don't know why Aaron would cook cookies he's never made in the finale. 

Aaron was assigned the NYC theme by Dru, and the cookies came with the theme. He had no choice.

46 minutes ago, Joan van Snark said:

13 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

For some reason, cakes in finales of baking shows keep leaving me underwhelmed. Whether it's this show or one of the bake-offs. I feel like so often, what the bakers do before is better.

I think that makes it even more obvious that 5 hours is not enough time to construct a large high-end cake.

I know she wasn't super popular (though I loved her), but Maeve's winning sleigh ride cake in Season 2 was fantastic, and Jennifer's "6 geese-a-laying" cake in Season 4 was also great. They both had 5 hours, so it can be done...just not by everyone.

Edited December 21, 2022 by tracyscott76
Fixed a quotation mark placement

[Backwards999]

52 minutes ago, tracyscott76 said:

Aaron was assigned the NYC theme by Dru, and the cookies came with the theme. He had no choice.

Ok, I didn't know the cookies were also assigned to them.

[Backwards999]

3 hours ago, GaT said:

What I couldn't understand is how he could spend a few Christmas' in New York, & not do the most iconic symbol there, the tree at Rockefeller Center? When I saw his cake I was scratching my head because nothing about it said "holidays in New York"

That would've been a perfect topper for his cake.

[littlebennysmom]

On 12/8/2022 at 6:33 AM, libgirl2 said:

Last night I was watching GGG which had a special dessert episode. The one woman looked (and sounded) very familiar. It was Sarah from HBC season 6. She always had all the "cute little" decorations and at times was annoying. 

Only sometimes?  Wasn't she the pistaaaaaachio lady?  Just torturous.

14 hours ago, rlc said:

The finale felt very fair to me. During the first challenge, I said to myself ‘if Bill isn’t on the bottom with that thick crust and unfinished tart, the fix is in’. During the second challenge, I said to myself ‘if Bill is pushed through with that unfinished mess, the fix is in’. 
 

I would have been happy with Dru, Aisha, or Aaron winning, but it felt incredibly clear to me that Dru was the winner. Sure- bananas might not have much to do with the Swiss alps, but neither do Swedish butter cookies! Congrats to Dru.

 Why did none of the judges mention the crust was 3x thicker than it should have been?